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by PM........
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’Morning Buter...good to finally meet you in person the other week ..
The coffee hasn’t kicked in yet so I may be resistant to detail but a quick 1 minute skim read of iBid final rosters shows at least one 744 P1 with 6 trips completely contained within October, though the individual is so far above CAP they may have deliberately loaded their line up or have been RA’d. It certainly looks like Bidline rule 3.5.4.3 hasn’t been “deployed” or wasn’t in play for some reason.
Even if it’s the case that you don’t ever have to do a 6 trip month there are certainly some who do and for many 5 trips will be the norm on at least some of the Longhaul Fleets, which I suspect may come as a surprise to a few of our readers and prospective joiners.
ATB..
Just had a row of trip/2 days off/trip rolling from last month. Totally knackered. Just woke from a mammoth 13 hour coma back home after busting through my two (very loud) alarm clocks
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Nice to meet you as well, sir.
I‘ve had a look through the C744 rosters and some of them look suicide inducing. However, very few of them were in the realm of the 5 trip rule. If you look, many of the trips were picked up at stage 2, IOT or EOT. There’s no protection, and there shouldn’t be, from a pilot loading up his/her roster as much as they want.
Sooooo happy to be on the tanker...
Cheers
Buter
Many overlook the quality of a month isn’t about the 1st to the 31st. Your body doesn’t work 1st to the 31st. You can have a nice little compact rolling roster of pain from the 15th of one month to the 14th of the next and then a shockingly luxurious row of 4/5 days off block mid following month. Which by then consists of crying in a corner and sucking your thumb for the first two days
Ouch...
There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.
I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.
There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.
I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.
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Ouch...
There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.
I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.
There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.
I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.
Last edited by Wireless; 16th Oct 2018 at 17:26.
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I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.
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Does BA have a scheduling agreement with regards to how many days off you get between long haul trips? And if so, are the days off to EASA spec or are they slightly more generous, say, no report before 0700 local?
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I believe you have hit the nail firmly on the head there Wiggy. I see people who have come to the jumbo from short haul, or have just joined from other airlines. They think it is great and say it is a breeze. I always say to them “Yep, that is because it takes about five years for the long term fatigue to really hit you, but it you it will.” They don’t believe me, but give them five years and they’ll be begging for part time or a return to short haul because the current work rate is beyond what the human body can reasonably be expected to do.
What’s not my fault is it’s changed (ing) , optimising since I’ve arrived. What existed when I signed up is moving around under my feet a little. Bidline as a concept is (was) good, don’t get me wrong. But I am surprised at whoever agreed to the the whole CAP thing back in t’ day, emphasis on the number CAP is/ lack of blocks off after LH had their pants pulled right down. Maybe folk who’d never worked outside of BA and they thought they were onto a good number? God knows.
I know having been elsewhere flying life can be really amazingly bad outside of BA (been there, worn the cheap t shirt :o ). But that’s not really any kind of answer. Less gets said/ admitted but the ability to recover or actually use time off after trips can also be a lot better.
All the details and why’s and wherefores are by the by to me. It’s hardly entirely BA’s fault anyway. Money makers will always do what money makers will do. Business attracts naturally greedy people to the top table. And they will do what they will do. Squeeze. The whole idea is we need folk to protect the greedy ones from running amok, then it works well for everyone...
We do have a regulator. I personally think the regulators are a circus act with protecting health in the flying workplace. They’re fine keen about defining the high health standards they want yet notable by their sqirmyness when it comes to having the the brass balls to address the causes of issues the medical lot say kills people. Smoking ban? Yeah fine - ban that as it doesn’t harm the bottom line of big aviation firms. Fly with booze in your body? Oh no, ban that, that’s unsafe, plus the public friggin hate it like the devil. Easy one that to pop a rule on. Land with sleep deprivation equivalent to 5 glasses of wine? “Oh, Er, mm, what’s that over there? Moving on.... I know let’s call this line in the sand, “fatigue” and paint it into the corner along with what causes stress in flying (another thorny one). It’ll be a vague untouchable unreachable thing, a bit like unicorn tears. Yes, Lets define it as something impossible to get. All the rest is “tiredness” and, well, that’s easy. That’s just like you get after a fat man Sunday lunch. Yes those pilots shift reversing are all “tired” that’s it. We’ll also chuck in an after-the-fact approach - make up a few touchy feely “support” and monitoring systems. Essentially means airlines can quietly file reports of this mythical “fatigue” in the grey tin file unit by the desk. Means we don’t have to address the causes and look like a real British regulator anytime the press ask us about it. Job done. We can’t possibly admit the current set up with aviation needs a big kick in the balls”. Bloody useless...
I tend to look if I can enjoy home life and going to work. Im a bear of simple brain and my small brain is just telling me I’m frigging knackered
Can you tell? Last edited by Wireless; 10th Oct 2018 at 22:51.
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One good thing about BA is that your roster will not be changed without your consent once the final rosters have been published.
BLR requires 2 days off between LH flights, however 3 years ago a temporary alleviation was granted allowing BA to assign trips to EASA rules in some circumstances. This means that a trip with no EASA days off requirement could be assigned against your will that returns the day before a trip on your roster or more commonly there will be a gap of only 1 day between a trip on your line and a force assigned trip. An Africa and some Middle East trips trip have no days off requirement under EASA as there is no relevant time change, so back to back trips can be force assigned.
The recent discussion on this thread about the number of trips on a LH line is very important. 6 LH trips of 3 days will take a pilot above the required amount of work allowing the excess hours to be exchanged for money in subsequent months (or bidding to fly less in a subsequent month with the significant risk of being force assigned a trip because there is a gap on your line). The maths is simple: 6 LH trips of 3 days take up 18 days, the return sectors will include a fatiguing flight on the vast majority of occasions, the first day off at home the pilots feels like death, that is 6 more days, the following day the pilot feels like death warmed up, that is another 6 days. In a 30 day month there are no days off at home when the pilot feels fine. Add cumulative effects of repeated months with 5 or more trips and there is no lifestyle left and the pilot is wondering why he feels wound up like a taught bow and is shouting at his/her kids for no good reason. This also leads to being unable to sleep for more than a few hours at a time, despite being unbelievably tired.
The BA 747 Classic fleet proved that pilots can't endure the kind of roster that junior 747-400 pilots are now suffering. The Classic experience lead to the "5 trip rule" that Buter has quoted above, however this rule will not be incorporated in the new JSS rostering system that takes over from the January rosters.
There are BA 747-400 pilots in their mid-thirties who are unable to cope and have opted for part time. Sadly the company is unable to grant part time in many cases due to the extraordinary shortage of pilots.
BA has much to offer but the pilots work extremely hard. It is an incredibly profitable airline and this is not due to generosity to it's staff.
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Interesting post wireless you could do with a holiday. The sleepy folk are of the view that the worst problem for Nigel's is that you very rarely work the same schedule, so planning rest periods get very difficult albeit each individual manages it in their own different way. So a shift worker working earlies / lates / nights or days / nights know exactly what to do as there isn't that much variety. Then Crews have to deal with TZ transitions (sorry to say EASA FTL is much better than CAP371 in this respect), jet lag, delays, commuting, other hobbies / jobs etc.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.
But I am surprised at whoever agreed to the the whole CAP thing back in t’ day, emphasis on the number CAP is/ lack of blocks off after LH had their pants pulled right down.
1. It was possible to work up to 15 hours below CAP whenever you fancied or needed to, safe in the knowledge that BA couldn’t stick another trip on your line, regardless of whether you had banked hours or not..OTOH the “Martinis” who wanted to pick up the leftover work for cash were nowhere near 900 hours so they could pick up the slack..
That flexibility has gone.
2. BA was willing to run the pilot establishment to some extent to allow point 1.
They are not now.
3. Less frequent services often meant longer trips with embedded shuttles (Up to a week in the likes of HRE or CCS, with a shuttle somewhere on just one or two of those days) . In other words a significant amount of credit towards CAP was earned downroute sitting on your backside by a pool, on a beach or playing golf (i.e. possibly the lifestyle some who are joining are expecting still to find at BA...well ..)...
There are a handful of those sort of trips still around (e.g. NAS with a shuttle, perhaps some longer slips on the 787, Some Caribbean and the 9 day SYD trip on the 777) OTOH long trips don’t appeal to some people but they have their uses for generating downtime whilst still on the company’s dollar, however because of the increase in frequency of services over the years there’s now a heck of a lot of three day stuff which only earns about 20% of CAP....which somebody has to do....
Now of course if
JSS comes in and if it works as advertised things might change...Last edited by wiggy; 10th Oct 2018 at 15:53.
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Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
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Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
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I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
It’s a trip preferencing system where supposedly you can express options for trips, days off, start times...blah blah..system works it’s way down the pilot seniority list trying to satisfy preferences in some way shape or form...the system is supposed to be introduced in about 4 weeks time so that the rosters it produces will be the one’s we are working to w.e.f. 1 Jan.
However:
At the time of writing there has been a first attempt at a dry run where there were insufficient participants to produce meaningful output, so we have no idea what those rosters would have looked like.
We then had a second dry run where there seems to have been a problem producing results..we are promised them any day now but as of yet nothing - so nobody has any idea what those rosters would have looked like.
We have been promised a third dry run before the system goes live for the January bid.......time is short.....
And now you know about as much about JSS as most of us do......
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
For those still wearing rose tinted glasses a warning.. Longhaul at BA is not all 10-14 hour plus sector lengths such as Singapore, Buenos Aries and Hong Kong etc
..Leaving aside the occasional outliers that appear on the 777 or 744 rosters as daytrips such as Madrid and Moscow BA longhaul covers the likes of:
Tel Aviv ( 5 hours, plus or minus), Cairo, (sometimes, 5 hours ish)
Abuja/Lagos/Accra/ Boston,/Montreal and countless others at around 6 hours, plus or minus.
Now the senior guys might pick up two or three Longish sector round trips in the month and then perhaps a short trip to finesse the hours..that works fine....OTOH if you get clobbered with a month of low flight time trips you need to do a lot of days and nights at work to achieve the target hours.
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Oct 2018 at 06:05.
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I’ll hopefully be moving over to Long Haul in two years time however looking at the rosters of the junior trash on LH leads me to believe that 75% Right to Request will be essential in order to cope and have a life outside of work as a bloke in my fourties by the time it comes around. With the process running at over a year from application to the part time being granted that means possibly banging in a request next year. Whether I’ll be able to afford it I’m not even sure but one thing is for sure, I’m not working myself into an early death just to line the pockets of Alex Cruz and Willie Walsh.
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Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.
Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.
What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.
Last edited by Wireless; 10th Oct 2018 at 22:02.
How on earth has BALPA been allowed to agree such punishment on the rostering systems , especially in LH. I retired on the B744 when BA were only allowed to roster 4 Atlantic crossing trips per Bid Period. You could bid for more in MU1 or Open Time, but that was your choice.
Preumably todays pilots are suddenly immune to fatigue as far as BA/BALPA are concerned. And if you did agree to help BA on last minute uncovered trips you could pick up £2000ish overtime to Syd.
Preumably todays pilots are suddenly immune to fatigue as far as BA/BALPA are concerned. And if you did agree to help BA on last minute uncovered trips you could pick up £2000ish overtime to Syd.
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Because Balpa in BA are A) Sh1t scared of the company and B) only interested in protecting the senior Long Haul boys and their terms and conditions and the rest of us can go hang (especially Short Haul as the general assumption is that nobody in BA really wants to be a Short Haul Pilot and everyone wants to be on a Long Haul fleet long term anyway so it’s an easy give away for concessions to the company). These are the reasons I won’t give Balpa a penny, go on tell me I’m wrong.
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The union in this country is fecking useless. They dally and fiddle. You’ve only got to read the magazine to see they’re nibbling away at the small stuff whilst the big stuff sails by. They’re like a workman on the titanic worrying about wonky table legs. The rest of the world has become more enlightened and forward thinking regarding lifestyle issues and their impact on mortality and health.
Aviation. An arrogant hypocritical industry with regulators full of old flying boys who don’t like change. The attitude hasn’t changed since the 1930s. To prove how full of it they are, if damage to the public were a factor, whatever practice would be nipped in the bud. If it were found that running an engine beyond limits would blow it up, there’d be a rule. But when it comes to pilots health? The response is “it’s down to the pilots”. So compared to the public, you’re sacrificial. And the best bit is, pilots being institutionalised in their professionalism will absolutely not let this affect work. In fact, it’s their private life and own well being that suffers. Pilots will literally sacrifice their well being at the alter of their profession.
We”ve all seen it. The little talks during SEP about “managing fatigue” or “stress”. The pointing out there’s “support” for mental health. As if we’re meant to be wowed by this approach?? Yup, it’s down to you. We want the high standards, high medical levels but we’re blowed if we’re going to help you stand a chance of staying well by addressing the factors. That’s gonna cost too much and would mean the whole system needs rebooting (sharp intake of breath). Thats it, straight out of the 19th century. That’s it, the best a modern regulator and it’s industry can come up with in supposedly the most advanced forward thinking industry around. To paraphrase a film, Rumour control, here are the facts. Stress, fatigue and sleep deprivation shorten your life. And we let these clowns get away with this without blowing the whistle. Like I said, it’s not entirely BA’s fault. We have the CAA for a reason and they’re failing at keeping pace with the 21st century medical and wellbeing view outside of aviation.
Aviation. An arrogant hypocritical industry with regulators full of old flying boys who don’t like change. The attitude hasn’t changed since the 1930s. To prove how full of it they are, if damage to the public were a factor, whatever practice would be nipped in the bud. If it were found that running an engine beyond limits would blow it up, there’d be a rule. But when it comes to pilots health? The response is “it’s down to the pilots”. So compared to the public, you’re sacrificial. And the best bit is, pilots being institutionalised in their professionalism will absolutely not let this affect work. In fact, it’s their private life and own well being that suffers. Pilots will literally sacrifice their well being at the alter of their profession.
We”ve all seen it. The little talks during SEP about “managing fatigue” or “stress”. The pointing out there’s “support” for mental health. As if we’re meant to be wowed by this approach?? Yup, it’s down to you. We want the high standards, high medical levels but we’re blowed if we’re going to help you stand a chance of staying well by addressing the factors. That’s gonna cost too much and would mean the whole system needs rebooting (sharp intake of breath). Thats it, straight out of the 19th century. That’s it, the best a modern regulator and it’s industry can come up with in supposedly the most advanced forward thinking industry around. To paraphrase a film, Rumour control, here are the facts. Stress, fatigue and sleep deprivation shorten your life. And we let these clowns get away with this without blowing the whistle. Like I said, it’s not entirely BA’s fault. We have the CAA for a reason and they’re failing at keeping pace with the 21st century medical and wellbeing view outside of aviation.