British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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What's the betting that BA will say that they will only honour VR (severance) if there is a no-strike agreement.
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The clock is also ticking meaning there will be less time for IFCE to save the money as asked by BA. Surely this means the impact will be even harder and harsher than if an agreement had been reached before the deadline?
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I don't think BA will be choosing who to dismiss, as that certainly is not a fair and transparent. The only way that BA could choose, is to remove a complete grade as redundant.
I don't think BA will be choosing who to dismiss, as that certainly is not a fair and transparent. The only way that BA could choose, is to remove a complete grade as redundant.
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I don't think BA will be choosing who to dismiss, as that certainly is not a fair and transparent. The only way that BA could choose, is to remove a complete grade as redundant.
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I also think, and hope, that they will look at your service record if it comes to CR. A particular crew member, more senior than me, on a recent trip thought CR should be solely based on seniority, the LIFO policy, as they thougt it's the fairest. Very rich coming from a crew member who is in stage 4 of the EG300 for reporting sick for certain trips.
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Carnage Matey! is spot on (again). I've seen a number of CR exercises by companies. A common method is to use an objective scoring system based criteria that can count for or against you with a weighting attached to each criteria. Obvious examples for BA would be disciplinary record, absenteeism, and grading at last performance review (not sure how they work at BA).
A system based on LIFO or seniority is not going to happen.
A system based on LIFO or seniority is not going to happen.
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LIFO can still be used as part of a selection criteria, but would probably be used as a tie breaker, if two people were to score the same points in a capability, sickness, disciplinary etc. matrix.
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Litebulbs - I was going to say in my post that at a recent redundancy exercise at my employer, the tie breaker was actually how much you cost the company to employ. So that could be a tie breaker rather than LIFO.
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One big problem is agreeing an acceptable selection criteria, if the two sides are not talking. I would argue very strongly against how much you earn, as a tie breaker though. You are usually paid a wage for your qualification and capability. OK, you have may have an incremental pay scale too, but imagine if you lost your job because you were the most capable.
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Litebulbs, why on earth does a 'criteria have to be agreed'? BASSA have failed to do any negotiation so far, do you really think they will be bothered now?
Your post did make me chuckle.
Your post did make me chuckle.
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Andy,
Because at all times, BA have to be seen as being reasonable and fair. BASSA are not the only Unite union body within BA and there will be people affected that are not union members.
BA as a business and a fair few employees are doing their upmost to discredit BASSA. Do you think it would be wise to hand the momentum back to them, by coming out with some 19th Century selection criteria? It is automatically unfair to dismiss somebody just for being a member of a Trade Union, or taking legal industrial action, so BASSA employees could not be targeted.
Your post did make me sigh.
Because at all times, BA have to be seen as being reasonable and fair. BASSA are not the only Unite union body within BA and there will be people affected that are not union members.
BA as a business and a fair few employees are doing their upmost to discredit BASSA. Do you think it would be wise to hand the momentum back to them, by coming out with some 19th Century selection criteria? It is automatically unfair to dismiss somebody just for being a member of a Trade Union, or taking legal industrial action, so BASSA employees could not be targeted.
Your post did make me sigh.
Last edited by Litebulbs; 6th Sep 2009 at 20:17.
For what it's worth, BA tried to use sickness/absenteeism as part of a selection criteria not so long ago. It was dismissed by the TU due to some obscure anti-discrimination law. LIFO was used very recently (within last 12 months) as a tie breaker. Qualifications based on the needs of the business, at that time, were the deciding factors. The selection criteria may be agreed with the staff reps or set by the employer if the reps don't fancy getting lynched-again. 
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Andy,
Shot at when you negotiate and shot at when you don't. People have to blame somebody when a business reduces head count, so it might as well be the union, rather than the business that is doing it.
If one person looses a job, I certainly will not be laughing, will you?
Shot at when you negotiate and shot at when you don't. People have to blame somebody when a business reduces head count, so it might as well be the union, rather than the business that is doing it.
If one person looses a job, I certainly will not be laughing, will you?
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So, is it confirmed that the people wanting VR will know by the 14th September?
If so, that is crunch day I guess. Unless BA only offer enough people VR to cover the aircraft that are being stood down, then the rest of the crew are going to have to work harder to cover the flights. I don't think BA has ever offered VR for a position that was going to be backfilled (ie let someone go, and then replace them soon after, albeit with someone cheaper and on a new contract)
If a significant number are going to be let go on the 14th Sept, then it can only go one of two ways;
1) A negotiated settlement with crew working harder for the same money (BA's option) less money (BASSA's original plan, -2.61% anyone?) or more money (probably BASSA's new plan! extra uplift for CSDs, because they are going to have to do a lot more supervising now the troops are going to have to work harder
2) Industrial action based on imposition of contract change. (although, is it a change in contract? Or just a change in working agreement? Does a CC contract specify how many crew on an A319 to Paris / Manchester (6, 7?)
Also, I am amazed how CC have been kept in the dark by BASSA.
Have they actually told you how many airframes are being stood down, and how many crew that equates to? How does it compare to the 2000 figure?
Even if BASSA haven't bothered to tell you, are there any crew here with a decent grasp of the numbers involved that could enlighten us?
Thanks.
If so, that is crunch day I guess. Unless BA only offer enough people VR to cover the aircraft that are being stood down, then the rest of the crew are going to have to work harder to cover the flights. I don't think BA has ever offered VR for a position that was going to be backfilled (ie let someone go, and then replace them soon after, albeit with someone cheaper and on a new contract)
If a significant number are going to be let go on the 14th Sept, then it can only go one of two ways;
1) A negotiated settlement with crew working harder for the same money (BA's option) less money (BASSA's original plan, -2.61% anyone?) or more money (probably BASSA's new plan! extra uplift for CSDs, because they are going to have to do a lot more supervising now the troops are going to have to work harder
2) Industrial action based on imposition of contract change. (although, is it a change in contract? Or just a change in working agreement? Does a CC contract specify how many crew on an A319 to Paris / Manchester (6, 7?)
Also, I am amazed how CC have been kept in the dark by BASSA.
Have they actually told you how many airframes are being stood down, and how many crew that equates to? How does it compare to the 2000 figure?
Even if BASSA haven't bothered to tell you, are there any crew here with a decent grasp of the numbers involved that could enlighten us?
Thanks.
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No the cabin crew contract does not specify crew complements. What does state the complements and all the things that BA would like to change is a MOA, which is a agreement signed both by BA and reps to which we work to (holy bible)which most people call industrial agreement.
As it is a working agreement agreed by both parties, before any changes can be made to it, it must be agreed by both parties. Before anyone goes on about SOR, please do not bore me with it as my neighbour here in spain specialises in Eu employment law which superceedes any UK law. He laughs at some of thr threads trying to scare crew with it. Ba would not be allowed to recruit new entrants or transfer any crew if the above did take place.
For those that are afraid to go on strike, my only advice is that I have been on 3 picket lines, I am still here at BA holding a SCCM position. They will try to intimidate and scare you as much as they can but you need to be strong. On the first strike I had only been flying 2 months
As it is a working agreement agreed by both parties, before any changes can be made to it, it must be agreed by both parties. Before anyone goes on about SOR, please do not bore me with it as my neighbour here in spain specialises in Eu employment law which superceedes any UK law. He laughs at some of thr threads trying to scare crew with it. Ba would not be allowed to recruit new entrants or transfer any crew if the above did take place.
For those that are afraid to go on strike, my only advice is that I have been on 3 picket lines, I am still here at BA holding a SCCM position. They will try to intimidate and scare you as much as they can but you need to be strong. On the first strike I had only been flying 2 months
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"I said no" BA won't need any extra people because there is a reduction in hulls for the next three seasons.
I suspect your neighbour is not as expert as you surmise. I actually paid to speak with an employment laywer here in the UK. SOSR is a real threat, and can be used to over-ride any agreements with unions. Have a look for your self, it allows an employer to issue you with a new contract. If you choose not to accept it, you will have resigned. BASSA have conveniently forgotten to tell us the truth.
You could ask your lawyer neighbour to provide us with where we can look up suitable references of case law. If he can't, I am afraid it's another case of galley fm rumour being accepted as fact.
Litebulbs, BASSA have not negotiated the Voluntary Redundancies..... They have negotiated nothing this time round, but I bet they claim they did!
I suspect your neighbour is not as expert as you surmise. I actually paid to speak with an employment laywer here in the UK. SOSR is a real threat, and can be used to over-ride any agreements with unions. Have a look for your self, it allows an employer to issue you with a new contract. If you choose not to accept it, you will have resigned. BASSA have conveniently forgotten to tell us the truth.
You could ask your lawyer neighbour to provide us with where we can look up suitable references of case law. If he can't, I am afraid it's another case of galley fm rumour being accepted as fact.
Litebulbs, BASSA have not negotiated the Voluntary Redundancies..... They have negotiated nothing this time round, but I bet they claim they did!