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Old 13th Feb 2019, 14:55
  #5961 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 17
Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 15:51
  #5962 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 39
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.

I completely agree with Northern Monkey most of my colleagues from my joiners course just over 4 years ago would have gone LH at the first possible opportunity. However now with JSS the conversation has changed and all are considering staying another year or even two on SH to enjoy the lifestyle a bit longer while getting slightly more senior by the time we jump across to LH due to DEP LH joining.
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:37
  #5963 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 17
This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:51
  #5964 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London,UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
ben38uk is online now  
Old 13th Feb 2019, 19:58
  #5965 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 17
Yes that’s what I had come to understand. Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly. That alone probably makes it worth getting first available position (SH or LH).
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 20:05
  #5966 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,090

Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?
Unlikely but it’s a bit of a “that depends”.. luck in and join on a new fast growing fleet and you can do well ...until the senior pilots pile in above you (been there, seen that). On a largish fleet probably the worse that could happen is your level of control stagnates, though I guess in extremis it could reduce if for some bizarre reason people below you on the Fleet transfer off. Probably the bigger threat to meaningful livestyle and lifestyle control over the years on any fleet would be a change of routes/destinations for your Fleet (happened on the 747, then again on the 744).

Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly.
Correct...at the risk of outing myself I’ll make the observation that it has been demonstrated that it perfectly possible to sit one off the bottom of a Fleet senority list, be gaining company seniority, but at the same time, since it is an new, expanding and suddenly popular fleet see the number of pilots above you on your fleet go from about 100 to several hundred.....
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Old 13th Feb 2019, 20:56
  #5967 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 64
Posts: 852
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again
That’s exactly the thought process that I went through in 1997. Luckily for me, only DEP 744 was on offer, so I eagerly took it.
Sometimes I wonder whether I would have joined if only SH had been offered? Probably not, which may have been a mistake.

I think, given your situation, that you have sussed it out quite well. LH looks to be expanding in the short/medium term and there will always be a requirement for a greater proportion of LH FOs than on SH, due to three/four crew flights. So, as you say, take the first spot. Even if it’s SH, you could well be on a LH fleet within five years. Your decision may depend on whether you can afford the pay-cut until you catch up with what you’re earning now. That in turn may depend on how keen you are to take a SH command. In any case, barring any future “events” such as 9/11, SARS, Wall St crash, etc. you should be much better off in terms of life-style and earnings in the long run.

I gave up a charter 737 TC job for BA 744 FO and yes; it was financially very tough for a few years. More time off at home and staff travel benefits helped to convince the family that it was worth it. To be honest, once I was in I never had any regrets. Floating around the world and being paid to sleep in a bunk, or lie on a beach, seemed far more desirable than LGW-TFS-LGW. Opportunities for training or management roles are also open to all, no matter how junior. I was a 747 TRI/TRE within three years of joining.

As I’ve said before, this was all 22 years ago, so please take with a pinch of salt.

Bon courage! (as they say over here).
eckhard is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 03:56
  #5968 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 125
Upgrades

Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 04:36
  #5969 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.
Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.

Last edited by OBK!; 14th Feb 2019 at 04:48.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 05:29
  #5970 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 64
Posts: 852
Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?
Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
eckhard is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 05:36
  #5971 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.
Thanks for the explanation.

One more thing regarding SH on the A320, which is a better base to be at out of LGW and LHR regarding trips, coming home more nights, commuting and general satisfaction etc?
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 09:43
  #5972 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 899
Originally Posted by eckhard View Post
When I was a Training Copilot on the 744...
What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?

LlamaFarmer is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 09:55
  #5973 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Straight Outta Compton
Posts: 15
What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?
TRI-TRE

No line flying training duties, that's all done by Training Captains (who are all also TRI/TRE)
followthegreens is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 11:00
  #5974 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 899
Ah I see...

So the
Originally Posted by eckhard View Post
When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.
referred to the stuff in the box.

LlamaFarmer is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:18
  #5975 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 299
Rhs to lhs

How long is typical, joining as DEP on say the A320 rhs to lhs.
littco is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 15:47
  #5976 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / UK
Age: 64
Posts: 852
Sorry, I should have explained more clearly.

Training Copilots (TCP) are a cheap way for BA to get TRI/TRE for sim duties without having to pay a Training Captain’s (TC) training emoluments (which are pensionable). By contrast, a TCP’s emoluments are not pensionable and in any case are much lower.

The scheme originated at a time when Copilots were stuck in the RHS for years and years and Command slots were scarce. It was seen as a way of giving copilots something interesting to aim for and also prepared them for future TC roles.

Selection is by merit and interview. ‘Merit’ being evidence of a reasonably clean training record and interview being a Q and A session and a pre-sim briefing in front of a panel of senior trainers.

The successful candidate then undergoes the ‘Core Course’ to learn the fundamentals of teaching and learning, followed by a full TRI course in the sim. They then observe a number of actual sim sessions (preferably conversion courses as opposed to LPCs) before being formally assessed for the TRI Rating. They are then able to give sim instruction towards the grant of the Type Rating.

After a variable interval (in my case almost immediately), they are sent to the CAA to undertake the TRE standardisation course. This culminates in an Assessment of Competence in the company sim, after which the TRE Certificate is issued.

So far, exactly the same as for a TC.

The difference is that TCPs are not Captains, and so cannot undertake line training duties in the aircraft. This causes the TCP’s roster to be somewhat ‘sim-heavy’. In my day, we did five training months in a year, during which we would be rostered about 17 sim sessions in the month plus an actual trip for recency. I think things have changed since then.

When there were periods of few conversion courses, it got a bit tedious running the same sim check 17 times in a month! One certainly got to know the common pitfalls in the procedures. I also learned a lot about my own capabilities and picked up lots of good stuff by watching others, far better pilots than me.

One looked forward to running a series of conversion details with the same crew. It was very gratifying to see them advance and improve over three or four days, learning how to operate the Queen of the Skies.

The TCP contract was limited to three years which meant that BA didn’t have to pay for a revalidation. It also meant that others would get a chance to apply. In my case, due to a particularly busy training programme, a few of us were asked to extend by one year, so we did revalidate after all.

All in all, an enlightened programme which used the latent talent in the P2 community and was a great starting point for many a TC’s subsequent career.
eckhard is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 16:04
  #5977 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London,UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by eckhard View Post


Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.

ben38uk is online now  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 16:14
  #5978 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by ben38uk View Post
That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.
With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2019, 16:27
  #5979 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,886
Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post


With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems.
Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 20:43
  #5980 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing
Do you mean RHS?
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