BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
I’ll be honest and say I’m struggling with that perception, I think however it has been custom and practise from the company POV for a while to suggest that improvements in one area of T&Cs should be self funded, and as a community we are stuffed if we think that is the way we should proceed.....or do you seriously think the senior should forgo any improvement in T&Cs in order to fund improvements in T&Cs for the junior at a time when the company is making record profits?
As for “robbing Peter to pay Paul, Last time I literally saw that expression used was in a forum debate about the (dire) Maternity provision for female pilots, where one or two of our well meaning but IMHO naive colleagues suggested the community should forgo an element of next years pay rise in order to improve maternity benefits...again this was seriously being suggested at a time when the company is making over a billion in profits......
We need to be pressurising the company into divvying up some reward across the board for everbodies hard work, not arguing that those on Fleet XXX should be subsiding those on Fleet YYY, or those with a seniority number of less than 2000 should be taking a smaller pay increase to top up the payrise of those with a bigger senority number...
and yes...I do agree with what was mentioned earlier, we at BA can be our own worse enemy...and the management know it.
Imagine if BALPA came back from the pay negotiations and gave the following choices, 1) A global 5% increase for 3 years, or 2) Scrap PP34 and everyone gets 2.5% for 3 years how do you recon that vote would go? Think I can guess.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
Enzo, if I was on the 34 point payscale, I would not be pushing for its removal. BA will not reverse that kind of a decision. What I’d be pushing for is a lessening of the gradient, with a rise for pp1 and a reduction for paypoint 34. That would be in BA’s interest for attracting new entrants, and in your interest because none of you are on the top paypoints yet, and you’d get a payrise now when you need it. If you did that, pp24ers could not claim you are robbing from them, and you could still have your across the board corporate rise which is what we will all end up with anyway.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
BA is a broken place. We are divided by LH, SH, PP24, PP34 and so on.
The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on?
until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver.
As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH.
The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on?
until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver.
As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH.
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 419
Likes: 5
From: south coast
BA is a broken place. We are divided by LH, SH, PP24, PP34 and so on.
The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on?
until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver.
As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH.
The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on?
until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver.
As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: Hotel time zone
The flight deck can be the nicest environment in the world, but if you feel trapped in a very unequal and exploitative company structure, I know from experience that it can feel very unpleasant.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 88
From: N/A
What I have found quite eye-opening about working for BA is the amount of pilots we have who don't realise how good they've actually got it, mainly due to only ever working for one airline.
(that applies to our legacy cabin crew too)
(that applies to our legacy cabin crew too)
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
GS Alpha. Of course not. We work completely different jobs with differing market forces, qualifications, responsibility and in different business areas.
Pay rise, pilot A gets 7k. Pilot B gets 14k. How do we justify that one. We have captains doing the same job for nearly half the money of others. The bottom end of the pay scales are disproportionately underpaid and under rewarded.
Where are we? Forgotten on the A320 fleet. Why is it LH guys get bedding and more credit to go to CAI than the airbus guys (and girls)
Student 88: I have worked for 4 different airlines and I can assure you BA has become the worst. It was not always so but the division and changes to SH have caused it to deteriorate beyond recognition.
Pay rise, pilot A gets 7k. Pilot B gets 14k. How do we justify that one. We have captains doing the same job for nearly half the money of others. The bottom end of the pay scales are disproportionately underpaid and under rewarded.
Where are we? Forgotten on the A320 fleet. Why is it LH guys get bedding and more credit to go to CAI than the airbus guys (and girls)
Student 88: I have worked for 4 different airlines and I can assure you BA has become the worst. It was not always so but the division and changes to SH have caused it to deteriorate beyond recognition.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
Of course not. We work completely different jobs with differing market forces, qualifications, responsibility and in different business areas.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
From: up there some where!
BA is like a super tanker, any change will never happen overnight, even though its obvious that change needs to happen.
So many of our T&C's a based on legacy and out of date reasoning that simply do not match the current reality.
For example:
Why is LH pay more that SH, Why do LH get larger potions of food, Why do LH get pre-departure sandwiches when SH crew are the ones running around between aircrafts all day. Why do widebody fleets get duvets on LH flights when the equivalent narrow body LH flights doesn't, why is a 4-5 day trip on SH, flying every day, worth less credit than a LH trip with several days off down route, how come a LCA day trip is worth the same credit as 2 full days at work and 6 sectors, why is it okay for a SH 2 man-crew to fly 4 sectors, on a 11h duty day, which sometimes can be very challenging, if the weather is bad, or even a 2 sector night DME, yet on LH we need 3 crew to do one sector... I could continue. Our T&C's are totally out of date and most definitely favor LH. (Some of the above are obviously trivial, yet the duvets on LH was recently improved, which was proudly announced by the chief pilot... I challenge anybody to highlight an area where SH trumps LH? Apart from ones desire to sleep in your own bed. (This requires you do be very senior though), and perhaps the increased work satisfaction.
It can never be the individual that needs to turn down an opportunity, for things to change. That is simply crazy to suggest. It is BALPA's job to argue that certain parts of the work force has fallen behind the market rate. And yes this may mean that certain groups are rewarded more than others in a pay review, (btw I have no skin in the game, as I have passed the point on the pay scale where it matters) however nobody is stealing from anybody. The reality is that, certain work groups have been hit disproportionately compared to others, for a long period of time. Doesn't this require correction? This combined with NAPS is the reason for SH commands being so junior.
It's madness to have a workplace where employees taking on a large responsibility, i.e the legal responsibility of jet, yet someone on LH can just enjoy the lifestyle on more money, as it financially unattractive to go to SH.
I take my hat of to the junior colleagues who chose to challenge and better themselves careers wise, even though the pay isn't what it should be. Its a great achievement to get a jet command. And had the pay and T&C's been better, well then maybe the opportunity wouldn't be there, but then at least these individuals could have enjoyed some seniority on LH as the naturally progression would have worked like in the old days.
BALPA need to review every work group individually and compare them to the market rate. An RPI+ payrise is relevant across all the fleets, but other T&C's need to reviewed based on individual fleets. Just like maternity pay needs to be reviewed, as its well below what should be expected from a big employer like BA. And yes, that may mean that BA will be unwilling to increase the package for some of our more privileged colleagues, but looking at it from the top of the tree and say I am not giving anything up, even though others are paid too little etc, seems to be detrimental to a unified work force.
As mentioned above. I do not have skin in the game as such, as I have passed the point where it really matters if the deal is improved further down on the list. So the above is really just my observation. It my be naive to suggest that some work groups can be rewarded whilst still maintaining the market rate for others, but that should really be the mission of BALPA. Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...
Anyway, I will get my coat.
So many of our T&C's a based on legacy and out of date reasoning that simply do not match the current reality.
For example:
Why is LH pay more that SH, Why do LH get larger potions of food, Why do LH get pre-departure sandwiches when SH crew are the ones running around between aircrafts all day. Why do widebody fleets get duvets on LH flights when the equivalent narrow body LH flights doesn't, why is a 4-5 day trip on SH, flying every day, worth less credit than a LH trip with several days off down route, how come a LCA day trip is worth the same credit as 2 full days at work and 6 sectors, why is it okay for a SH 2 man-crew to fly 4 sectors, on a 11h duty day, which sometimes can be very challenging, if the weather is bad, or even a 2 sector night DME, yet on LH we need 3 crew to do one sector... I could continue. Our T&C's are totally out of date and most definitely favor LH. (Some of the above are obviously trivial, yet the duvets on LH was recently improved, which was proudly announced by the chief pilot... I challenge anybody to highlight an area where SH trumps LH? Apart from ones desire to sleep in your own bed. (This requires you do be very senior though), and perhaps the increased work satisfaction.
It can never be the individual that needs to turn down an opportunity, for things to change. That is simply crazy to suggest. It is BALPA's job to argue that certain parts of the work force has fallen behind the market rate. And yes this may mean that certain groups are rewarded more than others in a pay review, (btw I have no skin in the game, as I have passed the point on the pay scale where it matters) however nobody is stealing from anybody. The reality is that, certain work groups have been hit disproportionately compared to others, for a long period of time. Doesn't this require correction? This combined with NAPS is the reason for SH commands being so junior.
It's madness to have a workplace where employees taking on a large responsibility, i.e the legal responsibility of jet, yet someone on LH can just enjoy the lifestyle on more money, as it financially unattractive to go to SH.
I take my hat of to the junior colleagues who chose to challenge and better themselves careers wise, even though the pay isn't what it should be. Its a great achievement to get a jet command. And had the pay and T&C's been better, well then maybe the opportunity wouldn't be there, but then at least these individuals could have enjoyed some seniority on LH as the naturally progression would have worked like in the old days.
BALPA need to review every work group individually and compare them to the market rate. An RPI+ payrise is relevant across all the fleets, but other T&C's need to reviewed based on individual fleets. Just like maternity pay needs to be reviewed, as its well below what should be expected from a big employer like BA. And yes, that may mean that BA will be unwilling to increase the package for some of our more privileged colleagues, but looking at it from the top of the tree and say I am not giving anything up, even though others are paid too little etc, seems to be detrimental to a unified work force.
As mentioned above. I do not have skin in the game as such, as I have passed the point where it really matters if the deal is improved further down on the list. So the above is really just my observation. It my be naive to suggest that some work groups can be rewarded whilst still maintaining the market rate for others, but that should really be the mission of BALPA. Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...
Anyway, I will get my coat.
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Timba Hold
As I commented on post earlier about overtime making things overall worse for the community this seems to be another 'issue' I recognise in BA. Ive flown with several SH Airbus captains who comment 'on how good they've got it' but yet are paid less, work more and spend countless more hours sat in uniform in T5 than pretty much all other short haul companies in UK. As Bex refers to fixed rosters and salary at other UK carriers how can we seriously sit and say 'how good we've got it'. Take away the so called 'kudos' for working for a flag carrier and suddenly the contracts for short haul pilots are pretty poor in comparison. If I didn't want to give LH a go I would have already gone back to previous. SH at BA is not a nice place to be.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
Yes actually. We all join BA as flight crew. We all start as FO’s, we all have to pass a command course. We are one department under flight ops. Black and white we move people from A to B.
SH captain, LH captain......completely equal. You can argue it any way you like but the bottom line is SH shift more people more often. LH shift more people in one hit but less often. We need each other.
Most failed conversion in BA.....LH RHS to SH LHS.
I want to see more equality but the evidence points to increasing disparity and unfortunately a “Jack alright attitude” from many.
SH captain, LH captain......completely equal. You can argue it any way you like but the bottom line is SH shift more people more often. LH shift more people in one hit but less often. We need each other.
Most failed conversion in BA.....LH RHS to SH LHS.
I want to see more equality but the evidence points to increasing disparity and unfortunately a “Jack alright attitude” from many.
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: Timba Hold
Having flown with a rep recently he raised a good point. How can we ballot to strike when the mentality is as above? Are LH pilots going to walk out over a ridiculous duty rig on SH and totally un-sustainable rosters? At least JSS might see some of the SH summer horror rosters replicated on LH. Then again- it will be junior pilots flying them. Will the guys/girls higher on the list care if they're getting the first choice trips and the days off they want?
N.B not suggesting LH is easier than SH- but as mentioned in post above a lot more protections and better conditions seem to be found on LH.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: Button Moon
In my very humble opinion the only way forward for long term prosperity is to fight tooth and nail via Balpa to eliminate the things that divide us.
The pay scales would be a logical but ground breaking place to start. Unpopular as this may be, for a number of reasons, I genuinely think it’s high time we scrapped the various pay scales between LH/SH and all sit on one.
Incremental payscale to reward long service, great. But ONE master payscale.
The fact is guys & girls, until we’re more united as a work force the company will run rings around us by poking and widening the cracks between us.
Just my opinion and I realise that it’s unlikely to be a popular one on certain circles. That said, it’s surely undeniable a move in this direction this would send shockwaves through the upper echelons.
Cheers
The pay scales would be a logical but ground breaking place to start. Unpopular as this may be, for a number of reasons, I genuinely think it’s high time we scrapped the various pay scales between LH/SH and all sit on one.
Incremental payscale to reward long service, great. But ONE master payscale.
The fact is guys & girls, until we’re more united as a work force the company will run rings around us by poking and widening the cracks between us.
Just my opinion and I realise that it’s unlikely to be a popular one on certain circles. That said, it’s surely undeniable a move in this direction this would send shockwaves through the upper echelons.
Cheers
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 409
Likes: 3
From: The Home of the Gnomes
Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
These posts make grim reading. It may be worth summarising why BA pilot T&Cs fell so far so quickly (IMHO). It would seem that the previous BACC prioritised keeping all BA pilots on the same seniority list and resisting any plans to set up a low cost BA operation at LHR. They achieved these aims and the rapid growth in BA pilot numbers and commands is the reward. The downsides are numerous as so much was sacrificed along the way; the introduction of a B pay scale, the loss of a final salary pension, SH working to EASA rules and perhaps worse of all, the erosion and eventual loss of BidLine. Numerous other quality of life measures were also given up. A BA manager famously remarked that the "BACC were far more effective at controlling pilot costs than BA management."
Anyone contemplating joining BA should seek as much advice as possible from mates on the inside. In particular anyone aged about 40 or over should seriously think through their likely career path. A first LH command aged 55+ and the consequent severe deterioration in lifestyle may not be a realistic option when the opportunity finally arises.
Anyone living more than about 2 hours journey from LHR should also think carefully. BA are focusing on commuting time for a number of reasons. BA pilot fatigue reports have increased by a factor of 40 since EASA rules were implemented and are likely to rocket far higher if the new JSS rosters are anything like the trial runs. BA will examine whether commuting time was a significant factor in generating fatigue, they would much rather we all lived in Slough or Staines and travelled in by bus (reducing their never ending car park issues).
Sadly it is no longer a "happy" place to work and that is unlikely to change.
Anyone contemplating joining BA should seek as much advice as possible from mates on the inside. In particular anyone aged about 40 or over should seriously think through their likely career path. A first LH command aged 55+ and the consequent severe deterioration in lifestyle may not be a realistic option when the opportunity finally arises.
Anyone living more than about 2 hours journey from LHR should also think carefully. BA are focusing on commuting time for a number of reasons. BA pilot fatigue reports have increased by a factor of 40 since EASA rules were implemented and are likely to rocket far higher if the new JSS rosters are anything like the trial runs. BA will examine whether commuting time was a significant factor in generating fatigue, they would much rather we all lived in Slough or Staines and travelled in by bus (reducing their never ending car park issues).
Sadly it is no longer a "happy" place to work and that is unlikely to change.