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Old 8th Jul 2018, 04:45
  #4861 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
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Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but it’s been found that it’s legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 07:54
  #4862 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but it’s been found that it’s legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.

Yep, I heard ( and I guess you did too) that opinion expressed when "we" brought in EASA FTLs at BA - Given the language used when the company incorporated the rules into the Ops manual (not staying silent on an issue, the use of "should"/"would"/"must") some aspects of the rules have the potential to impinge on leave. I know it suited some in the office (both at BA and at BALPA) to leave it as a grey area because of the implications for the company of being seen to control leave days and the BALPA classic of "don't ask a question if you think you might like the answer...unfortunately for both sides it looks like the audit has shone a light on exactly this issue and some individuals have ended up in the doo daahh...

What do you reckon the solution is? Flying crew (flight and cabin) wanting to use their two weeks leave for a two week holiday simply having to take that time off in Europe/Africa/ the Gulf only...or the company granting extra leave/wrap days for travelling, or the company having a rewrite of the FTLs??

( Edit to add: Anyone wondering what this has to do with DEP recruitment - BA have been quite happy to use the staff travel package, and/or the ability to "commute" by air", as a recruitment carrot....)

Last edited by wiggy; 8th Jul 2018 at 08:16.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 09:01
  #4863 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 741
Just to clarify any confusion that some people may have, it is the fact that BA were interpreting the EASA rules to say you had to be acclimatized to your home base at report for your next duty. If you had been on holiday on the West coast or down in Oz say, you would need potentially 5 nights at base to acclimatize. That would have to come off your holiday time. In addition, due to the vagaries of staff travel, even when confirmed, you couldnít cut it too fine, and would have to allow a day or so leeway. That could mean, a 2 week holiday actually only being 1 week away.
Thankfully, someone in BA saw sense and thereís was a shift in interpretation to you only have to be able to legally operate your next duty after your holiday in a non acclimatized state.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 09:02
  #4864 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
Word on the street (as others have stated before and confirmed by discussion with DFO) is that this is purely about a hardcore minority of long haul commuters positioning themselves overnight then reporting to duty same day as arrival at Heathrow. If that’s true I can’t see much of a problem with the company’s attitude unless it’s the thin end of the wedge and they start coming after everybody else. I can’t see that’s realistic though given that greater than three quarters of BA crew probably commute in some form or another (ie outside the 90 minutes) and that BA’s own 2 hour to the car park call out time on reserve contravenes what it technically means to be rested in OMA.

Last edited by RexBanner; 8th Jul 2018 at 09:43.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 10:54
  #4865 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
Shoot me a link to that if you have it handy, dude.

B
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 15:40
  #4866 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.
Not heard of that one it's also likely that BA crew have more leave than the WTD minimum.
2 things to remember.
BA have to protect the BA brand.
BA have a duty to protect their Staff members.
Its now covered in both Operator and Crew members responsibilities.
The biggest risk for many crew members is not whilst on duty, but the drive home.
Commuting becomes an issue for all commuters when an individual [email protected]@ks it up.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 17:16
  #4867 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
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Originally Posted by GKOC41 View Post
it's also likely that BA crew have more leave than the WTD minimum.
Irrelevant as this impinges on every potential leave block, the legislation does not cease to apply if you have greater than a set amount of leave. Trust me, this came up at easyJet in particular. The legislation exists and, although I post an inordinate amount on PPRuNe, Iím not quite sad enough (yet) to be trawling through relevant EU Directives to post links on PPRuNe in my time off. Itís there though, if you fancy you can do the spade work and have a look.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 19:04
  #4868 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Other airlines have already flagged this issue, Wiggy but itís been found that itís legally unenforceable because it violates the EU working time directive mandating that work must not impact upon your leave.

Just to say that the rumour mill for a long time has had it that almost 50 % of LH's LH crews live in Majorca.....

Same thing here - everyone reckons, and I've no reason to doubt it, that the first few departures out of NCE, MRS and TLN every morning are more than 50% AF staff commuting up to CDG and ORY...

Just saying - because of it suits AF and LH, then It's highly unlikely to legally impact BA crews in the future....
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 23:01
  #4869 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Blimey.....I saw the initial notice about this last week (or was it an email?).....anyway.....all getting a bit heavy this isn't it!

Thanks for the link Wiggy, I've just had a look and found I'm just inside the magic 90 minute net. Do we think this is a case of a few idiots spoiling it for everyone else or is this just BA being heavy handed? Didn't like the tone of what I read from the company at all.

Having commuted by air in a previous airline many moons ago I know how tough it is trying to keep the plates spinning. There were a few back then that took the p*** and in the end it nearly ruined it for the rest of us. Luckily the CC got involved and came up with a sensible solution with the company. Hopefully this will get resolved without public executions on the T5 roundabout!



Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Yep...On another forum some kind individual posted a map showing the 90 minute (driving) isochrone ( no, I hadn't until then either...) centered on LHR....I think that must have come as a shock to more than few..

Link to the charting website here..

https://app.traveltimeplatform.com/#
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 13:22
  #4870 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 741
I think the last execution would be the manager that stirred up this hornets nest. I can imagine many crew following the letter of the EASA regs and OMA and the operation grinding to a halt, especially down route at disturbed rest in hotels.
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 18:30
  #4871 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,246
The EASA FTL issue in relation to leave has been tested with the CAA by another airline where the same question had arisen. The definitions of this in ORO.FTL.105 are quite specific in that you can only move between conditions of acclimatisation and non-acclimatisation via a duty, which is then defined as a task that the crew member performs for the operator. You therefore cannot become non acclimatised as a result of travel around your leave under the EASA FTL scheme and so insisting on the full minimum time at base after leisure travel is not a requirement. Clearly none of this removes the individual crew member's responsibilities (ORO.FTL.115) to be adequately rested before their duty and to plan and use their rest before a duty. However, any operator seeking to impose MTB between a period of leave and your next duty is on a very sticky wicket.

Commuting covers the same, but there can be no question that some current commuting practices of which I think we've probably all seen examples over the years are pretty outrageous. I always used to suggest that if you had to explain your movements over the last 24 hours over the PA to your passengers then if you could do so without all of them wanting to get off your aircraft as a result of what you'd just told them, you were probably on the side of reasonableness. I can't imagine many passengers staying seated to fly with you if you'd just arrived four hours earlier from a commute in from the US. Your colleagues probably wouldn't be too chuffed either. The folk who turned up and demanded first rest in the bunk due to the length of their journey to work were taking the p*** out of their colleagues, I always thought.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 14:54
  #4872 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: santiago
Posts: 40
Hi all!
On july the 3rd I had my assessment day 1 and I passed it.
I received a mail stating that no slots were available for day 2 and that they will be in touch with me soon.
Any idea how long could take that?

Regards

Angelo26
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 16:08
  #4873 (permalink)  
VJW
Sciolist (look it up) of the first order
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 943
Angelo how is it you were waiting for a day 3 simulator assessment December 2016, and now you're being made to start everything again? I thought you passed then and had entered the pool?!
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 20:45
  #4874 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: holland
Age: 42
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by angelo26 View Post
Hi all!
On july the 3rd I had my assessment day 1 and I passed it.
I received a mail stating that no slots were available for day 2 and that they will be in touch with me soon.
Any idea how long could take that?

Regards

Angelo26
I am waiting as well! I passed mine on the 2nd of July!
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 21:06
  #4875 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: santiago
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by VJW View Post
Angelo how is it you were waiting for a day 3 simulator assessment December 2016, and now you're being made to start everything again? I thought you passed then and had entered the pool?!
Hi!
Unfortunately i didn't passed the sim assessment and yes I have to do everything from the beginning.

Regards

Angelo26
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 23:25
  #4876 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Loosdrecht
Posts: 1
Result day 1

Originally Posted by angelo26 View Post
Hi all!
On july the 3rd I had my assessment day 1 and I passed it.
I received a mail stating that no slots were available for day 2 and that they will be in touch with me soon.
Any idea how long could take that?

Regards

Angelo26
Hi gents!

Recently completed my day 1 assessment. Does anyone know when youíll get the result?

Cheers!
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 20:58
  #4877 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rome
Posts: 43
Hi All,

any recommendations on where to stay around lhr b&b, guest houses and so on for the ground school of the training.

cheers
mizar
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 08:52
  #4878 (permalink)  
NLP
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 34
Hi Mizar,

I would reccomend the Premier Inn at terminal 4. It's the most convenient option imo. Get yourself a business account and the standby rate is £51,-. If you're lucky and book early you can get the non-flexible rate for £29,- (that's not via the business website). It's a 20 min walk to the training centre or 5 mins by car/bus. Rooms on 2nd and 3rd floor have fridges and irons.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 16:59
  #4879 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,915
I think Mizar will need his/her BA e-mail account to be up and running before he can get a business account..and Iíd second the advice about checking the general public rates before making a business booking.

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Old 16th Jul 2018, 20:27
  #4880 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Hi,

Does anyone know if on joining BA you are issued a company flight/nav bag?

Cheers
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