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-   -   Is Ukraine about to have a war? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/639666-ukraine-about-have-war.html)

Right20deg 2nd Apr 2022 09:18


Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 11209494)
and of course welcoming refugees with open arms as long as they can provide utility bills with proof of address, translated into English and certified as a "true copy".................

Surely due precaution is required to eliminate the people smugglers and visiting red sparrows that are most definitely waiting to make a move ?
You are most welcome to keep refugees in the eu until checked and then, by all means we can take more. I am aware that the eu is rather preoccupied with energy problems of its own making and France with a lack of intelligence, but now sacked.

GeeRam 2nd Apr 2022 09:25


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209453)
not really, the Mosin-Nagant M91/30 was designed in 1891..
the Russian army used it from 1891 till 1917, and soviet army till the 60's. Must say that I had no idea they had saved the stocks and are really using them in 2022.

There are still crates of MN's in stores all across Russia.......despite many of the old reserve stocks being sold off to westerners during the past couple of decades.
They also still have stores full of 1000's of captured German K98k's and other captured German kit as well as unused lend-lease equipment, although, I think most of the US lend-lease stuff has been sold off now. I know there were a lot of NOS Harley WLA parts that came out of Russia back in the late 90's, as well as lots of Thompson SMG parts, from the crates of unissued Thompson SMG's from lend-lease discovered in arms stores in Russia in the 90's.
One of the K98k's I own is one that came out of Russian storage in the late 90's/early 2000's.

Beamr 2nd Apr 2022 09:45

Thanks, very interesting. Although the usefulness of all that WW2 era kit is next to nothing unless someone decides to arm millions of men with anything at hand and have them walk en masse to the front line. And that would not work anyway.

It is somewhat puzzling that they've decided not to use the most produced assault weapon in the world, the AK-47, but instead have provided the Donbass troops with the M91's and maxims. I've no idea what should be thought of it.

GeeRam 2nd Apr 2022 10:09


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209530)
Thanks, very interesting. Although the usefulness of all that WW2 era kit is next to nothing unless someone decides to arm millions of men with anything at hand and have them walk en masse to the front line. And that would not work anyway.

It is somewhat puzzling that they've decided not to use the most produced assault weapon in the world, the AK-47, but instead have provided the Donbass troops with the M91's and maxims. I've no idea what should be thought of it.

I think that's exactly why they never scrapped any of it (and refurbished millions of captured German kit after WW2) as it was to be able to hand every man & women (and most likely a child) in USSR as was, a rifle should that need arise.

MPN11 2nd Apr 2022 10:29

As I see it, the 7.62 M1930 with telescopic sight is deployed as an effective sniper rifle, despite its age. A completely different beast to an AK47/AK72, and certainly cheaper than a Dragunov SVD-63.

Article here ... https://min.news/en/military/ea4e6b5...b0b6fb35c.html

Just This Once... 2nd Apr 2022 10:49


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209499)
...and AN-2 biplanes, whats next, an ironclad in the black sea?

To be fair the last time I flew in a beautifully maintained and (very) frontline AN-2 was in this century. Admittedly it was a USAF example but their maintainers included Moldovans and Ukrainians.

drustsonoferp 2nd Apr 2022 10:53

I imagine it was a fairly long range shot, as it's against HAVOC using rockets in a bunt for indirect fire seemingly to get more range and stay out of manpads threat. Clearly still not far enough out of range.

Not a bad way to advertise performance of the missile.

Beamr 2nd Apr 2022 10:53

The M91 is definately a good basis for a sniper rifle, the Finnish version SAKO 28/30 had better (iron)sights that enabled it to be used as a sniper rifle even without a telescope. Verified by one farmer called Simo Häyhä.

The double maxim indeed has its potential too, but it is a heavy and clumsy weapon. Try detaching it from the tuk tuk in a hurry as an example.

The real issue is that those are usable in a guerrilla hit'n'run type toyotawarfare surely, but as an army against an enemy with modern kits those are rather useless. To make it blunt: otherwise NATO would use those as well. If you don't care for man losses and you have endless supply of mindless grunts, then why not. Now there's a doctrine that has lived with those weapons.

NutLoose 2nd Apr 2022 11:30

Don’t forget up until 1992 the U.K. was still using the 7.62 chambered Bren, more on the Maxim use

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-gun-in-combat

Beamr 2nd Apr 2022 11:41

I would like to take the opportunity to point out that 1992 was 30 years ago....
majority of the Russian forces fighting in Ukraine today weren't even born then.

Pali 2nd Apr 2022 12:38

Arming DNR and LNR forces with WW2 kit is the usual propaganda method which is not easily understood by western society. Putin is trying to push a concept that this war is only a continuation of the fight against fascism which never ended. "Denazification" of Ukraine is a battle cry. If you would understand more about Russian public opinion you would know that they are extremely proud how they succeeded to defeat Hitler and anything which opposes Russian imperial ambitions is automatically labeled as "fascist". This is a universal enemy. Even crushing Czechoslovakia in 1968 is explained till today in Russian state TV as a necessary step which prevented a "fascist coup" organised by western intelligence agencies. This is the very core of their propaganda.

The pictures of Maxim machine gun, traditional Red Army helmets and Mosin-Nagant is a well prepared publicity stunt. "Fathers who fought Wehrmacht gave their well preserved guns to their grandsons to carry the torch." This is a battle to win hearts of Russian Mr. Public and has a very little to do with real fight with Ukrainian armed forces. I personally doubt that they wouldn't have enough AK-47s somewhere in their arsenals.

NutLoose 2nd Apr 2022 12:38


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209594)
I would like to take the opportunity to point out that 1992 was 30 years ago....
majority of the Russian forces fighting in Ukraine today weren't even born then.


Ok Mills Grenade, introduced 1915, left final Indian service 2021

or the Lee Enfield, Canadian Rangers only phased that out recently as spares were becoming difficult.


.

Beamr 2nd Apr 2022 13:01


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11209610)
Ok Mills Grenade, introduced 1915, left final Indian service 2021

or the Lee Enfield, Canadian Rangers only phased that out recently as spares were becoming difficult.


.

this raises the question: what is the oldest western weapon still in active duty within western military (by design and/or manufacturing date)?
BUFF takes the date to 1950's, anything more vintage?

NutLoose 2nd Apr 2022 13:08


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209617)
this raises the question: what is the oldest western weapon still in active duty within western military (by design and/or manufacturing date)?
BUFF takes the date to 1950's, anything more vintage?

While the Lee-Enfield and Mosin-Nagant do still see use in irregular forces and by specialized units such as the Canadian Rangers, I believe the oldest weapon in widespread conventional military usage is the M2 Browning .50 Caliber machinegun. Designed in 1918, it's still in production and in use today, almost in its original form, as the US's main heavy machinegun, mounted on numerous vehicles, aircraft, fortifications, ships, and carried by heavy weapon infantry units, with no active plans to replace it. They’re so widespread, some M1A2 Abrams even carry two of them (in addition to two 7.62x51 M240s).


https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ol...active-service

Bksmithca 2nd Apr 2022 13:09


Originally Posted by Beamr (Post 11209617)
this raises the question: what is the oldest western weapon still in active duty within western military (by design and/or manufacturing date)?
BUFF takes the date to 1950's, anything more vintage?

Beamr, M2 Machine gun was designed in 1921 and is still used by a number of armies around the world

GeeRam 2nd Apr 2022 13:28

Aren't some USMC MEU units still using specially built M1911 pistols...?


NutLoose 2nd Apr 2022 14:25

The New York Times

@nytimes
·
Breaking News: The Biden administration will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to bolster Ukrainian defenses, the first time the U.S. has done so.

Barksdale Boy 2nd Apr 2022 14:27

Beamr
Given your spelling "definately", you must be a baddie from Line of Duty!

Buster Hyman 2nd Apr 2022 14:30


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11209647)
The Biden administration will work with allies to transfer Soviet-made tanks to bolster Ukrainian defenses, the first time the U.S. has done so.

Didn't they work with Israel to supply the Mujahedin (Not tanks) during Russia's jolly in Afghanistan?

Beamr 2nd Apr 2022 15:30


Originally Posted by Barksdale Boy (Post 11209648)
Beamr
Given your spelling "definately", you must be a baddie from Line of Duty!

Very observative! I need to start signing my messages,

- H


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