BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
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Fred and Cervix,
Thanks for continuing my debate, I was tucked up in bed on my last day off before going back to the grind.
From what I have read, it seems that rather than striking about serious quantifiable issues, the CC have taken the decision to strike mainly on the 'respect' issue. The Managmement have not been very amenable; we'll show them! I work in a non-unionised environment and pretty much all of the things that you are complaining about apply here. Not just to the airline industry but to all large employers. They are impersonal, do not care culturally about their employees and are really only worried about the bottom line. Lack of respect issue from FD to CC is bull****. There are lots of CC that have no respect in the other direction but lets face it most of us get along just fine.
The sickness/air conditioning packs issue is utter hogwash (check out doctors sickness rates). It is a cynical attempt to try and disguise the fact that sickness has been used as a right by CC globally for years. I have sat on crew busses and listened to the girls/guys rebuilding their next month's roster based around their social lives. Not all crew do it, but those that do irreparably damage the image of the entire CC population in the eyes of the management. The reason most FD don't pull a sickie (some do) is that they couldn't bear the thought of screwing a mate. The solution to that problem might be a decent bidding system but even then the 'deadwood' would still take advantage of the situation.
The worry for me is that for the strike to work you have to have public support and stand together. The pay/qualifications issue will be spun, BA will even start comparing Easy/Ryan and BA's conditions.. The other union will still go to work and you will not have a united front even within BASSA. I saw this quote the other day from the BASSA boss:
I have yet to see true poverty amongst the cabin crew, all the ones I have known (and the one that I married) had a nice girl about town lifestyle. If you go to the facts on the sickness issue you will lose and I think the public right now see the TGWU about to sully BA's reputation, not the other way around.
From my angle, there are 2 reasons customer care is going down hill, industry wide. 1. Cost cutting, everyone is trying to stay competitive. 2. Crap in-flight leadership, on one hand we have CSDs that have been doing the job professionally and enthusiastically for years. Sadly we also have CSDs that as soon as they get promoted spend the next 20 years asleep on the jumpseat.
As to expressing your opinion; remember the old saying "opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink!" Cervix, I wish you well but I don't think you will win. Unless you can win the factual arguments in the weeks to come and gain public sympathy, you are toast.
Ghost
Thanks for continuing my debate, I was tucked up in bed on my last day off before going back to the grind.
From what I have read, it seems that rather than striking about serious quantifiable issues, the CC have taken the decision to strike mainly on the 'respect' issue. The Managmement have not been very amenable; we'll show them! I work in a non-unionised environment and pretty much all of the things that you are complaining about apply here. Not just to the airline industry but to all large employers. They are impersonal, do not care culturally about their employees and are really only worried about the bottom line. Lack of respect issue from FD to CC is bull****. There are lots of CC that have no respect in the other direction but lets face it most of us get along just fine.
The sickness/air conditioning packs issue is utter hogwash (check out doctors sickness rates). It is a cynical attempt to try and disguise the fact that sickness has been used as a right by CC globally for years. I have sat on crew busses and listened to the girls/guys rebuilding their next month's roster based around their social lives. Not all crew do it, but those that do irreparably damage the image of the entire CC population in the eyes of the management. The reason most FD don't pull a sickie (some do) is that they couldn't bear the thought of screwing a mate. The solution to that problem might be a decent bidding system but even then the 'deadwood' would still take advantage of the situation.
The worry for me is that for the strike to work you have to have public support and stand together. The pay/qualifications issue will be spun, BA will even start comparing Easy/Ryan and BA's conditions.. The other union will still go to work and you will not have a united front even within BASSA. I saw this quote the other day from the BASSA boss:
Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general-secretary, said: "Our members are fed up with being bullied into coming into work when sick and with the divisions caused by poverty-level new entrant pay scales. "They see customer care being cut and the airline's reputation being damaged by bungling management."
From my angle, there are 2 reasons customer care is going down hill, industry wide. 1. Cost cutting, everyone is trying to stay competitive. 2. Crap in-flight leadership, on one hand we have CSDs that have been doing the job professionally and enthusiastically for years. Sadly we also have CSDs that as soon as they get promoted spend the next 20 years asleep on the jumpseat.
As to expressing your opinion; remember the old saying "opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink!" Cervix, I wish you well but I don't think you will win. Unless you can win the factual arguments in the weeks to come and gain public sympathy, you are toast.
Ghost
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I, like a lot of my friends, would stand up for BA and promote them always. Now, most of us either couldn't give a shi*te or are down right hostile.
BA has no customer service left except on board. If there is bad weather, a strike, a terrorist alert, all the BA staff (bar a few loyal folks) run for the doors. No one answers the phone, if your bags are lost, so what.
All BA want to do is take your money, and if it all works then great and if it doesn't then tough. I am not suprised the CC have had enough.
As an aside, have you seen the nice terms that BA are offering if you happen to be a poor PAX during the strike. You can change your ticket for another BA flight (should they be running), or go to a different departure point (at your own expense!!!). What a joke, BA must think we all have weeks to spare to swan around just waiting for when a BA flight may run again.
So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees in such a way that they realise that they are running a business to serve customers and by doing that well everyone will benefit, including the mgt, shareholders etc etc
BA has no customer service left except on board. If there is bad weather, a strike, a terrorist alert, all the BA staff (bar a few loyal folks) run for the doors. No one answers the phone, if your bags are lost, so what.
All BA want to do is take your money, and if it all works then great and if it doesn't then tough. I am not suprised the CC have had enough.
As an aside, have you seen the nice terms that BA are offering if you happen to be a poor PAX during the strike. You can change your ticket for another BA flight (should they be running), or go to a different departure point (at your own expense!!!). What a joke, BA must think we all have weeks to spare to swan around just waiting for when a BA flight may run again.
So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees in such a way that they realise that they are running a business to serve customers and by doing that well everyone will benefit, including the mgt, shareholders etc etc
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Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general-secretary, said: "Our members are fed up with being bullied into coming into work when sick and with the divisions caused by poverty-level new entrant pay scales.
As you should know by now, I like to deal in FACTS, not opinion based on rhetoric or hearsay. According to the latest available data from the CAA (2005) who should be independant, personnel costs for pilots withing BA are 23% higher than the next highest UK operator (First Choice). With cabin crew, the figure is 60% higher than the next highest (Easyjet). Now before everybody shoots from the hip, these figures include all personnel costs (particularly pensions which in BA are particularly high because of the deficit) but as you can see the cabin crew are still the best paid in the UK by a large margin. I have no problem with them protecting what they have got but BASSAs 12 items will add £37m per year (BA's figures I know, so large pinch of salt) to the IFS budget and into the pockets of CC. The rest of BA is reducing budgets, not increasing them which is why BA is digging in so firmly.
Go back and have a look at BASSA's latest newsletter (post 515) and my attempt to de-spin it on post 529.
Finally I am now off on a long trip with limited internet opportunities so no more posts. I hope this madness is sorted out by my return, although I doubt it.
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Deltahero
It is about maximising profit to the sareholders
Isn't that what's he's paid to do as head of an international business. Disagree with screwing the staff to achieve it though.
Deltahero
It is about maximising profit to the sareholders
Isn't that what's he's paid to do as head of an international business. Disagree with screwing the staff to achieve it though.
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It was your choice to do a job for which the eligibility is 2 GCSEs.
I'd have thought someone who describes himself/herself as a "Business Consultant" might first carefully consider the issues in dispute and competing arguments so as to be able to make an informed contribution.
Perhaps not?
I say there boy
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So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees in such a way that they realise that they are running a business to serve customers and by doing that well everyone will benefit, including the mgt, shareholders etc etc
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F3G
I meant relevant to salary.
BA's requirement to be CC is 2 GCSEs in Maths and English. (No minimum grade specified)
If the pay varied depending upon the number of languages spoken, then it would be relevant to salary.
FL
I meant relevant to salary.
BA's requirement to be CC is 2 GCSEs in Maths and English. (No minimum grade specified)
If the pay varied depending upon the number of languages spoken, then it would be relevant to salary.
FL
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When there is a cancer you can let it grow and it will kill you or you can cut it out and hopefully recover. Flying Lawyer misses the point, as most lawyers would, that we all want BA to suceed but since they have lost sight of the goal the war cannot be won.
Ps.
I hear Branson is looking for 4 Jumbo's with crew to cover some of the disaffected BA customers.
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I think most people would agree that it is difficult to live on that sort of salary in the South East but don't forget that salary, and in particular junior salaries are not one of the issues over which the strike is being held, and win or lose then they will still be on £14k.
When going into a dispute you have to have a very clear focus of what the issues are, what you would like to achieve, and what you think you will realistically settle for.
I get the impression that this dispute is an expression of pent-up resentment over various issues, but I cannot see how the strike will resolve them, and I fear that by having a totally unrealistic shopping list, then the gulf will be too wide to even reach a compromise.
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That is, of course, possible, although I don't think I have.
But what I certainly haven't missed is your comment when GMB employees at BA threatened to strike:
A rather different approach from your 'Come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have brought the company to its knees' approach in this thread.
As a "Business Consultant", which approach would you advise WW to adopt in responding to Bassa's demands and those members who support the call to strike?
(Edit)
Would I be correct in assuming that your expertise lies in the engineering/technical aspects of a business?
But what I certainly haven't missed is your comment when GMB employees at BA threatened to strike:
Yet another short sighted decision from those at the union seeking their 15 minutes of fame.
Most of us humans are lucky enough to have 2 feet. If the job is so crap, and the pay so awful, why not go somewhere else.
The world is full of in-equality, just because the boss gets paid a bit more is no reason to expect you will too, despite the fact that you may deserve it.
The law of supply and demand dictates who gets what. If BA's ticket prices rise above a competetive level then we won't need the checkin staff anyway, and hey presto they will be out of a job.
Most of us humans are lucky enough to have 2 feet. If the job is so crap, and the pay so awful, why not go somewhere else.
The world is full of in-equality, just because the boss gets paid a bit more is no reason to expect you will too, despite the fact that you may deserve it.
The law of supply and demand dictates who gets what. If BA's ticket prices rise above a competetive level then we won't need the checkin staff anyway, and hey presto they will be out of a job.
As a "Business Consultant", which approach would you advise WW to adopt in responding to Bassa's demands and those members who support the call to strike?
(Edit)
Would I be correct in assuming that your expertise lies in the engineering/technical aspects of a business?
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 24th Jan 2007 at 10:02.
As I said many posts ago.....BA staff must enter the real world or suffer the consequences.
First, most realists have known for donkey's years that BA staff had a pretty good deal, certainly in comparison with most other UK Operators. Now they are largely taking the p...!
Second, with the exception of a fortunate few, most people in this industry have taken a fairly severe hit in recent years....not just pay and conditions but their jobs! Low cost for passengers means low income for the rest of us.....airports, handling agents, caterers, individuals etc almost ad infinitum.
Third, passengers have a choice....they will not tollerate the uncertainty of strike affected operators and services. They have commitments, deadlines, recreational arrangements which they wish to keep.....they will, indeed are using alternative carriers. If they find that such carriers meet their needs they will stick with them. Why risk the regular uncertainty and carelessness of BA?
Fourth, do you remember British Leyland, the National Coal Board, the British Shipbuilding Industry, the Steel Industry and lots of other household names either long gone or seriously diminished because they kept holding people to ransom?
Although there will inevitably be some justified complaints amongst the BA CC, (as there are in all industries and jobs), strikes invariably do more harm than good...........as Winston Churchill said, 'Jaw Jaw is better than War War!'.
H49
First, most realists have known for donkey's years that BA staff had a pretty good deal, certainly in comparison with most other UK Operators. Now they are largely taking the p...!
Second, with the exception of a fortunate few, most people in this industry have taken a fairly severe hit in recent years....not just pay and conditions but their jobs! Low cost for passengers means low income for the rest of us.....airports, handling agents, caterers, individuals etc almost ad infinitum.
Third, passengers have a choice....they will not tollerate the uncertainty of strike affected operators and services. They have commitments, deadlines, recreational arrangements which they wish to keep.....they will, indeed are using alternative carriers. If they find that such carriers meet their needs they will stick with them. Why risk the regular uncertainty and carelessness of BA?
Fourth, do you remember British Leyland, the National Coal Board, the British Shipbuilding Industry, the Steel Industry and lots of other household names either long gone or seriously diminished because they kept holding people to ransom?
Although there will inevitably be some justified complaints amongst the BA CC, (as there are in all industries and jobs), strikes invariably do more harm than good...........as Winston Churchill said, 'Jaw Jaw is better than War War!'.
H49
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Problem as i see it is that BA have made attempts to curb the perceived sickness culture that happens at BA and has gone so far that it's affected the majority of decent hard working crew members who are now scared to go to work with a head cold or blocked ears etc. True, a lot of CC threw sickies to go out, avoid poor money trips, but in that respect also they lost their complete roster so it was a good reason not to "throw one".
I personally don't think that sickness rules and a debate on who works where on the aircraft is enough of a mandate to call a strike. Problem is that BA crew still don't know how lucky they are compared to other airlines. Wife worked for BA and was on a Part Time contract, and earned more then than now on a full time contract!
I personally don't think that sickness rules and a debate on who works where on the aircraft is enough of a mandate to call a strike. Problem is that BA crew still don't know how lucky they are compared to other airlines. Wife worked for BA and was on a Part Time contract, and earned more then than now on a full time contract!
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Why is there persisitently on this thread the need to knock BA CC and their present T & C's. The crew are only trying to hang on to what they have already got in the whole.
Its a British thing...to knock those at the top and bring them down to the lowest level.
All other UK CC should be trying to attain some of the T & C's that BA CC have.
Understand that the worlds most profitable airline is continually trying to screw its frontline (and most important) workforce and this strike is a reaction to this.
Also be aware the 20 million BA shares (value approx £75M) that has been put aside to pay the transient bosses huge bonuses does not go down very well with many of the workforce.....
Its a British thing...to knock those at the top and bring them down to the lowest level.
All other UK CC should be trying to attain some of the T & C's that BA CC have.
Understand that the worlds most profitable airline is continually trying to screw its frontline (and most important) workforce and this strike is a reaction to this.
Also be aware the 20 million BA shares (value approx £75M) that has been put aside to pay the transient bosses huge bonuses does not go down very well with many of the workforce.....
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Watch out for WW
It is well known that WW is happy to simply slash jobs. If the strikes go ahead he could simply reduce the fleet by about 10 aeroplanes making a load of people redundant. BASSA whats your next move? I'm sure the CC will become dissheartened by being demoted and watching their mates get made redundant. Downsizing could be an option for BA!
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Get real!
have fallen into a trap here. WW's been waiting for just this opportunity and he's prepared. I just want crew - some of who, let's agree are not upto scratch and certainly not team players with their Ground colleagues - to come to their senses and use more subtle means to achieve their aims without ruining all our lives.
Crew have the undivided attention of senior players, city moguls, major shareholders, senior BA staff, government officials etc. for hours on end up there and can spend time chatting to them ( they're at least good at that ) instead of sleeping. It's worth the loss of one kip to make your subtle and friendly point to someone who can make a difference!
My other half has decided to do just this ( she's CC89 ) in support of her BASSA colleagues but is frustrated at their intransigence.
I can't believe the people who urge Crew to fight 'til the bitter end - they have to be Virgin/Bmi shareholders.
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Having spent 6 years working both LHR/LGW WW and EF at BA, I read this all with great interest. There are certainly a lot of armchair critics here, have neither the inside knowledge nor understanding of the reality of the internal politics and workings of Cabin Services and their associated "managerial" styles...
What really does irk me though is this persistent comparison to "BA crew have never had it so good, they have t&c's and pay that is echelons above the rest of the (low cost) industry etc etc" (Obviously all these posters are/were crew?!) Well, in some instances I would thoroughly agree that BA crew do get well rewarded for what they do, with some of the best benefits in the industry. But BA is not a "low cost carrier" and is not pitching at that market, so why apply low cost market principles to them? What do you propose BA do? Make their crew more "low cost market (!) competitive" ?
Suddenly your greatest resource to retain business and strengthen your brand are sounding like a commodity.
Now imagine if your advocated strategy was applied to you - be you a pilot, manager on the ground, bus/tube driver (god forbid!) etc etc. How would you feel about being made more "low cost market competitive"??? (sub inflationary increases in salary over the last ten years, dilution of t&c's, sudden loss of promotion opportunity with more 24hr avail) Would you feel de-valued in the eyes of your employer? Would you feel de-moralised? The answer is obvious to me (bring on the transparent moral high ground responses!)
I do not agree 100% with the BASSA list of proposals, and I think a strike should be the very last resort. I also don't totally blame the company, and think BASSA and BA can be as bad as each other, with the BASSA media machine also playing a role in getting crew worked up into a frenzy. They have a very valid point on EG300 though, and the new entrant salaries need to be looked at (reference sub inflationary pay rises)
What really does irk me though is this persistent comparison to "BA crew have never had it so good, they have t&c's and pay that is echelons above the rest of the (low cost) industry etc etc" (Obviously all these posters are/were crew?!) Well, in some instances I would thoroughly agree that BA crew do get well rewarded for what they do, with some of the best benefits in the industry. But BA is not a "low cost carrier" and is not pitching at that market, so why apply low cost market principles to them? What do you propose BA do? Make their crew more "low cost market (!) competitive" ?
Suddenly your greatest resource to retain business and strengthen your brand are sounding like a commodity.
Now imagine if your advocated strategy was applied to you - be you a pilot, manager on the ground, bus/tube driver (god forbid!) etc etc. How would you feel about being made more "low cost market competitive"??? (sub inflationary increases in salary over the last ten years, dilution of t&c's, sudden loss of promotion opportunity with more 24hr avail) Would you feel de-valued in the eyes of your employer? Would you feel de-moralised? The answer is obvious to me (bring on the transparent moral high ground responses!)
I do not agree 100% with the BASSA list of proposals, and I think a strike should be the very last resort. I also don't totally blame the company, and think BASSA and BA can be as bad as each other, with the BASSA media machine also playing a role in getting crew worked up into a frenzy. They have a very valid point on EG300 though, and the new entrant salaries need to be looked at (reference sub inflationary pay rises)
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FL
What I meant, but on reflection did not say, is that the poster justified his/her salary by quoting qualifications and I could make a connection to the languages, but not the degree.
Whilst BA may set entry criteria of 2 GCSE equivalents, I imagine (certiris paribus) that someone fluent in languages would be more attractive to hire than someone who is not.
Ergo he/she ended up in a global full service carrier, rather than a loco or a charter operation, with a better salary as a result.
Bit "around the houses", so apologies for not making it clearer.
What I meant, but on reflection did not say, is that the poster justified his/her salary by quoting qualifications and I could make a connection to the languages, but not the degree.
Whilst BA may set entry criteria of 2 GCSE equivalents, I imagine (certiris paribus) that someone fluent in languages would be more attractive to hire than someone who is not.
Ergo he/she ended up in a global full service carrier, rather than a loco or a charter operation, with a better salary as a result.
Bit "around the houses", so apologies for not making it clearer.