Is Ukraine about to have a war?

[NutLoose]

I wonder what the roof is rated to? I can imagine them firing the damned thing and dissapearing down several floors..
Panic in Moscow, what panic.

https://twitter.com/auto_glam/status...708288/photo/1

Twitter

[NutLoose]

[_Agrajag_]

Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan

Just read a surprising report. Rheinmetall says it could buy Challenger 1 tanks from Oman, uprate them ( how far not specified ) and deliver in 2023. No mention of quantity.

focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/debatte-um-panzer-lieferungen-usa-wollen-stryker-panzer-liefern-pistorius-trifft-heute-us-kollegen_id_183448749.html

Jordan also has some that may well be going spare. IIRC the UK deal with Jordan was partly a way to dispose of the hulls. We had some surplus Challenger 1s left over from the Challenger 2 programme (and the inevitable downsizing) and it was cheaper to refurbish them and sell them cheaply than it was to scrap them. I can't remember the exact details. Something to do with the cost of cutting up the hulls to render them as scrap, I think. Might be wrong. I got the story second or third hand whilst doing a stint as a contractor at a REME workshop.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_

What a bold (and false) assumption!



There were US guys in East Berlin. Only a handful and not as many, or as active, as us.

Their equivalent of Brixmis I presume. Sadly one died on duty...

[NutLoose]

Another for a window?

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/...93220265308160

Twitter

[_Agrajag_]

Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo

Their equivalent of Brixmis I presume. Sadly one died on duty...

Correct.

[_Agrajag_]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Another for a window?



https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/...93220265308160

Hard to be sure from the little we see. The impression I'm getting right now is that the level of disquiet within Russia about the war is growing. I hope this isn't wishful thinking on my part. Looking back to the start of the war there was very tight state control over what Russia was doing. They were arresting thousands just for calling the "special military operation" a war.

The "Нет войне!" ("No to war") slogan was shouted and put up as graffiti in many Russian towns and cities and the police came down hard on anyone that was anti-war. That was followed up by the state "Z" propaganda campaign. The Russian government then made it an offence to deface the "Z" posters and stickers, making it a terrorist act.

Unless it's my imagination there seem to be more and more public figures within Russia speaking out against the war. Let's hope that this may signal the beginning of the end of this madness. I remain convinced that the end of it will be when Putin and his cronies cease to be in control. Best option in my view is if the Russian people remove them from power.

[golfbananajam]

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_

What a bold (and false) assumption!



There were US guys in East Berlin. Only a handful and not as many, or as active, as us.

As https://www.coldwarspies.com/usmlm/ this demonstrates

[macmp419]

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_

Correct.

Worth a listen for a first hand perspective of the USMLM:

https://coldwarconversations.com/episode183/

https://coldwarconversations.com/episode185/

[NutLoose]

Take it elsewhere please.

Ok so far. Repetitions are due to different countries supplying them. And no matter how you look at it, that's a sh*t load of kit.

14 Challenger 2 tanks;
600 Brimstone missiles;
30 155mm AS90 SAU;
200 BMPS/BTRS;
200 Senator armored vehicles;
1 NASAMS air defense battery;
14 Leopard 2 tanks (most likely modification of A4);
100 Bradley BMPs;
100 M113 tracked APCs;
18 155mm SAU M109A6;
250 M1117 armored vehicles;
138 HMMWV off-road vehicles;
100 Stryker wheeled APCs;
GLSDB ammunition;
36 105mm howitzers;
1 Patriot air defense/protection battery;
6 Nasams air defense batteries;
18 RSZOS; 40 AMX-10RC wheeled tanks;
Bastion armored vehicles;
1 SAMP/T air defense/protection battery;
Several 155mm Caesar wheeled gunships;
40 Marder BMPs;
1 Patriot air defense/protection battery;
3 Iris-T air defense batteries + 3 TRML-4D radars;
2 RADARS TRML-4D;
16 Zuzana-2 155mm wheeled guns;
120 T-72M tanks;
1 Patriot air 50 CV-90 BMPS;
12 155-mm Archer wheeled gunships;
26-30 152mm Dana-M2 wheeled gunships;
10 155 mm FH70 howitzers;
10 122mm D30 howitzers.
defense/protection battery;

AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎 on Twitter: "An indicative list of all weapons and equipment that NATO countries intend to transfer to Ukraine in the near future: 🇬🇧 14 Challenger 2 tanks; 🇬🇧 600 Brimstone missiles; 🇬🇧 30 155mm AS90 SAU; 🇬🇧 200 BMPS/BTRS; 🇨🇦 200 Senator armored vehicles; 🇨🇦 1 NASAMS air defense battery;" / Twitter

AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎 on Twitter: "An indicative list of all weapons and equipment that NATO countries intend to transfer to Ukraine in the near future: 🇬🇧 14 Challenger 2 tanks; 🇬🇧 600 Brimstone missiles; 🇬🇧 30 155mm AS90 SAU; 🇬🇧 200 BMPS/BTRS; 🇨🇦 200 Senator armored vehicles; 🇨🇦 1 NASAMS air defense battery;" / Twitter

[_Agrajag_]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Take it elsewhere please.

My apologies. Gone to PM.

Originally Posted by NutLoose

Ok so far. Repetitions are due to different countries supplying them. And no matter how you look at it, that's a sh*t load of kit.

14 Challenger 2 tanks;
600 Brimstone missiles;
30 155mm AS90 SAU;
200 BMPS/BTRS;
200 Senator armored vehicles;
1 NASAMS air defense battery;
14 Leopard 2 tanks (most likely modification of A4);
100 Bradley BMPs;
100 M113 tracked APCs;
18 155mm SAU M109A6;
250 M1117 armored vehicles;
138 HMMWV off-road vehicles;
100 Stryker wheeled APCs;
GLSDB ammunition;
36 105mm howitzers;
1 Patriot air defense/protection battery;
6 Nasams air defense batteries;
18 RSZOS; 40 AMX-10RC wheeled tanks;
Bastion armored vehicles;
1 SAMP/T air defense/protection battery;
Several 155mm Caesar wheeled gunships;
40 Marder BMPs;
1 Patriot air defense/protection battery;
3 Iris-T air defense batteries + 3 TRML-4D radars;
2 RADARS TRML-4D;
16 Zuzana-2 155mm wheeled guns;
120 T-72M tanks;
1 Patriot air 50 CV-90 BMPS;
12 155-mm Archer wheeled gunships;
26-30 152mm Dana-M2 wheeled gunships;
10 155 mm FH70 howitzers;
10 122mm D30 howitzers.
defense/protection battery;




AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎 on Twitter: "An indicative list of all weapons and equipment that NATO countries intend to transfer to Ukraine in the near future: 🇬🇧 14 Challenger 2 tanks; 🇬🇧 600 Brimstone missiles; 🇬🇧 30 155mm AS90 SAU; 🇬🇧 200 BMPS/BTRS; 🇨🇦 200 Senator armored vehicles; 🇨🇦 1 NASAMS air defense battery;" / Twitter

That is one hell of a list. My concern is logistic support and training. Having capable kit is one thing. I have no doubt that Ukraine can train people quickly. It seems to be something they are very good at, along with adapting their tactics on the fly.

Keeping this disparate fleet of kit fuelled, armed and maintained is a hell of an ask, though. Logistic support is always tough, but trying to support such a wide range of kit that their logistics people aren't familiar with has to be a nightmare. Fingers crossed that they can rise to the challenge.

One big plus point for some of the kit (like the CV90s from Sweden) is that they are a lot easier to maintain than some of the other kit.

[MPN11]

Absolutely. A challenge for any Military in peacetime.

Keeping this disparate fleet of kit fuelled, armed and maintained is a hell of an ask, though. Logistic support is always tough, but trying to support such a wide range of kit that their logistics people aren't familiar with has to be a nightmare. Fingers crossed that they can rise to the challenge.

[Declan275]

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_

My apologies. Gone to PM.



That is one hell of a list. My concern is logistic support and training. Having capable kit is one thing. I have no doubt that Ukraine can train people quickly. It seems to be something they are very good at, along with adapting their tactics on the fly.

Keeping this disparate fleet of kit fuelled, armed and maintained is a hell of an ask, though. Logistic support is always tough, but trying to support such a wide range of kit that their logistics people aren't familiar with has to be a nightmare. Fingers crossed that they can rise to the challenge.

One big plus point for some of the kit (like the CV90s from Sweden) is that they are a lot easier to maintain than some of the other kit.

After the war is over, there’s going to be a fairly immense contract to be won when they decide to standardise their kit.

[_Agrajag_]

Originally Posted by Declan275

After the war is over, there’s going to be a fairly immense contract to be won when they decide to standardise their kit.

One might hope that there will be some more thought given to the enforcement of standards, too. NATO started out with the good intention to standardise kit, so that it was interoperable. This war has highlighted that a lot of NATO kit isn't fully interoperable.

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Declan275

After the war is over, there’s going to be a fairly immense contract to be won when they decide to standardise their kit.

Well they can’t say they haven’t had a chance to field test everything.
It will be interesting to see what they keep, expand on and what they put into reserve etc, the logistics for all the types must be horrendous.

I see the U.K. as ramped up the acquisition of new mobile artillery as Ukraine has shown the current A S90 is range limited and instead of replacement in the 2030’s it has been brought forward to the 2020’s and a lot of the contenders are in use in Ukraine which will give MOD feedback on their capability and reliability. Let’s just hope our MP’s don’t muck it up and order something cheap or bodge a a bigger gun in our current system at twice the cost of a replacement system.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...llery-weapons/

[Obba]

New Ben Wallace TV interview on the War.
Tells Putin "We're not going anywhere...!!"

Aired a few hours ago.

You Tube

[ORAC]

BREAKING: Several countries will announce sending Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine tomorrow at a meeting at the Ramstein Air Base, Lithuania's defence minister says - Reuters

[ORAC]

BREAKING: Nine countries jointly commit to collectively pursuing the delivery of an "unprecedented set of donations" to Ukraine, including main battle tanks - Reuters

The group includes the UK, Estonia, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Denmark, Czech Republic, Netherlands and Slovakia

The Tallinn Pledge

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/j...tallinn-pledge

We the Defence Ministers of Estonia, the United Kingdom, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania; and the representatives of Denmark, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and Slovakia met today, 19 January, to reaffirm our continued determination and resolve to supporting Ukraine in their heroic resistance against the illegal and unprovoked Russian aggression. We condemn Russia’s attacks designed to terrorise Ukraine’s people, including intentional attacks against the civilian population and civilian infrastructure which may constitute war crimes. We reject Russia’s ongoing violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, and its illegal claims to have annexed Ukrainian territory.

We recognise that equipping Ukraine to push Russia out of its territory is as important as equipping them to defend what they already have. Together we will continue supporting Ukraine to move from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil. By bringing together Allies and partners, we are ensuring the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible. The new level of required combat power is only achieved by combinations of main battle tank squadrons, beneath air and missile defence, operating alongside divisional artillery groups, and further deep precision fires enabling targeting of Russian logistics and command nodes in occupied territory.

Therefore, we commit to collectively pursuing delivery of an unprecedented set of donations including main battle tanks, heavy artillery, air defence, ammunition, and infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine’s defence. This substantial assistance to Ukraine comes from our own national stocks, and resources illustrating the mutual understanding of the severity of the situation and our commitment to urgently increase and accelerate support for Ukraine. Having made this “Tallinn Pledge”, we shall head to the Ukraine Defence Group meeting in Ramstein tomorrow 20 January and urge other Allies and partners to follow suit and contribute their own planned packages of support as soon as possible to ensure a Ukrainian battlefield victory in 2023.…

[more follows, including a list of current planned donations by nation]

[_Agrajag_]

I REALLY hope this comes off. Combined with the apparent increased willingness for some within Russia to speak out against the war, perhaps this might just ram home the message that Ukraine really does have the support of many nations, not just the USA. (I posted something relating to increased Russian internal opposition earlier but it got lost for some reason - something to do with moderation, absolutely no idea why).

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_

I REALLY hope this comes off. Combined with the apparent increased willingness for some within Russia to speak out against the war, perhaps this might just ram home the message that Ukraine really does have the support of many nations, not just the USA. (I posted something relating to increased Russian internal opposition earlier but it got lost for some reason - something to do with moderation, absolutely no idea why).

If a little humor is in order:

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