Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Is Ukraine about to have a war?

Old 20th Jan 2023, 12:00
  #13701 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,381
Received 1,581 Likes on 719 Posts
👀👀 🙄🙄

BREAKING: German government spokesperson says that there was never a moment when the delivery of Leopard tanks was "linked with the delivery of abrams tanks" - Reuters
ORAC is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 12:17
  #13702 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting not home
Age: 46
Posts: 4,319
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose



As of yesterday!
The graphics also misses Czechia and Oesterreich.
FlightDetent is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 20th Jan 2023, 12:39
  #13703 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,856
Received 2,811 Likes on 1,198 Posts
They probably hadn't declared when he did it, I did point out it was a day or so old.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 12:41
  #13704 (permalink)  
Tabs please !
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Biffins Bridge
Posts: 950
Received 324 Likes on 194 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
Gvernment spokesperson says that there was never a moment when the delivery of Leopard tanks was "linked with the delivery of abrams tanks" - Reuters
Allow me to translate.......

"We originally invented a false dependency on the US doing something difficult that would prevent us from supplying tanks. Now that everyone else has ignored us, we look incredibly stupid. We will now supply Leopard tanks and the order with the factory shall be placed in 2024. In the meantime, would you like any more helmets......... or kettles .......or golf clubs ?"
B Fraser is online now  
The following 2 users liked this post by B Fraser:
Old 20th Jan 2023, 13:11
  #13705 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: EHEH
Posts: 527
Received 239 Likes on 76 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose
It's ok Russia mobilising troops, but when they attack like this, they are just fertilizer.



https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/16...Cy9aSR0u4sAAAA
Taken from a drone and presumably not within range of UA forces. Otherwise there would already be a few bodies in that field. I suggest the picture paints a false conclusion!
FUMR is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 13:51
  #13706 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Rhone-Alpes
Posts: 1,172
Received 275 Likes on 154 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
👀👀 🙄🙄



BREAKING: German government spokesperson says that there was never a moment when the delivery of Leopard tanks was "linked with the delivery of abrams tanks" - Reuters
That "spokesman" was the new Defence Minister - Pistorius. It is just astonishing how these two-faced lying bastards have the nerve to spin 180 in 24 hours and somehow continue to believe that their voters continue to see them as honourable representatives of the nation . Unfortunately, however, the voters know that the other side are just as twisted.

EDIT:

Nutty has given a comprehensive breakdown of new pledges for armaments, but I thought I could add a couple of interesting facts about Ramstein picked up in general reading.

There are 53 000 American personnel stationed there ( that was a hell of a surprise. I would have guessed at 10 000 )
The public ( probably not Russians ) can visit the airfield ( unsure what that means exactly ) Monday to Friday at no charge. That must be your tax-dollars at work -tdracer and LoneWolf50 !! Pretty surprising to me though. I have never heard about permanent public access to a military establishment of any sort and Ramstein does have some very important functions.

Last edited by Tartiflette Fan; 20th Jan 2023 at 14:03.
Tartiflette Fan is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 14:10
  #13707 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,856
Received 2,811 Likes on 1,198 Posts
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
That "spokesman" was the new Defence Minister - Pistorius. It is just astonishing how these two-faced lying bastards have the nerve to spin 180 in 24 hours and somehow continue to believe that their voters continue to see them as honourable representatives of the nation . Unfortunately, however, the voters know that the other side are just as twisted.
The problem with that is it may not be so, or at least for German tanks, and you have to listen to your electors.

Most Germans against sending Leopard tanks to Ukraine

Of the 2,025 respondents, 43% opposed the delivery and only 39% were in favour. Another 16% did not express a position, the survey, conducted for dpa by the polling institute YouGov, showed.

One in three respondents (33%) think this is already too much. Another 24% say the volume of deliveries is just right, while 25% demand more German military support for Ukraine.

Despite the reticence of the YouGov poll respondents towards having their country export the tanks, most are not opposed to other countries doing so. A total of 47% would be in favour, with 38% against and 16% undecided.

Berlin must approve any transfer of the tanks, which 20 countries have in their arsenals.

Poland and Finland have already said they would send Leopards to Ukraine. Unlike the Soviet-era tanks that comprise most of Ukraine's heavy armour, the tanks have advanced capabilities such as thermal optics.

https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/...nks-to-ukraine
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other...ur/ar-AA16vIo6
NutLoose is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 14:15
  #13708 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,856
Received 2,811 Likes on 1,198 Posts
https://www.defense.gov/News/Release...e-for-ukraine/

So 109 Bradley in total.

When you add it all up it is eye watering, see

https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jan/1...EET-JAN-19.PDF
NutLoose is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 14:29
  #13709 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,856
Received 2,811 Likes on 1,198 Posts
This guy makes some sensible comments on hitting the transport infrastructure and backs it up with images of key points.

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA

From the Beeb


Germany’s Leopard 2 main battle tank, produced by Rheinmetall, is Europe’s most popular tank.

It’s been bought by more than a dozen nations, some of whom - namely Poland and Finland - are ready to send theirs to Ukraine right now.

But there’s a problem.

Under Germany’s export regulations, countries buying its tanks need a re-export licence from the German government before passing them on to anyone else.

The US has similar restrictions.

The Ukrainians can barely contain their frustration at this, as they say they need at least 300 modern, western tanks immediately if they are going to have any chance of repelling the coming spring offensive by Russia.

But Olaf Scholz’s government is wary of antagonising Russia and does not want to be seen to be out of step with its allies.

It has indicated that it first needs the US to give a green light to sending its own advanced M1 Abrams tanks and that is not something Washington is yet ready to do.
So why can they not simply "retain ownership" and loan them to Ukraine for an indefinite time on the agreement they will be returned when Ukraine deems they have finished with the loan?


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 20th Jan 2023 at 15:09.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 15:56
  #13710 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: PLanet Earth
Posts: 1,329
Received 104 Likes on 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan
There are 53 000 American personnel stationed there ( that was a hell of a surprise. I would have guessed at 10 000 )
In Ramstein Air Base itself ~9000 US staff are working/stationed.
It is the whole Kaiserlautern area with Kaiserslautern Army Depot,Daenner-casern, Kleber-casern, Tank casern Kaiserslautern, Sembach, Pirmasens and a few more installations where some 50.000 US troops are stationed.
henra is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 20th Jan 2023, 15:58
  #13711 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 51.50N 1W (ish)
Posts: 1,141
Received 30 Likes on 13 Posts
The German excuse appears to be fear of Russian escalation. Russia (without direct external escalation) has continued to escalate itself. (Long range missiles targeting critical infrastructure, mobilisation, energy war against Europe, mass murder of civilians..)

What further escalation is feared?

Nuclear weapons ? Directly attacking a NATO country?

Either would be suicide for Russia, the Russian armed forces know that. Would they obey Putin's order to commit suicide?
Fitter2 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 16:32
  #13712 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 154
Received 39 Likes on 27 Posts
Originally Posted by Fitter2
The German excuse appears to be fear of Russian escalation.
What further escalation is feared?
A better explanation for Scholz's stalling would be Putinversteher:

Originally Posted by anxiao
More than 50 years after Brandt launched his “Ostpolitik” initiative, it’s now being used as an excuse for what Germans call a “Putinversteher” – which literally translates as “Putin understander”. The term is a pejorative reference to politicians, who insist the Russian leader’s expansionist interests are justified, as well as anti-American pundits pushing back against Washington’s calls for Germany’s energy security.

“There are dense networks of money, influence and politics between the SPD and Russia. They hang out in the board rooms of energy companies, trying to build solidarity with Russia while just raking in the money,” explained Nick Spicer, FRANCE 24’s Berlin correspondent. “The question is whether Scholz is going to call out his former SPD colleague.”
Perhaps Scholz needs the support of these networks to stay in power?
Sfojimbo is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 16:33
  #13713 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,381
Received 1,581 Likes on 719 Posts
👀👀👀👀
More than 170 Hungarian generals and senior military officers have been forced into early retirement in recent days by Hungary's MoD, led by Kristóf Szalay-Bobrovniczky.

He is a former business partner of Transmashholding, a Russian state-owned company.

A new government decree has allowed the Minister of Defense to unilaterally terminate the service of soldiers who have reached the age of 45 and have at least 25 years of actual service, with two months' notice.

According to @Telexhu, the minister "dismissed members of the Defence Staff en masse. (...) One source said (...) that at least a hundred colonels, generals had been given unilateral dismissals, while another said that 157 (...) with immediate effect."

According to opposition MP Ágnes Vadai, "this means there is a de-NATOisation going on in the Hungarian Defence Forces at the moment", as "the 45-year-old officers and generals are soldiers with international experience, who speak languages and have been socialised in NATO".….

https://telex.hu/belfold/2023/01/20/...galati-viszony

ORAC is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 16:43
  #13714 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Co. Down
Age: 82
Posts: 832
Received 241 Likes on 75 Posts
Originally Posted by Declan275
After the war is over, there’s going to be a fairly immense contract to be won when they decide to standardise their kit.
And just watch the Germans stampede to grab sales of the new kit ...
Geriaviator is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 16:48
  #13715 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,381
Received 1,581 Likes on 719 Posts

And just watch the Germans stampede to grab sales of the new kit ...
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me…..
ORAC is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 17:30
  #13716 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: England
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Its the reconstruction contracts of the country where the big money will be made.

Those who gave a lot of help will expect a large slice of that pie.

Last estimate I saw was in excess of $6 trillion to build new infrastructure etc.

mikeoneflying is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 18:21
  #13717 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,407
Received 180 Likes on 88 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
BREAKING: German government spokesperson says that there was never a moment when the delivery of Leopard tanks was "linked with the delivery of abrams tanks" - Reuters
My understanding is that much of the reluctance to send Abrams tanks is related to the high tech systems (targeting, communication, etc.) falling into the wrong hands. I know that in the Middle East, when an Abrams was disabled and couldn't be recovered, they made a point of destroying it so the 'bad guys' couldn't access anything valuable.
So, how does the tech of the Leopard compare to the Abrams? I'd think they'd be similar - does anyone know?
tdracer is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 18:38
  #13718 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 251
Received 78 Likes on 42 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
👀👀👀👀
More than 170 Hungarian generals and senior military officers have been forced into early retirement in recent days by Hungary's MoD, led by Kristóf Szalay-Bobrovniczky.

He is a former business partner of Transmashholding, a Russian state-owned company.

A new government decree has allowed the Minister of Defense to unilaterally terminate the service of soldiers who have reached the age of 45 and have at least 25 years of actual service, with two months' notice.

According to @Telexhu, the minister "dismissed members of the Defence Staff en masse. (...) One source said (...) that at least a hundred colonels, generals had been given unilateral dismissals, while another said that 157 (...) with immediate effect."

According to opposition MP Ágnes Vadai, "this means there is a de-NATOisation going on in the Hungarian Defence Forces at the moment", as "the 45-year-old officers and generals are soldiers with international experience, who speak languages and have been socialised in NATO".….

https://telex.hu/belfold/2023/01/20/...galati-viszony
I can't say that this comes as a surprise. Hungary has been moving away from the ideals of NATO (and the EU for that matter) for a while. What puzzles me is that the views of many Hungarians (perhaps a majority) are at odds with those of Viktor Orbán, yet he remains in power and has been emulating Putin in turning Hungary into an autocracy. Seems strange for a country that suffered when under the thumb of the Soviet Union to put up with this.
_Agrajag_ is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 18:42
  #13719 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,260
Received 643 Likes on 233 Posts
Originally Posted by tdracer
My understanding is that much of the reluctance to send Abrams tanks is related to the high tech systems (targeting, communication, etc.) falling into the wrong hands. I know that in the Middle East, when an Abrams was disabled and couldn't be recovered, they made a point of destroying it so the 'bad guys' couldn't access anything valuable.
So, how does the tech of the Leopard compare to the Abrams? I'd think they'd be similar - does anyone know?
A recurring military problem.
Window was subject to agonising appraisal before being used to save Bomber Command lives.
Historically best to "use it when you need it, and be one step ahead for when countermeasures are invented".
langleybaston is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2023, 18:44
  #13720 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: SW England
Age: 72
Posts: 251
Received 78 Likes on 42 Posts
Originally Posted by tdracer
My understanding is that much of the reluctance to send Abrams tanks is related to the high tech systems (targeting, communication, etc.) falling into the wrong hands. I know that in the Middle East, when an Abrams was disabled and couldn't be recovered, they made a point of destroying it so the 'bad guys' couldn't access anything valuable.
So, how does the tech of the Leopard compare to the Abrams? I'd think they'd be similar - does anyone know?
Used to be standard to have detonators rigged in anything sensitive. Goes right back to the earliest airborne radars I think. Certainly kit I worked on in the 70's and 80's had the capability to fit detonators for this purpose. No idea if modern kit has the same capability. Be surprised if it didn't, though.
_Agrajag_ is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.