BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aycervix
I find the vast majority of my colleagues, in either seat, to be particularly intelligent, generous and open people!
Nevertheless, after 18 years of flying with BA I can only say that whilst almost all cc are really nice and good company , the attitudes and demands from BASSA not only damage the well-being of their own members but are a major handicap to the rest of the airline and our pax.
The lies they have told in the past , and the lies they continue to tell, are terribly divisive. They are the main reason there is often bad feeling between the cc and pilots; and animosity and mistrust towards the management.
Unfortunately most crew will not even read anything published by BA yet - bizarrely - believe everything BASSA write.
Personally I have flown with several new guys recently and am instinctively more cautious both personally and operationally. Is there a particular reason that you clash often? If you are really finding frequent difficulties with Capts then perhaps you should question your approach as I have not encountered a bad atmosphere for years!!
Will our cc really strike for these issues; will they compromise?
How far will ww go? If they push him too far surely he will have no choice but to fight them all the way; which would be crazy for BA crew because they are well paid - especially the pre 97 crew - and actually have great conditions compared to other uk airlines
I find the vast majority of my colleagues, in either seat, to be particularly intelligent, generous and open people!
Nevertheless, after 18 years of flying with BA I can only say that whilst almost all cc are really nice and good company , the attitudes and demands from BASSA not only damage the well-being of their own members but are a major handicap to the rest of the airline and our pax.
The lies they have told in the past , and the lies they continue to tell, are terribly divisive. They are the main reason there is often bad feeling between the cc and pilots; and animosity and mistrust towards the management.
Unfortunately most crew will not even read anything published by BA yet - bizarrely - believe everything BASSA write.
Personally I have flown with several new guys recently and am instinctively more cautious both personally and operationally. Is there a particular reason that you clash often? If you are really finding frequent difficulties with Capts then perhaps you should question your approach as I have not encountered a bad atmosphere for years!!
Will our cc really strike for these issues; will they compromise?
How far will ww go? If they push him too far surely he will have no choice but to fight them all the way; which would be crazy for BA crew because they are well paid - especially the pre 97 crew - and actually have great conditions compared to other uk airlines
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester UK
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been watching this post with interest for the last few days / weeks. As a Professional Buyer whose responsibility includes employee travel. I feel compelled to put forward my feelings.
The main objective of my responsiblities is to guarantee security of supply to our production facilities around the globe, be this boxes, stainless steel or services such as travel for employees. At the moment, in order to gaurantee the my companies employees are in the right place at the right time, I am having to avoid BA as one of our carriers of choice. Explaining to my Purchasing Director that again travel plans are having to be rearranged to accommodate the foolish actions of BA staff is getting to be a bit tedious. It seems to be a recurring and repetitive issue which gives me, my employer and possibly the general travelling puplic as a whole, the impression that BA is staffed by petulent school children.
As has already been pointed out negotiations are give and take, and from my point of view it seems just take, take, take. Blaming WW for everything seems pretty arrogant to me. "Takes two to tango" as they say.
However, on a more positive note, thanks to this industrial action, my profile has been greatly improved with my colleages! You see, having to tell an employee that he is no longer travelling with BA but will now be aboard an Emirates flight brings a smile to their faces!! Most of my colleages regard BA and it's CC with the contempt it deserves. It's no longer a "Premium Quality Airline" with "High Quality Service". I won't post some of our engineers harsh comments about the standard (looks) of the CC themselves as this post is about BA and not people in particular. As far as I can see WW has a long way to go and good luck to him trying to change a tired old dog (airline, not Trolley Dolly) into what it once was.
"Worlds Favourite Airline", my a**e.
Regards
The main objective of my responsiblities is to guarantee security of supply to our production facilities around the globe, be this boxes, stainless steel or services such as travel for employees. At the moment, in order to gaurantee the my companies employees are in the right place at the right time, I am having to avoid BA as one of our carriers of choice. Explaining to my Purchasing Director that again travel plans are having to be rearranged to accommodate the foolish actions of BA staff is getting to be a bit tedious. It seems to be a recurring and repetitive issue which gives me, my employer and possibly the general travelling puplic as a whole, the impression that BA is staffed by petulent school children.
As has already been pointed out negotiations are give and take, and from my point of view it seems just take, take, take. Blaming WW for everything seems pretty arrogant to me. "Takes two to tango" as they say.
However, on a more positive note, thanks to this industrial action, my profile has been greatly improved with my colleages! You see, having to tell an employee that he is no longer travelling with BA but will now be aboard an Emirates flight brings a smile to their faces!! Most of my colleages regard BA and it's CC with the contempt it deserves. It's no longer a "Premium Quality Airline" with "High Quality Service". I won't post some of our engineers harsh comments about the standard (looks) of the CC themselves as this post is about BA and not people in particular. As far as I can see WW has a long way to go and good luck to him trying to change a tired old dog (airline, not Trolley Dolly) into what it once was.
"Worlds Favourite Airline", my a**e.
Regards
Way back I also posted from a Customer perspective, re. a forthcoming trip and how the planned strikes were likely to disrupt our half-term travel plans.
Well, they have, as the 14th (our original return day) is now a potential strike day.
Having spent some time talking to BA Reservations yesterday (and hanging on the line, but I'm not going to moan about that as they must be very busy
) I can only say that I was dealt with very efficiently and our return flights have been changed to the following day free of charge (although of course you've cost me an extra nights hotac) - I took the precaution of requesting the second flight back, in case the night-stopper doesn't operate out on the 14th 
Those of you about to take the action should be very grateful to your colleagues in Customer Services for the good job they are doing (at least based on my experience) to sort out the mess you've created.
I expect they earn a lot less than a lot of you aswell
Well, they have, as the 14th (our original return day) is now a potential strike day.
Having spent some time talking to BA Reservations yesterday (and hanging on the line, but I'm not going to moan about that as they must be very busy
) I can only say that I was dealt with very efficiently and our return flights have been changed to the following day free of charge (although of course you've cost me an extra nights hotac) - I took the precaution of requesting the second flight back, in case the night-stopper doesn't operate out on the 14th Those of you about to take the action should be very grateful to your colleagues in Customer Services for the good job they are doing (at least based on my experience) to sort out the mess you've created.
I expect they earn a lot less than a lot of you aswell
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: on the edge
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh how sad you are DarkStar.
What do you intend to achieve by your pathetic comments?
Assuming your are Flt Crew, this makes it very obvious to all readers just what CC have to put up with from some of our colleagues. Pls refer to earlier posts on this thread in which some Flt Crew just cannot understand how the bitterness exists between some CC and FC.
What do you intend to achieve by your pathetic comments?
Assuming your are Flt Crew, this makes it very obvious to all readers just what CC have to put up with from some of our colleagues. Pls refer to earlier posts on this thread in which some Flt Crew just cannot understand how the bitterness exists between some CC and FC.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I have flown with several new guys recently and am instinctively more cautious both personally and operationally. Is there a particular reason that you clash often? If you are really finding frequent difficulties with Capts then perhaps you should question your approach as I have not encountered a bad atmosphere for years!!
My point however is that a significant minority express these attitudes behind the closed door, they also happen to be the same significant minority who howl the loudest when an operational issue effects them negatively, or indeed when they can't find a space at compass on a weekend
Unfortunately, it seems that there exists a similar mindset amongst certain posters on here, which is why I am particularly vociferous in offering a counter view.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASSA's latest refutal in detail of BA's position ......
IMPORTANT UPDATE 23rd January 2007
BASSA’s proposals for resolution of current industrial dispute.
We will always try to negotiate, right up to the 11th hour 59th minute. We will not give up trying but neither will we give up what we know to be right.
It is extremely unlikely now that we will be able to reach agreement on these issues. The progress made is simply nowhere near enough.
Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside in a responsible attempt to see if there was any possibility of resolving these issues through negotiation, even up to late last night.
For those of you who have never witnessed a major industrial negotiation, we felt you may be interested - and also it’s important to point out - that these are almost always done by a series of verbal exchanges across the table. Documents are never produced until the final stages and not until there is common ground between the two sides as the talks progress. Several drafts (there can number up to 50 versions) continue to be negotiated and then - and only then - if achieved, a final agreement document is produced.
Negotiation is never carried out by letter.
These talks produced a major change to this way of business and we allude to it in our latest update flyer. Despite there being NO common ground between us, British Airways management surprisingly arrived to the talks on Friday19th January with an extremely detailed and wordy letter. This contained what they believed to be not only their position but also more importantly, an extremely and deliberately distorted version of the position of BASSA.
More Dirty tricks?
Immediately we knew that this was the end of negotiation. They were not taking any of the issues seriously. This letter was not intended for us, it was to be leaked to the waiting media and the BA press office. It was an attempt to undermine the morale of crew in taking industrial action and in a cynical attempt to turn public mood against us, as crew, by trivialising our legitimate concerns. HOW ACCURATE OUR ASSUMPTION PROVED TO BE.
The most obvious example of this being the front page of yesterday’s - Toenail strike -Evening Standard. This was fed to them directly by the BA press office - we have the proof.
The irony should not be lost that in their letter they claim to “highly value” cabin crew. They then cynically mislead the press to cause public ridicule of these same “highly valued’ crew.
THESE ARE THE TACTICS OF A MANAGEMENT THAT PLACES LITTLE VALUE ON THE LOYALTY OF A DEDICATED AND HARDWORKING WORKFORCE. EXPECT MORE BAD PRESS…YOU WILL NOT NEED TO GUESS WHERE IT IS COMING FROM… WATERSIDE.
So, let us clarify the issues so you are in possession of the full facts as to why we are taking industrial action and to explain the issues we are fighting for on your behalf:
EG 300
This centres on the recognition that there are numerous conditions that could prevent you from flying when a ground-based person could easily continue to work. We demand recognition that flying is a unique environment with a unique impact upon health.
BA saves money by reducing the amount of fresh air circulated through the aircraft cabin. Humidifiers are also often deactivated for both passengers and cabin crew. This increases the risk of infection. They then punish crew for having higher sickness than an office clerk. The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level.
We are food handlers and safety professionals; the law places higher restrictions upon us.
BASSA’s position
We need a clear and defined list of recognised conditions that you cannot fly with that must be discounted from EG300.
Colds and flu with blocked ears - our eardrums can easily burst and our career ended.
Diarrhoea and vomiting - we are food handlers and cannot work by law.
Visible injury - we can’t work with plaster casts, slings, leg braces, disfigurement etc.
When BAHS has advised crew not to fly.
Broken limbs and one-off injuries.
Operations.
Cancer.
Severe emotional trauma through a life event - the death of a love one, victim of a violent crime etc.
Down route sickness.
Good sickness records should also be taken into account. We all get sick sometimes, that needs to be recognised and people helped not punished.
Flying Crew Orders must be amended to reflect this.
ARI’s need to be reduced. The right to representation acknowledged and when and where they occur agreed upon.
The process for “discounted sickness” to be made immediate and easier for crew through improved guidelines.
An appeals process for crew in the event of unfair treatment and/or decisions.
PURSER UPPER DECK 747
Simon Talling-Smith said that he isn’t going to impose this and yet we are still being told that they are going to do it at the first available opportunity.
BASSA’s position;
We can’t accept the removal of promotion opportunity coupled with the continuance of a discriminatory pay scale for post 1997 crew. It’s simply wrong.
DOWN ROUTE REPORT TIME
Management researched and acknowledged the legitimacy of our claim and said that to take into account the additional duty time to accommodate post September 11th security checks would cost an extra £6.2 million.
As a gesture of conciliation, BASSA agreed to give up our claim on this issue and use this cost instead towards improving the new entrant pay scales.
PENSIONS
Cabin Crew must have an option to buy back to their current position/retirement age of 55 through an increased contribution of 6.25%.
The current BA proposal states that ground staff can buy back to their current position for an extra 6.25%.
In BA’s latest pension proposals the buy back for Cabin Crew it is an additional 17.5%. Nearly 3 times the cost than for ground staff!
We must have the ability to move from NAPS1 to NAPS2 with no penalty on past contributions.
For main crew, if we don’t alter this proposal then you could be on a pension of approx £5,000 after 40 years of service. That is a poverty level pension by anybody’s standard. How will you live on that?
Crew have the lowest pensionable pay as a proportion of salary earned within our airline.
We need the reinstatement of medical pension provisions for Cabin Crew in line with pilots.
You should not be forced to work on the ground through ill health retirement unless a job can be found that is in reasonable commuting distance - 50 miles and one hour travel time from your home - at an according skill level and at a salary equivalent to your earnings as crew.
We had this until approximately 2 years ago until BA sponsored a move to remove it.
In 1997 part of the settlement was that BA agreed to look at a voluntary option to work beyond 55. They stated “no responsible employer could do this due to the known health risks of flying”. The also said that it would cost an extra £10 million per year in increased salary. Both these facts were repeated in court under oath at a subsequent tribunal.
They can’t have it both ways. If it costs £10 million to allow crew to work past 55, then if they retire at 55 they also save accordingly. We insist that this saving should be used to fund the ability for crew to have the option to retire at 55.
We also want guaranteed part-time opportunities to enable contract choice 5 years before your retirement choice date. This will also increase promotion opportunity.
SINGLE SUPERVISORY GRADE EUROFLEET
CSD X to be developed but with the maintenance of an agreed established figure of a minimum of 250.
FIXED LINKS EUROFLEET
We want savings to be used to create a standby payment of £20 per person per standby.
PREFERED DUTY FREE SELLER
We will never undermine your right to bid for your working position.
MAN - JFK
This route to be operated at LHR. We offered that LHR EF crew (volunteers only) would operate the above to create savings. BA insist this is an actual cost – funny that it is not a cost when they ask EF crew to operate other WW services.
LGW BREAKFAST ALLOWANCE
Hourly rate to be increased from £2.32 to £2.45 per hour.
900 HOURS
The law says you cannot fly above 900 hours; we want this to be honoured. Any “down time” to be made available to crew for rest and recuperation, as the law intended.
NEW STARTER RATES (POST '97)
We would like to clarify exactly where we are, especially in relation to the new starter rates.
One of the most important issues is new entrant pay and a clear and unequivocal joining of the two pay scales.
This remains at the top of our agenda. Due to the complexities involved and imminent industrial action, we told BA that as an immediate gesture of good will and a temporary fix, they should immediately add another 4 increments to the post 1997 pay scales. This would be a good foundation while talks continued to link the old and new scales.
£16,200
£17,000
£17,800
£18,600
We repeat the 4 increments was not a final position, merely a platform for further improvement. We hope that this reassures you. Indeed, as BA has now turned down even this basic request then that offer is now withdrawn.
In summary
Last Friday, we were quite shocked at BA’s response to our “list” as they aggressively rejected virtually everything amid a whirl of vitriol. We had costed it at around £10 - £11 million which, in the light of things, is surely not too much to ask for when resolving something as serious as industrial action. BA has since admitted that they handled things last Friday very badly and that their accountancy was “creative “ to say the least. Yet they still refuse to budge. We now believe that the issue is not about money but more a case of BA not wanting to admit they were wrong and not wanting to lose face.
This does rather sum up their style of management.
So the battle goes on. Please continue to place your trust in us; we will not let you down. Please do not listen to BA or Flight Deck propaganda.
Next Monday you will be participating in legal industrial action – you will not be sacked, have your contract changed etc, etc.
You are protected by the law. End of story!!!
Keep the faith. Don’t listen to rumour and be brave. We are all in this together - if negotiation fails then we will have no alternative but to see you on the picket line.
We are a democracy.
Any deal reached would have to be approved by you, our membership.
BASSA’s proposals for resolution of current industrial dispute.
We will always try to negotiate, right up to the 11th hour 59th minute. We will not give up trying but neither will we give up what we know to be right.
It is extremely unlikely now that we will be able to reach agreement on these issues. The progress made is simply nowhere near enough.
Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside in a responsible attempt to see if there was any possibility of resolving these issues through negotiation, even up to late last night.
For those of you who have never witnessed a major industrial negotiation, we felt you may be interested - and also it’s important to point out - that these are almost always done by a series of verbal exchanges across the table. Documents are never produced until the final stages and not until there is common ground between the two sides as the talks progress. Several drafts (there can number up to 50 versions) continue to be negotiated and then - and only then - if achieved, a final agreement document is produced.
Negotiation is never carried out by letter.
These talks produced a major change to this way of business and we allude to it in our latest update flyer. Despite there being NO common ground between us, British Airways management surprisingly arrived to the talks on Friday19th January with an extremely detailed and wordy letter. This contained what they believed to be not only their position but also more importantly, an extremely and deliberately distorted version of the position of BASSA.
More Dirty tricks?
Immediately we knew that this was the end of negotiation. They were not taking any of the issues seriously. This letter was not intended for us, it was to be leaked to the waiting media and the BA press office. It was an attempt to undermine the morale of crew in taking industrial action and in a cynical attempt to turn public mood against us, as crew, by trivialising our legitimate concerns. HOW ACCURATE OUR ASSUMPTION PROVED TO BE.
The most obvious example of this being the front page of yesterday’s - Toenail strike -Evening Standard. This was fed to them directly by the BA press office - we have the proof.
The irony should not be lost that in their letter they claim to “highly value” cabin crew. They then cynically mislead the press to cause public ridicule of these same “highly valued’ crew.
THESE ARE THE TACTICS OF A MANAGEMENT THAT PLACES LITTLE VALUE ON THE LOYALTY OF A DEDICATED AND HARDWORKING WORKFORCE. EXPECT MORE BAD PRESS…YOU WILL NOT NEED TO GUESS WHERE IT IS COMING FROM… WATERSIDE.
So, let us clarify the issues so you are in possession of the full facts as to why we are taking industrial action and to explain the issues we are fighting for on your behalf:
EG 300
This centres on the recognition that there are numerous conditions that could prevent you from flying when a ground-based person could easily continue to work. We demand recognition that flying is a unique environment with a unique impact upon health.
BA saves money by reducing the amount of fresh air circulated through the aircraft cabin. Humidifiers are also often deactivated for both passengers and cabin crew. This increases the risk of infection. They then punish crew for having higher sickness than an office clerk. The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level.
We are food handlers and safety professionals; the law places higher restrictions upon us.
BASSA’s position
We need a clear and defined list of recognised conditions that you cannot fly with that must be discounted from EG300.
Colds and flu with blocked ears - our eardrums can easily burst and our career ended.
Diarrhoea and vomiting - we are food handlers and cannot work by law.
Visible injury - we can’t work with plaster casts, slings, leg braces, disfigurement etc.
When BAHS has advised crew not to fly.
Broken limbs and one-off injuries.
Operations.
Cancer.
Severe emotional trauma through a life event - the death of a love one, victim of a violent crime etc.
Down route sickness.
Good sickness records should also be taken into account. We all get sick sometimes, that needs to be recognised and people helped not punished.
Flying Crew Orders must be amended to reflect this.
ARI’s need to be reduced. The right to representation acknowledged and when and where they occur agreed upon.
The process for “discounted sickness” to be made immediate and easier for crew through improved guidelines.
An appeals process for crew in the event of unfair treatment and/or decisions.
PURSER UPPER DECK 747
Simon Talling-Smith said that he isn’t going to impose this and yet we are still being told that they are going to do it at the first available opportunity.
BASSA’s position;
We can’t accept the removal of promotion opportunity coupled with the continuance of a discriminatory pay scale for post 1997 crew. It’s simply wrong.
DOWN ROUTE REPORT TIME
Management researched and acknowledged the legitimacy of our claim and said that to take into account the additional duty time to accommodate post September 11th security checks would cost an extra £6.2 million.
As a gesture of conciliation, BASSA agreed to give up our claim on this issue and use this cost instead towards improving the new entrant pay scales.
PENSIONS
Cabin Crew must have an option to buy back to their current position/retirement age of 55 through an increased contribution of 6.25%.
The current BA proposal states that ground staff can buy back to their current position for an extra 6.25%.
In BA’s latest pension proposals the buy back for Cabin Crew it is an additional 17.5%. Nearly 3 times the cost than for ground staff!
We must have the ability to move from NAPS1 to NAPS2 with no penalty on past contributions.
For main crew, if we don’t alter this proposal then you could be on a pension of approx £5,000 after 40 years of service. That is a poverty level pension by anybody’s standard. How will you live on that?
Crew have the lowest pensionable pay as a proportion of salary earned within our airline.
We need the reinstatement of medical pension provisions for Cabin Crew in line with pilots.
You should not be forced to work on the ground through ill health retirement unless a job can be found that is in reasonable commuting distance - 50 miles and one hour travel time from your home - at an according skill level and at a salary equivalent to your earnings as crew.
We had this until approximately 2 years ago until BA sponsored a move to remove it.
In 1997 part of the settlement was that BA agreed to look at a voluntary option to work beyond 55. They stated “no responsible employer could do this due to the known health risks of flying”. The also said that it would cost an extra £10 million per year in increased salary. Both these facts were repeated in court under oath at a subsequent tribunal.
They can’t have it both ways. If it costs £10 million to allow crew to work past 55, then if they retire at 55 they also save accordingly. We insist that this saving should be used to fund the ability for crew to have the option to retire at 55.
We also want guaranteed part-time opportunities to enable contract choice 5 years before your retirement choice date. This will also increase promotion opportunity.
SINGLE SUPERVISORY GRADE EUROFLEET
CSD X to be developed but with the maintenance of an agreed established figure of a minimum of 250.
FIXED LINKS EUROFLEET
We want savings to be used to create a standby payment of £20 per person per standby.
PREFERED DUTY FREE SELLER
We will never undermine your right to bid for your working position.
MAN - JFK
This route to be operated at LHR. We offered that LHR EF crew (volunteers only) would operate the above to create savings. BA insist this is an actual cost – funny that it is not a cost when they ask EF crew to operate other WW services.
LGW BREAKFAST ALLOWANCE
Hourly rate to be increased from £2.32 to £2.45 per hour.
900 HOURS
The law says you cannot fly above 900 hours; we want this to be honoured. Any “down time” to be made available to crew for rest and recuperation, as the law intended.
NEW STARTER RATES (POST '97)
We would like to clarify exactly where we are, especially in relation to the new starter rates.
One of the most important issues is new entrant pay and a clear and unequivocal joining of the two pay scales.
This remains at the top of our agenda. Due to the complexities involved and imminent industrial action, we told BA that as an immediate gesture of good will and a temporary fix, they should immediately add another 4 increments to the post 1997 pay scales. This would be a good foundation while talks continued to link the old and new scales.
£16,200
£17,000
£17,800
£18,600
We repeat the 4 increments was not a final position, merely a platform for further improvement. We hope that this reassures you. Indeed, as BA has now turned down even this basic request then that offer is now withdrawn.
In summary
Last Friday, we were quite shocked at BA’s response to our “list” as they aggressively rejected virtually everything amid a whirl of vitriol. We had costed it at around £10 - £11 million which, in the light of things, is surely not too much to ask for when resolving something as serious as industrial action. BA has since admitted that they handled things last Friday very badly and that their accountancy was “creative “ to say the least. Yet they still refuse to budge. We now believe that the issue is not about money but more a case of BA not wanting to admit they were wrong and not wanting to lose face.
This does rather sum up their style of management.
So the battle goes on. Please continue to place your trust in us; we will not let you down. Please do not listen to BA or Flight Deck propaganda.
Next Monday you will be participating in legal industrial action – you will not be sacked, have your contract changed etc, etc.
You are protected by the law. End of story!!!
Keep the faith. Don’t listen to rumour and be brave. We are all in this together - if negotiation fails then we will have no alternative but to see you on the picket line.
We are a democracy.
Any deal reached would have to be approved by you, our membership.
oh flips sake BASSA, you can't even get basic facts straight so why the heck should anyone believe any of your statements
The flight deck does not have a :"self contained atmosphere with higher oxygen levels".
The flight deck does not have a :"self contained atmosphere with higher oxygen levels".
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
atyourcervix73
IMHO, it’s a mistake to dismiss your colleagues who don’t support Bassa’s demands as “self-centered, utterly without compassion” etc. Should compassion extend to supporting demands they consider to be unreasonable and unrealistic?
The notion that ‘everyone should stand together and be supportive’ (even if they disagree with a particular group’s demands’) smacks of the sort of trade unionism which crippled this country a few decades ago. Surely we’ve moved on from that?
One thing which stands out to me as an outside observer of the discussion is that those who do not support Bassa have generally been much better informed, more logical in their arguments and accordingly more persuasive. (Carnage Matey and M.Mouse in particular have dealt with opposing arguments in detail instead of side-stepping them.) In contrast, those who support Bassa’s demands have largely been emotive and extremely ‘general’ rather than specific. eg Your recent post: “My other half ….. is prepared to stand her ground with her beliefs.....most of which relate to being treated with decency and respect.”
After no fewer than 168 posts, people on this thread still didn’t know what Bassa was actually demanding. One of the Moderators (Profile: Flight Attendant) intervened to ask if anyone could provide “a precise list of the specific BASSA demands and/or grievances behind this dispute (or a link to a site that does).” That produced a basic list of the demands, but we’re still rather short on arguments in support each of those demands. The pro-Bassa posters have been very reluctant to be drawn into the specifics. Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support? Or they fear the arguments will not bear scrutiny?
Bassa wants BA to abandon a plan to reduce the number of Pursers. Surely we’ve moved on from the “2 jobs when one will do” mentality? The notion that if BA do that they should (as some have suggested) increase pay to compensate seems to me to be bizarre when the objective of the proposal is to reduce unnecessary supervisory positions and thereby reduce the overall wages bill.
I don't doubt that EG300 may cause distress on occasions, but is it seriously suggested that BA should return to the ridiculously high sickness rates when people went sick to watch major sporting events or when they were rostered for destinations where they earned less money?
Questions about what BA CC actually earn were dismissed with variations of (quote) “Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.”
Comparisons with CC earnings in other UK airlines earn were dismissed (including by you) as irrelevant – “utterly different organisations”. Virgin?
If those figures are remotely accurate, is it surprising that many people (in and out of the industry) don’t regard that as being underpaid?
____________________________
Well, one of my questions has been answered while I was writing: "Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support?"
BASSA:
Isn't it normal (and desirable) to have clear proposals set out in writing for members to consider before inviting them to vote for a strike? 
.
IMHO, it’s a mistake to dismiss your colleagues who don’t support Bassa’s demands as “self-centered, utterly without compassion” etc. Should compassion extend to supporting demands they consider to be unreasonable and unrealistic?
The notion that ‘everyone should stand together and be supportive’ (even if they disagree with a particular group’s demands’) smacks of the sort of trade unionism which crippled this country a few decades ago. Surely we’ve moved on from that?
One thing which stands out to me as an outside observer of the discussion is that those who do not support Bassa have generally been much better informed, more logical in their arguments and accordingly more persuasive. (Carnage Matey and M.Mouse in particular have dealt with opposing arguments in detail instead of side-stepping them.) In contrast, those who support Bassa’s demands have largely been emotive and extremely ‘general’ rather than specific. eg Your recent post: “My other half ….. is prepared to stand her ground with her beliefs.....most of which relate to being treated with decency and respect.”
After no fewer than 168 posts, people on this thread still didn’t know what Bassa was actually demanding. One of the Moderators (Profile: Flight Attendant) intervened to ask if anyone could provide “a precise list of the specific BASSA demands and/or grievances behind this dispute (or a link to a site that does).” That produced a basic list of the demands, but we’re still rather short on arguments in support each of those demands. The pro-Bassa posters have been very reluctant to be drawn into the specifics. Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support? Or they fear the arguments will not bear scrutiny?
Bassa wants BA to abandon a plan to reduce the number of Pursers. Surely we’ve moved on from the “2 jobs when one will do” mentality? The notion that if BA do that they should (as some have suggested) increase pay to compensate seems to me to be bizarre when the objective of the proposal is to reduce unnecessary supervisory positions and thereby reduce the overall wages bill.
I don't doubt that EG300 may cause distress on occasions, but is it seriously suggested that BA should return to the ridiculously high sickness rates when people went sick to watch major sporting events or when they were rostered for destinations where they earned less money?
Questions about what BA CC actually earn were dismissed with variations of (quote) “Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.”
Comparisons with CC earnings in other UK airlines earn were dismissed (including by you) as irrelevant – “utterly different organisations”. Virgin?
Today ordinary crew can earn a maximum £27,373. Those promoted to pursers can earn £47,900, while a cabin services director can make £54,500. While this is at the top end of pay rates for the industry, it is less than can be earned by those that joined BA before 1997.
If those figures are remotely accurate, is it surprising that many people (in and out of the industry) don’t regard that as being underpaid?
____________________________
Well, one of my questions has been answered while I was writing: "Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support?"
BASSA:
Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside .......
.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 23rd Jan 2007 at 14:23.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East sussex
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can you supply facts and figures to support your comment re CC sickness "on a BOM".
Amazingly on my DEL that left Xmas eve, returning Boxing day we had one no-show out of 16 CC - that one person stuck in traffic, so I and many others would like to hear your story.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: edinburgh
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Plodding Along" you are just as narrow minded as "the heavy heavy".,Flight Crew are just as bad at deciding that they are not going to fly even though they'll only be slightly out of hours.one instance of fc flexibilty was a crew positioning n to operate out the next day were on a flight that was only delayed by 30 mins but they insisted that the morning service they were operating be delayed ecause of the times from chalk to chalk.now correct me if i'm wrong but they had just sat on their a***s for the whole time more than likely sleeping so how can you justify the delay to the high fare paying business passengers of that morning flight.
"Blu Riband" BA has constantly lied to many of the staff and when gimps like WW go to the media and say they are willing to talk but the unions aren't turning the public against staff it really is taking the p***.WW did this at EI and just about ruined it and we're meant to stand back an let him do the same to this company.get real. Flight crew managed to get there pension deal sorted and BA announced that it had sorted out the company wide pension problem but it is becoming more apparent that it was bulls**t.The cabin crew and ground staff have been shafted yet again and it wouldn't surprise me if the cabin crew are joined soon by the ground staff.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, it’s a mistake to dismiss your colleagues who don’t support Bassa’s demands as “self-centered, utterly without compassion” etc. Should compassion extend to supporting demands they consider to be unreasonable and unrealistic?
At no stage was it my intention to dismiss fellow colleagues who have a different viewpoint, indeed, I asked in a rhetorical fashion if the "self-centered, utterly without compassion" attitudes I have witnessed were representative.
However, in light of some the comments of messers Mouse and Carnage it is important to consider that they represent their views..as I do mine.
What is quite clear, is that certain sections of BA flightcrew view ANY difference of opinion with BA management that can potentially effect or delay their own industrial position is unreasonable. If the shoe were on the other foot perhaps? I wonder......
It would also be wrong of me to sit here and suggest that BASSA have operated without exaggeration or spin, however by the same measure, can it be assumed BA is squeaky clean? Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it is fair and reasonable to expect one to argue for your corner.
The final analysis in essense is simple, BASSA garnered 96% support for industrial action based on the votes cast.....BA management on the other hand have singularly failed to gain the trust of the CC.....WHY?
As someone else pointed out, a company gets the industrial relations it deserves..IMHO never a truer statement uttered.
Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside .......
Are the BASSA negotiators professional Cabin Crew themselves? Or are they full time BASSA officials with salaries paid by the union?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still don’t understand why the union is getting in a flap about ‘Reduced Promotion Opportunities’ with BA taking a purser position away on the 747-400. Does that mean that they should also have 4 CSD’s, and then there would be lots of promotion opportunities! As I have said before if BA gets smaller long haul aircraft to replace the 747’s in years to come the presumably there would be fewer promotion opportunities to long haul? Will that be an issue?
This one is really strange though:
As much as it isn’t very nice to have to give up flying because of a medical problem what is it to do with BA if you are fit for ground duties but you live over 50 miles from Base?!?!?
It is a personal choice where you live. Many people drive 50 miles each way to work every day and don’t have a problem so why should BA cabin crew be different? Does that mean any other employee of BA who lives over 50 miles from work can also claim early retirement and be paid for it? I don’t think so!!
I agree some things the cabin want are fair enough like being able to go to Funerals of people who might not be close relatives without going sick and things like that but some things take the P**s……………
This one is really strange though:
Retirement on appropriate benefits for any crew member no longer able to fly because of medical incapacity but who is fit for ground duties if they live more than 50 miles from their base.
It is a personal choice where you live. Many people drive 50 miles each way to work every day and don’t have a problem so why should BA cabin crew be different? Does that mean any other employee of BA who lives over 50 miles from work can also claim early retirement and be paid for it? I don’t think so!!
I agree some things the cabin want are fair enough like being able to go to Funerals of people who might not be close relatives without going sick and things like that but some things take the P**s……………
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: edinburgh
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can look at that part of BASSA's staement and sort of understand what they mean but your obviously blinkered fc.If a member of the General public was to read this they would probably agree.You sit i the flight deck not in the main part of the aircraft with all the passengers so you get no direct contact with the germs brought on by passengers
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: At home
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Straight out of the 757/767 Tech Manual
"The flightdeck recieves 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin"
In laymens terms...pretty much what BASSA say.
I dunno about the 777, 747-400, and i cant remember with the 320
In laymens terms...pretty much what BASSA say.
I dunno about the 777, 747-400, and i cant remember with the 320
tristar2
"but your (sic) obviously blinkered flightcrew"
Gee, thanks, you guys really know how to alienate those who have some sympathy with you......
My point was - IMHO, even as "blinkered flightcrew" I feel you as a community have a point over AMP - there is a difference between being fit for a ground job and fit to fly. However when BASSA spouts inaccurate mumbo jumbo like "separate atmospheres" it looks to me like another attempt to wind up the ante between BALPA and BASSA and another attempt to feed the rumours broadcast on Galley FM, because I cannot see any other reason for that comment in the BASSA statement - can you?
Regards from a still slightly sympathetic "blinkered flightcrew".
Gee, thanks, you guys really know how to alienate those who have some sympathy with you......
My point was - IMHO, even as "blinkered flightcrew" I feel you as a community have a point over AMP - there is a difference between being fit for a ground job and fit to fly. However when BASSA spouts inaccurate mumbo jumbo like "separate atmospheres" it looks to me like another attempt to wind up the ante between BALPA and BASSA and another attempt to feed the rumours broadcast on Galley FM, because I cannot see any other reason for that comment in the BASSA statement - can you?
Regards from a still slightly sympathetic "blinkered flightcrew".
Last edited by wiggy; 23rd Jan 2007 at 14:53. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Windsor
Age: 42
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dropping the sarcasm for a bit, it is true that during the flight we have to put up with a lot less hassle than the CC. We have to work just as hard and there are times during which our stress levels are very high. From my little experience (only been on line less than a year) I’ve always thought the CC have done a great job and always make a real effort to make sure we’re taken care of up front. I’ve never flown with a Skipper that’s had a bad word to say about the CC. So as far people saying that there is a divide between FD and CC at BA, I’ve never encountered any (on the airbus anyway).
I hope that we can sort this out without any IA but I don’t know which way it’s going to go.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A conclusion from Boeing with regard to cabin air. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cab...entilation.pdf Its not suprising that they are saying recirculated air is fine, but they are saying that cabin crew work in a unquie enviroment, with its unique effects on health.