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Old 8th Oct 2018, 13:28
  #5121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Wiggy whilst I agree that JSS is less than desirable I think thereís a lot of scaremongering going on regarding its introduction. As a grass is greener individual casting ďenviousĒ eyes at some of the long haul rosters on iBid it has to be said that it escapes me how JSS could fit any more work onto the lines on Long Haul. Weíve already got tripline holders doing six east coasts in a month. Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient? The annual days off entitlement will remain the same too (I think I heard someone voting for JSS because weíd in fact get more annual days off?)

The inescapable conclusion for me is itís not even about money as such, itís the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and itís high time the workload was addressed. It wonít be of course.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:37
  #5122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient?
Thatís not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and iíll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:49
  #5123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Bloodhound Loose View Post


Thatís not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and iíll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:13
  #5124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:22
  #5125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
RexB,

Your Point is well made ref tripline holders. However, I donít see the BL issue as ďsplitting hairsĒ.

It varies by fleet/status and month, but I reckon a good 20% of the company are on blindlines. If, for example, you have 2 BL holders flying 600 hours a year and, next year, through JSS, you can get them to 900 hours a year, then youíve effectively generated an additional pilot with no increase in pilot numbers.

This thread is aimed at new joiners who would have been low hours blindline pilots.

Anyway, to go back to your original point, you were struggling to see how JSS could squeeze more out of the workforce. You see the answer now?
Bloodhound Loose is offline  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:23
  #5126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
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Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
My point is itís a mathematical impossibility to do more than six east coast trips in a month or five trips constructed of anything longer. Many of our colleagues are already working these kinds of rosters so how can JSS make it any worse? Additionally if life is now going to be so brutal under JSS then how come one of the things that was delaying it was that we required more pilots to make it work, not less?
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:31
  #5127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Originally Posted by Riskybis View Post

I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open


Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....




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Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:51
  #5128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Hi again, just to add my post wasnít a ďpopĒ at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think ďalright for themĒ with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I havenít looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully youíll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...Iím not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickledís take on how it will out for many of them ...but since Iíve yet to even see a dummy roster Iím only guessing....




no offence taken mate , we are all good . Good post btw
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 16:03
  #5129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 33
Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 17:12
  #5130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
Rex

At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.

I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I donít think Iíll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 17:57
  #5131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Well this makes for depressing reading. Anyone who is considering a junior command, I can tell you donít touch it with a barge pole. As soon as my freeze is up Iíll be going RHS LH or if the company allows, part time and Iíll keep the command. The only way I have coped is because blindlines work me less but Iíll be dammed if I am going to work to the level of a trip line holder and take all the crap.

Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was ďitís legalĒ yep but not under bidline rule.......
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 18:04
  #5132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
I’m still sceptical Bex, after all if JSS is going to be so incredibly efficient and able to work us to within an inch of our lives, then why are we right now embarking on another massive recruitment drive (I’m told 2019 will be possibly a new record for numbers)? There aren’t that many people retiring.

(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 18:31
  #5133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Oh no that’s it. Job’s F£&ked ��

Look forward to it.



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Old 8th Oct 2018, 18:39
  #5134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
Well for one, JSS has to work within bidline rules whereas Final Assign does not. Also, I think there will be quite a few people retire in 2019 and 2020. BA has been barely coping to cover the work even with three years of bidline rule alleviationís. Suddenly those alleviations will be gone (hopefully not to be replaced with new ones). Thereís a lot of catching up to do to establish the correct pilot numbers.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 19:20
  #5135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,632
Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Someone once said there was no fatigue at BA - yikes things must have changed,,,,
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 19:42
  #5136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,391
Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley View Post
Someone once said there was no fatigue at BA - yikes things must have changed,,,,
They have...FWIW there is a lot of disquiet now about the very fatiguing nature of some rosters/trip constructions.we’ve gone well beyond the level of grumbles over a beer post flight, people are now raising Air Safety Reports/Mandatory Occurance Reports, more so than ever before.

Also following increasing complaints and following the stalwart efforts of one individual in particular some in authority outside BA are now looking at BA’s handling of those who go sick....







wiggy is online now  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 20:07
  #5137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 90
As someone who is considering applying to Ba this year to look for an airbus command over the next 2 years, would this be a good bet? Iím not interested in LH, already done enough of that. What Iíd like to know is what sort of working pattern a new SH FO or CPT have and whether you get any choice over base at interview/ offer time. Can anyone help me with this?

someone said, BA is a long term bet, is it worth the move financially and career wise for someone mid40s who has the hours for command but wants out of the northern bucket and spade outfits?

any pm welcome too.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 20:36
  #5138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Can someone outline the part time options available in BA please. Is there a waiting list and how long from applying can you expect to get it?

many thanks
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 21:17
  #5139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
NG708. You would be mad to join BA for SH only and a quick command. You will work nearly every weekend working the inefficient trips others donít want. You will be paid less than that of a captain at both EZY and RYR. On top of that three months of the year you will be on reserve so are at the companies back and call for 28 days at 2hrs notice. Under JSS you could expect to work 18-20 days a month as a junior captain to make cap. The only bit in the above that is an assumption is JSS the rest is first hand info as reliable as you will get. Quick commands are never certain
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 21:37
  #5140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 80
I am mid thirties with young kids and been having doubts. I think I might be too old to take full advantage of a career with BA.

I have been bit later to aviation than some, career change guy, or my other plan with my age is to just go to EK for 10 years be flogged to death then come back and go EZY or someone like that.

I would love to try long haul, and hope if i get in to BA I can try it. From what I gather itís possible to go to LH and if itís not for you go back to SH? Obviously not straight away.

Im at a crossroad just weighing up options.

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