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Old 14th Feb 2019, 02:56
  #5941 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
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Upgrades

Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 03:36
  #5942 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.

Last edited by OBK!; 14th Feb 2019 at 03:48.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 04:29
  #5943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 64
Posts: 891
Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?
Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 04:36
  #5944 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
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Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.
Thanks for the explanation.

One more thing regarding SH on the A320, which is a better base to be at out of LGW and LHR regarding trips, coming home more nights, commuting and general satisfaction etc?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 08:43
  #5945 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Originally Posted by eckhard View Post
When I was a Training Copilot on the 744...
What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 08:55
  #5946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Straight Outta Compton
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What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?
TRI-TRE

No line flying training duties, that's all done by Training Captains (who are all also TRI/TRE)
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 10:00
  #5947 (permalink)  
 
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Ah I see...

So the
Originally Posted by eckhard View Post
When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.
referred to the stuff in the box.

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 14:18
  #5948 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Rhs to lhs

How long is typical, joining as DEP on say the A320 rhs to lhs.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 14:47
  #5949 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
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Sorry, I should have explained more clearly.

Training Copilots (TCP) are a cheap way for BA to get TRI/TRE for sim duties without having to pay a Training Captain’s (TC) training emoluments (which are pensionable). By contrast, a TCP’s emoluments are not pensionable and in any case are much lower.

The scheme originated at a time when Copilots were stuck in the RHS for years and years and Command slots were scarce. It was seen as a way of giving copilots something interesting to aim for and also prepared them for future TC roles.

Selection is by merit and interview. ‘Merit’ being evidence of a reasonably clean training record and interview being a Q and A session and a pre-sim briefing in front of a panel of senior trainers.

The successful candidate then undergoes the ‘Core Course’ to learn the fundamentals of teaching and learning, followed by a full TRI course in the sim. They then observe a number of actual sim sessions (preferably conversion courses as opposed to LPCs) before being formally assessed for the TRI Rating. They are then able to give sim instruction towards the grant of the Type Rating.

After a variable interval (in my case almost immediately), they are sent to the CAA to undertake the TRE standardisation course. This culminates in an Assessment of Competence in the company sim, after which the TRE Certificate is issued.

So far, exactly the same as for a TC.

The difference is that TCPs are not Captains, and so cannot undertake line training duties in the aircraft. This causes the TCP’s roster to be somewhat ‘sim-heavy’. In my day, we did five training months in a year, during which we would be rostered about 17 sim sessions in the month plus an actual trip for recency. I think things have changed since then.

When there were periods of few conversion courses, it got a bit tedious running the same sim check 17 times in a month! One certainly got to know the common pitfalls in the procedures. I also learned a lot about my own capabilities and picked up lots of good stuff by watching others, far better pilots than me.

One looked forward to running a series of conversion details with the same crew. It was very gratifying to see them advance and improve over three or four days, learning how to operate the Queen of the Skies.

The TCP contract was limited to three years which meant that BA didn’t have to pay for a revalidation. It also meant that others would get a chance to apply. In my case, due to a particularly busy training programme, a few of us were asked to extend by one year, so we did revalidate after all.

All in all, an enlightened programme which used the latent talent in the P2 community and was a great starting point for many a TC’s subsequent career.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:04
  #5950 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London,UK
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Originally Posted by eckhard View Post


Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:14
  #5951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.
With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:27
  #5952 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:43
  #5953 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
Do you mean RHS?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 19:55
  #5954 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


Do you mean RHS?
yep sorry. Meant RHS!
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 23:52
  #5955 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 05:39
  #5956 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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I’m certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

“should I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)”

what would you recommend?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 08:27
  #5957 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Originally Posted by FACoff View Post
Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?
I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 09:50
  #5958 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Northern Monkey View Post
I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.
or, enjoy longhaul with its benefits for 5-10, then take SH command with seniority, or go SH LGW command with a lot of relative seniority on fleet and have the same improved lifestyle and salary?
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 14:09
  #5959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to buy a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.

Last edited by I'm Off!; 16th Feb 2019 at 14:43.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 15:28
  #5960 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Originally Posted by I'm Off! View Post
No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to by a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.
BA FO Pay is only amazing if you were at university two years ago......
I think the rest of " I'm Offs" post is spot on

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