PAL Pilot Exodus
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I am terribly dismayed by the recent events that have hit PAL in the last year. Even though I am extremely glad I no longer represent the company, It will always be apart of me and what troubles me is that I will enevitably have to watch on the news a tradgedy that could have fully been prevented.
Do people really need to get hurt or worse... die before PAL changes their ways? The answer is YES. Watch this space!!!! I will see people die in the next few years from a PAL plane due to CRM problems.
You may ask where does CRM start? On the Flight Deck? In the pilots lounge? Your Chief Pilot? AVP Flight Ops? VP Flight OPS? President? CEO? Not so far in the future LT (if he doesn't die first) will address the public because of his planes are crashing. He will blame the PAL management and in turn will blame the pilots.... but the truth is CRM ALWAYS STARTS FROM THE TOP. If there is no interest there.... it will never happen. The only solution is the Filipinos passengers will have to die for the CRM problems at PAL to improve.
You might be shocked to hear that it will get this bad!! Let me ask you..... show me one Second Officer at PAL that has challenged his senior and survived being 'Endorsed'? Show me one FO at PAL that has challenged his Captain? Do you heard about how an FO that saved the Captain from making a bad landing and forced a GA? I know of 2 FOs that didn't force a GA.
Tacloban and last week. 
What are the solutions? This is an open forum.... no endorsing here!!!!
P.S here is one solution...... LEAVE!
for those interested: Lots of Jobs in the middle east and Asia that pay better and don't encourage the BS at PAL.
Do people really need to get hurt or worse... die before PAL changes their ways? The answer is YES. Watch this space!!!! I will see people die in the next few years from a PAL plane due to CRM problems.
You may ask where does CRM start? On the Flight Deck? In the pilots lounge? Your Chief Pilot? AVP Flight Ops? VP Flight OPS? President? CEO? Not so far in the future LT (if he doesn't die first) will address the public because of his planes are crashing. He will blame the PAL management and in turn will blame the pilots.... but the truth is CRM ALWAYS STARTS FROM THE TOP. If there is no interest there.... it will never happen. The only solution is the Filipinos passengers will have to die for the CRM problems at PAL to improve.
You might be shocked to hear that it will get this bad!! Let me ask you..... show me one Second Officer at PAL that has challenged his senior and survived being 'Endorsed'? Show me one FO at PAL that has challenged his Captain? Do you heard about how an FO that saved the Captain from making a bad landing and forced a GA? I know of 2 FOs that didn't force a GA.
Tacloban and last week. What are the solutions? This is an open forum.... no endorsing here!!!!
P.S here is one solution...... LEAVE!
for those interested: Lots of Jobs in the middle east and Asia that pay better and don't encourage the BS at PAL.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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FCOM, SIR, CRM etc
Kurimaw,
Hello to you, obviously you havent gone through formal training yet. Or Maybe you are....who knows. But, to answer your Question.
The FCOM is widely used, meaning almost all the time. It is a reference, where you can always check items like SOPs, Specials, charts, System description etc etc. Pilots are not trained to memories all the stuffs inside this Manuals, but the least One is expected to know where to find important notes.
SIR "Courtesy of Respect?" , As per wikipedia "Title of Respect" or Courtesy title". ni-rumble mo naman.
Lack of CRM doesnt mean na Matigas ang ulo ng Kapitan, or because he thinks he is more experienced, or because he always insist. What they lack is the proper training and understanding of this Subject.
And just to correct you with your Perception that having an ILS CAT2 or 3 approach or GPWS call-outs will save you from this kind of incident. Im telling you right now, You are Wrong.
Read more, and try to understand what you are reading.
Hello to you, obviously you havent gone through formal training yet. Or Maybe you are....who knows. But, to answer your Question.
The FCOM is widely used, meaning almost all the time. It is a reference, where you can always check items like SOPs, Specials, charts, System description etc etc. Pilots are not trained to memories all the stuffs inside this Manuals, but the least One is expected to know where to find important notes.
SIR "Courtesy of Respect?" , As per wikipedia "Title of Respect" or Courtesy title". ni-rumble mo naman.
Lack of CRM doesnt mean na Matigas ang ulo ng Kapitan, or because he thinks he is more experienced, or because he always insist. What they lack is the proper training and understanding of this Subject.
And just to correct you with your Perception that having an ILS CAT2 or 3 approach or GPWS call-outs will save you from this kind of incident. Im telling you right now, You are Wrong.
Read more, and try to understand what you are reading.
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Is PAL really short on pilots ??
I have an application with PAL since Oct 06 and updated my flight times again in March this year.
According to a friend of mine who is a Capt in PAL, I have more than enough to qualify for a direct entry FO position. I have more than 2100 hrs TT ( 1800 multi ) with an ICAO (Australian) CPL/ME/IR and about to take the exam for ATPL.
I recently applied as a multi-engine instructor with Clark Aviation in Pampanga and they were good enough to hire me and give me a hand while waiting for PAL although due to license conversion delay, I have not started instructing yet. But soon.
However, PAL HR thinks I should pay a cash bond or a real estate mortgage as security. I replied to the email asking how much but never got a reply.
I am a Filipino citizen who has decided to come home due to personal reasons and will be staying here for good so I am a bit dismayed by this.
A certain lady in HR doesn't seem to like me much for heaven knows what reason. Three of my friends in PAL ( 2 Capts and 1 F.O ) asked about my application and was lashed out by her. Ang sungit daw !!!
Someone even told me that they have a back log of 1.5 years in hiring. Is this true ? Is HR really that slow ?? If they are then I would understand why I haven't heard from them. But on the otherhand, I thought they needed pilots yesterday.
I know some if not most of you in this thread are ex-PAL and current serving pilots so I would appreciate an honest answer whether to just forget the application and just try for Cebu Pac as I already had some indication from them.
Thanks my friends.
8Ball
According to a friend of mine who is a Capt in PAL, I have more than enough to qualify for a direct entry FO position. I have more than 2100 hrs TT ( 1800 multi ) with an ICAO (Australian) CPL/ME/IR and about to take the exam for ATPL.
I recently applied as a multi-engine instructor with Clark Aviation in Pampanga and they were good enough to hire me and give me a hand while waiting for PAL although due to license conversion delay, I have not started instructing yet. But soon.
However, PAL HR thinks I should pay a cash bond or a real estate mortgage as security. I replied to the email asking how much but never got a reply.
I am a Filipino citizen who has decided to come home due to personal reasons and will be staying here for good so I am a bit dismayed by this.
A certain lady in HR doesn't seem to like me much for heaven knows what reason. Three of my friends in PAL ( 2 Capts and 1 F.O ) asked about my application and was lashed out by her. Ang sungit daw !!!
Someone even told me that they have a back log of 1.5 years in hiring. Is this true ? Is HR really that slow ?? If they are then I would understand why I haven't heard from them. But on the otherhand, I thought they needed pilots yesterday.
I know some if not most of you in this thread are ex-PAL and current serving pilots so I would appreciate an honest answer whether to just forget the application and just try for Cebu Pac as I already had some indication from them.
Thanks my friends.
8Ball
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C R M
All these talks about CRM seem to point all fingers to our comrade pilots in those two (2) PAL incidents/accidents. Nauuna pa tayong humusga sa ating kapwa piloto! Was there already an official finding? Have we really become apathetic to each other? Is this still an after effect of that failed 1998 strike? Wishing the worst to all who didnot strike and when something indeed happen to them! The tragedy is not the event. It is us. That is, if we failed to move on and prove to ourselves that there is life beyond PAL.. beyond a failed strike,,beyond one's ego!
The worst failure is that never attempted!
Role playing is life's essence. The management pilots mentioned in the preceeding threads are playing their role as such. You would too, if you were selected as one. But of course, you will say, you will never accept a position in management.
So what disease plague us? We, as pilot group, is a microcosm of the Filipino race, Divided we stand, divided we fall! We are just lucky that the industry has so much need for us right now that we are getting better terms even without bargaining. What if the situation stabilizes eventually?
We again become easy prey to greedy Labor officials who are easily manipulated by airline owners.
It is because we have given up on that basic instrument of labor protection - UNIONISM. If you think about it, it is constitutional and historical! I always say, we gather strength each time we fall and as mentioned above. THE GREATEST FAILURE IS THE ONE NEVER ATTEMPTED. (unqoute)
The worst failure is that never attempted!
Role playing is life's essence. The management pilots mentioned in the preceeding threads are playing their role as such. You would too, if you were selected as one. But of course, you will say, you will never accept a position in management.
So what disease plague us? We, as pilot group, is a microcosm of the Filipino race, Divided we stand, divided we fall! We are just lucky that the industry has so much need for us right now that we are getting better terms even without bargaining. What if the situation stabilizes eventually?
We again become easy prey to greedy Labor officials who are easily manipulated by airline owners.
It is because we have given up on that basic instrument of labor protection - UNIONISM. If you think about it, it is constitutional and historical! I always say, we gather strength each time we fall and as mentioned above. THE GREATEST FAILURE IS THE ONE NEVER ATTEMPTED. (unqoute)
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the recent discussion here is not a sign of apathy but more of a concern for the present situation.
it isn't right to discuss events here? it affects the lives of pilots in this country. it is not trivial, and does not put our 2 comrade pilots in bad light. it's the aviation culture that is pointed to more in recent posts.
parsifal, what is more trivial is your talk about apathy, disunity, etc., etc. stick to the discussion on culture and crm and will contribute more to safer skies.
it isn't right to discuss events here? it affects the lives of pilots in this country. it is not trivial, and does not put our 2 comrade pilots in bad light. it's the aviation culture that is pointed to more in recent posts.
parsifal, what is more trivial is your talk about apathy, disunity, etc., etc. stick to the discussion on culture and crm and will contribute more to safer skies.
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Nobody pointed finger to anybody
Hello Parsifal,
I said its a pity.
Some said they were saddened because of the incident, though they're no longer with PAL.
Most of us contributed this to failure of CRM, lack of training probably.
At one point, I was also blaiming Training department for not being able to filter this second incident after the first one for the year. And if you are aware about the Tacloban, the pictures are basically the same. The difference is, the A/C in tacloban I believed has been brought back to flying, while this one looks like kaldero in the making.
Nobody pointed fingers to the Pilots(check the post again), but I dont believed Airplanes will just fly throught the end of the runway. I am not saying that they deliverately pushed it in there, but there was an error and a clear threat that they both failed to noticed. If you dont agree on this, what else can I say?
Cheers!
I said its a pity.
Some said they were saddened because of the incident, though they're no longer with PAL.
Most of us contributed this to failure of CRM, lack of training probably.
At one point, I was also blaiming Training department for not being able to filter this second incident after the first one for the year. And if you are aware about the Tacloban, the pictures are basically the same. The difference is, the A/C in tacloban I believed has been brought back to flying, while this one looks like kaldero in the making.
Nobody pointed fingers to the Pilots(check the post again), but I dont believed Airplanes will just fly throught the end of the runway. I am not saying that they deliverately pushed it in there, but there was an error and a clear threat that they both failed to noticed. If you dont agree on this, what else can I say?
Cheers!
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Go Around
As per Philippine ATO sources, on Tacloban incident, Capt took over controls and FO kept silent after that. On Butuan incident, FO overheard twice "Sir, mataas tayo!" (Sir, we are high!) But there was no positive GO AROUND call. They say that the culture in the Phil or Asia in general is for the FO/PNF to move his head towards the CVR mike and addressing it say "GO AROUND, GO AROUND" so as not to offend the Captain but cover his own ass. Unfortunately his ass also goes down with the airplane.
culture and crm indeed
culture and crm indeed
Last edited by ATSU Misc; 5th Nov 2007 at 01:17. Reason: And it doesn't matter if he was a scab or not.
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Culture
What else do we culture?
Plants, Animals, bacterias, Peoples Mentality, Emotions, thinkings, beliefs etc etc.
I think it can be knowledge,technique or direction We impart through teaching, planting, raising or even by forcing.
Somebody brought culture around and people who came to pass this practices learned to accept such, as norms.
Anyone of you saw the Movie "The Village"? Its a very good example of how culture is brought about. They're living at present and modern time, but made their young members to believed that Television doesnt exist, No flying objects such as airplanes and theres a creature that lurks in the forest, And will hunt them anytime they go there.
The people there lived for years, settled and taught their kids how to write and read. Cultivated their own crops and raised their own Animals.
They even celebrated a feast every year, whatever its called I dont recall, but that itself is Culture.
Cheers!
Plants, Animals, bacterias, Peoples Mentality, Emotions, thinkings, beliefs etc etc.
I think it can be knowledge,technique or direction We impart through teaching, planting, raising or even by forcing.
Somebody brought culture around and people who came to pass this practices learned to accept such, as norms.
Anyone of you saw the Movie "The Village"? Its a very good example of how culture is brought about. They're living at present and modern time, but made their young members to believed that Television doesnt exist, No flying objects such as airplanes and theres a creature that lurks in the forest, And will hunt them anytime they go there.
The people there lived for years, settled and taught their kids how to write and read. Cultivated their own crops and raised their own Animals.
They even celebrated a feast every year, whatever its called I dont recall, but that itself is Culture.
Cheers!
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PAL pilots wa-class na talaga?
Referring to the message of Eight Ball:
Wow an HR lady lashing out at pilots for following up on an applicant?
In my time, the HR people were very happy to accomodate any endorsement of PAL employees of any applicant.
The times have indeed changed & the pilots are always branded as the contra-bida in PAL thus the reaction of the HR personnel. (Time to go boys: pilots are respected elsewhere & not treated like this).
PAL asking for cash bond or real estate guarantee? They do not realize that there is a real demand for pilots worldwide!!!
Eight ball I advise you to seek a flying career elsewhere. I'm sure there are tons of opportunities out there boy.
Wow an HR lady lashing out at pilots for following up on an applicant?
In my time, the HR people were very happy to accomodate any endorsement of PAL employees of any applicant.
The times have indeed changed & the pilots are always branded as the contra-bida in PAL thus the reaction of the HR personnel. (Time to go boys: pilots are respected elsewhere & not treated like this).
PAL asking for cash bond or real estate guarantee? They do not realize that there is a real demand for pilots worldwide!!!
Eight ball I advise you to seek a flying career elsewhere. I'm sure there are tons of opportunities out there boy.
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Advice to 8Ball
Have you compared the pilot contracts of PAL and Cebupac? Ask around or try to get a copy and see which one is more acceptable to you. You'll be surprised with the terms.
Have you considered accepting whichever offers a job first? Or is it that important for you to go to PAL? You might get a quicker upgrade in Cebupac and if they accept you earlier then what a bonus.
My hunch is the lady you were talking about is not from HR but the one in SAVP. Watch this face....
Have you considered accepting whichever offers a job first? Or is it that important for you to go to PAL? You might get a quicker upgrade in Cebupac and if they accept you earlier then what a bonus.
My hunch is the lady you were talking about is not from HR but the one in SAVP. Watch this face....
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Everything ok in Bupac?
With due respect to Pack1 & Bupac (i am sure you are proud of your airline if you are still flying there), I've heard some sad stories from ex-Bupac people about your mgt pilot who is an ex-PAL mgt.
This guy was booted out of PAL mgt then became an ALPAP guy.
In Bupac he became in mgt again & started kicking ass similar to Johnny Kalbo's job?! Yumabang na raw nalagay lang sa pwesto.
An oppressed becoming the oppressor? Is everything ok in Bupac at all? Or is it not far from the situation in PAL?
I hope the scenario painted here about Bupac is true about the CRM there better than in PAL (to warrant people to go there) & not part of a propaganda campaign by who else but this ex-PAL mgt/ALPAP/Bupac mgt guy.
This guy was booted out of PAL mgt then became an ALPAP guy.
In Bupac he became in mgt again & started kicking ass similar to Johnny Kalbo's job?! Yumabang na raw nalagay lang sa pwesto.
An oppressed becoming the oppressor? Is everything ok in Bupac at all? Or is it not far from the situation in PAL?
I hope the scenario painted here about Bupac is true about the CRM there better than in PAL (to warrant people to go there) & not part of a propaganda campaign by who else but this ex-PAL mgt/ALPAP/Bupac mgt guy.
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Thanks guys for the honest response. It looks like Bupak will be better choice.
My first choice was PAL but it doesn't need to be now.
The cash bond is because I hold a foreign license although it is about to be converted into an RP CPL. Apparently, they don't trust people like me to stay and honor the contract. Well, they've figured me wrong.
Anyway, I am not even an employee yet and I am already treated this way, I could just imagine what it is to be in the inside. Pressure cooker !!!
The lady in HR is ML. Good luck to her. Look on the bright side, maybe she is doing me a favor by ignoring me. Just being positive....
As of the time of writing this response, I was told by someone from inside that I am in Bupak's list for a Nov interview on the A320.
Thanks everyone
8Ball
My first choice was PAL but it doesn't need to be now.
The cash bond is because I hold a foreign license although it is about to be converted into an RP CPL. Apparently, they don't trust people like me to stay and honor the contract. Well, they've figured me wrong.
Anyway, I am not even an employee yet and I am already treated this way, I could just imagine what it is to be in the inside. Pressure cooker !!!
The lady in HR is ML. Good luck to her. Look on the bright side, maybe she is doing me a favor by ignoring me. Just being positive....
As of the time of writing this response, I was told by someone from inside that I am in Bupak's list for a Nov interview on the A320.
Thanks everyone
8Ball
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Definitely everything going well at Cebu Pac!!
There is no ex-PAL management pilot who is now Cebu Pac management pilot. Your informant is playing you. Check him out. There are definitely no asses being kicked around here at Cebu Pac. That's an insult to us, cebu pac pilots.
Thank you, jet cruiser, for the treatise on culture. I will now try to act cultured.
Thank you, jet cruiser, for the treatise on culture. I will now try to act cultured.
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I think the thread is being hijacked by the cebpac guys 
Kapmuks, I don't know where you got that story of yours but if you're referring to Capt. B, then you only got one side of the story. Most probably from someone who doesn't like him very much even during their PAL days. If he kicked ass, its because thoses asses were meant to be kicked anyway. If you're referring to Capt. L, very much the same thing as stated beforehand. PALs loss is cebpacs gain. These guys have given more than enough to improve the CRM culture in cebpac. But truth to tell, I've never heard of anything like you said from my friends there. Must be Air Phil you are talking about.
Kapmuks, I don't know where you got that story of yours but if you're referring to Capt. B, then you only got one side of the story. Most probably from someone who doesn't like him very much even during their PAL days. If he kicked ass, its because thoses asses were meant to be kicked anyway. If you're referring to Capt. L, very much the same thing as stated beforehand. PALs loss is cebpacs gain. These guys have given more than enough to improve the CRM culture in cebpac. But truth to tell, I've never heard of anything like you said from my friends there. Must be Air Phil you are talking about.
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good to hear
Unruly: I am surely referrring to Cebupac. But your information is good to hear. My fear was that people who were complaining before are doing the same things they complain about. Its good that my fear is not correct. Too much bad news in PAL already enough.
Parsifal: do not be insulted by other people's view as that is not the intention. I hope your other cebupac pilots are not. If you have nothing to hide why get insulted. You begin to sound like my general classmate kidding aside.
Eight Ball: Good luck. Do your best boy.
Parsifal: do not be insulted by other people's view as that is not the intention. I hope your other cebupac pilots are not. If you have nothing to hide why get insulted. You begin to sound like my general classmate kidding aside.
Eight Ball: Good luck. Do your best boy.
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Kapalmuks and parsifal are both correct in the past and present tense respectively. Capt. A fits the profile. Capt. B is a derivative of Capt. A and Capt. L is the real epitome of a "Professional Pilot". All are ex-PALers and product of "old school" culture, but Capt. L who was then the CP of Safety and Compliance in Bupak, liberalized his approach to training and emphasized CRM as a factor of Safety. This concept increases safety awareness by means of synergy. As a result, no major accident/incident after the 5J-387. "PALs' loss is Bupaks' gain" really true.
No Offense!
No Offense!
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Insults
KPMuks, sorry. Didn't mean to be overrighteous.
Anyway, I think there is really some kind of pleasant and professional culture prevailing over at cebupac. I hope it holds.
Anyway, I think there is really some kind of pleasant and professional culture prevailing over at cebupac. I hope it holds.
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Bupac Culture
Please no talk of hijacking! It's a criminal offense, just like bomb threat!
Because of Capts A, B, C...L, sources tell me that First Officers at Bupac have no qualms about commanding Go Around and pushing that thrust lever when the situation warrants. (It has happened, at RPLB and RPVD09)
We can therefore conclude that the "kultura" at Bupac is a tad better than that at Palpac.
Cheers
Because of Capts A, B, C...L, sources tell me that First Officers at Bupac have no qualms about commanding Go Around and pushing that thrust lever when the situation warrants. (It has happened, at RPLB and RPVD09)
We can therefore conclude that the "kultura" at Bupac is a tad better than that at Palpac.
Cheers