BA Direct Entry Pilot.
The “why’s” have been hinted at by previous posters so I won’t pour any more fuel on that particular fire. Many of us hope that the recent changes at the top of BA BALPA might improve matters, but there also needs to a readjustment in attitude from some of the line membership who are perhaps still reluctant to appear to be unreasonable to friends and neighbours.
Last edited by wiggy; 11th Oct 2018 at 07:13.
These roster/fatigue examples are part of the reason I retired from BA 747 longhaul at age 60 - I could have continued to 65. My problem was the relatively easy time I had over the preceding years as a 767, 777, and 747 Captain enjoying reasonable seniority and usually max 4 trips a month. As the company began to increase the pressure I should have taken part time but the 5 trips in a month 900 hours sort of took me by surprise. My last 2 years both were 900 flying hours to the minute !!
I realise this is a "golden years" sort of post but I hope new joiners realise that things have changed in BA and are likely to remain so - part time is an answer but rostering changes are really the cure. Hope JSS at least shows BA they need more flight crew.
I realise this is a "golden years" sort of post but I hope new joiners realise that things have changed in BA and are likely to remain so - part time is an answer but rostering changes are really the cure. Hope JSS at least shows BA they need more flight crew.
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I was interested to see why I’m feeling so bushed at the min. I’ve just looked back at the past 28 days. In the previous rolling 23 day period there’s been 4 complete trips and one sim. After my next trip in the previous rolling 28 days it’ll be 5 whole trips and one sim.
Quite compact I suppose. But looking about that’s not anything unusual to other folk down the list. And my blindlines over the last 3 weeks look smiliar to how it’s been for people on reserve.
Quite compact I suppose. But looking about that’s not anything unusual to other folk down the list. And my blindlines over the last 3 weeks look smiliar to how it’s been for people on reserve.
Last edited by Wireless; 11th Oct 2018 at 13:30.
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I think it was effectively as dead as a Norwegian Blue once Roster Assign came in (the ability of the company to put extra work on your line after Stage 2, regardless of where you were relative to CAP) but the name was kept I think for political reasons, as in “under us you still have Bidline”.
I know which I'd prefer.
Last edited by wiggy; 11th Oct 2018 at 17:59.
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Because Balpa in BA are A) Sh1t scared of the company and B) only interested in protecting the senior Long Haul boys and their terms and conditions and the rest of us can go hang (especially Short Haul as the general assumption is that nobody in BA really wants to be a Short Haul Pilot and everyone wants to be on a Long Haul fleet long term anyway so it’s an easy give away for concessions to the company). These are the reasons I won’t give Balpa a penny, go on tell me I’m wrong.
Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.
Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. We’ve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. There’s a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?
You don’t want to give BALPA a penny? That’s your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothers’ coat tails. Can I assume you’ll be happy to accept the pay rise we’re currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.
Bash the company or the union with facts and you won’t hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and I’ll counter.
All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ain’t great, anymore, but it ain’t complete ****e, either. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s a step up from most places. It’s all your call.
Cheers, y’all.
Buter
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Well, that’s easy enough. You re wrong. In fact, you’re wrong on a grand scale.
Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.
Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. We’ve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. There’s a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?
You don’t want to give BALPA a penny? That’s your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothers’ coat tails. Can I assume you’ll be happy to accept the pay rise we’re currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.
Bash the company or the union with facts and you won’t hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and I’ll counter.
All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ain’t great, anymore, but it ain’t complete ****e, either. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s a step up from most places. It’s all your call.
Cheers, y’all.
Buter
I dont know if this is true but was told by an ex BA pilot on 777 that BA short haul is now probably the toughest gig in the UK, would you agree with that statement?
Is the pay rise happening anytime soon and will it be better than Easy, Ryanair etc?
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Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.
Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..
Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..
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Interesting post wireless you could do with a holiday. The sleepy folk are of the view that the worst problem for Nigel's is that you very rarely work the same schedule, so planning rest periods get very difficult albeit each individual manages it in their own different way. So a shift worker working earlies / lates / nights or days / nights know exactly what to do as there isn't that much variety. Then Crews have to deal with TZ transitions (sorry to say EASA FTL is much better than CAP371 in this respect), jet lag, delays, commuting, other hobbies / jobs etc.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.
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Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.
Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..
Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..
Does anybody have any credible information on the new pay for SH/LH at BA and when this new contract would likely happen? Easyet is paying more money I believe and from what I have read but to be honest I would not know.
BA and Easy both seem to be doing a lot of hiring which is a good thing so lets hope the money keeps getting better.
DF
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Not all rosy in the garden I hear Buter.
SH Capt doing great work for the Training dept? I thought it was a LH TC doing that?
I hear a number of LH TCs are considering resigning from BALPA.
Pay rise for all ?
SH Capt doing great work for the Training dept? I thought it was a LH TC doing that?
I hear a number of LH TCs are considering resigning from BALPA.
Pay rise for all ?
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DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.
Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.
The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.
In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.
Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.
The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.
In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
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DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.
Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.
The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.
In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.
Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.
The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.
In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
It also depends on stability, quality of life and of course money. I think both BA and Easy are a safe bet long term with positives and negatives to each company. Its just a case of where would one be happier and which company treats you better?
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Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan....Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.
For starters, you may not be talking about me but seeing as the context of this conversation is a rebuttal of my comments I’ll assume that you are. Where was I complaining about JSS? I actually have a suspicion for some short haulers it’s going to be better as it gets rid of the problem that in Bidline 95% of the lines are a mixture of daytrips and tours which satisfy virtually nobody. But the crux of it is that I wasn’t even allowed to vote on my future be it JSS or Bidline because I hadn’t been in the company long enough! How unjust is that? Yeah you’ve got thirty years left here but you’re not allowed to have a say in how that will go because you’ve only been here a few months.
It’s my conscious decision to have left the Union, which I am entitled to have made as a grown adult. It doesn’t deserve condescending comments like being called “son” or the seemingly resentful accusation of “riding our coattails”. I’m not going to make any further comments as to my perception of those who hide behind anonymity to talk down so severely to someone on an Internet forum, I’ll just leave it there.
Lets see just how successful the pay negotiations are, I’ll be happy to be proved wrong (and it might even sway my decision whether to rejoin or not) but I’m expecting RPI plus a bit, which in context isn’t really that much of a result, some may even say it would be subpar compared to other companies recently.
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Rex
I can see clearly could be in breach of the trade descriptions act.
Buter is well Buter. He may do us all some good we’ll have to wait and see.
DF,
LH is not all bad on family life. The problem is foreseeing what you will want in 20 years time when it’s too late to change.
I can see clearly could be in breach of the trade descriptions act.
Buter is well Buter. He may do us all some good we’ll have to wait and see.
DF,
LH is not all bad on family life. The problem is foreseeing what you will want in 20 years time when it’s too late to change.
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Sorry, Mr Angry, but absolutely not. How can you do that with regular 8 hour time shifts on the West Coast? Get up at midnight with nothing to do and nowhere to go? Recipe for mental health problems long term. Add to that the fact that staying on UK time does not absolve you of the 5-8 night sleep (UK time) that you miss almost completely every month whilst flying to or from various places, making staying on UK time both pointless and impossible...
Similar to you mention, whether you adjust to local or not the elephant in the room isn’t the jet lag per say on a 3 day quick fire trips (local light sources, diet, rhythmn of local life) more the rest periods run in multiples of 24 hours. A bit like shift work problems. Means you can’t sleep two proper periods in 24 (unless you’re super human). So like you say, no matter what you do, on a 24 hour layover you’re missing a sleep cycle.
Mr Angry’s post mentioned striving for recovery on company time. The achievable is quite the opposite. Due to previously mentioned rest periods (24/48) that are antagonistic to the circadian rhythm, far from being able to recover on Co time, your time “on clock” is actively further disrupting your sleep cycle each time you undertake another 24/48 rest. Attempting recovery is forced onto days off. And this is where it can become a somewhat futile pursuit; dual aspects of limited time to achieve this and another shift reversal to adjust for within a small time frame. There is often not enough time to recover the sleep deficit and then re adjust your now night shift cycle back to days. Particularly on 2 days off, and noteably if one has any semblance of local life around him/her that is following U.K. time that may detract from a free ability to sleep when required. And that is even before days off are considered to be free of fatigue issues enough to be downtime in their own right; in essence, to experience required personal time free from work inflictions enough to enjoy all the psychological benefits that bestows. After all, we’re not machines!
This is not a unique BA characteristic, however BA do have an increasingly achievable high personal pilot annual hours work rate for a euro LH airline. I’ve noticed it a lot on my fleet with the work rate at the moment with not common rosters characterised with runs of 2 days off post trip. This increasingly effective ability to utilise its worker units (an open question with a new rostering system) is - despite industrial agreements forged in good faith under a different landscape - amplifying the empirically flawed and questionable ethics of the underpinning regulatory protection system that manages humans working for the flying industry.
I find it insightful to at least know and discuss the mechanics of why fatigue starts really ramping up on LH with a packed roster. It’s for differing reasons than SH.
Interesting, I read a study from the FAA mentioned something like no duty must be planned unless it’s conceivable that the Pilot has had a chance to gain 6 hours (or was it 8?) sleep within the preceding 24 hours. I gather this includes the whole duty. So you can’t be landing at 0900 unless between 0900 the day before and then, you’d slept fully and not half arsed on a seat for an hour. If that were the case then most 24 hour lay overs would fall foul of that one. I’ll be honest I don’t know the FAA FTL regs.
Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 09:50.
