Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Reply

Old 6th Jul 2018, 11:42
  #4921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 781
The long commute has been going on for a long time in BA. Some 20 odd years ago as a junior B744 Capt. I turned up for a Dtw trip and was joined by the co-pilot at briefing. (2 pilot sector) First he got up my nose moaning about going to Dtw, he was very senior and spent his time in high allowance trips to Hkg and Nrt etc.
At top of climb out, I noticed his eyes drooping and less than total concentration. On asking if he felt OK, he said he was very tired as he had arrived overnight from Newark USA where he lived, on the jump seat, and 4 hours before our flight. !! I wasn't impressed.
cessnapete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 12:25
  #4922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 23
90 minutes is not a long commute to LHR. It is still uncertain exactly how this will be resolved, but it is clear that anyone thinking of joining should very seriously consider where they may need to live.
Pickled is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 12:52
  #4923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Planet Earth (sometimes)
Posts: 4,968
Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
90 minutes is not a long commute to LHR. It is still uncertain exactly how this will be resolved, but it is clear that anyone thinking of joining should very seriously consider where they may need to live.

Yep...On another forum some kind individual posted a map showing the 90 minute (driving) isochrone ( no, I hadn't until then either...) centered on LHR....I think that must have come as a shock to more than few..

Link to the charting website here..

https://app.traveltimeplatform.com/#
wiggy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 13:36
  #4924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 37
Posts: 344
My commute takes about 1:10 - 1:15 most of the time but according to that map I am not within 90 minutes. More to the point if BA are so concerned why do they continue to roster me trips with the minimum time at base. 12hr 30 minus the 3 hours commuting (still within the rules you see) 9:30 rest really........strangely they are not bothered about that. Secondly who if anyone will be within 90 minutes when they dig up the M25 to build the third runway. Probably not an issue as we will all be retired but itís a thought.
bex88 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 14:45
  #4925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
My commute takes about 1:10 - 1:15 most of the time but according to that map I am not within 90 minutes. More to the point if BA are so concerned why do they continue to roster me trips with the minimum time at base. 12hr 30 minus the 3 hours commuting (still within the rules you see) 9:30 rest really........strangely they are not bothered about that. Secondly who if anyone will be within 90 minutes when they dig up the M25 to build the third runway. Probably not an issue as we will all be retired but itís a thought.
bex88
They are not worried about you they are worried about long distance commuters (albeit you could argue is that 90 mins by road or plane?)
The sleepy scientists will tell you there is no difference driving another 90 minutes for 3 hours rather than watching Eastenders and Coronation Street then driving 90 mins.
What they will be looking for is unreasonable commuting e.g. over night as per the previous comments, or long distance then hanging around in crew rooms etc.
It can't be any coincidence that the two (may have changed) UK AOC's with approved FRMS both have commuting protocols with their Crew members.
What "they" want from you is for "we" BA and you as a crewmember being concerned about your colleague having commuted all night/day then undertaking long FDP / delays / bad weather at destination etc.
My own personal opinion is that the majority of BA crew members manage their commuting, as always it's the usual 5% that Airline management spend 95% of their time dealing with (probably even less at BA)
GKOC41 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 14:53
  #4926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,462
Short of putting electronic tags on the ankles of BA pilots, it's nigh on impossible for the company to monitor ones travel movements to such a degree. Commuters will still commute and there has been a recommendation in CAP371 long before EASA was created, that suggested that travel time should be limited to 90 mins and this has been causally overlooked by some for a long time.

The only source of information that BA could access with ease, is ones use of their staff travel and especially on BA flights. However if you booked a standby ticket on another airline, would BA have easy access to the listing history without involving the other airline? Those not using staff travel or traveling by road will still have a great degree of carte blanche with how they choose to plan their journey to LHR, with them being totally off the radar, so to speak.

There has been a large degree of trust placed by airlines that their pilots professionalism will extend to how they plan their travel arrangements to work, however trust is really all they can exercise. I can't see this changing anytime soon at BA or any other airline for that matter.
Mister Geezer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jul 2018, 16:21
  #4927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by Pickled View Post
The net seems to be closing in on commuters who normally travel more than 90 minutes to work, by any mode of transport......Anyone considering joining BA should plan on a requirement to live within 90 minutes travelling time of report.
More realistically translated as; BA has a bee in its bonnet at the moment about commuting which it has monitored for a short period of time in order to satisfy the regulator that they are taking the issue seriously. BA has gone through the motions and made all the right noises after which a blind eye will be turned (because realistically they can do nothing else) until the next auditing period with the same results. Rinse and repeat.
RexBanner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 7th Jul 2018, 18:25
  #4928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Planet Earth (sometimes)
Posts: 4,968
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


More realistically translated as; BA has a bee in its bonnet at the moment about commuting ....

From what I've heard it is not just "commuting" from home to work that BA have taken a dislike to. I'm not sure if you've seen the latest newsletter/headsup about this out of BALPA but it seems the company has also taken issue with some end of holiday travel arrangments/timings.. " Not quite sure what the problem is but it may be BA's handling/understanding of the EASA rules regarding acclimatisation.

In any event it does seem BA have found an excuse to really look hard at any use of Staff Travel by crew members, whether you are off duty or even on leave...
wiggy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 04:45
  #4929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 579
Lightbulb

Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but it’s been found that it’s legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
RexBanner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 07:54
  #4930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Planet Earth (sometimes)
Posts: 4,968
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but it’s been found that it’s legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.

Yep, I heard ( and I guess you did too) that opinion expressed when "we" brought in EASA FTLs at BA - Given the language used when the company incorporated the rules into the Ops manual (not staying silent on an issue, the use of "should"/"would"/"must") some aspects of the rules have the potential to impinge on leave. I know it suited some in the office (both at BA and at BALPA) to leave it as a grey area because of the implications for the company of being seen to control leave days and the BALPA classic of "don't ask a question if you think you might like the answer...unfortunately for both sides it looks like the audit has shone a light on exactly this issue and some individuals have ended up in the doo daahh...

What do you reckon the solution is? Flying crew (flight and cabin) wanting to use their two weeks leave for a two week holiday simply having to take that time off in Europe/Africa/ the Gulf only...or the company granting extra leave/wrap days for travelling, or the company having a rewrite of the FTLs??

( Edit to add: Anyone wondering what this has to do with DEP recruitment - BA have been quite happy to use the staff travel package, and/or the ability to "commute" by air", as a recruitment carrot....)

Last edited by wiggy; 8th Jul 2018 at 08:16.
wiggy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 09:01
  #4931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 538
Just to clarify any confusion that some people may have, it is the fact that BA were interpreting the EASA rules to say you had to be acclimatized to your home base at report for your next duty. If you had been on holiday on the West coast or down in Oz say, you would need potentially 5 nights at base to acclimatize. That would have to come off your holiday time. In addition, due to the vagaries of staff travel, even when confirmed, you couldnít cut it too fine, and would have to allow a day or so leeway. That could mean, a 2 week holiday actually only being 1 week away.
Thankfully, someone in BA saw sense and thereís was a shift in interpretation to you only have to be able to legally operate your next duty after your holiday in a non acclimatized state.
hunterboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 09:02
  #4932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 579
Word on the street (as others have stated before and confirmed by discussion with DFO) is that this is purely about a hardcore minority of long haul commuters positioning themselves overnight then reporting to duty same day as arrival at Heathrow. If that’s true I can’t see much of a problem with the company’s attitude unless it’s the thin end of the wedge and they start coming after everybody else. I can’t see that’s realistic though given that greater than three quarters of BA crew probably commute in some form or another (ie outside the 90 minutes) and that BA’s own 2 hour to the car park call out time on reserve contravenes what it technically means to be rested in OMA.

Last edited by RexBanner; 8th Jul 2018 at 09:43.
RexBanner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 10:54
  #4933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
Shoot me a link to that if you have it handy, dude.

B
Buter is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 15:40
  #4934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
Not heard of that one it's also likely that BA crew have more leave than the WTD minimum.
2 things to remember.
BA have to protect the BA brand.
BA have a duty to protect their Staff members.
Its now covered in both Operator and Crew members responsibilities.
The biggest risk for many crew members is not whilst on duty, but the drive home.
Commuting becomes an issue for all commuters when an individual [email protected]@ks it up.
GKOC41 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 17:16
  #4935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by GKOC41 View Post
it's also likely that BA crew have more leave than the WTD minimum.
Irrelevant as this impinges on every potential leave block, the legislation does not cease to apply if you have greater than a set amount of leave. Trust me, this came up at easyJet in particular. The legislation exists and, although I post an inordinate amount on PPRuNe, Iím not quite sad enough (yet) to be trawling through relevant EU Directives to post links on PPRuNe in my time off. Itís there though, if you fancy you can do the spade work and have a look.
RexBanner is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 19:04
  #4936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.

Just to say that the rumour mill for a long time has had it that almost 50 % of LH's LH crews live in Majorca.....

Same thing here - everyone reckons, and I've no reason to doubt it, that the first few departures out of NCE, MRS and TLN every morning are more than 50% AF staff commuting up to CDG and ORY...

Just saying - because of it suits AF and LH, then It's highly unlikely to legally impact BA crews in the future....
Hussar 54 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 8th Jul 2018, 23:01
  #4937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 256
Blimey.....I saw the initial notice about this last week (or was it an email?).....anyway.....all getting a bit heavy this isn't it!

Thanks for the link Wiggy, I've just had a look and found I'm just inside the magic 90 minute net. Do we think this is a case of a few idiots spoiling it for everyone else or is this just BA being heavy handed? Didn't like the tone of what I read from the company at all.

Having commuted by air in a previous airline many moons ago I know how tough it is trying to keep the plates spinning. There were a few back then that took the p*** and in the end it nearly ruined it for the rest of us. Luckily the CC got involved and came up with a sensible solution with the company. Hopefully this will get resolved without public executions on the T5 roundabout!



Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Yep...On another forum some kind individual posted a map showing the 90 minute (driving) isochrone ( no, I hadn't until then either...) centered on LHR....I think that must have come as a shock to more than few..

Link to the charting website here..

https://app.traveltimeplatform.com/#
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 9th Jul 2018, 13:22
  #4938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 538
I think the last execution would be the manager that stirred up this hornets nest. I can imagine many crew following the letter of the EASA regs and OMA and the operation grinding to a halt, especially down route at disturbed rest in hotels.
hunterboy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jul 2018, 18:30
  #4939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,081
The EASA FTL issue in relation to leave has been tested with the CAA by another airline where the same question had arisen. The definitions of this in ORO.FTL.105 are quite specific in that you can only move between conditions of acclimatisation and non-acclimatisation via a duty, which is then defined as a task that the crew member performs for the operator. You therefore cannot become non acclimatised as a result of travel around your leave under the EASA FTL scheme and so insisting on the full minimum time at base after leisure travel is not a requirement. Clearly none of this removes the individual crew member's responsibilities (ORO.FTL.115) to be adequately rested before their duty and to plan and use their rest before a duty. However, any operator seeking to impose MTB between a period of leave and your next duty is on a very sticky wicket.

Commuting covers the same, but there can be no question that some current commuting practices of which I think we've probably all seen examples over the years are pretty outrageous. I always used to suggest that if you had to explain your movements over the last 24 hours over the PA to your passengers then if you could do so without all of them wanting to get off your aircraft as a result of what you'd just told them, you were probably on the side of reasonableness. I can't imagine many passengers staying seated to fly with you if you'd just arrived four hours earlier from a commute in from the US. Your colleagues probably wouldn't be too chuffed either. The folk who turned up and demanded first rest in the bunk due to the length of their journey to work were taking the p*** out of their colleagues, I always thought.
Flightrider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Jul 2018, 14:54
  #4940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: santiago
Posts: 40
Hi all!
On july the 3rd I had my assessment day 1 and I passed it.
I received a mail stating that no slots were available for day 2 and that they will be in touch with me soon.
Any idea how long could take that?

Regards

Angelo26
angelo26 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service