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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 8th Oct 2018, 06:31
  #5061 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 125
BA bonus

yeah I couldnít believe the Bonus (if you can even call it that) we got ! Almost like a sick joke from the guys at the top !!
Just about sums up BA to be honest
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 06:57
  #5062 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 40
Posts: 473
The pay question is a good one. BA’s incremental pay scale means you get about 2.3% per year. The issue is that when these scales were bought in SH commands were around 12 years. With the improved terms at RYR, EZY, Jet2 etc a command on SH at BA is not well rewarded for new commands. The gulf is huge. 78k to 148k for doing the same job!!? Let’s not point the finger at the top because that’s not the issue. The issue is how far behind the lower end of the pay scale has fallen away. I would hope that is addressed to at least match the low cost carriers....after all “Gap to market” was a favourite phrase from management until recently.

Another way way to look at it is that any increase is enjoyed by the tax man more than the pilot. Healthcare for the family would be very welcome. That’s just my view talking for myself and I know little of LH or FO pay etc. What I do know is our ex bmi colleagues should get flight pay and I feel some of our FO’s are dreadfully underpaid for any overtime that they do. It is time we were less of a push over. Yes invest in our future, but we invest for our future whilst the shareholders etc take now and tomorrow there is never any reward as we must invest again.

My take home home pay is static if not less than it was a few years ago.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 08:40
  #5063 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
People are leaving BA. Of course there are those who retire and those who lose their medicals etc, but there is a small flow of people who decide BA is not for them. Some of these come from LH and some come from SH. I know directly of 2 FOs who decided the 744 in BA was not for them and quit to return to their previous employers. I’ve heard of a couple who got their command on SH and who’ve left to earn a lot more cash. I’m not sure how it was 10+ years ago, but BA certainly isn’t what it used to be. That said, I would rather look at the sun through a pair of binoculars than return to my previous employer (Jet2). But, everyone is different....
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 09:46
  #5064 (permalink)  
nrn
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Monkey island
Age: 33
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


nrn you must be using host a LOT if youíre lucky to take home £4K after 3 years on LH. Iím a Short Hauler in the company a similar amount of time to you and even in quiet months Iím taking home £4K easily. Is your tax code correct?

Sorry thats a PP1 take home pay with minimal HOST and no overtime. Iím a TCP right now so Iím not sure how that compares to a PP4 line pilot. But right now itís a lot more but that is because I do an extra sim every now and then.

With regards to the upcoming pay negotiations, Iím expecting the BACC to push for an absolute massive payrise. We all winge about lifestyle, but when you compare us to EasyJet we are lacking behind in cold hard cash. Right now weíre making a shit tonne of money and I bet you the company is going to hide behind BREXIT this time next year. The time is NOW!

the reality will probably be slightly different though....
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 10:29
  #5065 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 125
Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and Iím working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) , LUCKILY Iím on pp24 but still the temptation to leave is overwhelming , I feel that we are a somewhat neglected workforce , 2 applications in with 2 other companies.
rant over
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 11:26
  #5066 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Riskybis View Post
Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) ..
I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?

I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.



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Old 8th Oct 2018, 11:35
  #5067 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?

Iím afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.


I guess you are right , I shouldíve had my eyes open
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 12:28
  #5068 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
Wiggy whilst I agree that JSS is less than desirable I think thereís a lot of scaremongering going on regarding its introduction. As a grass is greener individual casting ďenviousĒ eyes at some of the long haul rosters on iBid it has to be said that it escapes me how JSS could fit any more work onto the lines on Long Haul. Weíve already got tripline holders doing six east coasts in a month. Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient? The annual days off entitlement will remain the same too (I think I heard someone voting for JSS because weíd in fact get more annual days off?)

The inescapable conclusion for me is itís not even about money as such, itís the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and itís high time the workload was addressed. It wonít be of course.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 13:37
  #5069 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient?
Thatís not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and iíll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 13:49
  #5070 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
Originally Posted by Bloodhound Loose View Post


Thatís not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and iíll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:13
  #5071 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:22
  #5072 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Here and there
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

weíre splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
RexB,

Your Point is well made ref tripline holders. However, I donít see the BL issue as ďsplitting hairsĒ.

It varies by fleet/status and month, but I reckon a good 20% of the company are on blindlines. If, for example, you have 2 BL holders flying 600 hours a year and, next year, through JSS, you can get them to 900 hours a year, then youíve effectively generated an additional pilot with no increase in pilot numbers.

This thread is aimed at new joiners who would have been low hours blindline pilots.

Anyway, to go back to your original point, you were struggling to see how JSS could squeeze more out of the workforce. You see the answer now?
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:23
  #5073 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.
My point is itís a mathematical impossibility to do more than six east coast trips in a month or five trips constructed of anything longer. Many of our colleagues are already working these kinds of rosters so how can JSS make it any worse? Additionally if life is now going to be so brutal under JSS then how come one of the things that was delaying it was that we required more pilots to make it work, not less?
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:31
  #5074 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,181
Originally Posted by Riskybis View Post

I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open


Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....




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Old 8th Oct 2018, 14:51
  #5075 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Hi again, just to add my post wasnít a ďpopĒ at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think ďalright for themĒ with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I havenít looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully youíll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...Iím not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickledís take on how it will out for many of them ...but since Iíve yet to even see a dummy roster Iím only guessing....




no offence taken mate , we are all good . Good post btw
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 15:03
  #5076 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 16:12
  #5077 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Rex

At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.

I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I donít think Iíll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 16:57
  #5078 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 40
Posts: 473
Well this makes for depressing reading. Anyone who is considering a junior command, I can tell you donít touch it with a barge pole. As soon as my freeze is up Iíll be going RHS LH or if the company allows, part time and Iíll keep the command. The only way I have coped is because blindlines work me less but Iíll be dammed if I am going to work to the level of a trip line holder and take all the crap.

Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was ďitís legalĒ yep but not under bidline rule.......
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 17:04
  #5079 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
I’m still sceptical Bex, after all if JSS is going to be so incredibly efficient and able to work us to within an inch of our lives, then why are we right now embarking on another massive recruitment drive (I’m told 2019 will be possibly a new record for numbers)? There aren’t that many people retiring.

(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 17:31
  #5080 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 40
Posts: 473
Oh no that’s it. Job’s F£&ked ��

Look forward to it.



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