BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 123
Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) , LUCKILY I’m on pp24 but still the temptation to leave is overwhelming , I feel that we are a somewhat neglected workforce , 2 applications in with 2 other companies.
rant over
rant over
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,914
Originally Posted by Riskybis
Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) ..
I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by wiggy
I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?
I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Wiggy whilst I agree that JSS is less than desirable I think there’s a lot of scaremongering going on regarding its introduction. As a grass is greener individual casting “envious” eyes at some of the long haul rosters on iBid it has to be said that it escapes me how JSS could fit any more work onto the lines on Long Haul. We’ve already got tripline holders doing six east coasts in a month. Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient? The annual days off entitlement will remain the same too (I think I heard someone voting for JSS because we’d in fact get more annual days off?)
The inescapable conclusion for me is it’s not even about money as such, it’s the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and it’s high time the workload was addressed. It won’t be of course.
The inescapable conclusion for me is it’s not even about money as such, it’s the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and it’s high time the workload was addressed. It won’t be of course.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by RexBanner
Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by Bloodhound Loose
That’s not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and i’ll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by RexBanner
we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.
BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by RexBanner
we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
Your Point is well made ref tripline holders. However, I don’t see the BL issue as “splitting hairs”.
It varies by fleet/status and month, but I reckon a good 20% of the company are on blindlines. If, for example, you have 2 BL holders flying 600 hours a year and, next year, through JSS, you can get them to 900 hours a year, then you’ve effectively generated an additional pilot with no increase in pilot numbers.
This thread is aimed at new joiners who would have been low hours blindline pilots.
Anyway, to go back to your original point, you were struggling to see how JSS could squeeze more out of the workforce. You see the answer now?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by Pickled
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.
One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.
BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.
BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,914
Originally Posted by Riskybis
I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open
Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.
Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by wiggy
Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.
Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.
Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.
Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Rex
At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.
I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I don’t think I’ll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.
At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.
I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I don’t think I’ll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Well this makes for depressing reading. Anyone who is considering a junior command, I can tell you don’t touch it with a barge pole. As soon as my freeze is up I’ll be going RHS LH or if the company allows, part time and I’ll keep the command. The only way I have coped is because blindlines work me less but I’ll be dammed if I am going to work to the level of a trip line holder and take all the crap.
Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was “it’s legal” yep but not under bidline rule.......
Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was “it’s legal” yep but not under bidline rule.......
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
I’m still sceptical Bex, after all if JSS is going to be so incredibly efficient and able to work us to within an inch of our lives, then why are we right now embarking on another massive recruitment drive (I’m told 2019 will be possibly a new record for numbers)? There aren’t that many people retiring.
(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)
(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Well for one, JSS has to work within bidline rules whereas Final Assign does not. Also, I think there will be quite a few people retire in 2019 and 2020. BA has been barely coping to cover the work even with three years of bidline rule alleviation’s. Suddenly those alleviations will be gone (hopefully not to be replaced with new ones). There’s a lot of catching up to do to establish the correct pilot numbers.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,636
Originally Posted by Pickled
Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.
Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,914
Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley
Someone once said there was no fatigue at BA - yikes things must have changed,,,,
Also following increasing complaints and following the stalwart efforts of one individual in particular some in authority outside BA are now looking at BA’s handling of those who go sick....
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 90
As someone who is considering applying to Ba this year to look for an airbus command over the next 2 years, would this be a good bet? I’m not interested in LH, already done enough of that. What I’d like to know is what sort of working pattern a new SH FO or CPT have and whether you get any choice over base at interview/ offer time. Can anyone help me with this?
someone said, BA is a long term bet, is it worth the move financially and career wise for someone mid40s who has the hours for command but wants out of the northern bucket and spade outfits?
any pm welcome too.
someone said, BA is a long term bet, is it worth the move financially and career wise for someone mid40s who has the hours for command but wants out of the northern bucket and spade outfits?
any pm welcome too.
