British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Plodding Along
Posts on CF may appear under a pseudoname, but in order to vew the site, let alone post on it, one must provide information that proves you are a cabin crew member and appears to be sufficient for interested parties with the necessary levels of access (mods, etc) to identify you. it is reasonable to assume that the BASSA leadership and their acolytes will be able to identify anyone posting views they do not like and then take what they consider to be appropriate action.
I know you are worried about the vicious responses but it is an anonymous forum.
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Perry-oak
Thanks. I don't believe in shouting abuse and certainly don't approve of anybody who does, regardless whether they are CC, pilots or general public.
To be honest with you I actually agree with you, however it is a known facts that High Courts tends to favour companies and businesses.
I don't believe in conspirancy but ask yourself this.
Why would the High Court not put a stop to BA imposition, when even the BA lawyers aggreed that there were irregularities with the imposition?
Sadly the only language Mr Walsh is willing to listen is the language of the ballot..I was in the high court yesterday and with in minutes from the judge decision, BA walked out of the talks.
You must believe me when I say to you that most of us don't want to go this way, but trust me we have no options left.
People may have different views of what has been said or not, who is being honest or not but the simple truth remains that over 91% of us belive that BA is not being honest
Thanks. I don't believe in shouting abuse and certainly don't approve of anybody who does, regardless whether they are CC, pilots or general public.
To be honest with you I actually agree with you, however it is a known facts that High Courts tends to favour companies and businesses.
I don't believe in conspirancy but ask yourself this.
Why would the High Court not put a stop to BA imposition, when even the BA lawyers aggreed that there were irregularities with the imposition?
Sadly the only language Mr Walsh is willing to listen is the language of the ballot..I was in the high court yesterday and with in minutes from the judge decision, BA walked out of the talks.
You must believe me when I say to you that most of us don't want to go this way, but trust me we have no options left.
People may have different views of what has been said or not, who is being honest or not but the simple truth remains that over 91% of us belive that BA is not being honest
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Welcome romans 44!
Tiramisu, you obviously listen to everything the company tells you, and that's ok .we do live in a democracy.
BA had this plan long before the recession and long before they started negotiating..This has never been about anything else but to put an end to our terms and conditions, surely u must see that.
We offered a very good deal to BA, including pay cut, the deal was worth a huge amount of money in savings but BA was simple not interested.
BA had this plan long before the recession and long before they started negotiating..This has never been about anything else but to put an end to our terms and conditions, surely u must see that.
We offered a very good deal to BA, including pay cut, the deal was worth a huge amount of money in savings but BA was simple not interested.
Don't forget, Tiramisu, me and others on this forum have been very open about where we come from, now ex members of the union.
What are your comments based on? ALL businesses review what they do and how they do it, all the time. Urgent threats to the business, (financial etc. may fast track some changes others are longer term aspirations that never see the light of day).
Were the 'huge savings' your representatives proposed forever?
On this forum others have said that the savings being offered fell way short of what was needed. Is that true?
We have to deal with facts. No change of pay, time off, leave, etc, etc,etc. The questions around taking one crew member off the aircraft will be decided in Feb.
It's not about what someone might think may happen in the future that is conjecture, in my view very unfair and misleading.
Over the course of 9 months the company has tried to find otherways, unfortunately they haven't come fruition, bills still coming in, savings needing to be made (already made in loads of other departments).
In my view the company had to take modest steps to start the process of saving money. Some didn't like that!
I have spoken to lots of people over the last few days colleagues and friends outside the airline. The question I am being asked is are T & C's changing for me? My answer is NO (my view). A court may decide otherwise in Feb.
Romans44, what happens in Feb if the court doesn't agree with the Union's assertion re. crewing levels linked to T & C's?
Can your union really take another repeat of yesterday?
Throw into the mix the possibilty of another ballot, public feeling and indeed the feeling around our company.
I have so much empathy with Tiramisu and indeed the mum who confronted T in PC world.
This week has been so difficult for so many of our customers and us. (I am talking ALL employees, esp. those having to put their Christmas on hold to willingly help out against the looming IA and my empathy also goes out to those crew being asked to strike for 12 DAYS SOLID, which I don't believe was mentioned on the ballot form).
If we have a repeat of this in a few weeks then so be it.
Me and lots of others will be ready to lend a hand we will not stand by and let our customers and company be put at risk.
Welcome to the forum.
All my views, they do not represent my employer or any other party.
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To all the cabin crew who are so desperate to keep the job they hate, working for a boss they loathe, flying with pilots they despise and passengers who dislike them I would say:
Merry X-mass!
I hope that on that infamous 12th day of x-mass WW gives you something worth striking about. It is just a shame that 10% of you do not deserve this.
BA already charmed its frequent flyers with generous compensation for the inconvenience caused. Another point for WW. I honestly do not care if you strike again and again. I will keep loyal to BA if only to stick it to the union.
Merry X-mass!
I hope that on that infamous 12th day of x-mass WW gives you something worth striking about. It is just a shame that 10% of you do not deserve this.
BA already charmed its frequent flyers with generous compensation for the inconvenience caused. Another point for WW. I honestly do not care if you strike again and again. I will keep loyal to BA if only to stick it to the union.
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new ballot just around the corner.
crew incenced by the condemnation heaped upon them.
just look at the one sided press coverage and manipulated facts and figures.
i guess the majority in favour of action will be even higher in the new ballot.
potential customers unable to book with BA due to possible industrial action.
What a mess,action is needed now to resolve this dispute.
How sad to see a once great company,being humiliated in such a way,absolutely disgracefull.
get together,resolve the contencious issues and make BA a success for employees and shareholders.
crew incenced by the condemnation heaped upon them.
just look at the one sided press coverage and manipulated facts and figures.
i guess the majority in favour of action will be even higher in the new ballot.
potential customers unable to book with BA due to possible industrial action.
What a mess,action is needed now to resolve this dispute.
How sad to see a once great company,being humiliated in such a way,absolutely disgracefull.
get together,resolve the contencious issues and make BA a success for employees and shareholders.
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Hi Clarified, thanks...
I am not going to answer to you only because I have already being accused of repeating myself and being boring.
I find interesting the facts that many people blame us (CC) for ruining people's life, when the only one person who could put an end to this, hardly gets mentioned.
This could all end tomorrow but it won't.
His mission is to destroy our union and once he has finished with us he will go for other departments.
I am the first one to say that mistakes have been made from both sides, but instead of putting pressure only on us ,why not putting some pressure on the one person who can really make a difference and get the talks back to the table?
I am not going to answer to you only because I have already being accused of repeating myself and being boring.
I find interesting the facts that many people blame us (CC) for ruining people's life, when the only one person who could put an end to this, hardly gets mentioned.
This could all end tomorrow but it won't.
His mission is to destroy our union and once he has finished with us he will go for other departments.
I am the first one to say that mistakes have been made from both sides, but instead of putting pressure only on us ,why not putting some pressure on the one person who can really make a difference and get the talks back to the table?
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romans44,
Negotiations mean that you could also not get everything you want. So do you mean that BA Management could end this by complying to all your wishes or do you mean that you are willing to concede some of your demands?
Don't talk about the proposed alternative plan by the union. That is not what I am asking. I am asking which of your current demands you are willing to relinquish in order to resolve the dispute. Newfleet? The reduction in crew on long haul? What?
A short answer will do.
Negotiations mean that you could also not get everything you want. So do you mean that BA Management could end this by complying to all your wishes or do you mean that you are willing to concede some of your demands?
Don't talk about the proposed alternative plan by the union. That is not what I am asking. I am asking which of your current demands you are willing to relinquish in order to resolve the dispute. Newfleet? The reduction in crew on long haul? What?
A short answer will do.
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The union keep harping on about their ''wonderful'' proposal from June/July. Great for them to offer something, it doesn't save enough. OK time for them to look at all of our agreements, and what we could give up/change and how much each saves, then choose enough to make the £140m target including new crew and new promotions/transfers on new contracts. Things that could change on shorthaul include:
-fixed links (no more CATs etc)
-longer days up to scheme limits found in JPMs (length of day depends on sectors flown and what time you depart the earlier/later you report the less the day allowed... and how ''acclimatised'' you are)
-new crew complements that have already been introduced... if the union can agree to some more savings elsewhere maybe they could put certain crew members back on
-less day off on EF (not something I would like though but an idea)
-last day you can work up 'til 2200 on working block of 5 days or less
-Being able to link a Band 3 trip with a domestic/Band 1 ONLY!!
-not being able to request 18hrs after a longer duty, unless scheme requires!
Longhaul I'm not too familiar with their agreements but
-crew complements as they are
-SFO, LAX etc just single night (again not necassarily an agreeable one but an idea to pick and choose from)
-new disruption agreement
Any other ideas from longhaul people then say but yeah, along with new contracts etc surely a couple of these proposals from both fleets would add up to a good savings?? I'm sure many BASSA people will be saying No to all of those but facts are, WW are not doing it to be mean, they have to change some things like many other companies to survive. Plus, they want to keep our pay the same... Or negotiate a reasonable agreement whereby new fleet is created, current crew either have oppurtunity to transfer or go for promotion on NF etc if they wish or stay on EF/WW on current pay and company and unions agree on a matrix of routes to be transferred and a decent fixed payment to save the worry of ''starvation of work'' for current fleets!
That will never happen though without a load of ''why can't we stay the same etc'' and toys flying out of the pram will it??
Just an idea don't shoot me down!
-fixed links (no more CATs etc)
-longer days up to scheme limits found in JPMs (length of day depends on sectors flown and what time you depart the earlier/later you report the less the day allowed... and how ''acclimatised'' you are)
-new crew complements that have already been introduced... if the union can agree to some more savings elsewhere maybe they could put certain crew members back on
-less day off on EF (not something I would like though but an idea)
-last day you can work up 'til 2200 on working block of 5 days or less
-Being able to link a Band 3 trip with a domestic/Band 1 ONLY!!
-not being able to request 18hrs after a longer duty, unless scheme requires!
Longhaul I'm not too familiar with their agreements but
-crew complements as they are
-SFO, LAX etc just single night (again not necassarily an agreeable one but an idea to pick and choose from)
-new disruption agreement
Any other ideas from longhaul people then say but yeah, along with new contracts etc surely a couple of these proposals from both fleets would add up to a good savings?? I'm sure many BASSA people will be saying No to all of those but facts are, WW are not doing it to be mean, they have to change some things like many other companies to survive. Plus, they want to keep our pay the same... Or negotiate a reasonable agreement whereby new fleet is created, current crew either have oppurtunity to transfer or go for promotion on NF etc if they wish or stay on EF/WW on current pay and company and unions agree on a matrix of routes to be transferred and a decent fixed payment to save the worry of ''starvation of work'' for current fleets!
That will never happen though without a load of ''why can't we stay the same etc'' and toys flying out of the pram will it??
Just an idea don't shoot me down!
Last edited by SlideBustle; 19th Dec 2009 at 00:51. Reason: Spelling mistakes
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romans44,
Clarified has answered very eloquently the question you asked me, I couldn't have put it better.
Thanks Clarified.
As for WW getting rid of our T's and C's by imposing changes to crewing levels which for us in Eurofleet is simply removing 1 crew off per flight and keeping everything else, it is my right to accept those changes if they work for me. There wasn't a single item that BASSA proposed in savings to BA which I was in favour off, not one. It's a democracy you say, and it's with that, that I voted No to Strike and to accept the changes. In the present climate, BA have been more than generous in my view.
How can anyone in their right mind argue about that.
Everyone I know from CSDs, Pursers and Main Crew are now working with the changes. If and when there are any problems, feedback is given to BA with a view to correct or tweak things. BA are working with us on this and support has been given every step of the way and still is, during the changes in matrix/crewing levels and service standards. We weren't thrown in the deep end and left to our own devices.
BASSA/UNITE have severely damaged our reputation as BA Cabin Crew. We will not recover from this. We are seen as a greedy and selfish workforce by the public and I don't blame them. I hold BASSA/UNITE responsible for the wrath we now have to endure, just not fair is it? Not to those of us who were sacrificing our Christmas to work over the entire Strike period and as Clarified, says I will do it at the drop of a hat. BA is my employer.
For each cabin crew member in BA, there are at least 100 or more out there ready to step into our shoes for half the salary regardless of T's and C's just to work for BA.
BASSA as I have said before in a much earlier post, are expediting us on to New Fleet, the very thing that you are striking against, think about it.
I'm BA cabin crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of my employer's.
Clarified has answered very eloquently the question you asked me, I couldn't have put it better.
Thanks Clarified.
As for WW getting rid of our T's and C's by imposing changes to crewing levels which for us in Eurofleet is simply removing 1 crew off per flight and keeping everything else, it is my right to accept those changes if they work for me. There wasn't a single item that BASSA proposed in savings to BA which I was in favour off, not one. It's a democracy you say, and it's with that, that I voted No to Strike and to accept the changes. In the present climate, BA have been more than generous in my view.
How can anyone in their right mind argue about that.
Everyone I know from CSDs, Pursers and Main Crew are now working with the changes. If and when there are any problems, feedback is given to BA with a view to correct or tweak things. BA are working with us on this and support has been given every step of the way and still is, during the changes in matrix/crewing levels and service standards. We weren't thrown in the deep end and left to our own devices.
BASSA/UNITE have severely damaged our reputation as BA Cabin Crew. We will not recover from this. We are seen as a greedy and selfish workforce by the public and I don't blame them. I hold BASSA/UNITE responsible for the wrath we now have to endure, just not fair is it? Not to those of us who were sacrificing our Christmas to work over the entire Strike period and as Clarified, says I will do it at the drop of a hat. BA is my employer.
For each cabin crew member in BA, there are at least 100 or more out there ready to step into our shoes for half the salary regardless of T's and C's just to work for BA.
BASSA as I have said before in a much earlier post, are expediting us on to New Fleet, the very thing that you are striking against, think about it.
I'm BA cabin crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of my employer's.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 19th Dec 2009 at 00:57.
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Finally, how ironic that BASSA said in their newsletter that "we won't make the same mistakes as BALPA did in their ballot". Correct. BALPA didn't make a balloting error, you did. Rank amateurs. Talk a good game though.
romans44:
People may have different views of what has been said or not, who is being honest or not but the simple truth remains that over 91% of us belive that BA is not being honest
Anecdotally, there is a lot of dischord among the BASSA membership, with many voting YES, but meaning NO, and not really willing to down tools.
BASSA/UNITE now have a bit of a dilemma on their hands of their own making:
1. Another ballot with a big YES vote will unleash the wrath of the public & the media again, and no doubt get the BA lawyers sharpening their knives again.
2. A NO vote, or a close YES/NO vote will see the Pigs at Animal Farm lose any remaining credibility within the membership as you will not be able to carry out successful strike action on a low mandate.
Whichever way I look at it, I see your union defeated. Either BA will get you in case 1 with the support of the media/public, or you're union will consume itself from within in the second case.
You're only hope out of this mess, with your union intact, but a bit weaker, is for you to tell the Pigs that they are, in fact, not in charge of the Farm, but merely mouthpieces, and that you want them to enter in to meaningful negotiation with BA as per SlideBustle and Tiramisu posts above..
It may well be too late, however. Willie has you firmly in his sights, and I don't think the other animals have a loud enough voice to be overheard from all the commotion going on inside the farmhouse...(Apologies to Eric Blair for the similies).
My sympathies. This will not be pretty.
It's time for the members to start thinking, rather than shouting, and it's time to start listening, rather than pouting.
And I'm a poet..
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Tiramisu, and Clarfied I agree with you both. WW is not imposing to break the union IN MY OPINION. If he was then he would have done it way back when talks started. People in other industries etc... who may have gone through many changes over the years etc and may have even lost their jobs may actually be surprised as to how patient BA have been through their talks!!! Remember, June 30th was their deadline and they did warn changes would be imposed. Nothing apart from new complements is set in stone yet!! The only reason why BA seem unreasonable to some people is that they think they are immune to change and there isn't a recession.
Any BASSA people who say ''we are flexible people by nature'', well then back it up by saying what kind of changes could be agreed, I've given a list in a post a few posts back... Bear in mind the unions proposal only saved around not half of what BA wanted!!
Any BASSA people who say ''we are flexible people by nature'', well then back it up by saying what kind of changes could be agreed, I've given a list in a post a few posts back... Bear in mind the unions proposal only saved around not half of what BA wanted!!
Last edited by SlideBustle; 19th Dec 2009 at 01:03. Reason: To remove something!
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henkbaby, No I don't mean that. I trully believe in negotiation but as I said so many times, changes should come via means of negotiation not imposition.
There are way of removing this imposition and it doesn't have to happen overnight. I am not going to say what I would give up or not in fear of being quoted on the Daily Mail tomorrow,that is down to my union to say.
There are way of removing this imposition and it doesn't have to happen overnight. I am not going to say what I would give up or not in fear of being quoted on the Daily Mail tomorrow,that is down to my union to say.
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Romans I do hear what you are saying re:imposition and how it is not ideal... what happens if as a company you negotiate for 9 months change a few proposals and the union refuse to negotiate unless it is on their terms. IE. walking out of meetings etc when BA give presentation etc. Company is bleeding cash... can the company wait forever until BASSA agree to something the company do which could be never?? The imposition was not about pay etc either which they could have done.
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Idol Detent, God!!!!you sound so arrogant and patronising.Would love to know what you do for a living.
How can u claim to know how 11.000 people have voted?
-breathtaking ignorance
-Champagne Socialist
Petulant and ungreatful teenagers
God!!!!how pretentious and ignorant these statements sound.
How can u claim to know how 11.000 people have voted?
-breathtaking ignorance
-Champagne Socialist
Petulant and ungreatful teenagers
God!!!!how pretentious and ignorant these statements sound.
Last edited by romans44; 19th Dec 2009 at 01:44.
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new ballot just around the corner.
crew incenced by the condemnation heaped upon them.
just look at the one sided press coverage and manipulated facts and figures.
i guess the majority in favour of action will be even higher in the new ballot.
crew incenced by the condemnation heaped upon them.
just look at the one sided press coverage and manipulated facts and figures.
i guess the majority in favour of action will be even higher in the new ballot.
This situation needs cool heads, but your union leadership are now out to get revenge on Willie Walsh and BA for what has happened over the last week. He is never going to take them seriously after the ballot debacle, and he clearly isn't scared. This is not a good situation for BASSA to be in, but instead of taking some time to think about the next steps, they are steaming straight back in head first.
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Real World
BA cc need to get a grip !! you have no idea what a cushy existence you lead.
Try working for a Middle East carrier and you may discover what work is about. We stay at the same hotels at various down route destinations as yourselfs and you display the "I'm on a paid holiday attitude" for all to see.
WW is only seeking minor concessions.
Try working for a Middle East carrier and you may discover what work is about. We stay at the same hotels at various down route destinations as yourselfs and you display the "I'm on a paid holiday attitude" for all to see.
WW is only seeking minor concessions.
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actually Brox it is..what BA forgot to mention is that while our salaries include meal allowances , Virging Atlantic don't.
I don't know where BA got the basic salary of 14.000 for Virgin but I can tell you that my basic salary is a lot less than that.
I am a junior crew member and I do not earn 35.000 pounds, though I wish I did.
Llife has taught me not to always ,believe what the media says, especially if it is the Daily Mail. if u choose to believe it I am afraid is your call.
I don't think u are aware that our union went to the High Court last month, but there again why would you know?
The papers didn't bothered reporting it.
I don't know where BA got the basic salary of 14.000 for Virgin but I can tell you that my basic salary is a lot less than that.
I am a junior crew member and I do not earn 35.000 pounds, though I wish I did.
Llife has taught me not to always ,believe what the media says, especially if it is the Daily Mail. if u choose to believe it I am afraid is your call.
I don't think u are aware that our union went to the High Court last month, but there again why would you know?
The papers didn't bothered reporting it.
Last edited by romans44; 19th Dec 2009 at 02:01.
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Bronx with all due respect I don't think u know what u are talking about.
There is nothing wrong with people earning good salaries after 20/30/40 years of service.
Some people in my company earn up to 64.000 pounds in one month, not in one year, in one month but of course you wouldn't know this either.
This has never been about money, we even offered a pay cut. Please try and get your facts straight before accusing people.
There is nothing wrong with people earning good salaries after 20/30/40 years of service.
Some people in my company earn up to 64.000 pounds in one month, not in one year, in one month but of course you wouldn't know this either.
This has never been about money, we even offered a pay cut. Please try and get your facts straight before accusing people.
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Sadly the only language Mr Walsh is willing to listen is the language of the ballot..I was in the high court yesterday and with in minutes from the judge decision, BA walked out of the talks.
Why would the High Court not put a stop to BA imposition, when even the BA lawyers aggreed <sic> that there were irregularities with the imposition?
In answer to your question, the imposition can easly be removed with an agreement, and it wouldn't have to happen overnight.
You swallow every single line of crap they come up with, and then, like the good little sheep you are, regurgitate it elsewhere. Your Union has CONSISTENTLY refused to negotiate while the company is losing 50 million pounds a month, and then wonders why it had to take action.
Do as people have asked you. Start from the beginning of this thread and read carefully, so that you have some of the facts before you start making yourself look silly.
Imposition was a last resort by the company, because your squalid little bunch of idiots that run BASSA had tried to fob the company off with a package of savings worth less than a third of what it was supposed to be, and well short of the savings needed to STOP THE AIRLINE LOSING MONEY.
More to the point, it put its fingers in its ears over the state of the airline industry, saying "it's only temporary, it's only temporary". Well in that time, airlines have PERMANENTLY gone out of business.
Do you not read the newspapers? Did you not hear about FlyGlobeSpan?
Or are you just too brainwashed to actually put two and two together and realise this is not a fight you should be having with your employer, but a fight you and your colleagues should be having to save the company?
For the love of God, please read this thread from the beginning, without any preconceived notions. You will receive a plethora of information that your union would rather you not see, especially concerning their own disgraceful behaviour which threatens YOUR job.
When you've done that, we will be more than willing to hear your comments and questions.
Is that too much to ask?
Last edited by Desertia; 19th Dec 2009 at 02:46.