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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 12th Feb 2019, 13:48
  #5941 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Someone joining now still has many people to come in behind them, but they also have the last 4 or 5 years worth of shorthaul DEPs and FPPs who are eagerly awaiting a move to long haul.
But who wonít get it because the company now prefers to hire Direct Entry Pilots straight into long haul due cost at the expense of First Officers on the airbus. Direct Entry A350 actually made me want to be sick, itís about as big a slap to the face of the Airbus P2 community as you could possibly imagine.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 14:19
  #5942 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Here
Age: 49
Posts: 36
At what point during the process can you state a preference for SH/LH, and when are you told whether youíve got LH/SH? Im potentially interested for the future but SH wouldnít work for me.

Is it a case of being willing to jack in the current job, joining (if theyíd have me) then just keeping fingers crossed?
Daily Dalaman Dave is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 15:03
  #5943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Within 3 hours of a suitable alternate
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


But who wonít get it because the company now prefers to hire Direct Entry Pilots straight into long haul due cost at the expense of First Officers on the airbus. Direct Entry A350 actually made me want to be sick, itís about as big a slap to the face of the Airbus P2 community as you could possibly imagine.

But that's been going on for the last 30 plus years so hardly new, except the SH fleet wasn't Airbus if that's a consideration.

(DEP who joined straight on the most senior fleet at the time)
Capt Ecureuil is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 15:29
  #5944 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 537
red9 are you still frozen?
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 15:58
  #5945 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Daily Dalaman Dave View Post
At what point during the process can you state a preference for SH/LH, and when are you told whether youíve got LH/SH? Im potentially interested for the future but SH wouldnít work for me.

Is it a case of being willing to jack in the current job, joining (if theyíd have me) then just keeping fingers crossed?
I didn't get a chance to express a preference for LH/SH - and nor do I think it would be wise to voice one.

I was in a similar situation as you - I wouldn't have been able to accept SH due to family commitments and the long commute. I took the view that I would just go through the motions and see what I was offered, then make up my mind. I'm not sure either party benefit from this and it would seem sensible for both to state their intentions from the outset; but what do I know.

clvf88 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 16:24
  #5946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Here
Age: 49
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by clvf88 View Post
I didn't get a chance to express a preference for LH/SH - and nor do I think it would be wise to voice one.

I was in a similar situation as you - I wouldn't have been able to accept SH due to family commitments and the long commute. I took the view that I would just go through the motions and see what I was offered, then make up my mind. I'm not sure either party benefit from this and it would seem sensible for both to state their intentions from the outset; but what do I know.
Thanks for that. Last one from me, PPJN states that year 1 FO base salary is £55k 😬. What is realistic net monthly take home pay for SH/LH....presuming LH get more in the way of allowances?

Cheers
Daily Dalaman Dave is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 17:26
  #5947 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by Capt Ecureuil View Post
But that's been going on for the last 30 plus years so hardly new, except the SH fleet wasn't Airbus if that's a consideration.

(DEP who joined straight on the most senior fleet at the time)
Yes itís been going on but not in the numbers weíre seeing right now. In a year where there are potentially 350 recruits less than 100 airbus FOís have valid moves elsewhere (at last count) suggesting that the majority of this yearís recruits will be going to the long haul fleets. Thatís wrong and itís in complete contrast to the recruitment teamís assertion that the A320 is the primary recruitment fleet. Iím not even moaning necessarily about a longer wait for long haul, itís stopping the junior guys in the Airbus RHS from moving up their respective list and getting better bidding power. It shafts every airbus FO in its own little way in complete isolation, but of course the company couldnít give a sh1t about Short Haul and even less about SH FOís so it doesnít matter.

I genuinely donít aim this at and bear no ill will towards people who take a DEP position on the Long Haul fleets, Iíd do exactly the same in their position and would have done had it been offered. What I didnít count on in accepting a SH offer was the majority of recruitment after me being on the long haul fleets and not only slowing down the move to Long Haul but not even seeing the benefit of better rosters in the meantime in a time of mass recruitment. Buyers remorse.

Last edited by RexBanner; 12th Feb 2019 at 17:40.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 18:12
  #5948 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 537
Rex, Iíve just had a quick look through the PRIAM results. Itís not the easiest document to just skim through and decode, but are you arguing that BA should be releasing people from equipment freezes before allowing recruitment onto fleets that those frozen pilots have bid for? I cannot immediately see any short haul pilot who is unfrozen and has the seniority for their requested move, who does not have a valid bid. BA have a requirement for pilots in various locations and they obviously want to do that as cheaply as possible. Thatís the whole point of the equipment freeze period.

If you are talking about pilots who have served their time and are unfrozen, then I absolutely agree with you 100%, but I cannot quickly find any such cases.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 18:13
  #5949 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Within 3 hours of a suitable alternate
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Yes itís been going on but not in the numbers weíre seeing right now.
I seem to remember and certainly in percentage terms it was.

I do appreciate your frustration however.
Capt Ecureuil is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 19:42
  #5950 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 537
I donít understand where numbers of people being recruited onto other fleets makes a difference to the pain of an equipment freeze. Everyone has the same freeze when they first join. A few lucky people do get released before the end of their freeze period, and always have done if it suits the company, but itís fairly rare. When youíve served your 5 years, you jump to your next fleet of choice ahead of everyone that joined since you. If a large number of people have been recruited onto your new fleet since you joined, it is actually much better for you because youíll join the new fleet on an even higher relative seniority. If no one had been recruited since you, youíd end up bottom of the status list on that new fleet. It has nothing to do with whether BA cares about short haul pilots. People recruited to long haul who want to get to short haul have just the same freeze. If there was no recruitment going on, you would still have your 5 year freeze just as you would if there was double the current recruitment going on.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 20:14
  #5951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 648
Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, I’d be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact that’d be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? I’d say it’s pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, I’d say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that I’ll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but I’m not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so I’d take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. I’m not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.

Last edited by RexBanner; 12th Feb 2019 at 20:47.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 23:07
  #5952 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 537
Ah ok, so you are basically arguing that there should not be an engagement freeze?
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 23:18
  #5953 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, Iíd be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact thatíd be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? Iíd say itís pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, Iíd say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that Iíll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but Iím not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so Iíd take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. Iím not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.
Donít you think it sounds like you want the rules to be different so you can have it your way? It used to be about 10 years to get in the top 10% of the short haul status list if that helps so youíre already doing far better than hundreds of pilots that joined before you. If only theyíd had scale of movement that weíre seeing now.

Itís the same for everyone. I doubt you were bullied in to accepting short haul and commuting when you did and nothing has changed since you joined so you knew the score? You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well thatís still the case.

Iím a little baffled by your sense of entitlement mind. Youíll have a much happier existence if you just accept that your time will come when itís your turn. Patience is all.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 02:28
  #5954 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: HonkyDong
Posts: 262
Does anyone have a sim ride coming up in the next few days?
BizJetJockey is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 07:55
  #5955 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,090
Without wishing to pile on further controversy I’d commend OBK’s comment “to the house” and given there are some optimistic estimates being handed out to prospective joiners feel I need to add the health warning that:

“past performance is not an indicator of future outcomes

...well certainly the past performance measured over the last 4-5 years..

We’ve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didn’t predict) at BA over the past few years. That has propelled some up the short haul “fleet seniority” scale at a dizzying rate. That is not the historical norm (OBK’s 10 years to get 10% from the top of a shorthaul P2 list sounds more normal) and TBH looking at future rates of retirements from BA and forthcoming events that might effect the U.K. and other economies I’m not sure I would be making plans based on an extrapolation of current progression rates up the senority scales and bouncing across to LH PDQ...(that’s me, all optimistic as usual).

As for the controversial issue of engagement freezes, they are what they are, always have been.

Over the years there has frequently been sizeable DEP recruitment onto LH fleets...what has perhaps made things more irritating for some nowadays is that decades back the Back Every Afternoon cohort were generally very happy with their day trips, Berlin postings and shuttle back up credit and they wouldn’t touch LH with a barge pole.....now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.


wiggy is online now  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 10:16
  #5956 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post

You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well thatís still the case.
Would you say itís better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until youíve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 10:33
  #5957 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 711
Take the seniority as soon as you can, the difference of weeks in join date could mean years of your career being behind.
Ollie Onion is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 11:14
  #5958 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,889
Weíve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didnít predict) at BA over the past few years.
with the retirement plot with those that decided to extend from 55, itís not stopping any time soon. Maybe a pause with brexit if the industry takes a demand hit but even so, retirees need replacing.

Id be surprised to see it stop for the next 3 years tbh.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 12:12
  #5959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,090
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Or wait an extra year until you’ve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
..Short answer = what Ollie said.

Long answer= ....and if BA aren’t recruiting in a year?.

Look I know I’m in danger of starting to sound like a stuck record but on the basis of having been at BA during a couple of downturns including the fallout from 9/11 I can promise you if something comes along out of left field that adversely effects the business BA can and will slam the doors shut overnight (post 9/11 the 747 Classic Fleet was binned so fast if you blinked you missed it).

We have Brexit imminent (potential effect unknown) and if you’ve read the papers recently you’ll see reports that one or two major economies are starting to look a bit wobbly...worth bearing in mind when a lot of BA’s passengers travel for business, not leisure reasons.

Fundamentally, and despite all the optimism displayed by many here (hopefully and probably justified) there is zero, nil, no guarantee in reality that BA recruiting will continue “as is”...so if you have are read up on things like engagement freezes, T&Cs, rostering/lifestyle under JSS and still want to join BA then I’d honestly recommend you take the first post offered, regardless of fleet, and get a place on the Master Seniority List.



Last edited by wiggy; 13th Feb 2019 at 12:51.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 13:03
  #5960 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post


Would you say itís better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until youíve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
Just to re-iterate what wiggy says above, if you want a long career at BA, AND commuting is not an issue for you (ie you live relatively close to Heathrow) then I would say take the first slot that comes up. Who knows when recruitment will stop (so you might end up not getting in at all) or alternatively by waiting you might cede 300 seniority places which in the long run will come back to haunt you. Either way I can only really see downside if you definitely want to work for BA.

On the subject of direct entry long haul, I have never really understood why people see it as such a golden ticket. Perhaps with the exception of commuters for whom a short haul job would not be practical. For most though, the reality as a long haul DEP is you are going to join a fleet at the bottom, and pretty much stay there for years. Maybe if you are in your 20's and single that's not so terrible. If you have a family or other commitments it looks like a disaster to me. I would argue the lack of control for junior people under JSS coupled with some of the bruising junior rosters on long haul (6 trips a month) would take their toll on just about anyone in the timescales we are talking about - I would re-emphasise that this could go on for years and years. Perhaps that is why we are now seeing, a small but statistically significant number of resignations from Junior people who joined on long haul as DEP's only to find it was unsustainable.

The alternative is you join on the Airbus and watch your relative seniority rise quickly if recruitment continues, as I believe is likely. You get your lifestyle back far more quickly and when you do eventually go long haul, thanks to the DEPs who don't subscribe to my views, you won't start at the bottom all over again.

Northern Monkey is offline  

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