British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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While I am quite happy to work with volunteers, as I have said before on this forum, I see no reason for the jubilation that continues or the wish for the strike to proceed which I see on these pages. I will comment no further as this thread goes round and round in circles, rather like the negotiations themselves. I suspect that some of those on this forum, who do not intend to strike, feel likewise as they have also expressed reservations over the anti-crew stance here on what is supposed to be a discussion forum for cabin crew.
The thread has got quite boring and like you, I wonder that people who have no connection to our great and good company have so much time on their hands to spend going around in circles. I can understand that frequent SLF want to say their piece but why ex-SLF are similarly inspired is beyond comprehension.
What are you all going to do when this thread is closed?
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wiggy
24-06 was right. May I suggest you go out for a drink down-route and remind yourself that it is BASSA's reps that you dislike and that actually, most of your colleagues aren't so bad. After all there were 4000+ who did NOT vote for a strike.
Clearly some of the remarks on the BASSA forum have hurt your sensitive feelings but "sticks and stones,etc"; one of the disadvantages of being at the pointy end is that you are expected to be above all that pettiness. I would like to apologise on behalf of all of my colleagues for the remarks from the FEW, but as this is a public forum, can I also remind you that our customers do not like to think that the flight and cabin crew can't get on and you are giving that message.
iomega
Are you sure it is acceptable to reproduce all of that ess message (including the e-mail address) on a public forum. I would suggest it needs editing!
24-06 was right. May I suggest you go out for a drink down-route and remind yourself that it is BASSA's reps that you dislike and that actually, most of your colleagues aren't so bad. After all there were 4000+ who did NOT vote for a strike.
Clearly some of the remarks on the BASSA forum have hurt your sensitive feelings but "sticks and stones,etc"; one of the disadvantages of being at the pointy end is that you are expected to be above all that pettiness. I would like to apologise on behalf of all of my colleagues for the remarks from the FEW, but as this is a public forum, can I also remind you that our customers do not like to think that the flight and cabin crew can't get on and you are giving that message.
iomega
Are you sure it is acceptable to reproduce all of that ess message (including the e-mail address) on a public forum. I would suggest it needs editing!
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Anyone who genuinely cares a damn for the future of BA should be praying for an immediate and peaceful resolution.
They have demonstrated quite clearly in the last few months why they are unsuited to, and incapable of, any reasonable dialogue over the future of BA. If BA is to have a long term future it must be without the dinosaur that is BASSA threatening further industrial action whenever they feel like it. BASSA have shown themselves quite incapable of reasonable negotiation - not even being able to sit in the same rooms as other negotiators, how petulant and childish can one be - so a secure future for BA necessitates their being replaced by some organisation more reasonable and mature.
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Will strike dates be announced today??
I'm hearing of a schism both within UNITE and between UNITE and BASSA. Potentially it may be that no strike dates will be announced today.
There is quite alot of background to this which has already been hinted at, apparently there are less than a handful of people who actually want a strike within the ranks, the potential problem is how this is "sold" to BASSA.
An analyst for the union is suggesting that support for a strike has decreased rapidly since November, and that they must consider all those whom abstained or voted "no" will report for duty, on top of this and witnessed in other industries they must take into account the "yes" voters who will wane and go to work on strike days thus undermining any strike action.
Furthermore, it may be more beneficial for UNITE/BASSA to keep BA waiting, since this increases uncertainty for BA and it passengers, thus squeezing cash flow.
A deal maybe in the offing.
There is quite alot of background to this which has already been hinted at, apparently there are less than a handful of people who actually want a strike within the ranks, the potential problem is how this is "sold" to BASSA.
An analyst for the union is suggesting that support for a strike has decreased rapidly since November, and that they must consider all those whom abstained or voted "no" will report for duty, on top of this and witnessed in other industries they must take into account the "yes" voters who will wane and go to work on strike days thus undermining any strike action.
Furthermore, it may be more beneficial for UNITE/BASSA to keep BA waiting, since this increases uncertainty for BA and it passengers, thus squeezing cash flow.
A deal maybe in the offing.
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As has been pointed out on this forum, BASSA is the sum of its membership and, even if BASSA is in someway bought to its knees, out of the ashes will rise a new union with the same membership, likely some of the same reps and definately the same agenda - to protect the terms and conditions of BA CC. Thats what unions do!
I am starting to feel confident that a deal is more than in the offing, I think it may be closer than that!!
I am starting to feel confident that a deal is more than in the offing, I think it may be closer than that!!
Ottergirl,
Morning....if my point was badly made my apologies. I'm well aware that mainly my gripe is with BASSA reps, I've certainly enjoyed the company of cabin crew down route and in the air.
I don't want to go around in circles on this so my parting shot is: I ( and many others ) are still wondering how such a generally pleasant bunch of, in the main, intelligent people can let their elected reps continue to post and promulgate the falsehoods that they do? As if to underline the point we now seem to have another example with the seemingly fabricated Lufthansa pilots' statement that is being carried on the BASSA website.
If there's an airline left at the end of this I look forward to buying you (and 24-06) a drink sometime
Morning....if my point was badly made my apologies. I'm well aware that mainly my gripe is with BASSA reps, I've certainly enjoyed the company of cabin crew down route and in the air.
I don't want to go around in circles on this so my parting shot is: I ( and many others ) are still wondering how such a generally pleasant bunch of, in the main, intelligent people can let their elected reps continue to post and promulgate the falsehoods that they do? As if to underline the point we now seem to have another example with the seemingly fabricated Lufthansa pilots' statement that is being carried on the BASSA website.
If there's an airline left at the end of this I look forward to buying you (and 24-06) a drink sometime
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..and when BASSA members see the deal, there will be a collective WTF! I betcha it's a flat hourly rate, across the fleets and a raft of progressive measures to take BA into competition. 'Take it, or we take you (BASSA - not the misled members!!!!) down' talk from BA.
Nurj
Nurj
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I ( and many others ) are still wondering how such a generally pleasant bunch of, in the main, intelligent people can let their elected reps continue to post and promulgate the falsehoods that they do?
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With regard to the latest BASSA release re Lufty pilots:
The BA BALPA chairman has contacted the LH VC union boss, and it is confirmed this is a piece of fiction from BASSA.
The BALPA Gen Sec is contacting Tony Woodley as we speak.
The list of libelous statements eminating from BASSA grows daily.
The BA BALPA chairman has contacted the LH VC union boss, and it is confirmed this is a piece of fiction from BASSA.
The BALPA Gen Sec is contacting Tony Woodley as we speak.
The list of libelous statements eminating from BASSA grows daily.
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No Strike Announcement Today
Rumours at the moment suggest that BASSA/Unite do not believe that a strike will work due to crew voting "to send a message" but not actually being prepared to risk the consequences of a strike. Unite are therefore trying to hold the threat of a strike over BA's head for as long as possible in a desperate rearguard action. It has also been suggested that Unite leadership are coming under pressure from the Labour Party to avoid more bad headlines for Gordon Brown in the run up to the general election. Perhaps events are spinning away from BASSA faster than they can control.
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Ottergirl
Given that the the High Court acknlowledged that Cabin Crew at BA cost twice that of the airlines competitors, and have very restrictive working practices (such as the short-haul turn-around time, or long-haul disruption agreement) and have a penchant for strike ballots............what sort of deal do you think could possibly be struck while keeping the same Cabin Crew employed?
Given that the the High Court acknlowledged that Cabin Crew at BA cost twice that of the airlines competitors, and have very restrictive working practices (such as the short-haul turn-around time, or long-haul disruption agreement) and have a penchant for strike ballots............what sort of deal do you think could possibly be struck while keeping the same Cabin Crew employed?
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Perhaps events are spinning away from BASSA faster than they can control
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This BASSA statement is completely untrue and the Lufthansa Pilots Union (VC) have no knowledge of this individual and deny having made any such statement.
"VC have never heard of "Jorge Huereds".
If this person exists, he´s not one of ours.
(Sounds Spanish?)
And there are no VC-statements like this."
"VC have never heard of "Jorge Huereds".
If this person exists, he´s not one of ours.
(Sounds Spanish?)
And there are no VC-statements like this."
- Vereinigte Cockpit speaker's name is Jörg Handwerg (lost in translation?)
- Not everything on the Reuters feed is published online
Juan, you certainly can tell us the source of your supposed VC denial?
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..and when BASSA members see the deal, there will be a collective WTF! I betcha it's a flat hourly rate, across the fleets and a raft of progressive measures to take BA into competition. 'Take it, or we take you (BASSA - not the misled members!!!!) down' talk from BA.
I may yet be proven wrong but thats the vibe I'm getting from 23 years in IFCE.
This one definately needs a disclaimer that these are all my own thoughts and in no way that of my employer.
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Jaun Tugoh, you said..
Unite are therefore trying to hold the threat of a strike over BA's head for as long as possible in a desperate rearguard action.
So I think options are:
To ask the membership to vote again for a strike because they ran out of time, (no action taken by 15th March).
Ask BA to extend the notice period for a strike beyond the 15th March. (BA's decision not the union).
Announce strike dates before the 15th March and take action. Crew participating withdraw labour and break contracts, contingency is activated.
Call it off and agree a resolution.
Anyone got a crystal ball?
Please correct me if I am wrong!
(My views to previous post, not my company's view or anyone other party).
Last edited by Clarified; 25th Feb 2010 at 09:30.
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Ottergirl
There'll be a New-fleet for sure
the talks at present are focusing on how to protect existing crew so some kind of matrix for the transferral of flights
a share option that no-one expects to pay out
), ask yourself why did BASSA not tell you this back in March 2009? Clarified by my own calculations I think BASSA will need to give notice of the first strike by the 14th/15th March
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Andyismyname
Answered most of that above I think. The above quote is a bit different though because of pending EU legislation around meal-breaks. We have been trialling different ways at LGW of incorporating a dedicated meal break into the Eurofleet day, it needs to be 20 minutes free of any sort of duty and is proving a headache within our working practice. More work will be forthcoming I think but applies to all airlines so it may be they need to come more into line with us! The 2hour 30 turnaround that is being discussed on here includes 30 minutes to disembark the passengers from the aircraft, pay in the bar and walk back to CRC and 1 hour 15 pre-flight duties such as briefing, passing through security,walking to the a/c, boarding the passengers. That leaves a 45 minute meal-break, that doesn't sound so excessive does it? Fixed-links, where we stay on the a/c like the Flight crew, have been removed from the proposals at presents due to a problem with T5 security's regulations.
the short-haul turn-around time
Last edited by ottergirl; 25th Feb 2010 at 09:48.
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Well said, 24-06. In my opinion, this gung-ho attitude to the strike going ahead in the hope of seeing the LT give the CC some kind of 'payback' is about as responsible as voting for a strike in the first place. Anyone who genuinely cares a damn for the future of BA should be praying for an immediate and peaceful resolution.
If that happens (the i & p r) then next year of the year after we will doubtless see more damaging nonsense from BASSA.
Im praying for the removal of the rabble rousers who seem to hate BA so much.
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Ottergirl
My intension was never to scare anyone off and i'm sorry if I did, but to try and understand some of the more bizaar working practices that still exist in BA.
my addition in bold.
Surely CC ability to crew various types is not why crews are changed but because the pilots and aircraft cannot sit around for 2 1/2 hours at LHR waiting for CC to have their lunch break. If CC are changed does this not lead to a longer turnaround time due to all checks needing to be redone?
It seems to me that CC pay has evolved in a very similar way over the last 30 years to that of MPs, where allowances have become part of the general remuneration. So even when the reason for an allowance no longer exists it has been kept for various reasons. BA I suspect like to keep basic pay low for tax, NI , pension and holiday purposes. BASSA like the allowances system due to the high payments at certain destinations which they regularly fly to give the senior crew a much high wage than they would get if there was a higher basic pay and more equitable split of allowances.
Regards
What we do is change Flight crew because, in this case, I fly (in) Airbus and Boeings but they do not!
Sorry its taken so long for a real cabin crew member to answer your question, you seem to have scared most of them off
Sorry its taken so long for a real cabin crew member to answer your question, you seem to have scared most of them off
Surely CC ability to crew various types is not why crews are changed but because the pilots and aircraft cannot sit around for 2 1/2 hours at LHR waiting for CC to have their lunch break. If CC are changed does this not lead to a longer turnaround time due to all checks needing to be redone?
It seems to me that CC pay has evolved in a very similar way over the last 30 years to that of MPs, where allowances have become part of the general remuneration. So even when the reason for an allowance no longer exists it has been kept for various reasons. BA I suspect like to keep basic pay low for tax, NI , pension and holiday purposes. BASSA like the allowances system due to the high payments at certain destinations which they regularly fly to give the senior crew a much high wage than they would get if there was a higher basic pay and more equitable split of allowances.
Regards
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Ottergirl
The thread has got quite boring and like you, I wonder that people who have no connection to our great and good company have so much time on their hands to spend going around in circles. I can understand that frequent SLF want to say their piece but why ex-SLF are similarly inspired is beyond comprehension.
What are you all going to do when this thread is closed?
What are you all going to do when this thread is closed?
, but I just can't stop myself. 
I can honestly say I have never, ever watched a soap opera all the way through and I'm old enough to remember when Coronation Street was new. But the BA Cabin Crew Industrial Action thread here on PPRuNe is absolutely riveting stuff and miles better than a soap opera for an old 'plane spotter'/flight deck groupie/SLF like me. And I'm not, I don't think, 'intruding on your grief'.First, I have read all of the previous incarnation of this thread and all of this one - bit by bit, obviously - and although I have few other sources of information, I think it is possible to get a fairly good idea of 'Big Picture' in this matter. Naturally some of your (Cabin Crew, not necessarily either side in the dispute) posts are too technical to understand perfectly, but for the most part I can see where an opinion fits. The opinions, one way and another, of people like yourself and other notables - I shan't name names, but I think you know who I mean? - are clearly argued, interesting and even, sometimes, quite amusing. Many others are trite, rude and entirely without foundation.
In the months and months I have been watching here, my sense of amazement has been raised to utter astonishment. That a group of ostensibly responsible, intelligent people, can have raised the expectations of their members by what I can only describe as 'rabble rousing', is simply staggering. And utterly mesmerising.
At each turn, I wait expectantly for BASSA/Unite supporters to come here and, using the same sort of reasoned, documented arguments that the contrary group use, make their case; but I wait in vain. Then I read, open mouthed, at some of the complete nonsense they write and frankly underhand stunts they pull. The Facebook fiasco, the porn link, the thinly veiled sinister threats and now the complete bo11ocks proporting to come from the German BALPA equivalent.
I'm sorry I am interested Ottergirl, but it is just too addictive.
Having said that, I genuinely hope that matters will be resolved reasonably, fairly and without antagonism and that you all remain working for a fine airline.Roger.