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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:04
  #5941 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London,UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by eckhard View Post


Yes. Once youíre a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:14
  #5942 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.
With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:27
  #5943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,997
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I donít know. Money isnít everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:43
  #5944 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I donít know. Money isnít everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
Do you mean RHS?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:55
  #5945 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,997
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


Do you mean RHS?
yep sorry. Meant RHS!
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 23:52
  #5946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 05:39
  #5947 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,364
I’m certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

“should I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)”

what would you recommend?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 08:27
  #5948 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by FACoff View Post
Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?
I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 09:50
  #5949 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,997
Originally Posted by Northern Monkey View Post
I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.
or, enjoy longhaul with its benefits for 5-10, then take SH command with seniority, or go SH LGW command with a lot of relative seniority on fleet and have the same improved lifestyle and salary?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 14:09
  #5950 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Posts: 209
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to buy a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.

Last edited by I'm Off!; 16th Feb 2019 at 14:43.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 15:28
  #5951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by I'm Off! View Post
No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to by a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.
BA FO Pay is only amazing if you were at university two years ago......
I think the rest of " I'm Offs" post is spot on

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Old 15th Feb 2019, 16:01
  #5952 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Iím certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

ďshould I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)Ē

what would you recommend?
Depends where youíre coming from and what your aspirations are, unless youíre about to lose your job. If youíre escaping from the desert, it depends how quickly you want to escape.

If youíre coming from one of the bottom-feeders, same answer.

If youíre coming from Ryanair or Easy (or equivalent) LHS, I wouldnít bother coming at all unless you really want Longhaul.

If youíre coming from Ryanair or Easy (or equivalent) RHS, only come for longhaul or stay where you are and go LHS.

If youíre coming from VS or longhaul charter RHS, see whether your time to a longhaul command is any better (and youíd better like shorthaul in the meantime).

If youíre coming from VS or longhaul charter LHS, youíre barking.

Last edited by Tay Cough; 15th Feb 2019 at 16:46.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 19:32
  #5953 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,997
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
BA FO Pay is only amazing if you were at university two years ago......
I think the rest of " I'm Offs" post is spot on
or a 10 year wide body captain that even with pp35 will see their gross income with allowances increase by 20k.

And itís pointless comparing with KLM and lufty, the brexiteers have seen to that.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 21:57
  #5954 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Iím certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

ďshould I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)Ē

what would you recommend?
I think at the moment I'd struggle to recommend BA as a company to work for at all, short haul or long haul. I agree with everything above - morale at rock bottom, scumbag management who couldn't care less, pay cuts and productivity increases all round while they all treat themselves to whopping bonuses. Insult to injury - a pay deal which offers a pay CUT, funded by further increases in productivity. For added hilarity, prior acknowledgement from Klaus that morale was already flagging. It'd be funny if they weren't serious.

Tay Cough has kindly answered your question though and I wouldn't change a word. The only (to emphasise again, ONLY) reason to join BA now is the fact it is a stable and secure long haul airline, arguably the only one in the UK. What scares me here is the speed and extent to which things have deteriorated, aided no doubt by a union which has lived in BA's pocket and which is crumbling and losing support by the day.

Unfortunately I've seen this decline before in a previous airline. Management desperate to shaft us, threshold eventually reached, and a majority strike vote the result. Sadly that unity doesn't exist at BA - we're all doing different jobs (PP24/34, SH/LH, junior/senior, LGW/LHR). It'll get a lot worse before people start to push back here.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 22:06
  #5955 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: between 20 & 30 000'
Posts: 35
years ago, I lamented the fact that people were taking awful contracts just to get into a shiny jet, the result, I thought, would be the reduction of legacy terms. Is this possibly proof of this?
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 17:27
  #5956 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 705
Sadly that unity doesn't exist at BA - we're all doing different jobs (PP24/34, SH/LH, junior/senior, LGW/LHR). It'll get a lot worse before people start to push back here.
Completely agree. Which is why it is bittersweet seeing the faux militancy from some BA pilots who are on very good contracts with senior LH positions and pensions over 50% of their junior counterparts could only dream of shout loudly for strike action. Ask a senior chap/ess about the conditions for those at the bottom of the pile....."no idea, but I did my time down thereĒ is often the response. And itís that apathy and myopia which has made our T&Cs so hard to defend from the present management culture.

Its very easy to blame Balpa - about as easy as not having any interest in anything that doesnít affect you, like BARP, like PP34, like the demise of BA SH as a sustainable career choice.

We wonít go on strike because we have no unity left. I believe in the past we had some. We must have, as I joined at the beginning of the current decade and was impressed at what my predecessors had preserved for my generation of new joiners. I canít say Iíd join today and think the same.

All IMHO, and Iím sure some senior folk will be along to deride such a view of the BA pilot workforce, but Iím afraid many of my colleagues need to wake up and glance beyond the end of their nose. Things can and will get a lot worse if we donít find some way of pulling together in the same direction - I really hope we are finally at that point.
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 17:49
  #5957 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 361
A fair few of the senior people youíre referring to have children who are new entrants and theyíre well aware of the differences between the contracts.

While there may be some vociferous senior people regarding future industrial action, if the junior donít join in, itís not going to get any better for them is it?
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Old 16th Feb 2019, 17:59
  #5958 (permalink)  
NLP
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder View Post

We wonít go on strike because we have no unity left. I believe in the past we had some. We must have, as I joined at the beginning of the current decade and was impressed at what my predecessors had preserved for my generation of new joiners. I canít say Iíd join today and think the same.
I would disagree. Most people will go on strike. Most of us are just waiting for the signal from BALPA which could come pretty soon.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 15:10
  #5959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by crazypilot View Post
Hi all,

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and didnít work too hard!

I did my interview / group ex stage mid November, received the ďplease book your sim assessmentĒ email shortly after but still yet to have any dates populated on the careers website. Don't suppose anyone knows if they will be releasing dates soon or have they forgotten about me? 🙈

Many thanks!
Hi craypilot,

Any chance you could give me some info on what stage 2 looks like or how I could prepare for it? I am supposed to attend very soon.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 20:58
  #5960 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4
Hi!
I have my stage 1 and 2 assessment the 27th of FEB. I was hoping maybe someone can help me out by telling me some more about the assessments or push me in the right diretion to find more information.
So far i have seen that i need to brush up my math skills and that the group assessment can be anything out of a 100 different scenario's. So perhaps someone could tell me something more about the interview? like what was their focus on? what kind of questions can i expect? or pretty much anyting you like to share.
Would be very much appreciated! please feel free to pm me.
Cheers,

Greyhames
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