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-   -   CORK - 5 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/259153-cork-5-a.html)

gaelgeoir 9th Jan 2007 09:36

CORK - 5
 
A number of posts regarding transatlantic service from Cork have appeared here over the past months and have usually combined fanciful ideas with wild speculation.

I suggest that Ulick McEvaddy's comments following his recent appointment to the board of Knock Airport could provide a useful reality check to those (Rebel) wishful thinkers. He is hoping for a 2008 launch- beginning with charters, which are permitted in the current Ireland/U.S. bilateral, as indeed they are for Cork.

I don't think there is any point in continuing to blame the bilateral for Cork's inability to develop transatlantic charters when you look at the huge volume of flights of this category from almost every U.K. city.


Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...246248&page=17

CCR 9th Jan 2007 10:19

Gaelqeoir,
Chartered transatlantic services is fine for Knock as the traffic would largely be tourist based.
Cork is the second most industialised region in the Republic of Ireland and needs scheduled transatlantic services. Given that they are already successful from Shannon (and from Belfast as of last year), it's a no brainer that they would be successful from Cork.
However Cork has 2 disadvantages, a relatively short runway and the current pathetic US bilateral agreement. Once those 2 obstacles are cleared, transatlantic scheduled services will operate from Cork.

ryan2000 9th Jan 2007 13:15

Cork US servcies
 
Charters to Orlando might work but charters to JFK or BOS will not sell as people want flexibility. 757's and 767's should be OK for East Coast operations but the big question is can Cork and Shannon both sustain year round transatlantic flights.

My gut feeling is that in an open skies situation Cork will continue to flounder in relation to US services. For instance the new terminal has no area that pre US Immigration checks can be carried out.

Are the CAA willing to provide the level of marketing support that Delta, Continental or indeed Aerlingus will look for?

Can a wide body jet park at the new terminal or will passengers commence their journey across the pond with a long walk in the rain to stand
14?

Furthermore Cork people's support for their airport is very fickle. They're all for direct services but will then drive to Shannon and fly on a low cost Ryanair flight in order to save a few euro.

It's going to take vision and hard work to get a US service up and running from Cork. Time will tell if the upbeat noises emerging from the airport in recent weeks will amount to anything.

840 9th Jan 2007 14:17

EI-RB

They used to operate Cork-Brimingham, but pulled out when Aer Arann went onto it.

Looking at their bases, they might consider Exeter (there's currently no service to the English South-West) or Norwich (Further from Stansted than you'd think), but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

Charlie Roy 9th Jan 2007 14:30

EI-RB

Recently I emailed Flybe and suggested they introduce Glasgow to Cork. This was their reply:


Thank you for your mail, and suggested new route.

At present we have no plans to start this route, and it is not high on our 'may be' list. We are however looking at developing our operations from Glasgow, and Cork will still be one of the destinations we will be considering. It will however be one of several, and new capacity will be limited so I can give no indication at this time if or when Cork might make the cut.

brian_dromey 9th Jan 2007 17:01

Singapore Airlines @ ORK
 
Just thought I'd mention that Singapore Airlines now offer through serivce SIN and byond. Online booking is also available. Fares are roughly 1200 rtn. Not too bad. Now that I think about it Ive noticed billboard ads for singapore airlines around the City from time to time.

Could this be a "toe in the water" do to speak for SQ? Certainly at DUB, whatever about ORK or SNN.

Still its nice to see that ORK is becomming better and better connected into the global alliances. Codeshares with both BA/oneworld and AA at LHR. Along with SQ. There is also an option to LHR, as EI have a strong relationship with KL/NW and Skyteam @ AMS as well!

one
world brought few benfits to ORK and now that EI have left the connections ahve become much better, I feel. I still feel that BD could make a 2x daily service to LHR work tho...

en2r 9th Jan 2007 18:52

Glasgow-Cork
 
Any chance of Fly Globespan operating Glasgow-Cork? They already have a significant presence at Glasgow and the sector time woul be relatively short so could they fit it in? It would also feed onto their longhaul operations from Glasgow

MarkD 9th Jan 2007 19:11

re: LCY - Q400 is more the beast you're looking for, 360kt and LCY certified. The problem is the only operator in these parts, Flybe, will be busy sucking down BA Connect routes for the next while so how likely is it they are coming calling in the near future.

en2r 9th Jan 2007 23:40

Cork Debt
 
Has anyone heard anything about the debt issue with regard to the new terminal. They seem to be dragging it out as long as they can. Cork cannot survive in this limbo forever. I'd say there are two possible scenarios. Either they are trying to wait until after the election to sadle Cork with massive debt that it will be struggling to pay for the next 20-30 years, or else they will make the announcement just before the election that it will be debt free, trying to buy votes(like they've been doing at Shannon for years). Either way it looks like they'll be in limbo for a while yet.

CCR 10th Jan 2007 10:13

I hope Cork is not saddled with the terminal debt otherwise there will be little hope for much needed investment in the runways, parallel taxiways and CAT 111 navigation approach equipment.

en2r 11th Jan 2007 20:43

Diversions
 
I've just been looking at Cork airport website arrivals and departures boards and in a surprise change of fortunes Madrid-Dublin and Rome-Dublin seem to have been diverted to Cork. However they are both scheduled to fly on to Dublin at 23.55. Will they fly light or will the passengers just sit on the tarmac in Cork until the weather improves at Dublin

ryan2000 11th Jan 2007 22:08

Not weather diversions, it's a result of delays and diversions at Cork last night due to crosswinds. The MAD ORK and FCO ORK flights were cancelled today and the Dublin flights routed through Cork instead.

Remember the geniuses that designed Cork Airport decreed that the main runway should run at right angles to the prevailing winds. That is why tens of thousands of passengers have been diverted over the last 45 winters. 25/07 needs to be extended but I for one won't be holding my breath!

en2r 11th Jan 2007 22:32


Originally Posted by ryan2000 (Post 3063557)
Not weather diversions, it's a result of delays and diversions at Cork last night due to crosswinds. The MAD ORK and FCO ORK flights were cancelled today and the Dublin flights routed through Cork instead.

Remember the geniuses that designed Cork Airport decreed that the main runway should run at right angles to the prevailing winds. That is why tens of thousands of passengers have been diverted over the last 45 winters. 25/07 needs to be extended but I for one won't be holding my breath!

Thanks for the info. I thought it was odd alright when no other flights were diverted from Dublin. This has been just one of many days of diversions. How many more are to come over the next month?? Extending 25/07 will be tricky. It is as close to the Kinsale road as possible at one end, and theres another road at the other end. Unless you build a tunnel under the runway like there is at Amsterdam.

840 11th Jan 2007 23:07

The road on the western end isn't much of a consideration. It's fairly minor and could just be routed around the perimeter of any extension. Of more interest is the fact that there's the remains of a ring fort down there. Extending the runway would miss it, but it could be a bit of a pain for a construction site.

On the eastern end, the Kinsale road would probably have to go below in a tunnel. I've noted before that the access road to the airport takes an unnecessary dip and then rises to meet the roundabout. It makes me wonder if someone has thought of lowering the level of the roundabout.

There are a few other issues on the Eastern end. There are a few houses that would have to be demolished. The floodlights at the Harlequins hockey ground would have to go, which would probably mean moving the entire club.

A slight problem with the runway is that any taxiway (assuming there would be one) would have to go on the side away from the airport, which is undesirable from an operational perspective. Perhaps a new runway could be constructed parallel to 25/07 with the existing runway turned into the taxiway.

brian_dromey 11th Jan 2007 23:43


Originally Posted by 840 (Post 3063642)
A slight problem with the runway is that any taxiway (assuming there would be one) would have to go on the side away from the airport, which is undesirable from an operational perspective. Perhaps a new runway could be constructed parallel to 25/07 with the existing runway turned into the taxiway.


IF and its a big IF 25/07 were to be extended then its my guess that there would not be a taxiway as all an aircraft would simply backtrack as they do at the minute. I also suspect that for optimal operational effeciency ( and lowest cost) both runways should be extended. The current runway for take off (and landing of heavy jets) with 25/07 used for single aisle jets in cross winds. A thousand feet onto both should do the trick, I suspect.

gaelgeoir 12th Jan 2007 09:33

Playing monopoly
 

Originally Posted by brian_dromey (Post 3063687)
IF and its a big IF 25/07 were to be extended then its my guess that there would not be a taxiway as all an aircraft would simply backtrack as they do at the minute. I also suspect that for optimal operational effeciency ( and lowest cost) both runways should be extended. The current runway for take off (and landing of heavy jets) with 25/07 used for single aisle jets in cross winds. A thousand feet onto both should do the trick, I suspect.

PLEASE........given the extremely serious debt facing Cork's management, I find facile statements such as those highlighted above to be absolutely meaningless.

CCR 12th Jan 2007 10:09


Originally Posted by gaelgeoir (Post 3064176)
PLEASE........given the extremely serious debt facing Cork's management, I find facile statements such as those highlighted above to be absolutely meaningless.

The terminal debt has not yet been decided. There was a government commitment made not to load this debt onto Cork.
Aer Rianta assumed the Shannon terminal development debt and with an election coming up we expect the same in Cork.
Extension of both runways, parallel taxiways and an upgrade of the nav aids is needed for Cork to compete fairly with the other State airports and help regional development in Ireland.

Shamrogue 12th Jan 2007 12:27

SQ @ Ork
 
Brian,

Just a quick note. SQ has had fares from Ork for along time. It's simply the EI feed into LHR, similar to SNN and DUB.

Fares to SIN start around 800 plus taxes - SYD is there from about 900. Just looked up the fare. CX also offer fares etc etc.

For online bookings try ADVERT LINK REMOVED. Great booking engine.

Cheerio

Shamrogue

brian_dromey 12th Jan 2007 13:15


Originally Posted by gaelgeoir (Post 3064176)
PLEASE........given the extremely serious debt facing Cork's management, I find facile statements such as those highlighted above to be absolutely meaningless.


Well some posters are of the impression that an entrie runway should be built. That is not the case.Humour me for a moment.....

There are two issues surrounding the runway, runway length and crosswinds.

There is already an X runway at ORK, and it has been used in recent days by EIs 320s. Given that the use of this runway would need strong Xwinds, a pretty short extension should do the trick. It may also be possibe to install CAT III to this runway more easily than it would to the current primary runway.

As I understand it the current runway at ORK is unlikely ever to be Cat III equipped, due to terrain, etc. However this runway could be used for take offs in most condtions. If ORK is ever to get a susatined transatlantic service the runway could be extended. The shorter extension of the current primary, would in all probability cost much less than building a new runawy parallel to 05/27 and tuning that into a taxi way.

With the use of two runways operational felxibility and effeciencies would arise. Think about for a second, as one aircraft can use one runway as a taxiway, while the other takes-off/lands on the other. Seem logical to me.

After the fiasco that is the current terminal debt, ORK needs cost effective, and effctove solutions to teh current problems. While I am not an expert on the geography and land usage around the airport, I would imagine that there is more scope to extend the Xrunway than the primary. How many diversions have there been due to fog and winds this winter? Look at the costs the airlines whould have been spared in fuel, busses and positioning if their planes could land at the airport instead of going to DUB/SNN.

The question would surely arrise, why would you build a brand new runway instead of extending the one(s) already in pace to offer a similar solution.

Tom the Tenor 12th Jan 2007 15:28

More than likely there will never be any runway extensions to 17/35 or 25/07, a parallel taxiway, a CATIII ILS for a long, long time to come. Nothing. Why you may ask? One, the airlines will not come out publicly and seek these much needed improvements in case it would affect their bottom line by having to pay a bit extra in charges. Two, many Cork politicians are mugs just like a lot of their electorate and the airport is so far down the list of priorities locally it just does not count. The DAA and CAA etc know this well and they are successfully able to fob off Cork passengers and the public up to their eyeballs and blame diversions on fog, winds etc and a lot of the time the public buy it from them hook, line and sinker and they get away with all the spin. For example, on a recent occasion the fact that some flights at Shannon were also affected by strong cross winds was enough of an excuse to explain why Cork had also weather affected flights and that made it all so understandable and, Viola, the crowd at the airport are in the clear with the public!

I have been in London all week due to a family bereavement and I returned to Cork this morning on FR901 for the weekend before having to head back again on Monday next for the funeral on Tuesday. Well, let me tell you all the final approach down the ILS to 17 this morning scared the daylights out of me, we were being tossed all over the place in the turbulent crosswinds, the landing was very hard and rollout was like a Metropolitan Police car on two wheels going around a corner like I saw yesterday in the North London area. The corner was as tight as the runway is at Cork!

It is so plainly obvious that runway 25/07 should be the runway of choice at Cork in the prevailing winds. This has been such a hard winter at Cork for go arounds and diversions off runway 17 you would think lessons would be noted for the future but with the kind of weak leadership there is from the politicians, the players at Cork Airport and from among the general public our airport will continue only to be second class or worse. Even the precious new heartless terminal cannot park a widebody such as a 767 or an A330 nose in to the new terminal? If not, what a farce the place is.

If you are interested in what happens to Cork Airport there is little choice but to carry on but I am now so full of pessimism I have reached such a new low.

And you can forget yer North Atlantic. The Bluebird Cargo 737 from Iceland and the Tango 9 airway down to Faro and the Canaries is our lot at Cork.


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