British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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BillS, its only a 3 week suspension, by my reckoning, in order to keep the recent ballot "alive" then BASSA/UNITE must have 1 days strike before the 22nd March, thus having to give notice of such a strike by the 15th March.
Remember also that BASSA can't just snap its fingers and call for a strike tomorrow they must give 7 days notice, I don't think the company will be that perturbed with these events, it was no secret according to my information. In fact a UNITE official was talking openly about it last night to crew.
"Anotherthing" Ref the 14/15th Sorry I was working on the assumption that in the current climate BA would not agree to extend the period available for strike action
Remember also that BASSA can't just snap its fingers and call for a strike tomorrow they must give 7 days notice, I don't think the company will be that perturbed with these events, it was no secret according to my information. In fact a UNITE official was talking openly about it last night to crew.
"Anotherthing" Ref the 14/15th Sorry I was working on the assumption that in the current climate BA would not agree to extend the period available for strike action
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The company might not be too perturned about these events (although I can't see this improving the forward bookings) but the travelling public face an even longer period when they don't know which way to turn (probably away from BA if they have any sense)
I still think it's a power trip, althogh I agree it's also the last roll of the dice.
If I were negotiating for the company I'd be giving them nothing.
CB
I still think it's a power trip, althogh I agree it's also the last roll of the dice.
If I were negotiating for the company I'd be giving them nothing.
CB
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Clarified
There's still a majority for a strike - only 51% is needed - they are way above that.
BASSA feels they are running the game as they can play this card when they feel the company is not meeting or listening their demands.
There's still a majority for a strike - only 51% is needed - they are way above that.
BASSA feels they are running the game as they can play this card when they feel the company is not meeting or listening their demands.
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7 days notice
Does the notice period need to be 7 full days, or does it include the day that a strike is announced?
For example: if BASSA had announced a strike today then would the earliest strike day be next Thursday or next Friday?
For example: if BASSA had announced a strike today then would the earliest strike day be next Thursday or next Friday?
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Some goodies from today's meeting:
1. Crew members to be reinstated.
2. Transfers from LGW to LHR - nice to see they are focusing on LGW which they sold down the river years ago.
3. New Fleet to be cancelled.
(Top Secret as to when they will release a possible strike date - they want to surprise BA.)
Think of all their demands - BASSA needs to come up with savings equivalent to £140 million if they want crew members back and New Fleet off the table - still they want things to be as they have always been - how on earth are they going to do it?
Keep putting off the strike - it allows BA to bring it further staff and train them to cover a strike.
1. Crew members to be reinstated.
2. Transfers from LGW to LHR - nice to see they are focusing on LGW which they sold down the river years ago.
3. New Fleet to be cancelled.
(Top Secret as to when they will release a possible strike date - they want to surprise BA.)
Think of all their demands - BASSA needs to come up with savings equivalent to £140 million if they want crew members back and New Fleet off the table - still they want things to be as they have always been - how on earth are they going to do it?
Keep putting off the strike - it allows BA to bring it further staff and train them to cover a strike.
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There is NO doubt that BASSA are in for a very rude awakening. They have blown it. The most likely scenario is they don't know what to do next and at last realise that WW is going to encourage a strike and end their fanciful union antics based way back in the past - with no relevance to the future.
Pace is gathering on the Iwo Jima poster too, and they will not like that.
Pace is gathering on the Iwo Jima poster too, and they will not like that.
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I am quite possibly wrong regarding figures and taxation there, and should re-read before posting, and would love to know the exact facts and figures.
My main point is really that there is an air of uncertainty. The crew I have spoken to (and this in no way a majority!) are concerned that there is no clarity with what is on offer, and no reasurance that soon down the line, any changes now will allow for bigger changes.
My concern is that if the crew aren't going to lose money by accepting this new payment, how does it save BA money, and whats the point in it??
My main point is really that there is an air of uncertainty. The crew I have spoken to (and this in no way a majority!) are concerned that there is no clarity with what is on offer, and no reasurance that soon down the line, any changes now will allow for bigger changes.
My concern is that if the crew aren't going to lose money by accepting this new payment, how does it save BA money, and whats the point in it??
Either
1. Cabin crew aren't taking time to read the documents carefully, ask questions to clarify, then discuss the ramifications sensibly.
or 2. They are ignoring company comms, accepting the Bassa line and then being confused at the end result.
No wonder it's such a protracted negotiation.
The fixed monthly payment is to balance out the overall allowances paid for taxable, non meal allowances. It's based on allowances paid in the lucrative 07/08 year, and is an optional method of payment for every individual.
Food allowances will be paid and taxed exactly as they have been (recent tax changes notwithstanding, but that's another tale of Bassa failure.)
Why now are cabin crew seeking to find out the facts? They were always there!
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The Offer
Midman/Sixmilehigh...
I agree, there seems to be a lot of confusion amongst crew about what BA offered.
This is directly lifted from BA's email to crew, 23rd October 2009.
(I have highlighted a couple of points that I don't believe were emphasised by BASSA)
The Package Offer made to Unite on Monday 19 October 2009, in brief
Current Cabin Crew
* No change to terms & conditions for current Cabin Crew
* Protection of current earning potential through offer of fixed monthly travel payment excluding meals, instead of current variable pay (based on last years schedule)
World Wide CSD = £9,676 pa
World Wide Purser = £9,258 pa
World Wide Main Crew = £8,085 pa
Eurofleet CSD = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Purser = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Main Crew = £2,266 pa
* Crew complement changes:
1 Purser off (service covered by working CSD)
Extra Crew member removed from 12 destinations (currently operates 1 over complement)
Eurofleet aligned with Gatwick complements
* Revised World Wide disruption agreement
Put the customer needs first during disruption
Management decision to apply agreement, and Trade Union advised of the use of the agreement
No change to duty day disruption payments to Crew (CSD £260, Purser £230, Main Crew £200)
Review application of disruption agreement on monthly basis with Trade Union
Minimise impact on Crew (get home ASAP and return to roster ASAP)
* Voluntary redundancy available.
1,011 colleagues accepted.
* Part-time working offered to all.
5,076 colleagues registered interest
Anticipate all will be accepted in phases between now and March 2011.
616 colleagues confirmed acceptance of new part time contract to date
518 colleagues registered for new 33% contract
* Cabin Crew transfers between LHR fleets
2,313 colleagues registered interest in transferring. Subject to grade mix, as many as possible will be accepted.
* Promotion opportunities – first since 2006.
444 World Wide Pursers registered to work up as temporary CSD.
Further permanent opportunities available in new year for approximately 120 colleagues.
New Cabin Crew
* Competitive terms and conditions for new entrants (10% above market average).
New share scheme and new travel ticket
* Additional 100% staff bookable concession for colleague and travel partners, based on company performance in 2009/10.
* Company performance share scheme – 2010 – 2013.
Redundancy
* Maintain commitment to avoid compulsory redundancy where possible
Working with the Trade Unions
* Agreement on working constructively with Trade Unions to avoid future conflict
* Agreement on Trade Union structures and facilities enabling a modern relationship.
------ends.
I should also point out that this was BA's initial offer, which BASSA would not discuss or negotiate upon.
I'm sure, if there had been negotiations, some more protections could have been incorporated regarding promotion for current crew (a ligitimate concern IMHO) and movement of routes to NewFleet.
I agree, there seems to be a lot of confusion amongst crew about what BA offered.
This is directly lifted from BA's email to crew, 23rd October 2009.
(I have highlighted a couple of points that I don't believe were emphasised by BASSA)
The Package Offer made to Unite on Monday 19 October 2009, in brief
Current Cabin Crew
* No change to terms & conditions for current Cabin Crew
* Protection of current earning potential through offer of fixed monthly travel payment excluding meals, instead of current variable pay (based on last years schedule)
World Wide CSD = £9,676 pa
World Wide Purser = £9,258 pa
World Wide Main Crew = £8,085 pa
Eurofleet CSD = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Purser = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Main Crew = £2,266 pa
* Crew complement changes:
1 Purser off (service covered by working CSD)
Extra Crew member removed from 12 destinations (currently operates 1 over complement)
Eurofleet aligned with Gatwick complements
* Revised World Wide disruption agreement
Put the customer needs first during disruption
Management decision to apply agreement, and Trade Union advised of the use of the agreement
No change to duty day disruption payments to Crew (CSD £260, Purser £230, Main Crew £200)
Review application of disruption agreement on monthly basis with Trade Union
Minimise impact on Crew (get home ASAP and return to roster ASAP)
* Voluntary redundancy available.
1,011 colleagues accepted.
* Part-time working offered to all.
5,076 colleagues registered interest
Anticipate all will be accepted in phases between now and March 2011.
616 colleagues confirmed acceptance of new part time contract to date
518 colleagues registered for new 33% contract
* Cabin Crew transfers between LHR fleets
2,313 colleagues registered interest in transferring. Subject to grade mix, as many as possible will be accepted.
* Promotion opportunities – first since 2006.
444 World Wide Pursers registered to work up as temporary CSD.
Further permanent opportunities available in new year for approximately 120 colleagues.
New Cabin Crew
* Competitive terms and conditions for new entrants (10% above market average).
New share scheme and new travel ticket
* Additional 100% staff bookable concession for colleague and travel partners, based on company performance in 2009/10.
* Company performance share scheme – 2010 – 2013.
Redundancy
* Maintain commitment to avoid compulsory redundancy where possible
Working with the Trade Unions
* Agreement on working constructively with Trade Unions to avoid future conflict
* Agreement on Trade Union structures and facilities enabling a modern relationship.
------ends.
I should also point out that this was BA's initial offer, which BASSA would not discuss or negotiate upon.
I'm sure, if there had been negotiations, some more protections could have been incorporated regarding promotion for current crew (a ligitimate concern IMHO) and movement of routes to NewFleet.
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Midman, sadly your speculation is probably correct. As a crewmember myself I am frequently having to correct other crews' misunderstanding on what's proposed. Many crew automatically ignore/delete/bin communication from BA as a matter of course (I've been told this openly). They will only read Union communications.
Confusion over the Fixed Monthly Payment is a prime example. The facts are:
It replaces NON MEAL allowances, so is taxed no differently to now.
Meal allowances, paid exactly the same as now will still be paid in addition to the FMP.
There's no direct financial advantage to the company in offering it in itself (the same total amount paid in NON MEAL allowances to the crew community will be paid out in total FMP payments - at '08/09' rates). The Company have clearly stated this in several communications. The reason the company are offering it is solely to reassure crew/counter union claims that New Fleet will leave them worse off financially.
The only reason I know the facts so well, is that unlike many crew, I don't just have a tendency to suspect "spin" in communication from the Company, but from ANY party with a vested interest, including the union.
Therefore I read ALL communications VERY THOROUGHLY, and question any element that is unclear, or open to various interpretations.
The spin/misinformation/inaccuracy score , I'm afraid, very much finds the union the guilty party.
No wonder crew still come out with statements like "I'll be left sitting at home starved of work" (Hardly to BA's financial advantage if you think about it!) and "BA are going to slash my pay".
Confusion over the Fixed Monthly Payment is a prime example. The facts are:
It replaces NON MEAL allowances, so is taxed no differently to now.
Meal allowances, paid exactly the same as now will still be paid in addition to the FMP.
There's no direct financial advantage to the company in offering it in itself (the same total amount paid in NON MEAL allowances to the crew community will be paid out in total FMP payments - at '08/09' rates). The Company have clearly stated this in several communications. The reason the company are offering it is solely to reassure crew/counter union claims that New Fleet will leave them worse off financially.
The only reason I know the facts so well, is that unlike many crew, I don't just have a tendency to suspect "spin" in communication from the Company, but from ANY party with a vested interest, including the union.
Therefore I read ALL communications VERY THOROUGHLY, and question any element that is unclear, or open to various interpretations.
The spin/misinformation/inaccuracy score , I'm afraid, very much finds the union the guilty party.
No wonder crew still come out with statements like "I'll be left sitting at home starved of work" (Hardly to BA's financial advantage if you think about it!) and "BA are going to slash my pay".
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Well played BASSA. WW has you exactly where he wants you. I don't believe for one moment that WW/BA are going to blink - they've been waiting for this for years. Why would they now let the golden opportunity of crushing the militant tendancy slip through their hands? Why risk the potential of more strike threats in 12/18/24 months time? They won't.
For those in denial and those that spin half/non truths - as my tag says - you are about to reap what you sow.
For the realists/PCCC - you are unfortunately about to get caught in the crossfire..... but at least you'll still have a job.
A4
Last edited by A4; 25th Feb 2010 at 15:53.
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Winstonsmith and dave747456
Winstonsmith,
I understand the % figures and how strong the vote was in those terms. I still think when you look at the totals, people available etc, the situation is very tenuous for the union. I would be worried.
dave747436,
thanks for highlighting the offer that has been sitting there for months now.
It's so important to know and understand exactly what it is. I hear a lot of comments about personalities, what if's etc. that just confuses people.
As sixmilehighclub pointed out, focus on the facts and avoid confusing people.
Your post helps with that.
C
(My thoughts, they do not represent my employer or any other party).
I understand the % figures and how strong the vote was in those terms. I still think when you look at the totals, people available etc, the situation is very tenuous for the union. I would be worried.
dave747436,
thanks for highlighting the offer that has been sitting there for months now.
It's so important to know and understand exactly what it is. I hear a lot of comments about personalities, what if's etc. that just confuses people.
As sixmilehighclub pointed out, focus on the facts and avoid confusing people.
Your post helps with that.
C
(My thoughts, they do not represent my employer or any other party).
Last edited by Clarified; 3rd Mar 2010 at 20:06. Reason: typo.
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Newsflash now up about the meeting and what was discussed is on the BASSA website. Don't know if I can post it here so will rather not!
Basically it said they are not announcing strike dates yet as the talks are extremely slow but there has been movement (they didn't say what that was as it is confidential apparently) It says they would rather continue with the talks to see what comes out of it than ''press the button just yet.'' Fair enough.
Winstonsmith - is that true that it was said New Fleet is to be removed? If so great, but like someone mentioned now Unite has to find £140m of savings from us along with new/future crew. I think to minimise what savings have to be made we have to keep the crew complement reduction they cannot put crew back on (well maybe make a few tweaks to the matrix etc here and there) otherwise we will have to give up lots more. This is what alot of crew do not understand.
We will just have to wait and see. I hope that the negotiations continue postively and we can get a deal very very soon (am hopefully) so that a strike does not come about. I don't want to strike, but whilst I am happy to come to work, I would obviously rather not cross a picket line if I can!! Also, if a deal is reached soon that is reasonable we all know where we are and continue doing our job that we enjoy rather than all this that has been getting worse for the last 12 months now!
Basically it said they are not announcing strike dates yet as the talks are extremely slow but there has been movement (they didn't say what that was as it is confidential apparently) It says they would rather continue with the talks to see what comes out of it than ''press the button just yet.'' Fair enough.
Winstonsmith - is that true that it was said New Fleet is to be removed? If so great, but like someone mentioned now Unite has to find £140m of savings from us along with new/future crew. I think to minimise what savings have to be made we have to keep the crew complement reduction they cannot put crew back on (well maybe make a few tweaks to the matrix etc here and there) otherwise we will have to give up lots more. This is what alot of crew do not understand.
We will just have to wait and see. I hope that the negotiations continue postively and we can get a deal very very soon (am hopefully) so that a strike does not come about. I don't want to strike, but whilst I am happy to come to work, I would obviously rather not cross a picket line if I can!! Also, if a deal is reached soon that is reasonable we all know where we are and continue doing our job that we enjoy rather than all this that has been getting worse for the last 12 months now!
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wish list
winston smith
``Some goodies from today's meeting:
1. Crew members to be reinstated.
2. Transfers from LGW to LHR - nice to see they are focusing on LGW which they sold down the river years ago.
3. New Fleet to be cancelled.``
I presume this is the BASSA wish list and not what they have `negotiated` so far
If it is a wish list or what the members present at the meeting want (what about those that couldn`t make it?) then it just hastens BASSA`s demise.
The delay in naming strike dates under the guise of `more `negotiations` will not have gone down well with WW as forward bookings take a hit under this uncertainty. If he now decides to offer 90 day SOSR on a take it or leave it basis then he will be the villain but all along BASSA/UNITE have been the villains (with regard to not negotiating on behalf of their members. BASSA i guess are hoping WW will do just that and they can escape under the guise that they did their best but WW is the bully that pushed this through.
I am trying to think of any other industry outside of a transport industry whereby the unions would gain through not naming strike dates.
Thoughts too please whether BA welcome the delay (outside of trying/saying to the public that they hope to avoid a strike) in naming the dates or it is another mosquioto buzzing around their heads.
``Some goodies from today's meeting:
1. Crew members to be reinstated.
2. Transfers from LGW to LHR - nice to see they are focusing on LGW which they sold down the river years ago.
3. New Fleet to be cancelled.``
I presume this is the BASSA wish list and not what they have `negotiated` so far
If it is a wish list or what the members present at the meeting want (what about those that couldn`t make it?) then it just hastens BASSA`s demise.
The delay in naming strike dates under the guise of `more `negotiations` will not have gone down well with WW as forward bookings take a hit under this uncertainty. If he now decides to offer 90 day SOSR on a take it or leave it basis then he will be the villain but all along BASSA/UNITE have been the villains (with regard to not negotiating on behalf of their members. BASSA i guess are hoping WW will do just that and they can escape under the guise that they did their best but WW is the bully that pushed this through.
I am trying to think of any other industry outside of a transport industry whereby the unions would gain through not naming strike dates.
Thoughts too please whether BA welcome the delay (outside of trying/saying to the public that they hope to avoid a strike) in naming the dates or it is another mosquioto buzzing around their heads.
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Effect of no strike dates
Hi Wascrew,
From a customer's perspective this just makes things worse. I've got a flight next Friday, which I'm now fairly sure is safe; but if customers can only be sure that there won't be a strike for the next 7 days then that's awful.
Anyone holding off purchasing tickets until the strike dates were announced will now book with another carrier; anyone with tickets already purchased has a nervous wait until they're a week short of their trip.
I can understand that this appears to strengthen the negotiating hand for BASSA, but I think BA would also rather the strike dates were announced so they can get on with breaking it. If WW really does want to sort out BSSA then it wouldn't surprise me if talks break down quite quickly...
From a customer's perspective this just makes things worse. I've got a flight next Friday, which I'm now fairly sure is safe; but if customers can only be sure that there won't be a strike for the next 7 days then that's awful.
Anyone holding off purchasing tickets until the strike dates were announced will now book with another carrier; anyone with tickets already purchased has a nervous wait until they're a week short of their trip.
I can understand that this appears to strengthen the negotiating hand for BASSA, but I think BA would also rather the strike dates were announced so they can get on with breaking it. If WW really does want to sort out BSSA then it wouldn't surprise me if talks break down quite quickly...
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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It says they would rather continue with the talks to see what comes out of it than ''press the button just yet.''
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Bassa are obviously less sure of themselves behind the bluster and rhetoric, and BA must be seeing this doubt grow each day, whilst BA train more and more volunteers to defeat what is looking like a cowed and cornered union.
As for watersidewnker, another disappointing day. I'm starting to feel sorry for him and his ilk.*
* not really