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Old 15th Oct 2018, 11:37
  #5201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 590
I cannot see there being a great deal of pressure for BA to increase super junior command pay. As far as they are concerned, you join BA as an FO and serve your time as an FO until you gain the seniority for a short haul command perhaps seven or eight years later, by which time your command pay would be more competitive. If a new pilot is lucky enough to join at a time when command seniority is unusually low, they will see it as that new pilot being in the right place at the right time, and so obtaining a super junior command with its associated payrise. There possibly is some pressure to increase junior FO pay, which may then increase the low end command salary as FO pay is currently 75% of command pay across all paypoints.

More likely, if it is ever determined that there is a problem with recruitment numbers or junior pilot retention, then I would predict some kind of bonus payment after x years within the company, rather than a skewing of the salary scale.

This period of super junior short haul commands is almost certainly a blip. We had a recruitment ban for many years, and then suddenly we are in a period of rapid recruitment and postings and promotions movement. As that stabilises, short haul command seniorities will rise again.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 11:52
  #5202 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: UK
Age: 28
Posts: 43
Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt?
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?

Also there are pay scales listed on pilotjobsnetwork, but when you upgrade from FO to captain do you start with the Year 1 salary or do you count the FO years too? i.e. If you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
Because from what I understand from the ppjn page the FO salary passes the year 1 captain's salary after around 14 years and the time to command on LH is over 15 years.

From the outside the whole system at BA looks daunting, like you get the short end of the stick for the first 10 years or so and only then does it start to pay off.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 12:06
  #5203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Originally Posted by appleACE View Post
Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt
You can bid LH FO to SH cpt.

Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?
You can bid to go SH cpt to LH capt.

(health warning..that’s how it works under the current agreement)

you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
.
year 14..you “slide across” pay points...

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Old 15th Oct 2018, 12:30
  #5204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post
As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you don’t mind not seeing your family for the first 5..
I indentify with your post and found it interesting. Just a point I think worth highlighting. I’m junior LH. Just a point of fairness to senior LH in trying to be representative in what I’ve noticed.

For folk looking in from the outside, CAP doesn’t drop as you become more senior. There’s no senior full timers flying 3 short trips a month for example. Chatting to friends outside of it this misconception does seem to exist - “get in a few years and write your own roster” type of gig.

Previously under the old (bidline) system you could bid for lines that had a higher amount of credit efficient trips. These type trips involved more hours over a shorter time frame. But this is in context. You can only work with what’s provided by BA on the dinner plate. Granted, you have more control the more senior you are, and JSS is being watched with interest to see how this is affected once the line system disappears.

The ability to afford part time on PP24 aside, I’ve rarely seen full time senior LHs who are away a huge amount less from home than the juniors. Many still have the trip/2 day off/trip rash somewhere on a leave free line on my fleet. Granted they might fly to less unpopular places and have a couple of weekends off. But only they can answer whether that’s a tradable commodity with how bushed they are overall. That many are going for part time would say otherwise.

Certainly FA and problems with using bank, have caused dismay from everyone. I mentioned in a previous post, and certainly seems to have been highlighted by a couple of retired posters - that when the agreements were forged, the system worked due to the then landscape of the BA operation. BA, naturally doing what businesses do have prodded and poked around, discovering chinks in the armour, elegantly finding work arounds to exploit naively created thin walls and side effects of the system.

A new rostering interface could be (I say could be, I don’t know) well placed to push further against these weak areas of the bidline rules. Just like any business, they will do what money makers will do. I’ve alluded to some of my personal opinions - I think this new efficiency is highlighting fundamental issues in the industry rather than my fixating and targeting my opinions solely at company level.

I think it quite telling that part time is something highly sought, not just in BA. This fact completely disarms a company convincingly asserting aircrew are money driven entities using lifestyle as a bargaining chip. Quite the opposite, it starkly tells a different story. Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.


I always have to remember there’s plenty of folk who’ve never worked outside of BA and until recent years perhaps limited experience of what life is like when you butt up against the unsavoury ramifications of “efficient” FTL construction. At that point do you target your dismay with the local rules or with the regulations that allow these practices? I’d argue for long term protection of aircrew wellbeing you have to tackle both - two pronged. At the local coal face level and also at the wider mother hen level.

Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 13:31.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 13:42
  #5205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 590
Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.
I could not agree more!
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 18:48
  #5206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,634
Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 20:08
  #5207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley View Post
Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
Thats a fair point and would be wrong if I disagreed.

People are different and of course there are folk perfectly happy on full time with various companies who request part time for other reasons other than to do with health or wellbeing.

I honestly think there’s enough part time requests across the UK airline industry in recent times that are down to the job affecting employees adversely, not just by fatigue, such that it’s more than notable.

I mentioned fatigue but that is far from the only factor. There’s chronic stress and it’s associated symptoms, homelife disruption, health issues due to shift work.


Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 22:19.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 12:37
  #5208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 7
We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 12:53
  #5209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,496
Do you know many long tours were to be had and were the long tours restricted by any inhibitors?

If there aren’t many and there weren’t subject to an inhibitor then I guess they’ve been corralled by the senior guys....one of the potential pitfalls of JSS “as is”....

(For those not into the language “inhibiters” are restrictions placed into JSS that effect certain trips (e.g. Singapore,) to prevent a handful of senior individuals getting all the plum work..e.g. stop somebody bidding for 3 or 4 Singapore’s in a month. )







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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:02
  #5210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 742
Originally Posted by NoCtot View Post
We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
Exactly why I’m escaping down to Gatwick, it’s a known quantity and have a bolt hole down there I can use for peanuts. The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didn’t and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:33
  #5211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


....The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didn’t and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.
I don’t think I’d be breaching any rules if I said that according to a source on Yammer it was about 65%, plus or minus not a lot for both seats on the LHR Airbus Fleet.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:36
  #5212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
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Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer it’s become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:42
  #5213 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer it’s become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!
Well I’m sure somebody will be along again the t*** about this again but as I recall it:

1. Those formerly at the top of BA BALPA decided to effectively combine a vote on a rostering system with a vote on an element of our pay.....I have to say that IMHO was not that BACC’s finest hour.

2. The membership then voted .....

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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:54
  #5214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
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Purely a facetious comment on this occasion Wiggy in the light of previous discussion.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:57
  #5215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Purely a facetious comment on this occasion Wiggy in the light of previous discussion.

Understood..good luck at Gatwick
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 14:11
  #5216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Just checked out the JSS yammer. 6 trips/ 2 days off plus leave on the dry run type thing.

Reading the Yammer comments is very similar to reading those now famous amazon reviews of using “Veet for men” on your gentleman vegetables.

Wonder of the lack lack of participation affected that or if the AI is doing exactly as the AI would do (I think calling it intelligent probably a stretch)?
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 14:25
  #5217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hundred Acre Wood
Posts: 257
Originally Posted by NoCtot View Post
Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me)
I couldn’t help wondering, are you in the top third (over 67% behind you) or the top quarter (over 75% behind you)?
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 14:48
  #5218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Doug E Style View Post


I couldn’t help wondering, are you in the top third (over 67% behind you) or the top quarter (over 75% behind you)?
hahaha nice one, that is the current SH fatigue starting to kick in ;-)

67% behind me indeed.

All the rosters are now published internally. The junior guys on LH and especially the B777 are getting absolutely hammered, really do feel sorry for them. Those rosters are just pure evil and unbearable (6,7 and even 8 trips a month).

Last edited by NoCtot; 16th Oct 2018 at 15:07.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 14:52
  #5219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 742
Reading Yammer it reminds me very much of the South Park “The Human CentiPad” episode mocking Apple’s Terms and Conditions (and the lack of reading thereof before clicking agree) whereby the users are turned into a Human Centipede (it was in the small print) with Steve Jobs, unable to comprehend the discomfort and dissatisfaction of those people now stitched together, forcefully and scornfully making the point to them that “you agreed to this!!!”

Last edited by RexBanner; 16th Oct 2018 at 15:03.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 15:12
  #5220 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Reading Yammer it reminds me very much of the South Park “The Human CentiPad” episode mocking Apple’s Terms and Conditions (and the lack of reading thereof before clicking agree) whereby the users are turned into a Human Centipede (it was in the small print) with Steve Jobs, unable to comprehend the discomfort and dissatisfaction of those people now stitched together, forcefully and scornfully making the point to them that “you agreed to this!!!”

ha ha!

like I say put me in mind of the veet reviews. For example this one pasted from amazon. I found that the letters “JSS” and “roster” could be comfortably substituted into the review and it still bared a striking resemblance to the comments on yammer . Particularly heeding the lesson regarding the rules. Indulge me if you will...

“Being a loose cannon who does not play by the rules the first thing I did was ignore the warning and smear JSS all over my (unmentionables). The rosters I knew and loved are gone now. In their place is a maroon coloured bag of agony which sends stabs of pain up my body every time it grazes against my thigh or an article of clothing. I am suffering so that you don't have to. Heed my lesson. “
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