British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Alex, I've not seen anything, other than one post on here, that unite intend to appeal this. None of the news wires are carrying anything.
The usual soundbites from earlier today have died down and some sensible thinking should follow.
The usual soundbites from earlier today have died down and some sensible thinking should follow.
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Vortex,
No, I haven't heard anything either except a couple of posts on BASSA but no confirmation and no word from them either. I would expect that they will send something before midnight. A friend also said she had heard about a possible appeal but that it would have to go to Court of Appeal and not High Court.
If they are to re-ballot surely it would be best to wait until after the court hearing in February? If they do it now the court WW would probably just claim that they are to be heard in February and by that get another injunction?
No, I haven't heard anything either except a couple of posts on BASSA but no confirmation and no word from them either. I would expect that they will send something before midnight. A friend also said she had heard about a possible appeal but that it would have to go to Court of Appeal and not High Court.
If they are to re-ballot surely it would be best to wait until after the court hearing in February? If they do it now the court WW would probably just claim that they are to be heard in February and by that get another injunction?
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People are suggesting, over on R & N, that when CC voted to strike they had no idea that a twelve day strike over Christmas was what was intended, does that sound real?
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Parabellum,
There was no mention of this in the ballot paper. Most crew probably assumed it would be in blocks i.e. three days of striking and four days of work and probably that it would take place after Christmas.
There was no mention of this in the ballot paper. Most crew probably assumed it would be in blocks i.e. three days of striking and four days of work and probably that it would take place after Christmas.
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Hi, not posted on here as have been on a trip and not had access to the internet.
Upon landing, I was informed of the result of the court case by a passenger. They seemed to be relieved. God I know I was! Obviously could not say anything in front of the passengers as I was aware they were watching us carefully.
On my crew, three people apart from me said how seriously disillusioned they are with Bassa and how personal all the emails and tripe they send through the post got. And that £15 was a waste of money and would be cancelling their subscriptions. But of course, we (the membership) could never question anything that Bassa did, anyone remember the 'savings' that Bassa said were £170 million that actually turned out to be only £54 million? That was when I made up my mind to vote 'No'. I knew what the reaction could probably be if I asked the question on the BASSA website and I don't want to be represented by people like that.
I am off to cancel my subscription in the morning (could not do it so far as was on a trip), and I suspect many will do the same.
The mood of the crew I saw today was relief. I believe many will think carefully about voting for another strike (if it even gets that far).
Yours, in relief
AD
Upon landing, I was informed of the result of the court case by a passenger. They seemed to be relieved. God I know I was! Obviously could not say anything in front of the passengers as I was aware they were watching us carefully.
On my crew, three people apart from me said how seriously disillusioned they are with Bassa and how personal all the emails and tripe they send through the post got. And that £15 was a waste of money and would be cancelling their subscriptions. But of course, we (the membership) could never question anything that Bassa did, anyone remember the 'savings' that Bassa said were £170 million that actually turned out to be only £54 million? That was when I made up my mind to vote 'No'. I knew what the reaction could probably be if I asked the question on the BASSA website and I don't want to be represented by people like that.
I am off to cancel my subscription in the morning (could not do it so far as was on a trip), and I suspect many will do the same.
The mood of the crew I saw today was relief. I believe many will think carefully about voting for another strike (if it even gets that far).
Yours, in relief
AD
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Anyone care to have a guess at how long the artificial 'truce' between BASSA and CC89 will last?
I suspect that CC89 are extremely cheesed off with BASSA and lala Malone right now about being dragged through the dirt/tarred with the same brush.
Recriminations are bound to follow, with CC89 probably demanding a return to negotiation rather than another ballot.
Anyone care to indicate what is being said on the Amicus/CC89 forum?
I suspect that CC89 are extremely cheesed off with BASSA and lala Malone right now about being dragged through the dirt/tarred with the same brush.
Recriminations are bound to follow, with CC89 probably demanding a return to negotiation rather than another ballot.
Anyone care to indicate what is being said on the Amicus/CC89 forum?
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IheartMBt...
I understand that you wish to save what you have, its a natural stance to take.
However, your message has been overtaken by the real world.
As an individual who gets paid to interpret messages in negotiation settings, you have already lost.
1. The BA CC entered into this fray with no clear message to the consumer regarding what they were fighting for..No personal wage cuts planned, no endangerment of passengers. Nothing.
2. BA CC are at the top of the wage scale in their profession. Hard to claim hardship under those circumstances.
3. A strike of any kind was an overreaction to the situation at hand, but a 12 day strike during the Christmas season, and then to label your action as the "12 Days of Christmas"? Who are you paying to advise you because this was a loser from the start.
4. Your airline is losing money on a daily basis and virtually every other component has made compromises...and somehow the Cabin staff are above this...when the Pilots have recognized the need to compromise for the best of the airline?
5. You have a choice of how to sell, and when to sell, your complaints to the public, and you choose a 12 DAY STRIKE DURING THE CHRISTMAS SEASON to make your point??? What were you thinking?
Your spokespeople can speak of the fact that now " you won't get Christmas", they can rattle on about what wrongs have been done...
But right now..you are toast. You didn't have your cards in a row when you made this decision, you are backtracking regarding that fact after getting shot down in court...and you have defined the reality that you will be dealing with from this point on.
The perception is now that the public feels nothing but disdain for you. Your decision to strike "The 12 Days of Christmas" was brutal in its message to the flying public. You can now strike later, and the perception will be the same..you already played your card.
As harsh as this may sound, you have already lost. You put BA's back to the wall with an endeavor that you were not capable of backing up with your public message, and then you failed on your procedure.
My personal hope, based on the big bow of weakness you have handed BA, is that they refuse to (though we never say "refuse", we say "The terms are simply not reasonable given the present situation") negotiate with BA CC, if it means a reorganization after bankruptcy (or whatever the term is in the U.K.) fine...They get the win.
Your stance has totally exposed you to not only not being willing to insist on BA's failure, but to being dismissive to its clients.
You can argue the fine points till the cows come home but the fact is that in the public's mind you have lost the battle.
Come to the table with something on a "real world" basis (and be grateful if anyone meets you at the table), and hope for the best.
Vote to strike again...and BA will survive, perhaps under a different structure, a different brand, but they will survive...and you won't.
Whoever told you that you were ready for this sort of challenge was a fool, and whoever voted for it without thinking of the big picture was a fool.
It is what it is.
(and to the spellcheckers amongst you..its late, and I'm just posting)
However, your message has been overtaken by the real world.
As an individual who gets paid to interpret messages in negotiation settings, you have already lost.
1. The BA CC entered into this fray with no clear message to the consumer regarding what they were fighting for..No personal wage cuts planned, no endangerment of passengers. Nothing.
2. BA CC are at the top of the wage scale in their profession. Hard to claim hardship under those circumstances.
3. A strike of any kind was an overreaction to the situation at hand, but a 12 day strike during the Christmas season, and then to label your action as the "12 Days of Christmas"? Who are you paying to advise you because this was a loser from the start.
4. Your airline is losing money on a daily basis and virtually every other component has made compromises...and somehow the Cabin staff are above this...when the Pilots have recognized the need to compromise for the best of the airline?
5. You have a choice of how to sell, and when to sell, your complaints to the public, and you choose a 12 DAY STRIKE DURING THE CHRISTMAS SEASON to make your point??? What were you thinking?
Your spokespeople can speak of the fact that now " you won't get Christmas", they can rattle on about what wrongs have been done...
But right now..you are toast. You didn't have your cards in a row when you made this decision, you are backtracking regarding that fact after getting shot down in court...and you have defined the reality that you will be dealing with from this point on.
The perception is now that the public feels nothing but disdain for you. Your decision to strike "The 12 Days of Christmas" was brutal in its message to the flying public. You can now strike later, and the perception will be the same..you already played your card.
As harsh as this may sound, you have already lost. You put BA's back to the wall with an endeavor that you were not capable of backing up with your public message, and then you failed on your procedure.
My personal hope, based on the big bow of weakness you have handed BA, is that they refuse to (though we never say "refuse", we say "The terms are simply not reasonable given the present situation") negotiate with BA CC, if it means a reorganization after bankruptcy (or whatever the term is in the U.K.) fine...They get the win.
Your stance has totally exposed you to not only not being willing to insist on BA's failure, but to being dismissive to its clients.
You can argue the fine points till the cows come home but the fact is that in the public's mind you have lost the battle.
Come to the table with something on a "real world" basis (and be grateful if anyone meets you at the table), and hope for the best.
Vote to strike again...and BA will survive, perhaps under a different structure, a different brand, but they will survive...and you won't.
Whoever told you that you were ready for this sort of challenge was a fool, and whoever voted for it without thinking of the big picture was a fool.
It is what it is.
(and to the spellcheckers amongst you..its late, and I'm just posting)
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Please, please, please can someone post on BASSA/CF and ask why Liz Malones "legally flawed" post was made in the first place, despite it not being "the union position", and why on earth it was allowed to stay up there uncorrected for so long!
I bet no one does ask, even the BASSA militants don't have the balls to question the reps!
Also, I noticed the brilliant post by the ("kitchen fitting"?) moderator, that if anyone posted any links to any of the stories in the newspapers about the reps, it would be removed and the person barred! Incredible. Mugabe would be proud!
I am genuinely worried that crew won't get the truth about this court case.
I'm very tempted to try and get the transcript of the Judges decision, and all her mentions of 'the Malone post' and photocopy them for all the briefing rooms in T5!! Please people, start asking some questions about your reps!
I bet no one does ask, even the BASSA militants don't have the balls to question the reps!
Also, I noticed the brilliant post by the ("kitchen fitting"?) moderator, that if anyone posted any links to any of the stories in the newspapers about the reps, it would be removed and the person barred! Incredible. Mugabe would be proud!
I am genuinely worried that crew won't get the truth about this court case.
I'm very tempted to try and get the transcript of the Judges decision, and all her mentions of 'the Malone post' and photocopy them for all the briefing rooms in T5!! Please people, start asking some questions about your reps!
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What saddens me are the number of crew who are shocked at how high the average cabin crew salaries are. Over 60% of you are on the new - post '97 contract. You are all being led to McJobs by a minority of overpaid 1970s
dinosaurs who have nothing to lose by BA going bust. You all do the same job - they do not deserve so much more money! How can you be represented by a 33%er LA commuter who hasn't even pushed a trolley in over a year?!
Also, why should an LHR rep get £100 per day compared to the £70 paid to reps from LGW? Are they better reps?!
It is time to take back control of YOUR union.
dinosaurs who have nothing to lose by BA going bust. You all do the same job - they do not deserve so much more money! How can you be represented by a 33%er LA commuter who hasn't even pushed a trolley in over a year?!
Also, why should an LHR rep get £100 per day compared to the £70 paid to reps from LGW? Are they better reps?!
It is time to take back control of YOUR union.
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WeekendFlyer...
Hold on a minute. There are faults on BOTH sides here.
Wee Willie is 'steamrolling' through department after department within BA, with NO regard for the airlines future. First the Regions 3 years ago, then the flightdeck who dully agreed a deal, now cabin crew. Next the engineers (in conjunction with the Iberia 'alliance'), then our friends at Gatwick!
I didnt agree with 12 days of strikes, but I also dont agree with the leaders cavalier attitude. BA is a shadow of what it used to be, since WW took the controls. Its worse than a B rated horror film.
Willie has a track record of doing this then bailing out... Look at EI and the state they are in now. What about FUTURA? And now BA...
Someone has to stand up (and look down on him) and get this sorted out. He has publicly stated that he will NOT go back on his plans to alter cabin crew 'conditions'. UNITE have also said they will not stop. What now?
The BA management at Waterworld need to sort this out and now.
Change IS needed. Conditions may well change, but its the way you go about doing it. Negotiate NOT dictate...
A new ballot will, Iam sure come back in favour of a strike. Willie must know this. Delaying the inevitable isnt going to help anyone.
Get lost Willie. Rumour has it you are leaving in FEB 2010 anyway. Go now, and let someone with a personality, negotiating skills, and a bit of savvy take over. You have none of the above...
Are you intentionally running BA into the ground, making it a bargain buy for someone else?
Hold on a minute. There are faults on BOTH sides here.
Wee Willie is 'steamrolling' through department after department within BA, with NO regard for the airlines future. First the Regions 3 years ago, then the flightdeck who dully agreed a deal, now cabin crew. Next the engineers (in conjunction with the Iberia 'alliance'), then our friends at Gatwick!
I didnt agree with 12 days of strikes, but I also dont agree with the leaders cavalier attitude. BA is a shadow of what it used to be, since WW took the controls. Its worse than a B rated horror film.
Willie has a track record of doing this then bailing out... Look at EI and the state they are in now. What about FUTURA? And now BA...
Someone has to stand up (and look down on him) and get this sorted out. He has publicly stated that he will NOT go back on his plans to alter cabin crew 'conditions'. UNITE have also said they will not stop. What now?
The BA management at Waterworld need to sort this out and now.
Change IS needed. Conditions may well change, but its the way you go about doing it. Negotiate NOT dictate...
A new ballot will, Iam sure come back in favour of a strike. Willie must know this. Delaying the inevitable isnt going to help anyone.
Get lost Willie. Rumour has it you are leaving in FEB 2010 anyway. Go now, and let someone with a personality, negotiating skills, and a bit of savvy take over. You have none of the above...
Are you intentionally running BA into the ground, making it a bargain buy for someone else?
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If the cabin staff have any sense they will seek forthwith the removal of Malone and her cronies ASAP. She is the chairperson and, therefore, entirely responsible for their actions. BASSA is not in a position any longer to represent the CC's on any level. BASSA has blown it, Simpson has blown it and the minions of the union are not worthy. Unite has shown itself to be useless in allowing the irregularities and the GS should resign.
All the guff from the militants counts for nothing. The ballot was an attempt to rig the result by adding the VR people to the poll. That was unforgivable.
BASSA and Malone have deliberately let down the CC's in an action that should be regarded as treachery and treated as such. That the reps are running scared shows this to be true. BASSA is a dead duck and the sooner it is plucked the better - rather than let it decay and smell more than it does now.
How these union Luddites have the cheek to defend themselves is disgusting. They still live in the past when they should retire and never forget the grave damage they did to the girls and boys that are the cabin staff. Forget those that are reps, they have no regard for you believe me.
As for those who are trying to persuade you to repeat the sickies debacle - forget it. You are better than that and BA doesn't deserve it either.
Good luck.
All the guff from the militants counts for nothing. The ballot was an attempt to rig the result by adding the VR people to the poll. That was unforgivable.
BASSA and Malone have deliberately let down the CC's in an action that should be regarded as treachery and treated as such. That the reps are running scared shows this to be true. BASSA is a dead duck and the sooner it is plucked the better - rather than let it decay and smell more than it does now.
How these union Luddites have the cheek to defend themselves is disgusting. They still live in the past when they should retire and never forget the grave damage they did to the girls and boys that are the cabin staff. Forget those that are reps, they have no regard for you believe me.
As for those who are trying to persuade you to repeat the sickies debacle - forget it. You are better than that and BA doesn't deserve it either.
Good luck.
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Out of curiosity...
what makes you think that the Board is going to ask WW to go now?
He has, with the significant help of the BA CC and its representatives, empowered BA during this time of crisis.
The BA Cabin Crews are now viewed as unreasonable individiuals hindering BA's path to success...and they messed up their own union vote for heaven's sake.
...and you think that BA should be looking for a head to roll??
At the moment I would think he's earning his considerable pay...and the CC's should be questioning the representation of their talent.
He has, with the significant help of the BA CC and its representatives, empowered BA during this time of crisis.
The BA Cabin Crews are now viewed as unreasonable individiuals hindering BA's path to success...and they messed up their own union vote for heaven's sake.
...and you think that BA should be looking for a head to roll??
At the moment I would think he's earning his considerable pay...and the CC's should be questioning the representation of their talent.
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Lets just hope the CC dont slide further down the popularity scale, by calling in sick enmass, or so many hundred at a time, and then vote in favour of a strike... If youre sick, you are sick. Its hard to prove otherwise with 'swineflu' and various other ailments doing the rounds - all of a sudden!
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DIPLOME
Great Post.
The Court saved the Turkeys from an early Christmas, but I bet they're still looking at feet to shoot without realising they are their own.
These would be the same people who said Ryan Air would always be a small airline - if it survived at all.
Are BA CC the last bastion of 1960's style British Unionism, that fortunately was dead and buried here a couple of decades ago?
"12 Days of Christmas" indeed
Who is going to tell them that there really isn't a Santa Claus?
The Court saved the Turkeys from an early Christmas, but I bet they're still looking at feet to shoot without realising they are their own.
These would be the same people who said Ryan Air would always be a small airline - if it survived at all.
Are BA CC the last bastion of 1960's style British Unionism, that fortunately was dead and buried here a couple of decades ago?
"12 Days of Christmas" indeed
Who is going to tell them that there really isn't a Santa Claus?
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Silverstreak wrote:
Excuse me, but BASSA have thrown hissy fits for the last 20 years, and more specifically for all of 2009 and refused to negotiate (or even sit in the same room as a fellow Cabin Crew rep), refused to look at the books, refused to listen to anything the company wishes to present and only now want to negotiate, after the company has polled their members as to what they want/don't want, listened to them, modified proposals accordingly and gone through an ACAS process in Big Brother house and finally run out of options and had to impose a solution to the growing and unaddressed financial problem. The (limited) BASSA offerings much quoted in the press have only also ever been temporary.as well.
I'm sorry SS, but BASSA are totally incompetent and have been hoisted by their own petard, lost the public vote, and if they had competed in X-Factor would have been voted off weeks ago. To even suggest that they can run another ballot is nothing but a face-saving exercise by the senior reps and the prats that run UNTIE - sorry UNITE.
The honest CC members in BA have been hijacked by the political aspirations of Malone and her cronies (the kitchen fitter et al) and the political machinations within the fight for the UNITE leadership campaign of McCluskey.
Look at the recent elevation in union unrest, it all ties back in to the battle for supremacy in UNITE in advance of the retirement of Simpson and Harriet Harman's old man Dormey.
As for McCluskey proudly admitting at Sanddown on Monday that he had been involved in 'many strikes' (see the Youtube video), is that something to be proud of, or does it not just exemplify his inability to negotiate and/or his communist tendency? Has he ever done a proper days work?
As is the common phrase apparently used on CF and BASSA forums, wake up and smell the coffee.
WW..... Negotiate NOT dictate...
I'm sorry SS, but BASSA are totally incompetent and have been hoisted by their own petard, lost the public vote, and if they had competed in X-Factor would have been voted off weeks ago. To even suggest that they can run another ballot is nothing but a face-saving exercise by the senior reps and the prats that run UNTIE - sorry UNITE.
The honest CC members in BA have been hijacked by the political aspirations of Malone and her cronies (the kitchen fitter et al) and the political machinations within the fight for the UNITE leadership campaign of McCluskey.
Look at the recent elevation in union unrest, it all ties back in to the battle for supremacy in UNITE in advance of the retirement of Simpson and Harriet Harman's old man Dormey.
As for McCluskey proudly admitting at Sanddown on Monday that he had been involved in 'many strikes' (see the Youtube video), is that something to be proud of, or does it not just exemplify his inability to negotiate and/or his communist tendency? Has he ever done a proper days work?
As is the common phrase apparently used on CF and BASSA forums, wake up and smell the coffee.
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Here's a thought - now that some posters on the other forums are shrieking about possible bullying from pilots, why doesn't Balpa just get in there first?
The spleen that's been vented towards the sharp end by Bassa acolytes is beyond unpleasant.
The spleen that's been vented towards the sharp end by Bassa acolytes is beyond unpleasant.