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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 12th Feb 2019, 19:14
  #5861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 861
Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, I’d be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact that’d be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? I’d say it’s pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, I’d say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that I’ll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but I’m not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so I’d take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. I’m not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.

Last edited by RexBanner; 12th Feb 2019 at 19:47.
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Old 12th Feb 2019, 22:07
  #5862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 685
Ah ok, so you are basically arguing that there should not be an engagement freeze?
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2019, 22:18
  #5863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, Iíd be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact thatíd be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? Iíd say itís pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, Iíd say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that Iíll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but Iím not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so Iíd take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. Iím not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.
Donít you think it sounds like you want the rules to be different so you can have it your way? It used to be about 10 years to get in the top 10% of the short haul status list if that helps so youíre already doing far better than hundreds of pilots that joined before you. If only theyíd had scale of movement that weíre seeing now.

Itís the same for everyone. I doubt you were bullied in to accepting short haul and commuting when you did and nothing has changed since you joined so you knew the score? You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well thatís still the case.

Iím a little baffled by your sense of entitlement mind. Youíll have a much happier existence if you just accept that your time will come when itís your turn. Patience is all.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 01:28
  #5864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: HonkyDong
Posts: 264
Does anyone have a sim ride coming up in the next few days?
BizJetJockey is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 06:55
  #5865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,860
Without wishing to pile on further controversy I’d commend OBK’s comment “to the house” and given there are some optimistic estimates being handed out to prospective joiners feel I need to add the health warning that:

“past performance is not an indicator of future outcomes

...well certainly the past performance measured over the last 4-5 years..

We’ve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didn’t predict) at BA over the past few years. That has propelled some up the short haul “fleet seniority” scale at a dizzying rate. That is not the historical norm (OBK’s 10 years to get 10% from the top of a shorthaul P2 list sounds more normal) and TBH looking at future rates of retirements from BA and forthcoming events that might effect the U.K. and other economies I’m not sure I would be making plans based on an extrapolation of current progression rates up the senority scales and bouncing across to LH PDQ...(that’s me, all optimistic as usual).

As for the controversial issue of engagement freezes, they are what they are, always have been.

Over the years there has frequently been sizeable DEP recruitment onto LH fleets...what has perhaps made things more irritating for some nowadays is that decades back the Back Every Afternoon cohort were generally very happy with their day trips, Berlin postings and shuttle back up credit and they wouldn’t touch LH with a barge pole.....now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.


wiggy is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 09:16
  #5866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 457
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post

You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well thatís still the case.
Would you say itís better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until youíve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 09:33
  #5867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 988
Take the seniority as soon as you can, the difference of weeks in join date could mean years of your career being behind.
Ollie Onion is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 10:14
  #5868 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
Weíve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didnít predict) at BA over the past few years.
with the retirement plot with those that decided to extend from 55, itís not stopping any time soon. Maybe a pause with brexit if the industry takes a demand hit but even so, retirees need replacing.

Id be surprised to see it stop for the next 3 years tbh.
VinRouge is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 11:12
  #5869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,860
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Or wait an extra year until you’ve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
..Short answer = what Ollie said.

Long answer= ....and if BA aren’t recruiting in a year?.

Look I know I’m in danger of starting to sound like a stuck record but on the basis of having been at BA during a couple of downturns including the fallout from 9/11 I can promise you if something comes along out of left field that adversely effects the business BA can and will slam the doors shut overnight (post 9/11 the 747 Classic Fleet was binned so fast if you blinked you missed it).

We have Brexit imminent (potential effect unknown) and if you’ve read the papers recently you’ll see reports that one or two major economies are starting to look a bit wobbly...worth bearing in mind when a lot of BA’s passengers travel for business, not leisure reasons.

Fundamentally, and despite all the optimism displayed by many here (hopefully and probably justified) there is zero, nil, no guarantee in reality that BA recruiting will continue “as is”...so if you have are read up on things like engagement freezes, T&Cs, rostering/lifestyle under JSS and still want to join BA then I’d honestly recommend you take the first post offered, regardless of fleet, and get a place on the Master Seniority List.



Last edited by wiggy; 13th Feb 2019 at 11:51.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 12:03
  #5870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 120
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post


Would you say itís better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until youíve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?
Just to re-iterate what wiggy says above, if you want a long career at BA, AND commuting is not an issue for you (ie you live relatively close to Heathrow) then I would say take the first slot that comes up. Who knows when recruitment will stop (so you might end up not getting in at all) or alternatively by waiting you might cede 300 seniority places which in the long run will come back to haunt you. Either way I can only really see downside if you definitely want to work for BA.

On the subject of direct entry long haul, I have never really understood why people see it as such a golden ticket. Perhaps with the exception of commuters for whom a short haul job would not be practical. For most though, the reality as a long haul DEP is you are going to join a fleet at the bottom, and pretty much stay there for years. Maybe if you are in your 20's and single that's not so terrible. If you have a family or other commitments it looks like a disaster to me. I would argue the lack of control for junior people under JSS coupled with some of the bruising junior rosters on long haul (6 trips a month) would take their toll on just about anyone in the timescales we are talking about - I would re-emphasise that this could go on for years and years. Perhaps that is why we are now seeing, a small but statistically significant number of resignations from Junior people who joined on long haul as DEP's only to find it was unsustainable.

The alternative is you join on the Airbus and watch your relative seniority rise quickly if recruitment continues, as I believe is likely. You get your lifestyle back far more quickly and when you do eventually go long haul, thanks to the DEPs who don't subscribe to my views, you won't start at the bottom all over again.

Northern Monkey is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 13:55
  #5871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 457
Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 14:51
  #5872 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 41
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.

I completely agree with Northern Monkey most of my colleagues from my joiners course just over 4 years ago would have gone LH at the first possible opportunity. However now with JSS the conversation has changed and all are considering staying another year or even two on SH to enjoy the lifestyle a bit longer while getting slightly more senior by the time we jump across to LH due to DEP LH joining.
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 18:37
  #5873 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 457
This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 18:51
  #5874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London,UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
ben38uk is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 18:58
  #5875 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 457
Yes thatís what I had come to understand. Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly. That alone probably makes it worth getting first available position (SH or LH).
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:05
  #5876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,860

Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
Unlikely but it’s a bit of a “that depends”.. luck in and join on a new fast growing fleet and you can do well ...until the senior pilots pile in above you (been there, seen that). On a largish fleet probably the worse that could happen is your level of control stagnates, though I guess in extremis it could reduce if for some bizarre reason people below you on the Fleet transfer off. Probably the bigger threat to meaningful livestyle and lifestyle control over the years on any fleet would be a change of routes/destinations for your Fleet (happened on the 747, then again on the 744).

Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly.
Correct...at the risk of outing myself I’ll make the observation that it has been demonstrated that it perfectly possible to sit one off the bottom of a Fleet senority list, be gaining company seniority, but at the same time, since it is an new, expanding and suddenly popular fleet see the number of pilots above you on your fleet go from about 100 to several hundred.....
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:56
  #5877 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 65
Posts: 983
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again
That’s exactly the thought process that I went through in 1997. Luckily for me, only DEP 744 was on offer, so I eagerly took it.
Sometimes I wonder whether I would have joined if only SH had been offered? Probably not, which may have been a mistake.

I think, given your situation, that you have sussed it out quite well. LH looks to be expanding in the short/medium term and there will always be a requirement for a greater proportion of LH FOs than on SH, due to three/four crew flights. So, as you say, take the first spot. Even if it’s SH, you could well be on a LH fleet within five years. Your decision may depend on whether you can afford the pay-cut until you catch up with what you’re earning now. That in turn may depend on how keen you are to take a SH command. In any case, barring any future “events” such as 9/11, SARS, Wall St crash, etc. you should be much better off in terms of life-style and earnings in the long run.

I gave up a charter 737 TC job for BA 744 FO and yes; it was financially very tough for a few years. More time off at home and staff travel benefits helped to convince the family that it was worth it. To be honest, once I was in I never had any regrets. Floating around the world and being paid to sleep in a bunk, or lie on a beach, seemed far more desirable than LGW-TFS-LGW. Opportunities for training or management roles are also open to all, no matter how junior. I was a 747 TRI/TRE within three years of joining.

As I’ve said before, this was all 22 years ago, so please take with a pinch of salt.

Bon courage! (as they say over here).
eckhard is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 02:56
  #5878 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 273
Upgrades

Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 03:36
  #5879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 518
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. ďOh youíve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but Iím more senior and I have zero hours...step asideĒ.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. ďSuch and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777Ē for example.

Last edited by OBK!; 14th Feb 2019 at 03:48.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 04:29
  #5880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 65
Posts: 983
Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?
Yes. Once youíre a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
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