British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by AlpineSkier

I think you are in a much easier position. You are in YOUR normal situation, with crew back-up and probably a dozen "volunteering" pax as well and little worry about the law condemning you for using too much force on normally just one person.

It's not that easy matey. I've been involved in a very serious medical incident that involved the diversion of my LGW-KIN flight to BDA.

While myself and a few of my colleagues were trying to deal with the incident, we had other passengers crowding around us, rubber necking, asking us for things, demanding a normal service. We can't just ALL chip in when an incident happens, we have to do what we can with minimal man power because sadly, even the ignorant and inconsiderate can buy plane tickets these days.

A teacher can leave the classroom if they're being threatened.

And regarding the excessive force when dealing with one person, you can bet that we'll be appearing in court if we're deemed to have used excessive force in a restraint situation. Such is the world we live in - the guilty are often the ones who are protected most by law.

[Fargoo]

Regardless, they're not volunteers. That's the only point I was trying to make. CABIN CREW are true volunteers when they work on the ground during disruption. They get no pay and they get no expenses. They are, as far as I'm aware, the ONLY employee group who don't enjoy any benefit of helping the company out in times like that.

Totally inaccurate assumption i'm afraid.

[Re-Heat]

But I don't need nor want sympathy for that - I signed up for it. What I do want - and hope for - is that the public sees that there's a lot more to this job than meets the eye.

Ask the passengers of the BA038 if we're overpaid. And ask the family of the man whose life was saved by a BA crew in New York recently if we're overpaid.

Fair comment, but (a) BA weren't after your salary - they were after a constructive solution to long-term efficiency and costs that enable present crew to remain in the same financial position, and (b) you have to be careful using the safety argument as you can get to a point where any salary figure is justified, yet the reality is that there is a market rate, and many people (ambulance staff and the like) who are paid less for what is in many ways more responsibility.

I don't agree with the "break the crew" and "chop the costs to easyJet levels tomorrow" brigade, but I do call you out on pursuing that line of reasoning to justify your position.

If this episode results in a new, consultative, collaborative and educated new union, all for the better. The process to arrive at that doesn't need to destroy present employees' positions.

Let's be clear - the only group that the monthly travel payment (properly negotiated) could or should impact is that who gamed the system to do constant NRT / SIN sectors, rather than the mix of all routes. Coupled with the employment at Unite of the scheduling individual who allegedly permitted these fiddles - explain succinctly to me how that has the best interests of the members at heart?

Stand as a rep and clear out the current lot if you are want real representation...

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Re-Heat

yet the reality is that there is a market rate, and many people (ambulance staff and the like) who are paid less for what is in many ways more responsibility.

You've obviously never seen my payslip.

[tomkins]

52049er

Just out of interest.An average FO on long haul would have been flying for how many years?Surely by this stage his trainning debts would be well below £50000.
Just interested

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by AlpineSkier

As for the assault, I have never heard of [/b]anybody [/b]even being interviewed for using "unreasonable force" as the charge of "endangering an aircraft" is viewed so much more seriously, so I think your point there does not reflect reality.

Perhaps because we manage to keep control of these situations without using unreasonable force?

Yeah, we're almost given carte blanche when dealing with these situations, but trying to hurt people isn't in the nature of most cabin crew.

I suspect the one time we have to really use force to restrain someone - keeping in mind that when the adrenellin is running it takes a lot to hurt someone - we'll be facing some serious questions from people a little more powerful than our own line managers .

[Re-Heat]

You've obviously never seen my payslip.

I don't need to; my point was rather different. Re-read my post - BA are not trying to chop your pay to easyJet levels; the argument about safety and responsibility is not relevant to the dispute and follows dangerous reasoning under which one could justify any figure - even £1m pa +.

What is so problematic about changing efficiency so that a single crew (flight and cabin) is required for - say - the government charters, instead of the 1 x flight crew and 3 x cabin crew - IF NOBODY LOSES THEIR JOB AS A RESULT (which they haven't so far anyway). What is problematic about ensuring that turnaround times designed for central area meals when aircraft had no galley to speak of are eliminated, allowing crew to go home earlier? Why is it an issue to ask an employee group to look outside of fortress Heathrow to see that competitors deliver the same service with the same responsibility more efficiently?

You have to keep BA going if you are to get anything out of NAPS, if you are a member of that fund!

[Snas]

Tomkins - If I say they may see the job as a bit more of a jolly, then I guess we are not far apart.

I wont contest your other points, generally agree with you old bean.

My point was really more along the lines of -cabin crew dont need this attention- Eddie's points regarding medical emergencies and the like (whilst not really part of this IA discussion in my view) ARE the sort of attention that CC (of all companies) benefit from, and dont often get.

All are guilty of this of course. I dont recall seeing Unite press releases about life saving crew other than during IA and whilst it may have been slightly tounge in cheek Eddie's advert regarding babies and hearts etc probably isnt such a daft idea. I'm sick of seeing airline cabins that I never get to fly in..!

If I risk straying into dangerous off topic areas: - I would suggest that consistency of service is BA’s issue. If I fly with certain carriers I know the service will be bad, others I know will be good. BA tends to be a lucky dip in my experience.

Edit to add: - I'm off to do some training now, interesting discussion today, thanks all.

[Emm4]

Can you really trust a trade union?

Willy Walsh is between a rock and a hard face- unrelenting commercial realities on one side, and a tough trade union on the other. Irrespective of the issues behind the dispute, the question is – can UNITE afford to lose this contest? The answer would appear to be “No” simply because of its much more significant battle ahead with the government who must deal with the bloated and overcompensated civil service. To show any weakness now would undermine UNITE’s position when it has to negotiate on behalf of a much larger number of its civil service members compared to the number employed by BA.

BA is a great airline and a national asset but that does not make it immune to being a sacrifice for a perceived greater cause. Anyone who thinks that a trade union would not sacrifice a company (and its entire staff) is forgetting Eastern Airlines.

[Fargoo]

To Eddy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargoo
Totally inaccurate assumption i'm afraid.
Please expand...

There are many volunteers who are exactly that, a lot of Engineering staff have given up their time again and again when disruption happens.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Fargoo

There are many volunteers who are exactly that, a lot of Engineering staff have given up their time again and again when disruption happens.

Thanks mate, but I'd always been lead to believe that loaders, engineers etc were paid their standard rate (perhaps that would be equal to time and a half because this would be seen as overtime) when coming in on days off. Infact, I know that to be the case with loaders; certainly during the disruption a few months back with the snow.

[Fargoo]

Nope unfortunately, the Loaders and us are worlds apart when it comes to things like that. No money in the Engineering pot apparently.

Begs the question - why do people do it?

Engineers covering for the baggage handlers were paid overtime rates last year but I'm led to believe that came from a different budget.

Anyway, back on topic

[F14]

News : UK passengers can avoid BA?s strike by flying Ryanair


Looks like FR are doing their best to help out the BA pax

[TruBlu123]

Motivating Staff

A perennial issue within BA and especially in respect to CC. During my long service with the company literally millions of pounds have been spent in trying to engage with staff. Not all of the money was ill spent however, CC always seemed to be out of step with the rest of the community. Why ? Many theories have been advanced. Some constructive others less so. Communication with an itinerant workforce is more challenging. A workforce more inclined to listen to its TU rather than the company also is a problem (not significant with ground staff). A disengagement by CC from the commercial environment is a factor. A minority are probably not concerned about the airline and its competitive challenges here in the UK and elsewhere. The high proportion of part-timers who make up the workforce and who are more concerned about personal lifestyle rather than a commitment to the company. This list is not by any means exhaustive.

[Chickenlickin]

Looks like strike going ahead

British Airways strike going ahead despite peace talks | Business | guardian.co.uk

[cessnapete]

Eddy

Good to have a reasoned ''chat''. I wish you good luck in this avoidable sorry affair.

[cessnapete]

Mary

On trips operated during this IA the Flight Crew and Cabin Crew will be rostered together for the whole trip. Just as it should be in better times!

[M.Mouse]

But when push comes to shove, BA's crews have shown time and time again that when the digested airline meals hit the fan, they more than step up to the plate.

I have refrained from commenting on your valiant attempts to talk up the merits of BA CC but it is only possible to read so much.

I have no intention of washing BA dirty linen in public nor diverting this thread from its subject but I could personally talk about one enroute diversion and one turnback both, unquestionably, caused by cabin crew incompetence. The fall out from one is still being felt in Cranebank.

I know of many excellent CC within BA, equally I know of many who should have been sacked years ago. The result, which shows in surveys time and time again, is the inconsistency of BA inflight service. It is inviting ridicule and it is unbelievably arrogant to claim that BA CC are better than any other airline in the UK

You state stated earlier that Virgin CC allowances are paid in cash. I fail to see what that has to do with the comparison of the BA CC costs and other airlines costs. Visit the CAA website where the comparitive costs of all airline personnel are plain for all to see. BA's actual costs per CC member are roughly double that of our nearest competitor.

BASSA has progressively sold out the regional crew and the LGW crew to sustain the unsustainable. That is the archaic and expensive agreements at LHR for CC, especially those of Worldwide Crew.

Last June (bear in mind these negotiations have been continuing for over 12 months and June was the deadline for agreements to be concluded) on the table from BA was:

• New crewing Levels
• New disruption agreement
• Share scheme
• NO NEW FLEET

That was it! If you don't believe me go back through your company e-mails and read for yourself. It speaks volumes that the crewing levels and disruption agreement could account for the amount of money WW wished to save from the CC budget!

BASSA, in its true style, did what it had always done and that was refuse the offer predicting that BA's usually weak management would cave in as they have done for so many years. They have backed themselves and the CC into a corner from which there is no escape. They realise it and so does WW.

The negotiations have been quite ridiculous at times with the two sets of CC reps (CC89 and BASSA now Amicus and TGWU merged under Unite, if I have the restructuring correct) refusing to even sit in the same room let alone agree a unified position. It may interest outsiders to learn that CC89 was formed by a large group of CC previously completely disenchanted with BASSA and its style of representation. Union mergers mean they are now under the same umbrella but the animosity between the two groups is still there. The new PCCC has arisen for much the same reasons as CC89 was formed but is too new to be of much use at the moment.

Both CC ballots were accompanied by poor and inaccurate rhetoric urging 'a strong yes vote to force WW back to the table' for example. No mention of 'if you vote yes you may have to go on strike'. No mention of the seriousness of that decision. Ask 10 CC members what the strike is about and you will get 12 different answers. Most are completely unaware of what has been previously offered and rejected by BASSA preferring to blindly believe in the BASSA missives which are, at best, less than truthful.

I have several close friends who are CC and to say they are distressed, worried and confused is the understatement of the year. The CC have been badly led, badly advised and are about to suffer changes to their working lives several times worse than could have been agreed by sensible and enlightened representation.

WW is going to finish this and, effectively, finish BASSA as a union. CC should never have been led to this position. Anybody actually heeding the strike call will live to rue the day.

[birdspeed]

For goodness sake, will you all please stop this silly squabbling? My husband is one of the famed volunteers & he enjoyed the chance to catch up on Avmed as BA pilots are no longer given any med training (a big mistake IMHO). He was taught how to use the defib in about an hour, it was hardly rocket science.

I have great respect for BA CC, they are a highly professional group of people and I speak as one with many years of experience as one of their number. However, during my illustrious and varied flying career I was never under the illusion that my job was of any particular significance to the continuation of humanity.
Emergencies on board should be dealt with in accordance with the training given, which is what its for. Horses for courses and those that can, do.
Would I rather have been an ambulance paramedic or a stewie on the 001? Give me a few moments to think about that one.....

What I'm trying to say is that I performed my job to the best of my ability, with great regard for the passengers and my colleagues but always in the knowledge that in a matter of a few weeks, I could be replaced. When the babies arrived I realized that combining motherhood with flying wasn't for me and so I quietly withdrew and got on with my new, non-BA existence (it IS possible).

I spent my late teenage and university years helping out in the family business, a restaurant in central London, where starting at 10am and, at times of staff shortages and with the exception of a 3-hour late afternoon break, finishing at 2am was not unknown. Long, punishing days, particularly in mid summer. Now THAT was hard work, especially doing it for several days in succession. No service routine to adhere to as on an aircraft, just a constant stream of demanding customers and no Hilton or Sheraton waiting for me at the end of it, just more of the same the following day.

When I became CC, I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven by comparison, even with all the eary starts and double Shuttles of S/H. L/H was even more of a doddle and the time changes were not a problem for me providing I allowed myself decent rest.

I'm not having a pop at anyone, but really, there are many harder, more demanding occupations out there. No one is irreplaceable and experience from other areas of customer service life is equally valuable on board an aircraft.
Just ask the many nurses who gave up the drudgery of NHS life to join CC. Would they rather be on the Saturday shift in A&E at the Charing X or on a 9-day BKK-SYD?

[M.Mouse]

The pay cuts were in BASSA's last counter proposal presented to BA. It included pay cuts (to be reinstated at some later date, I forget the exact details) to enable the restoration of the CSD position to a supervisory position rather than the CSD having to actually have to take part in the service routines.

A little bit rich for LGW CC where a pay cut would have had a disproportionate, in fact unacceptable, effect on the BASSA negotiated pay levels at LGW. Made more of a joke because it was to support the cost of a sustaining a non-working CSD role at LHR (LGW have a working Cabin Manager, no CSD)!