British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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To avoid the risk of a successful unfair dismissal claim employers must be able to demonstrate a substantively fair reason for making the change and must be careful to carry out appropriate procedures prior to terminating an existing contract as of course termination amounts to dismissal.
"Appropriate procedures" is why BA have been so keen to keep the door open for negotiation. ie. It's not their fault if negotiations have failed.
Contract termination and SOSR are still very much on the table as options.
Edit: Termination of a contract is not strictly the same as dismissal. Another contract may be offered on different terms. If not, then it becomes dismissal.
Another edit: Having read your link (well spotted, by the way), we're back into the realms of the word "contractual". If your working agreements are not contractual, they can be terminated relatively easily without resorting to termination of contracts. Beware what is contractual and what isn't, as those coming to work on Hotlines are finding out....
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Human Factor
Now this contractual term is the question that should hopefully be doing the rounds within BASSA and Unite HQ's.
It is the muddying of terms that I am debating here. I think (note think) that you do not change a contract using SOSR. An employer will defend against unfair dismissal using SOSR.
It is also where the case would be heard, either at a tribunal or civil courts and what happens if claims are successful.
Again, this is what I think, not what is fact, so I am willing to be directed and corrected.
It is the muddying of terms that I am debating here. I think (note think) that you do not change a contract using SOSR. An employer will defend against unfair dismissal using SOSR.
It is also where the case would be heard, either at a tribunal or civil courts and what happens if claims are successful.
Again, this is what I think, not what is fact, so I am willing to be directed and corrected.
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Mods sorry..please dont ban, please delete if you must, I understand.
However:
Lite,
U mean employee surely?
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
However:
Lite,
An employer will defend against unfair dismissal using SOSR.
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
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If BA do go nuclear I suspect UNITE will do as well.
The word around is that Mr B*** S***
opps, I mean Branch Secretary has given full interviews to The Guardian, The Sunday Times, The Telegraph, The Sun and various media outlets. Apparently he is on the Victoria Derbyshire show on Radio Five Live at 10am on Tuesday, this time as himself not as 'Richard' when he did the interview previously. He is being egged on by other BASSA members to go ape as the gagging order is off.
My concern is that he will drag BA down, however in doing so he may jeopardize his appeal. Not a dignified way of going about things, in my opinion.
I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views.
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U mean employee surely?
As I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
SOSR is a potentially fair way to dismiss an employee, but it is for the courts to decide, if a claim is made against unfair dismissal
As I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
SOSR is a potentially fair way to dismiss an employee, but it is for the courts to decide, if a claim is made against unfair dismissal
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Actually BA don't need to do anything.
We are operating with their required crew complements so they continue to make the savings they need.
If there is a strike BA are now fully aware of their operational capabilities. I would imagine we can run near on a full schedule.
Customer satisfaction levels went up during the last strike so BA will be hopeful that our loyal customers will not now be deterred.
I would say our biggest headache at the moment is volcanic ash and I would
imagine time and effort is being focused on that.
All BA have to do is let the strikers strike until the 12 week expiration date then dismiss them. Job done. I sincerely don't want to see this happen
but it is a very real possibility and strikers seriously need to consider their own fate now. This time it could be way more than staff travel you lose.
I am saddened every time I fly to see that BASSA continue to lead decent, hard-working cabin crew colleagues down this road to self-destruction. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. My only hope now is that the BASSA pepetrators of this ridiculous situation are one day brought to task.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own view and not that of BA.
We are operating with their required crew complements so they continue to make the savings they need.
If there is a strike BA are now fully aware of their operational capabilities. I would imagine we can run near on a full schedule.
Customer satisfaction levels went up during the last strike so BA will be hopeful that our loyal customers will not now be deterred.
I would say our biggest headache at the moment is volcanic ash and I would
imagine time and effort is being focused on that.
All BA have to do is let the strikers strike until the 12 week expiration date then dismiss them. Job done. I sincerely don't want to see this happen
but it is a very real possibility and strikers seriously need to consider their own fate now. This time it could be way more than staff travel you lose.
I am saddened every time I fly to see that BASSA continue to lead decent, hard-working cabin crew colleagues down this road to self-destruction. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. My only hope now is that the BASSA pepetrators of this ridiculous situation are one day brought to task.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own view and not that of BA.
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When the 12 weeks runs out I'm not sure you can simply re-ballot.
The Trade Union and Labour relations act (1992) sect 233 deals with 'Calling of industrial action with support of ballot'. Sect 3(a) says:
'there must have been no call by the trade union to take part or continue to take part in industrial action to which the ballot relates, or any authorisation or endorsement by the union of any such industrial action, before the date of the ballot;'.
This was amended by the Employment Relations Act 2004 which amongst other things introduced the protected period. It doesn't amend sect 233 as far as I can see. Would the intent of the law really provide for an indefinite dispute?
The Trade Union and Labour relations act (1992) sect 233 deals with 'Calling of industrial action with support of ballot'. Sect 3(a) says:
'there must have been no call by the trade union to take part or continue to take part in industrial action to which the ballot relates, or any authorisation or endorsement by the union of any such industrial action, before the date of the ballot;'.
This was amended by the Employment Relations Act 2004 which amongst other things introduced the protected period. It doesn't amend sect 233 as far as I can see. Would the intent of the law really provide for an indefinite dispute?
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Dismissals
HiFlyer14 wrote:
The 12-week protection period gives the union protection from being sued and strikers from being sacked. After that period, it would be illegal to sack employees who have returned to work.
BA could still reduce crew by serving a 90-day SOSR at any time and ask them to sign a new contract (say for NF). Anyone who refuses to sign could then be sacked, the substantial reason being something like company survival.
All BA have to do is let the strikers strike until the 12 week expiration date then dismiss them.
BA could still reduce crew by serving a 90-day SOSR at any time and ask them to sign a new contract (say for NF). Anyone who refuses to sign could then be sacked, the substantial reason being something like company survival.
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Mods my apologies..last post here, please delete, if/as you see fit.
Lite...
I note you did in fact mean employee.
[QUOTEAs I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
SOSR is a potentially fair way to dismiss an employee, but it is for the courts to decide, if a claim is made against unfair dismissal][/QUOTE]
And that is the rub...the courts will decide.. balance of evidence would appear to be in BA's favour.
Lite...
I note you did in fact mean employee.
[QUOTEAs I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
and
the reason for SOSR is surely to bring in a new contract...why else?
SOSR is a potentially fair way to dismiss an employee, but it is for the courts to decide, if a claim is made against unfair dismissal][/QUOTE]
And that is the rub...the courts will decide.. balance of evidence would appear to be in BA's favour.
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Mods my apologies..last post here, please delete, if/as you see fit.
Lite...
I note you did in fact mean employee.
As I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
Lite...
I note you did in fact mean employee.
As I understand it, the employee will be bringing a claim of unfair dismissal to a tribunal/court and the employer will be defending against the claim
As for the courts to decide, I agree absolutely.
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food for thought
Was googling 'sack barrow' for a potential purchase. On inadvertantly 'space barring' after ba...the predictive suggestion showed 'sack ba cabin crew'. Curious, I entered it, and was amazed at the opinions globally too.
Lots of angry people out there guys. Not just us, (the staff, passengers and general public), you really have little support over this. Don't allow the union to use you for their own political gain/ideals.
Lots of angry people out there guys. Not just us, (the staff, passengers and general public), you really have little support over this. Don't allow the union to use you for their own political gain/ideals.
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It is about due process and will try in your terms.
I am the employer and you are the employee.
I have dismissed you.
You may bring a claim that you have been unfairly dismissed. I would have to defend my actions against unfair dismissal and in BA's case the defence would appear to be SOSR.
At no point are you, the employee, defending anything.
The judge would then decide if I acted reasonably in my SOSR defence.
I am the employer and you are the employee.
I have dismissed you.
You may bring a claim that you have been unfairly dismissed. I would have to defend my actions against unfair dismissal and in BA's case the defence would appear to be SOSR.
At no point are you, the employee, defending anything.
The judge would then decide if I acted reasonably in my SOSR defence.
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The word around is that Mr B*** S*** opps, I mean Branch Secretary has given full interviews to The Guardian, The Sunday Times, The Telegraph, The Sun and various media outlets. Apparently he is on the Victoria Derbyshire show on Radio Five Live at 10am on Tuesday, this time as himself not as 'Richard' when he did the interview previously.
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LD
I think that the events of the past year have shown that forward thinking and strategic planning are not among his strengths.
I can obviously imagine that his mind is in some turmoil right now, following the life-changing judgement passed on him this week, and can see that he would want to extract what he sees as vengeance on BA and any other groups he sees as having been a party to his downfall.
As you say though, I think a stitch-up is more likely, with stories of fat-cat union leaders, £460,000 houses, 20 hours flying in the last 12 months, £42,000 salary plus Unite union pay featuring heavily in any printed articles.
I think someone should have cautioned him against these interviews.
Maybe though, he just wants to be a "martyr to the cause" ?
The result however, is that he will be forgotten by all but the deluded fanatical followers of BASSA within 24 hours, and the papers will be used to wrap the cat litter/last nights chinese takeaway/etc in and thrown away with the rest of the garbage.
I think that the events of the past year have shown that forward thinking and strategic planning are not among his strengths.
I can obviously imagine that his mind is in some turmoil right now, following the life-changing judgement passed on him this week, and can see that he would want to extract what he sees as vengeance on BA and any other groups he sees as having been a party to his downfall.
As you say though, I think a stitch-up is more likely, with stories of fat-cat union leaders, £460,000 houses, 20 hours flying in the last 12 months, £42,000 salary plus Unite union pay featuring heavily in any printed articles.
I think someone should have cautioned him against these interviews.
Maybe though, he just wants to be a "martyr to the cause" ?
The result however, is that he will be forgotten by all but the deluded fanatical followers of BASSA within 24 hours, and the papers will be used to wrap the cat litter/last nights chinese takeaway/etc in and thrown away with the rest of the garbage.
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Topbunk,
I think that 'martyr to the cause' is along the right lines. What he did was akin to driving at 100mph down the M1 waving at a police car as you pass it by. We may not like the rules, but if we blatantly disobey them we should be prepared to take the consequences.
I think that 'martyr to the cause' is along the right lines. What he did was akin to driving at 100mph down the M1 waving at a police car as you pass it by. We may not like the rules, but if we blatantly disobey them we should be prepared to take the consequences.
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Lets hope when this is all over we still have a company to work for!!
I think people are deluded if they think that the company will back down!!
I know of one crew member who voted for strike action and to reject the offer but continues to fly as she is a commuter. Must be lot's of crew like that.
Have the strength in your conviction and if you vote to strke follow it through and do so.
If you cannot afford to lose money or staff travel then you should have voted to accept the offer.
I am sure this latest announcement has attracted even more people to become VCC
I think people are deluded if they think that the company will back down!!
I know of one crew member who voted for strike action and to reject the offer but continues to fly as she is a commuter. Must be lot's of crew like that.
Have the strength in your conviction and if you vote to strke follow it through and do so.
If you cannot afford to lose money or staff travel then you should have voted to accept the offer.
I am sure this latest announcement has attracted even more people to become VCC
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Posted on the BBC radio 4 forum today:
"Please don't talk of 'British Airways staff' planning to strike. It is only the insane militants of BASSA that plan to strike. The pilots, the engineers, the flight planners, the check-in staff, the administrators, the cleaners, the managers, indeed all the rest of the airline are against the cabin crew strike.
Many have volunteered to operate as temporary cabin crew, and all have agreed to changed work patterns and frozen pay rates.
Up till now BA cabin crew have operated like a separate empire within the airline, and successive managers have not had the guts to confront them. This time I hope Willie Walsh will prevail and bring the BASSA saboteurs to heel. The core militants deserve no sympathy and should be thrown out without pension or staff travel rights."
"Please don't talk of 'British Airways staff' planning to strike. It is only the insane militants of BASSA that plan to strike. The pilots, the engineers, the flight planners, the check-in staff, the administrators, the cleaners, the managers, indeed all the rest of the airline are against the cabin crew strike.
Many have volunteered to operate as temporary cabin crew, and all have agreed to changed work patterns and frozen pay rates.
Up till now BA cabin crew have operated like a separate empire within the airline, and successive managers have not had the guts to confront them. This time I hope Willie Walsh will prevail and bring the BASSA saboteurs to heel. The core militants deserve no sympathy and should be thrown out without pension or staff travel rights."
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28L
My post was an attempt to see the opposite viewpoint.
My personal opinion is totally opposite - I think that he has been instrumental in deluding many impressional BA Cabin Crew, and deserves nothing less than utter and total contempt for his actions. If he ends up with a parachute into a union job, then that would just re-inforce my view.
He, and his type, are, imho, exactly the type that BA need to get rid off in order to protect the jobs of the sane majority and move forward into the 21st Century.
Nonetheless, I still contend that he has lacked sensible advice when it comes to these interviews.
My post was an attempt to see the opposite viewpoint.
My personal opinion is totally opposite - I think that he has been instrumental in deluding many impressional BA Cabin Crew, and deserves nothing less than utter and total contempt for his actions. If he ends up with a parachute into a union job, then that would just re-inforce my view.
He, and his type, are, imho, exactly the type that BA need to get rid off in order to protect the jobs of the sane majority and move forward into the 21st Century.
Nonetheless, I still contend that he has lacked sensible advice when it comes to these interviews.
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Please Please dont tar us all with the same brush !!! Remember alot of Cabin Crew came in during the last strike , Lots have left the union and lots did not believe in the strike ...
I will be coming in if there is a strike as I do not believe in my union , like many of us ... so again please please dont tar us all... many of us are hard working , good crew who will be in during a strike despite the intimidation we may suffer .... its not only Pilots , engineers, Ground Crew .. its the hard working honest Crew that will be in too ....
I will be coming in if there is a strike as I do not believe in my union , like many of us ... so again please please dont tar us all... many of us are hard working , good crew who will be in during a strike despite the intimidation we may suffer .... its not only Pilots , engineers, Ground Crew .. its the hard working honest Crew that will be in too ....
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I will be coming in if there is a strike as I do not believe in my union , like many of us ... so again please please dont tar us all... many of us are hard working , good crew who will be in during a strike despite the intimidation we may suffer .... its not only Pilots , engineers, Ground Crew .. its the hard working honest Crew that will be in too .... 
Please don't worry, the posters here are not referring to the likes of you and me and many other cabin crew who backed BA and came to work. The references here are to the militant minority. The strike was a washout previously and it will be again. As for the intimidation, I refuse to tolerate it and BA were and are extremely supportive. It's zero tolerance to anyone who dares intimidate or harass anyone who chooses to come to work.
I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views.