Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 14th Oct 2018, 00:08
  #5181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Because Balpa in BA are A) Sh1t scared of the company and B) only interested in protecting the senior Long Haul boys and their terms and conditions and the rest of us can go hang (especially Short Haul as the general assumption is that nobody in BA really wants to be a Short Haul Pilot and everyone wants to be on a Long Haul fleet long term anyway so it’s an easy give away for concessions to the company). These are the reasons I won’t give Balpa a penny, go on tell me I’m wrong.
Well, that’s easy enough. You re wrong. In fact, you’re wrong on a grand scale.

Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.

Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. We’ve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. There’s a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?

You don’t want to give BALPA a penny? That’s your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothers’ coat tails. Can I assume you’ll be happy to accept the pay rise we’re currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.

Bash the company or the union with facts and you won’t hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and I’ll counter.

All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ain’t great, anymore, but it ain’t complete shite, either. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s a step up from most places. It’s all your call.

Cheers, y’all.

Buter

Buter is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 06:36
  #5182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 66
Flightpattern

Hi mate can you please empty your inbox apparently itís full as my message wonít send regarding BA stuff over PM
Riskybis is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 08:11
  #5183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Buter View Post

Well, thatís easy enough. You re wrong. In fact, youíre wrong on a grand scale.

Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.

Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. Weíve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. Thereís a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?

You donít want to give BALPA a penny? Thatís your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothersí coat tails. Can I assume youíll be happy to accept the pay rise weíre currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.

Bash the company or the union with facts and you wonít hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and Iíll counter.

All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ainít great, anymore, but it ainít complete shite, either. Itís definitely not for everyone, but itís a step up from most places. Itís all your call.

Cheers, yíall.

Buter

Hey Buter, what is it in your opinion that has made it not so great anymore?

I dont know if this is true but was told by an ex BA pilot on 777 that BA short haul is now probably the toughest gig in the UK, would you agree with that statement?

Is the pay rise happening anytime soon and will it be better than Easy, Ryanair etc?
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:41
  #5184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: uk
Age: 51
Posts: 89
Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.

Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..

Icanseeclearly is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:52
  #5185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 45
Posts: 209
Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley View Post
Interesting post wireless you could do with a holiday. The sleepy folk are of the view that the worst problem for Nigel's is that you very rarely work the same schedule, so planning rest periods get very difficult albeit each individual manages it in their own different way. So a shift worker working earlies / lates / nights or days / nights know exactly what to do as there isn't that much variety. Then Crews have to deal with TZ transitions (sorry to say EASA FTL is much better than CAP371 in this respect), jet lag, delays, commuting, other hobbies / jobs etc.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.
Sorry, Mr Angry, but absolutely not. How can you do that with regular 8 hour time shifts on the West Coast? Get up at midnight with nothing to do and nowhere to go? Recipe for mental health problems long term. Add to that the fact that staying on UK time does not absolve you of the 5-8 night sleep (UK time) that you miss almost completely every month whilst flying to or from various places, making staying on UK time both pointless and impossible...
I'm Off! is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:57
  #5186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly View Post
Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo canít really complain because you arenít invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.

Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I havenít done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I havenít landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know itís not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..

Yes it is always hard to gauge the real story but I also find it a little hard to believe that BA is complete shiite now. Im sure they are not what they used to be due to pressures of competing with LCC operators but I would be surprised if people were fleeing in droves. Now if it was Emirates that is a different story...

Does anybody have any credible information on the new pay for SH/LH at BA and when this new contract would likely happen? Easyet is paying more money I believe and from what I have read but to be honest I would not know.

BA and Easy both seem to be doing a lot of hiring which is a good thing so lets hope the money keeps getting better.

DF
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 10:45
  #5187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
Not all rosy in the garden I hear Buter.
SH Capt doing great work for the Training dept? I thought it was a LH TC doing that?
I hear a number of LH TCs are considering resigning from BALPA.
Pay rise for all ?
sudden twang is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 11:19
  #5188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isnít.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other peopleís beds.

Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.

The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.

In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
sudden twang is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 11:33
  #5189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 215
Originally Posted by sudden twang View Post
DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isnít.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other peopleís beds.

Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.

The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.

In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.
ST...A very astute comment. I like the options of world travel and less sectors as well as going home every night and short sectors so as you say one needs to think hard. My concern with SH is can I do it for another 20 to 25 years but as a family man I want to be home.

It also depends on stability, quality of life and of course money. I think both BA and Easy are a safe bet long term with positives and negatives to each company. Its just a case of where would one be happier and which company treats you better?
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 12:26
  #5190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly View Post
Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan....Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.


For starters, you may not be talking about me but seeing as the context of this conversation is a rebuttal of my comments I’ll assume that you are. Where was I complaining about JSS? I actually have a suspicion for some short haulers it’s going to be better as it gets rid of the problem that in Bidline 95% of the lines are a mixture of daytrips and tours which satisfy virtually nobody. But the crux of it is that I wasn’t even allowed to vote on my future be it JSS or Bidline because I hadn’t been in the company long enough! How unjust is that? Yeah you’ve got thirty years left here but you’re not allowed to have a say in how that will go because you’ve only been here a few months.

It’s my conscious decision to have left the Union, which I am entitled to have made as a grown adult. It doesn’t deserve condescending comments like being called “son” or the seemingly resentful accusation of “riding our coattails”. I’m not going to make any further comments as to my perception of those who hide behind anonymity to talk down so severely to someone on an Internet forum, I’ll just leave it there.

Lets see just how successful the pay negotiations are, I’ll be happy to be proved wrong (and it might even sway my decision whether to rejoin or not) but I’m expecting RPI plus a bit, which in context isn’t really that much of a result, some may even say it would be subpar compared to other companies recently.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 12:50
  #5191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
Rex
I can see clearly could be in breach of the trade descriptions act.
Buter is well Buter. He may do us all some good weíll have to wait and see.

DF,
LH is not all bad on family life. The problem is foreseeing what you will want in 20 years time when itís too late to change.
sudden twang is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 15:17
  #5192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by I'm Off! View Post
Sorry, Mr Angry, but absolutely not. How can you do that with regular 8 hour time shifts on the West Coast? Get up at midnight with nothing to do and nowhere to go? Recipe for mental health problems long term. Add to that the fact that staying on UK time does not absolve you of the 5-8 night sleep (UK time) that you miss almost completely every month whilst flying to or from various places, making staying on UK time both pointless and impossible...
Thats it spot on. It is a challenge. I didnít think to reply to Mr Angry, unless youíve tried LH, it is a bit of a mystery.

Similar to you mention, whether you adjust to local or not the elephant in the room isnít the jet lag per say on a 3 day quick fire trips (local light sources, diet, rhythmn of local life) more the rest periods run in multiples of 24 hours. A bit like shift work problems. Means you canít sleep two proper periods in 24 (unless youíre super human). So like you say, no matter what you do, on a 24 hour layover youíre missing a sleep cycle.

Mr Angryís post mentioned striving for recovery on company time. The achievable is quite the opposite. Due to previously mentioned rest periods (24/48) that are antagonistic to the circadian rhythm, far from being able to recover on Co time, your time ďon clockĒ is actively further disrupting your sleep cycle each time you undertake another 24/48 rest. Attempting recovery is forced onto days off. And this is where it can become a somewhat futile pursuit; dual aspects of limited time to achieve this and another shift reversal to adjust for within a small time frame. There is often not enough time to recover the sleep deficit and then re adjust your now night shift cycle back to days. Particularly on 2 days off, and noteably if one has any semblance of local life around him/her that is following U.K. time that may detract from a free ability to sleep when required. And that is even before days off are considered to be free of fatigue issues enough to be downtime in their own right; in essence, to experience required personal time free from work inflictions enough to enjoy all the psychological benefits that bestows. After all, weíre not machines!

This is not a unique BA characteristic, however BA do have an increasingly achievable high personal pilot annual hours work rate for a euro LH airline. Iíve noticed it a lot on my fleet with the work rate at the moment with not common rosters characterised with runs of 2 days off post trip. This increasingly effective ability to utilise its worker units (an open question with a new rostering system) is - despite industrial agreements forged in good faith under a different landscape - amplifying the empirically flawed and questionable ethics of the underpinning regulatory protection system that manages humans working for the flying industry.

I find it insightful to at least know and discuss the mechanics of why fatigue starts really ramping up on LH with a packed roster. Itís for differing reasons than SH.

Interesting, I read a study from the FAA mentioned something like no duty must be planned unless itís conceivable that the Pilot has had a chance to gain 6 hours (or was it 8?) sleep within the preceding 24 hours. I gather this includes the whole duty. So you canít be landing at 0900 unless between 0900 the day before and then, youíd slept fully and not half arsed on a seat for an hour. If that were the case then most 24 hour lay overs would fall foul of that one. Iíll be honest I donít know the FAA FTL regs.








Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 10:50.
Wireless is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 16:02
  #5193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 49
350. + new entrants read next year,700 courses total,50 Commands LGW 320, 80 LHR SH 70 LH
Phantom4 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 19:52
  #5194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 114
Rex, as you chose to use the phrase "BALPA is sh!t scared of the company..." and then went on to spout nonsense on post intended for pilots considering joining the company, you won't find it surprising that I don't consider my comments to you terribly condescending and I certainly don't think you were talked down to "severely."

As for anonymity, I've gone by the name Buter (pronounced BOO-TER, by the way) since I was about 12 years old and my identity is no secret on here (or anywhere else, for that matter).

Twang - It's nowhere near as bad as I imagine you've heard. The training committee is indeed headed up by a LH TC, but there is a SH captain on the committee doing great work, too. As for some trainers threatening to leave, yes, I'm aware of the sentiment, but each member makes his/her own decision wrt resignation from the union. Pay talks have just started within BALPA, so we are just at the beginning of the process, I have no idea what the timeline is and wouldn't comment if I did; something like that would only come out through official comms.

DF - The reasons for my opinion have been discussed widely on this thread already. Pension, FA, Bidline, Pay, high CAP's, interpretation of EASA ftl's, etc.. I can't comment on our SH operation as I can't remember the last time I did a 2 crew sector, let alone a 2 hour sector!

Cheers

Buter
Buter is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 20:32
  #5195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. Itís not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but itís how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they donít have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. Thatís 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. Thatís how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I donít mean letís cut the pay of the guys at the top.

When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS ďjunior shafting systemĒ and ďthatís it I will never work another weekendĒ it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys ďf£#k them, they can do the shit, I have been here longer than them and deserve to chooseĒ chuckles ďI bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they donít get themĒ. Honestly he made my blood boil.
bex88 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 22:15
  #5196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,395
A lot of good points well made, though since Buter (and even I thick old me could work out who he was BTW) is one of the new “intake” to the BACC I’d certainly hope criticism at what and who went before isn’t aimed at him personally....no pressure there on the new guys to deliver...no, none at all.....! !!

Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the shit, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.
That’s certainly very unfortunate but I’ll make the observation that from the lofty heights it has always been kind of hard to understand the enthusiasm some junior colleagues have for JSS... I think if and when JSS gets sorted and once the senior pilots have got their heads around the bidding logic the Junior pilots could quite possibly be shafted vs. how they fared under Bidline...but it certainly isn’t a laughing or chuckling matter... ( and no, I didn’t vote for it).

BTW personally with kids no longer at home like quite a few senior guys I’m quite happy to work weekends ..these days it’s not when I work, it’s where I go.







Last edited by wiggy; 14th Oct 2018 at 22:57.
wiggy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 22:36
  #5197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 10
BA DEP Stage 3

Does anyone have any hints or tips regarding the BA Stage 3 process? Got the email on Friday with the good news. Seems itíll be done in the 767-300 sim.

Cheers!
rossbaku is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 04:29
  #5198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 97
Look on the bright side, at least when you get paid less your BALPA fees are lower
zero/zero is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 06:07
  #5199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. Itís not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but itís how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they donít have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. Thatís 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. Thatís how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I donít mean letís cut the pay of the guys at the top.

Hi Bex,
i don't mean to sound harsh but I canít let that go.
You ask how BA can pay different salaries for the same job. You say shake up, but not to cut the pay of guys at the top.
You infer your union doesnít represent some ( you?) but with impossible requirements like that, is there any wonder?
I donít mean to be disrespectful but this forum is to help those looking for jobs. Your views are heartfelt and honest but need to be taken in context to give balance.
For those who havenít read through all 263 pages here Bex if I remember previous postings correctly joined BA with the bmi takeover so didnít apply to BA but through no fault of his own ended up here. . He is a junior SH capt. Heís made no secret of not being happy in BA. That in itself is good evidence as to whether BA is a good place to be or not. Bex has also made no secret of looking for other jobs but as far as I can n tell heís still with BA. Thatís good evidence too.
The low pay for junior A320 capts is a quirk but we have high pay for senior P2s. BA has historically worked on a longevity pay system. Whatever the pros and cons itís what we have. Changing it will be v complex and will probably blow BA BALPA apart.
I donít see how BA can be expected to ďshake upĒ and level the pay without reducing the higher payscales for both P1 and P2. P1 SH would go senior and P2 LH would go junior. It would only be fair for senior P2s to have a bid for P1 SH but what do they do when all slots are filled? Should more junior P1s be forced into the RHS ? What other option would be fair? Ironically Bex wouldnít see his bumper pay rise, just a type and seat change. BA would expect that to be nil cost so take the conversion course costs out of the pay budget. Oh and hold recruitment we will have so many internal moves and command courses the training system canít cope.
And that hopefully brings it back onto recruitment.
One thing often overlooked is that a PP15 P2 when taking a command becomes a PP15 capt. In many airlines you drop to PP1 capt.



Last edited by sudden twang; 15th Oct 2018 at 06:54.
sudden twang is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2018, 08:02
  #5200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 382
Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but itís really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Donít get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I donít think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFOís on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I donít really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said ďwhat has BA ever done for us?Ē My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂

Last edited by bex88; 15th Oct 2018 at 08:51.
bex88 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.