British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Some crew don't mind doing B2Bs - they're good money, they get accommodation at LHR and they do six days work at once - instead of doing two nightstop trips separately.
Who's paying for what?
Who's paying for what?
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It is quite a traumatic experience having to resuscitate a dead stranger on a galley floor and not the time to be making a judgement call on the authenticity of a volunteer.
I've made it abundantly clear that this was all based on the veracity of the original story. I was not the one who claimed a cardiac surgeon responded. So perhaps you could direct your comments about suspect volunteers at the original poster, since they are entirely valid.
It is quite a traumatic experience having to resuscitate a dead stranger on a galley floor and not the time to be making a judgement call on the authenticity of a volunteer.
I've made it abundantly clear that this was all based on the veracity of the original story. I was not the one who claimed a cardiac surgeon responded. So perhaps you could direct your comments about suspect volunteers at the original poster, since they are entirely valid.
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Ottergirl I don't carry my degree around with me and I doubt if many Doctors do either so I would agree with you on not always knowing about qualifications.
Does the BA PA not ask for a Doctor of Medicine, nurse, midwife or paramedic?
I know from experience that sometimes any well meaning vet or dentist will pitch up and they can help in a lot of ways for instance they will be able to get intravenous access if you carry the equiptment. However there is no point them doing this if CC blinded by SOP's will not then let them give the right drugs
You make reference to Medlink a service that I have used on occasion in my previous airline and they are invaluable to the CC and even some medical personnel at times.
Medlink can also check the credentials, even if they just have a name on the assisting volunteer, in a matter of minutes. That should provide reassurance to the SCCM that the person is appropriatly qualified to take over the situation.
I'm not knocking what the CC did here but I do feel if we PA for a profesional then if they agree to give their expertise then we should accept it in good faith.
Incidentally just to let you know any professional that volunteers their help on a plane is outside their comfort zone and thinks very carefully. For instance I put in intravenous cannula's on the ground and give intravenous drugs without a second thourght in the hospital enviroment.
On a plane the room moves without warning when I try to do this and if the casualty has a reaction to a drug I don't have the luxury of the back up I do in an ED so I consider my actions very carefully. Not all medical personnel are "have a go heroes". They just want to help the best way they can. As a nurse my code of practice stipiulates limits of competence etc and I'm sure Doctors have the same. We do not ignore those as we could loose our right to practice.
IMHO CC training (whatever company) needs to take the emphasis on CC being in control because we are not. We are not qualified to be. We are only first responders with very limited training and when somebody more qualified gives the value of their training and experience we should be taught to accept it.
Does the BA PA not ask for a Doctor of Medicine, nurse, midwife or paramedic?
I know from experience that sometimes any well meaning vet or dentist will pitch up and they can help in a lot of ways for instance they will be able to get intravenous access if you carry the equiptment. However there is no point them doing this if CC blinded by SOP's will not then let them give the right drugs
You make reference to Medlink a service that I have used on occasion in my previous airline and they are invaluable to the CC and even some medical personnel at times.
Medlink can also check the credentials, even if they just have a name on the assisting volunteer, in a matter of minutes. That should provide reassurance to the SCCM that the person is appropriatly qualified to take over the situation.
I'm not knocking what the CC did here but I do feel if we PA for a profesional then if they agree to give their expertise then we should accept it in good faith.
Incidentally just to let you know any professional that volunteers their help on a plane is outside their comfort zone and thinks very carefully. For instance I put in intravenous cannula's on the ground and give intravenous drugs without a second thourght in the hospital enviroment.
On a plane the room moves without warning when I try to do this and if the casualty has a reaction to a drug I don't have the luxury of the back up I do in an ED so I consider my actions very carefully. Not all medical personnel are "have a go heroes". They just want to help the best way they can. As a nurse my code of practice stipiulates limits of competence etc and I'm sure Doctors have the same. We do not ignore those as we could loose our right to practice.
IMHO CC training (whatever company) needs to take the emphasis on CC being in control because we are not. We are not qualified to be. We are only first responders with very limited training and when somebody more qualified gives the value of their training and experience we should be taught to accept it.
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@ winstonsmith ... I'm paying for grumpy CC who don't like flying to IAD except for the fact that the money's good. And I'm paying J-class for the privilege?
Thats my point ... as you said, an unpopular destination for the CC, except for the money that THEY get. Service to the J-pax is not, from my experience, part of the deal. THAT is why I occasionally get a bit aerated on here.
BA exists for the Pax, not the CC. Or am I missing something?
Thats my point ... as you said, an unpopular destination for the CC, except for the money that THEY get. Service to the J-pax is not, from my experience, part of the deal. THAT is why I occasionally get a bit aerated on here.
BA exists for the Pax, not the CC. Or am I missing something?
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The crew on the GRU flight did a very good job - end of story. Crew will ALWAYS work according to directives from BA and MedLink. If there's a doctor on the plane who tells them to stop giving CPR after 20 minutes because there's no point continuing - they won't.
Can we put this aside?
Can we put this aside?
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Two-Tone-Blue
Misunderstood you, sorry.
Not saying everyone finds IAD to be an unpopular destination - it's probably one of the least liked cities in the US - but when it's part of a B2B most crew don't mind because of the money - money talks. Commuters also love B2B because of the hotel they get at LHR because they don't need to book other hotel or B&B.
So, yes - you as a passenger are paying for it and I'm sorry you find the crew most of the time to be grumpy!
Not saying everyone finds IAD to be an unpopular destination - it's probably one of the least liked cities in the US - but when it's part of a B2B most crew don't mind because of the money - money talks. Commuters also love B2B because of the hotel they get at LHR because they don't need to book other hotel or B&B.
So, yes - you as a passenger are paying for it and I'm sorry you find the crew most of the time to be grumpy!
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I think the cabin crew in this instance did exactly the correct thing. There is only one person who can vary SOPs onboard an aircraft and believe me that person is not a volunteer doctor. The cabin crew have procedures. The doctor has knowledge and skills. The cabin crew will utilise the knowledge and skill of the doctor to bring about the best possible outcome for the passenger but they should stay within those procedures. The cabin crew would be vulnerable to legal action if they deviated from those procedures. If those procedures are wrong the company may be liable as a whole but that is the companies problem not that of the individual crew member.
Regards Barbosa.
Regards Barbosa.
Last edited by CaptainBarbosa; 23rd Jan 2010 at 20:52.
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So let me get this straight. If I'm having a cardiac infarction on an aircraft and there is a cardiac specialist available to help, I am to rely on the CC following their thirty minutes of company policy rather than the advice of an expert?
Forgive me if I am forced to disagree!
Forgive me if I am forced to disagree!
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The medical incident that A Lurker posted here has no relevance to this thread.
IMHO it is totally inappropriate and should be deleted. It is for BA and their Medical Trainers to discuss and evaluate.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal opinion and not those of BA
IMHO it is totally inappropriate and should be deleted. It is for BA and their Medical Trainers to discuss and evaluate.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal opinion and not those of BA
As far as I was aware Hotline is part of staff travel and is a non contractural benefit. So if staff travel goes so does your Hotline benefit
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Desertia,
I am with ottergirl on this one. Don't want to say too much as it is just a little inappropriate and on a public site like Tiramisu has said. However, the procedure they followed is exactly per BA SOPs as we are taught in Avmed. If a doctor etc. instructs us to change our basic life saving procedure we MUST follow BA procedures. We call on them to help as they may be able to help with giving some advanced meds or injections like this example. However we must follow BA procedures. We also call on Medlink, if they tell us to stop then we may do so as they accept liability and are aware of our procedures. But we must follow BA procedures and we are expressly taught this in Avmed.
I am with ottergirl on this one. Don't want to say too much as it is just a little inappropriate and on a public site like Tiramisu has said. However, the procedure they followed is exactly per BA SOPs as we are taught in Avmed. If a doctor etc. instructs us to change our basic life saving procedure we MUST follow BA procedures. We call on them to help as they may be able to help with giving some advanced meds or injections like this example. However we must follow BA procedures. We also call on Medlink, if they tell us to stop then we may do so as they accept liability and are aware of our procedures. But we must follow BA procedures and we are expressly taught this in Avmed.
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Desertia.
It all depends on the advice that the doctor gives. If the advice is "we need to get this aircraft on the ground asap to save this life" then that is what we would probably do. If the advice, as it was in this case, was to give up when SOPs say to carry on giving first aid, then the crew will carry on.
I hope you can see the need for the SOPs as legal protection for the crew (and also for the volunteering doctor.) The SOPs are constantly reviewed and are changed if the procedures are not robust enough.
Thats my last on this subject. Back to hoping that all our cabin crew still have jobs in a few months time.
It all depends on the advice that the doctor gives. If the advice is "we need to get this aircraft on the ground asap to save this life" then that is what we would probably do. If the advice, as it was in this case, was to give up when SOPs say to carry on giving first aid, then the crew will carry on.
I hope you can see the need for the SOPs as legal protection for the crew (and also for the volunteering doctor.) The SOPs are constantly reviewed and are changed if the procedures are not robust enough.
Thats my last on this subject. Back to hoping that all our cabin crew still have jobs in a few months time.
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Hotline
As far as I was aware Hotline is part of staff travel and is a non contractural benefit. So if staff travel goes so does your Hotline benefit
So, striking cabin crew will retain their right to buy Hotline tickets, but their usefulness for crew who cannot buy staff travel tickets is limited.
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So, yes - you as a passenger are paying for it and I'm sorry you find the crew most of the time to be grumpy!
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Unite and the GMB have called on all workers at British Airways to reject the company's call for strike breakers and blah blah.
It’s not just about trade union principles, it’s your own self interest you need to think about!
Heres hoping for BASSAs demise!
Last edited by Openclimb; 24th Jan 2010 at 06:11.
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So BASSA are attacking BALPA regarding volunteers to be Cabin Crew.
No surprise really, their usual target.
What they are not telling the CC is that the large majority of volunteers are ground staff who are themselves members of UNITE. That's right your union!
Volunteers are being told that they should expect to be employed as full time cabin crew for the duration of the dispute. This is expected to be a maximum of 12 weeks. (The maximum strike length allowed from one ballot).
That's right 12 WEEKS. Not days.
Are you (as crew) prepared financially and otherwise to be unpaid and on strike for 12 weeks? The company ARE prepared.
What will your contract look like at the end of that time?? Better than is offered now or worse? Really, what do you think?
BASSA would rather destroy the company that pays you than lose face now. Or destroy themselves, either way it will never be their fault of course.
No surprise really, their usual target.
What they are not telling the CC is that the large majority of volunteers are ground staff who are themselves members of UNITE. That's right your union!
Volunteers are being told that they should expect to be employed as full time cabin crew for the duration of the dispute. This is expected to be a maximum of 12 weeks. (The maximum strike length allowed from one ballot).
That's right 12 WEEKS. Not days.
Are you (as crew) prepared financially and otherwise to be unpaid and on strike for 12 weeks? The company ARE prepared.
What will your contract look like at the end of that time?? Better than is offered now or worse? Really, what do you think?
BASSA would rather destroy the company that pays you than lose face now. Or destroy themselves, either way it will never be their fault of course.
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I have never quite understood why our cabin crew don't do mixed flying.
British Airtours cabin crew operated 737/747 or 737/Tristar.B Cal cabin crew did mixed flying.Crew who work for all the big airlines in europe do mixed flying.I realy do see BA introducing this concept regardless of any outcome with the present IA. It's the way forward.
British Airtours cabin crew operated 737/747 or 737/Tristar.B Cal cabin crew did mixed flying.Crew who work for all the big airlines in europe do mixed flying.I realy do see BA introducing this concept regardless of any outcome with the present IA. It's the way forward.
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Yes i was around then when 767 Fleet started the became known as midfleet.However it was only thrown together and not properly thought out.I am talking about ALL cabin crew doing mixed flying not just having a fleet for mixed flying .PS I remember all three too you forgot about DK.
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Mixed flying
I have never quite understood why our cabin crew don't do mixed flying.
Although CC have the variety of long and short-haul routes and faster promotion compared with LHR crew, their pay is poor by comparison. Last year, new LGW recruits were paid I believe a basic of under £11,000 per annum plus allowances. This is one reason why there is always a queue of people wanting to transfer to LHR.