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Old 15th Oct 2018, 06:07
  #5161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 192
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. Itís not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but itís how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they donít have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. Thatís 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. Thatís how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I donít mean letís cut the pay of the guys at the top.

Hi Bex,
i don't mean to sound harsh but I canít let that go.
You ask how BA can pay different salaries for the same job. You say shake up, but not to cut the pay of guys at the top.
You infer your union doesnít represent some ( you?) but with impossible requirements like that, is there any wonder?
I donít mean to be disrespectful but this forum is to help those looking for jobs. Your views are heartfelt and honest but need to be taken in context to give balance.
For those who havenít read through all 263 pages here Bex if I remember previous postings correctly joined BA with the bmi takeover so didnít apply to BA but through no fault of his own ended up here. . He is a junior SH capt. Heís made no secret of not being happy in BA. That in itself is good evidence as to whether BA is a good place to be or not. Bex has also made no secret of looking for other jobs but as far as I can n tell heís still with BA. Thatís good evidence too.
The low pay for junior A320 capts is a quirk but we have high pay for senior P2s. BA has historically worked on a longevity pay system. Whatever the pros and cons itís what we have. Changing it will be v complex and will probably blow BA BALPA apart.
I donít see how BA can be expected to ďshake upĒ and level the pay without reducing the higher payscales for both P1 and P2. P1 SH would go senior and P2 LH would go junior. It would only be fair for senior P2s to have a bid for P1 SH but what do they do when all slots are filled? Should more junior P1s be forced into the RHS ? What other option would be fair? Ironically Bex wouldnít see his bumper pay rise, just a type and seat change. BA would expect that to be nil cost so take the conversion course costs out of the pay budget. Oh and hold recruitment we will have so many internal moves and command courses the training system canít cope.
And that hopefully brings it back onto recruitment.
One thing often overlooked is that a PP15 P2 when taking a command becomes a PP15 capt. In many airlines you drop to PP1 capt.



Last edited by sudden twang; 15th Oct 2018 at 06:54.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 08:02
  #5162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 473
Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but itís really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Donít get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I donít think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFOís on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I donít really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said ďwhat has BA ever done for us?Ē My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂

Last edited by bex88; 15th Oct 2018 at 08:51.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 09:07
  #5163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 87
Rossbaku. Donít put your mortgage on it being 767.The brief gives pitch/ power settings for 744 RR and GE and if 767 is tech you will be briefed for 744,Good luck.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 09:10
  #5164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 View Post
Itís these last 10 posts or so that put me off joining BA at my age. I have a young family with a wife who works long hours.
I understand aviation is a 24 hour 365 day operation but working every weekend because Iím a junior on the seniority list coupled with a low command pay throws a lot of doubts in to the mix.
I have never been a massive fan of seniority giving people the right to every weekend, Xmas new year etc off. I believe there should be compromises but hey ho I know that goes with joining BA. If I didnít have a young family maybe it wouldnít bother me. Itís why I think if BA are working so hard with fatigue rising why not go somewhere and at least earn some decent money and be able to retire earlier in life.
My airline isnít perfect but at least our rostering agreement guarantees at least 1 weekend off a month.

FWIW Xmas is currently one on a points system so as to ensure a degree of fairness, and TBF some people ( self included actually like some of the Xmas Longhaul trips, so they don't all "go" junior. Weekends however can problematic unless you are very near the top of your list....
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 09:55
  #5165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but itís really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Donít get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I donít think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFOís on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I donít really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said ďwhat has BA ever done for us?Ē My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂

I would absolutely agree with the above, I have been at BA 2.5 years LHR SH and I can honestly say the last 18 months has been the most challenging of my 15 year career. I personally donít dislike BA but my wife sure does! My children are 4 and I never see them, my wife works full time during the week and come the weekend is stuck looking after children on her own. She constantly makes jokes about being a single parent and if this continues there is a very real chance she might be. The seniority system disproportionately protects the pay and lifestyle of those at the top and itís a very difficult pill to swallow but it will never change. As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you donít mind not seeing your family for the first 5 then go for it there honestly is no where else you will achieve this. But if you want command or long term SH then almost anywhere else might be better for you.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 10:15
  #5166 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: South of the North pole
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Phantom4 View Post
Rossbaku. Donít put your mortgage on it being 767.The brief gives pitch/ power settings for 744 RR and GE and if 767 is tech you will be briefed for 744,Good luck.
How tough is the sim check? How long is it normally and what does it involve?
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 11:37
  #5167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
I cannot see there being a great deal of pressure for BA to increase super junior command pay. As far as they are concerned, you join BA as an FO and serve your time as an FO until you gain the seniority for a short haul command perhaps seven or eight years later, by which time your command pay would be more competitive. If a new pilot is lucky enough to join at a time when command seniority is unusually low, they will see it as that new pilot being in the right place at the right time, and so obtaining a super junior command with its associated payrise. There possibly is some pressure to increase junior FO pay, which may then increase the low end command salary as FO pay is currently 75% of command pay across all paypoints.

More likely, if it is ever determined that there is a problem with recruitment numbers or junior pilot retention, then I would predict some kind of bonus payment after x years within the company, rather than a skewing of the salary scale.

This period of super junior short haul commands is almost certainly a blip. We had a recruitment ban for many years, and then suddenly we are in a period of rapid recruitment and postings and promotions movement. As that stabilises, short haul command seniorities will rise again.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 11:52
  #5168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: UK
Age: 29
Posts: 43
Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt?
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?

Also there are pay scales listed on pilotjobsnetwork, but when you upgrade from FO to captain do you start with the Year 1 salary or do you count the FO years too? i.e. If you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
Because from what I understand from the ppjn page the FO salary passes the year 1 captain's salary after around 14 years and the time to command on LH is over 15 years.

From the outside the whole system at BA looks daunting, like you get the short end of the stick for the first 10 years or so and only then does it start to pay off.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 12:06
  #5169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Originally Posted by appleACE View Post
Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt
You can bid LH FO to SH cpt.

Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?
You can bid to go SH cpt to LH capt.

(health warning..that’s how it works under the current agreement)

you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
.
year 14..you “slide across” pay points...

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Old 15th Oct 2018, 12:30
  #5170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 319
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post
As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you don’t mind not seeing your family for the first 5..
I indentify with your post and found it interesting. Just a point I think worth highlighting. I’m junior LH. Just a point of fairness to senior LH in trying to be representative in what I’ve noticed.

For folk looking in from the outside, CAP doesn’t drop as you become more senior. There’s no senior full timers flying 3 short trips a month for example. Chatting to friends outside of it this misconception does seem to exist - “get in a few years and write your own roster” type of gig.

Previously under the old (bidline) system you could bid for lines that had a higher amount of credit efficient trips. These type trips involved more hours over a shorter time frame. But this is in context. You can only work with what’s provided by BA on the dinner plate. Granted, you have more control the more senior you are, and JSS is being watched with interest to see how this is affected once the line system disappears.

The ability to afford part time on PP24 aside, I’ve rarely seen full time senior LHs who are away a huge amount less from home than the juniors. Many still have the trip/2 day off/trip rash somewhere on a leave free line on my fleet. Granted they might fly to less unpopular places and have a couple of weekends off. But only they can answer whether that’s a tradable commodity with how bushed they are overall. That many are going for part time would say otherwise.

Certainly FA and problems with using bank, have caused dismay from everyone. I mentioned in a previous post, and certainly seems to have been highlighted by a couple of retired posters - that when the agreements were forged, the system worked due to the then landscape of the BA operation. BA, naturally doing what businesses do have prodded and poked around, discovering chinks in the armour, elegantly finding work arounds to exploit naively created thin walls and side effects of the system.

A new rostering interface could be (I say could be, I don’t know) well placed to push further against these weak areas of the bidline rules. Just like any business, they will do what money makers will do. I’ve alluded to some of my personal opinions - I think this new efficiency is highlighting fundamental issues in the industry rather than my fixating and targeting my opinions solely at company level.

I think it quite telling that part time is something highly sought, not just in BA. This fact completely disarms a company convincingly asserting aircrew are money driven entities using lifestyle as a bargaining chip. Quite the opposite, it starkly tells a different story. Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.


I always have to remember there’s plenty of folk who’ve never worked outside of BA and until recent years perhaps limited experience of what life is like when you butt up against the unsavoury ramifications of “efficient” FTL construction. At that point do you target your dismay with the local rules or with the regulations that allow these practices? I’d argue for long term protection of aircrew wellbeing you have to tackle both - two pronged. At the local coal face level and also at the wider mother hen level.

Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 13:31.
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 13:42
  #5171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
Fatigue and well being arenít tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection theyíre being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.
I could not agree more!
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 18:48
  #5172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,636
Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
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Old 15th Oct 2018, 20:08
  #5173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 319
Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley View Post
Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO
Thats a fair point and would be wrong if I disagreed.

People are different and of course there are folk perfectly happy on full time with various companies who request part time for other reasons other than to do with health or wellbeing.

I honestly think there’s enough part time requests across the UK airline industry in recent times that are down to the job affecting employees adversely, not just by fatigue, such that it’s more than notable.

I mentioned fatigue but that is far from the only factor. There’s chronic stress and it’s associated symptoms, homelife disruption, health issues due to shift work.


Last edited by Wireless; 15th Oct 2018 at 22:19.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 12:37
  #5174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 7
We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 12:53
  #5175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Do you know many long tours were to be had and were the long tours restricted by any inhibitors?

If there aren’t many and there weren’t subject to an inhibitor then I guess they’ve been corralled by the senior guys....one of the potential pitfalls of JSS “as is”....

(For those not into the language “inhibiters” are restrictions placed into JSS that effect certain trips (e.g. Singapore,) to prevent a handful of senior individuals getting all the plum work..e.g. stop somebody bidding for 3 or 4 Singapore’s in a month. )







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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:02
  #5176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by NoCtot View Post
We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.
Exactly why Iím escaping down to Gatwick, itís a known quantity and have a bolt hole down there I can use for peanuts. The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didnít and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:33
  #5177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


....The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didnít and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.
I donít think Iíd be breaching any rules if I said that according to a source on Yammer it was about 65%, plus or minus not a lot for both seats on the LHR Airbus Fleet.
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:36
  #5178 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer it’s become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!
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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:42
  #5179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer itís become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!
Well Iím sure somebody will be along again the t*** about this again but as I recall it:

1. Those formerly at the top of BA BALPA decided to effectively combine a vote on a rostering system with a vote on an element of our pay.....I have to say that IMHO was not that BACCís finest hour.

2. The membership then voted .....

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Old 16th Oct 2018, 13:54
  #5180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Purely a facetious comment on this occasion Wiggy in the light of previous discussion.
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