British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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plodding along
My point is that reduced complements is probably the least painful way to make the required savings.
I've just returned from a four sector five day longrange trip with hardly a spare seat on any of the sectors. Its an absolute disaster onboard re levels of service which was commented on by ECH's on more than one sector.
What BA will save on the one hand will be lost by the massive exodus of premium pax to other airlines...not my words, just those of one of our top Gold ECH's I spoke to last night.
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Human Factor. You are right. BA cabin crew cannot strike over something that might happen. So what are you talking about?
Any forthcoming industrial action is to do with what has already happened.
Just to pick up on CFC's post above, there are 5 CSD's suspended at the moment for apologising to passengers over the PA for the poor service since the 16th November. I have had a number of Gold and Silver card holders say to me that they are surprised to see the CSD's "pouring wine" whilst there is no Inflight entertainment due to a malfunction.
The product is so bad now for Club passengers that no doubt they will vote with their feet, as the reduction in the crew is the last straw. A Premier passenger who is a CEO of a major British company said to me that he is constantly complaining about the state of the First cabins, scruffy aircraft, old fashioned GMIS IFE, rubbish food and often there is not even a duvet for him or other part of the First product not loaded. And now we hear that BA view all the prem pasengers they have 'made up' as requiring too many resources:ie meeting and greeting etc. Plus many Prem pax get free upgrades like MP's who fly BA.
Of course these passengers never make any comment about the Flight Crew; it is as if they do not exist.
Any forthcoming industrial action is to do with what has already happened.
Just to pick up on CFC's post above, there are 5 CSD's suspended at the moment for apologising to passengers over the PA for the poor service since the 16th November. I have had a number of Gold and Silver card holders say to me that they are surprised to see the CSD's "pouring wine" whilst there is no Inflight entertainment due to a malfunction.
The product is so bad now for Club passengers that no doubt they will vote with their feet, as the reduction in the crew is the last straw. A Premier passenger who is a CEO of a major British company said to me that he is constantly complaining about the state of the First cabins, scruffy aircraft, old fashioned GMIS IFE, rubbish food and often there is not even a duvet for him or other part of the First product not loaded. And now we hear that BA view all the prem pasengers they have 'made up' as requiring too many resources:ie meeting and greeting etc. Plus many Prem pax get free upgrades like MP's who fly BA.
Of course these passengers never make any comment about the Flight Crew; it is as if they do not exist.
Last edited by Fume Event; 6th Dec 2009 at 09:51.
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Dear Mods,
I must express my concern that some of us have been accused of "sloganeering" by FlapsForty and the Vote No (and yes) slogans wiped from our posts. I must also object to the direction to "behave like adults". Campaigning is essentially an adult activity, children would not know how to campaign, and indeed is conducted for the highest forms of office around the world. It is a well-established and accepted procedure around the world and I fail to understand why it should be moderated out.`
To my knowledge it is not against the rules of the Forum, and I would kindly ask that you show some consideration in this matter. I have explained before that this is the only forum where BA Cabin Crew, who do NOT SUPPORT A STRIKE, can air their views. We have been closed out on all other forums by bullies and intimidation. It would be regrettable if we are to be closed out on this forum, when we are arguing our case in an entirely respectable manner.
This strike is extremely serious. If it goes ahead, it could be the demise of our great British Airline, which would result in approximately 50000 people around the globe losing their jobs. On that basis alone, I would ask you to show some understanding for the seriousness at stake here. This thread is managing to reach out to some of the cabin crew who are unsure what to do. It is unbiased and gives both sides of the story. It is essential that we are able to reach out to those people. They need to know that there are people who are voting no, that it is OK to vote no, and a little campaigning may, in some minor way, enable us to sway the vote.
I would urgently ask you to review your decision on this matter.
Yours sincerely
HiFlyer14
I am a member of BA Cabin Crew. The above post contains my personal viewpoint, and not those of BA.
I must express my concern that some of us have been accused of "sloganeering" by FlapsForty and the Vote No (and yes) slogans wiped from our posts. I must also object to the direction to "behave like adults". Campaigning is essentially an adult activity, children would not know how to campaign, and indeed is conducted for the highest forms of office around the world. It is a well-established and accepted procedure around the world and I fail to understand why it should be moderated out.`
To my knowledge it is not against the rules of the Forum, and I would kindly ask that you show some consideration in this matter. I have explained before that this is the only forum where BA Cabin Crew, who do NOT SUPPORT A STRIKE, can air their views. We have been closed out on all other forums by bullies and intimidation. It would be regrettable if we are to be closed out on this forum, when we are arguing our case in an entirely respectable manner.
This strike is extremely serious. If it goes ahead, it could be the demise of our great British Airline, which would result in approximately 50000 people around the globe losing their jobs. On that basis alone, I would ask you to show some understanding for the seriousness at stake here. This thread is managing to reach out to some of the cabin crew who are unsure what to do. It is unbiased and gives both sides of the story. It is essential that we are able to reach out to those people. They need to know that there are people who are voting no, that it is OK to vote no, and a little campaigning may, in some minor way, enable us to sway the vote.
I would urgently ask you to review your decision on this matter.
Yours sincerely
HiFlyer14
I am a member of BA Cabin Crew. The above post contains my personal viewpoint, and not those of BA.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 6th Dec 2009 at 09:55.
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With regard to the argument that the collective agreements form part of our contract, I would argue that it is only the bits that are relevant to the individual, ie. pay, holidays, sick leave, etc. Things that affect us personally. Whether I work with 2 or 10 crew doesn't put me up nor down, whereas my pay, etc does!
Also if collective agreements are contractual, surely that would mean that every time there is a change to the collective agreements, each individual crewmember would have to have personal notification from BA of an ammendment to their contract? And in umpteen years, I have never had one.
The Judge would set a precedent if he were to rule in Unite's favour, which all manner of other companies would be affected by. Somehow, I just can't see it myself.
Also if collective agreements are contractual, surely that would mean that every time there is a change to the collective agreements, each individual crewmember would have to have personal notification from BA of an ammendment to their contract? And in umpteen years, I have never had one.
The Judge would set a precedent if he were to rule in Unite's favour, which all manner of other companies would be affected by. Somehow, I just can't see it myself.
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Hi Flyer.
I do not end every post I make with VOTE YES and the mods are absolutely correct that Flight Crew should not interfere in our dispute anymore than we would have, if you had been allowed to strike over OpenSkies. No doubt cabin crew giving pilots the benefit of their opinion on the matter, would have got short shrift in return.
It is no point pleading that you are BA cabin crew; how does anyone know for sure? On this forum there is a disproportionate number of people who appear intent on attacking BA cabin crew, whose only motivation must be some sort of vested interest or personal obsession. BA will not go bust if there is a strike, but we might just get rid of a CEO who will achieve that end if not removed.
This is not the place for stupid slogans
I do not end every post I make with VOTE YES and the mods are absolutely correct that Flight Crew should not interfere in our dispute anymore than we would have, if you had been allowed to strike over OpenSkies. No doubt cabin crew giving pilots the benefit of their opinion on the matter, would have got short shrift in return.
It is no point pleading that you are BA cabin crew; how does anyone know for sure? On this forum there is a disproportionate number of people who appear intent on attacking BA cabin crew, whose only motivation must be some sort of vested interest or personal obsession. BA will not go bust if there is a strike, but we might just get rid of a CEO who will achieve that end if not removed.
This is not the place for stupid slogans
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Hi Fume,
What about briefing rooms - is that a good place for "stupid slogans" or have you told BASSA reps that too?
The only "stupid" thing in all of this is the ballot, brought about by BASSA's incompetence in negotiation.
What about briefing rooms - is that a good place for "stupid slogans" or have you told BASSA reps that too?
The only "stupid" thing in all of this is the ballot, brought about by BASSA's incompetence in negotiation.
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Hi Flyer. Please try and understand this: there was never going to be a negotiated settlement. Look at Aer Lingus at the moment. Management there have rejected huge cost savings and productivity from IALPA. Why? Because they will IMPOSE new T&C's.
Imposition is union busting. That is what BA wants. Strange that the Board of BA have employed an ex IALPA negotiator to take on this task.
Imposition is union busting. That is what BA wants. Strange that the Board of BA have employed an ex IALPA negotiator to take on this task.
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CFC, look, please stop being ridiculous about the very minor adjustments to company managed staffing levels....every BA staff member has flown on a longhaul sector even if just as a passenger- we have ALL seen with our own eyes what your job entails, how small a percentage of the overall flight-time you actually spend in the cabin/galley working and how it has become standard practice to take bunkrest/breaks that are not rostered by BA.....all this with way more crew members pottering about inboard than lots of other carriers have.... Do you REALLY expect us to believe that taking one crew member off and getting the CSD out of his 'office' to cover the missing crew members work is 'mayhem'? Even on the VERY rare sectors where 2 come off, get real!!!! Your job is not rocket science, but it does take discipline, and motivation.....on all our flights where passenger and crew safety and health are jeopardised by this miniscule change to your Market leading working practices, I put it to you that it is explicitly on account of Your poor discipline and Your poor motivation. No-one else thinks/says it's mayhem, perhaps some retraining and an attitude amelioration? ...it means improvement
Of course these passengers never make any comment about the Flight Crew; it is as if they do not exist.
.... the mods are absolutely correct that Flight Crew should not interfere in our dispute ....
On this forum there is a disproportionate number of people who appear intent on attacking BA cabin crew, whose only motivation must be some sort of vested interest or personal obsession.
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I've done an India trip, full both ways, two crew down, AVOD failures, rude pax. CSD said it went like clockwork. Rest of the crew agreed. As I posted previously, if some CSDs aren't up to the challenge of working with 14 crew on a jumbo they can expect to be performance managed, if necessary back down to Purser to make way for those who can make it work.
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Thanks for the link, Lurker. Anyway, here are the 18 points:
.... in which case, BASSA have potentially made the same mistake as in 2007.
For the benefit of Fume Event, if all 18 grievances are the reason for the ballot, all BA need to do is pick any one of them, reverse the imposition of that particular grievance (for the sake of argument, no. 10) and the ballot becomes invalid as they will have acceded to one of the demands, meaning the union cannot strike over the remainder without a new ballot.
So for clarification, are the above 18 reasons the definitive (published) reasons for the strike?
1. One crew member will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide 747 flights from 16th November 2009.
2. One purser will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide 777 flights from 16th November 2009.
3. One crew member will also be removed from Long range 777 Worldwide routes from 16th November 2009.
4. An additional crew member will also be removed from specified high work load 747 and 777 routes from 16th November 2009. As per agreement reached post September 11th 2001.
5. All worldwide CSD’s will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed crew member, in addition to and with no reduction of their already high workload. This is without any reference to the negotiated job description as defined in the CSD framework.
6. All remaining worldwide crewmembers will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed purser and or main crew position, with no reduction of their already high workload.
7. Eurofleet crew compliments will be unilaterally reduced from 1st December 2009.
8. You are replacing one Purser position with a main crew member on the 777 aircraft at London Gatwick from 1st December 2009.
In addition;
9. You are imposing a two year freeze to base pay and allowances on all cabin crew.
10.You have imposed a 20% reduction in employee food subsidies at both Heathrow and Gatwick.
11.You are reducing transfer and promotion opportunities within all grades and bases within the established crew compliments.
12.You are ending working up payments
13.You are linking long and short haul sectors within the same duty between Gatwick/LCY and JFK via SNN– in breach of the Gatwick Fleet MOA.
14.You are ignoring the maximum planned duty period allowed by the Gatwick Fleet MOA, intentionally misinterpreting the same in order to facilitate the Maldives itinerary.
15.You are unilaterally removing the ability for crew to transfer between Gatwick Fleet and Heathrow Fleet presently available under the Ops and Choice Agreement ratified at NSP
16.You are refusing to recognise and failing to adhere to the IFC- Terms of Reference and other specific agreements. These agreements and terms of reference relate to product development, product changes and crewing levels onboard both long haul and short haul services from Heathrow and Gatwick.
17.You have re-imposed the concept of using part time cabin crew during their unavailable period, without agreement to cover flying duties. This contravenes the agreement reached with the trade unions in the dispute settlement document in 2006/7.
18.You have failed to honour the Dispute Settlement Document of 2006/7, in that there are a number of outstanding items that have not been implemented or addressed by British Airways.
2. One purser will be removed from all Heathrow Worldwide 777 flights from 16th November 2009.
3. One crew member will also be removed from Long range 777 Worldwide routes from 16th November 2009.
4. An additional crew member will also be removed from specified high work load 747 and 777 routes from 16th November 2009. As per agreement reached post September 11th 2001.
5. All worldwide CSD’s will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed crew member, in addition to and with no reduction of their already high workload. This is without any reference to the negotiated job description as defined in the CSD framework.
6. All remaining worldwide crewmembers will be instructed to carry out some of the duties of the removed purser and or main crew position, with no reduction of their already high workload.
7. Eurofleet crew compliments will be unilaterally reduced from 1st December 2009.
8. You are replacing one Purser position with a main crew member on the 777 aircraft at London Gatwick from 1st December 2009.
In addition;
9. You are imposing a two year freeze to base pay and allowances on all cabin crew.
10.You have imposed a 20% reduction in employee food subsidies at both Heathrow and Gatwick.
11.You are reducing transfer and promotion opportunities within all grades and bases within the established crew compliments.
12.You are ending working up payments
13.You are linking long and short haul sectors within the same duty between Gatwick/LCY and JFK via SNN– in breach of the Gatwick Fleet MOA.
14.You are ignoring the maximum planned duty period allowed by the Gatwick Fleet MOA, intentionally misinterpreting the same in order to facilitate the Maldives itinerary.
15.You are unilaterally removing the ability for crew to transfer between Gatwick Fleet and Heathrow Fleet presently available under the Ops and Choice Agreement ratified at NSP
16.You are refusing to recognise and failing to adhere to the IFC- Terms of Reference and other specific agreements. These agreements and terms of reference relate to product development, product changes and crewing levels onboard both long haul and short haul services from Heathrow and Gatwick.
17.You have re-imposed the concept of using part time cabin crew during their unavailable period, without agreement to cover flying duties. This contravenes the agreement reached with the trade unions in the dispute settlement document in 2006/7.
18.You have failed to honour the Dispute Settlement Document of 2006/7, in that there are a number of outstanding items that have not been implemented or addressed by British Airways.
For the benefit of Fume Event, if all 18 grievances are the reason for the ballot, all BA need to do is pick any one of them, reverse the imposition of that particular grievance (for the sake of argument, no. 10) and the ballot becomes invalid as they will have acceded to one of the demands, meaning the union cannot strike over the remainder without a new ballot.
So for clarification, are the above 18 reasons the definitive (published) reasons for the strike?
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I've just returned from a four sector five day longrange trip with hardly a spare seat on any of the sectors. Its an absolute disaster onboard re levels of service which was commented on by ECH's on more than one sector.
Please don't say "middle east back to backs" and removal of telephone allowance, it's nowhere near £140m.
Big pay cut? Fixed links? Reduced MBT? Hourly rate? Reduced leave?
It can't just be a big fat NO again.
What is the plan?
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Hiflyer14
For the umpteenth time
Please read what your contract states about Collective Agreements - specifically the part that says "as amended from time to time"
That negates what you are saying below as they have covered off the need to have a personal notification
Quote from Hifler14
Also if collective agreements are contractual, surely that would mean that every time there is a change to the collective agreements, each individual crewmember would have to have personal notification from BA of an ammendment to their contract? And in umpteen years, I have never had one.
Please read what your contract states about Collective Agreements - specifically the part that says "as amended from time to time"
That negates what you are saying below as they have covered off the need to have a personal notification
Quote from Hifler14
Also if collective agreements are contractual, surely that would mean that every time there is a change to the collective agreements, each individual crewmember would have to have personal notification from BA of an ammendment to their contract? And in umpteen years, I have never had one.
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As I have said before
If you go on strike you must have a reason to come off /cancel strike action.
What is BASSA's reason for stopping strike action?
Perhaps BA are quite happy to replace the crew member they have just taken off - where will BASSA be then?
BA could then impose the other items and bring in new fleet.
Will BASSA then ballot again for strike action?
They could try for another injunction.
The courts may get very fed up with them (and Unite possibly).
Devil's advocate hat on!!!
If you go on strike you must have a reason to come off /cancel strike action.
What is BASSA's reason for stopping strike action?
Perhaps BA are quite happy to replace the crew member they have just taken off - where will BASSA be then?
BA could then impose the other items and bring in new fleet.
Will BASSA then ballot again for strike action?
They could try for another injunction.
The courts may get very fed up with them (and Unite possibly).
Devil's advocate hat on!!!
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CFC, there seem to be some amazing coincidences here. I mean, you just happened to fly with one person who was actually at court, and happened to have the exact same opinion on the result as you do. Remarkable. Your flights always seem to be the ones that are disastrous and as luck has it one of your "top" gold ECHs was on it (how do you determine if they are a "top" or a "bottom" ECH?). And he and the other ECHs commented on it being an absolute disaster, which also, remarkaby coincidentally, reinforces all of your arguments against imposition.
Have you not done a single flight under the new crewing levels that has gone OK?
Now I'm a trusting person, but I think there are others out there that, when we have pax and CC and FD here talking about how it can easily be (and has been already) done without it being a disaster, who might find that this either lacks credibility or that the people providing the service are either not up to scratch or - worse- simply not trying, so they can get those comment cards and wave them around to prove their "point".
BTW I'm with Lurker, no-one gets anywhere by slagging other posters off, and it really says more about the poster than the target. I myself have been admonished when I've let my heart rule my head on here. But I do think it is important to get an accurate assessment.
My flight from BKK-BAH last night would have been more than acceptable with 3 CC for 35 x J class PAX if my LCD screen hadn't looked like a lava lamp screensaver - which mysteriously corrected itself when the aircraft bumped down back in Bahrain!
Thank heavens for laptops....
Have you not done a single flight under the new crewing levels that has gone OK?
Now I'm a trusting person, but I think there are others out there that, when we have pax and CC and FD here talking about how it can easily be (and has been already) done without it being a disaster, who might find that this either lacks credibility or that the people providing the service are either not up to scratch or - worse- simply not trying, so they can get those comment cards and wave them around to prove their "point".
BTW I'm with Lurker, no-one gets anywhere by slagging other posters off, and it really says more about the poster than the target. I myself have been admonished when I've let my heart rule my head on here. But I do think it is important to get an accurate assessment.
My flight from BKK-BAH last night would have been more than acceptable with 3 CC for 35 x J class PAX if my LCD screen hadn't looked like a lava lamp screensaver - which mysteriously corrected itself when the aircraft bumped down back in Bahrain!
Thank heavens for laptops....
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Human Factor
The wording of why we are balloting is very simple and does not include reference to any one particular point.
Unite has called the ballot in response to the company’s determination to force through a package of measures including contractual changes without agreement of the cabin crew and their union.
Unite has called the ballot in response to the company’s determination to force through a package of measures including contractual changes without agreement of the cabin crew and their union.
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HiFlyer
Eh? How do you figure that? So if 90% of those balloted vote, 'No', thats the same as a yes vote, is it?
How you vote in the ballot has nothing to do with breaching your contract.
Whether or not you come to work during any subsequent strike might do though.
If you do not vote at all, you might as well have voted yes, because it is only returned votes that count.
If you vote Yes then you are in breach of your contract, and the company could issue you with a different contract before allowing you back to work.
Whether or not you come to work during any subsequent strike might do though.
Last edited by GearUp CheerUp; 6th Dec 2009 at 12:09.
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Your flights always seem to be the ones that are disastrous and as luck has it one of your "top" gold ECHs was on it (how do you determine if they are a "top" or a "bottom" ECH?).
That said, most CSDs and Pursers I have spoken to haven't a clue what it is.
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You live and learn. Thank you for the quick and concise reply, Lord B. I myself am Gold on GF, but I don't think I have the same "CIV" as other Gold card holders who share the same family name 
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Just to pick up on CFC's post above, there are 5 CSD's suspended at the moment for apologising to passengers over the PA for the poor service since the 16th November. I have had a number of Gold and Silver card holders say to me that they are surprised to see the CSD's "pouring wine" whilst there is no Inflight entertainment due to a malfunction.
Anyone should be able to reset the IFE. I can do it. I reckon it took me best part of 25 seconds to learn how to do it. It's been under the csd's control so far because the controls are in the 'office' and there's not a lot of other prescribed duties for the csd to do on a normal flight.
The reduction in crew is a red herring. I've now flown plenty of sectors with not a single problem reported to me. Not one. Csds are working harder, but the ones I've flown with were organised and had thought things through, resulting in no crew shortfall issues.
A Premier passenger who is a CEO of a major British company said to me that he is constantly complaining about the state of the First cabins, scruffy aircraft, old fashioned GMIS IFE, rubbish food and often there is not even a duvet for him or other part of the First product not loaded. And now we hear that BA view all the prem pasengers they have 'made up' as requiring too many resources:ie meeting and greeting etc. Plus many Prem pax get free upgrades like MP's who fly BA.
I too am not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean to imply that we are invisible to the customer, you might be surprised to know that we get plenty of letters from customers regarding the level of service we have offered them and the difference we made to their travel experience. It's just that we don't shout loudly about these letters of thanks, nor think we are the best pilots in the world as a result.