British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Glamgirl
What you are failing to see is the fact that the Collective Agreements form part of our contract and our terms and conditions of employment. The two are inextricably linked.
Allow me to prove this to you beyond doubt
Nowhere in my contract does it state that I should report for a flight ex LHR 90 minutes before departure - agreed?
However it states in my WW agreement (Section 4.1 ) that I should do so - agreed?
If I persistently failed to report at the prescribed time I would be in trouble - agreed?
If I carried on reporting late I would be disciplined - agreed?
If I did not remedy this behaviour I would ultimately be sacked - agreed?
However nowhere in my contract does it state that I have to report at 90 mins prior to departure does it - agreed?
No it doesn't, it simply states that I am bound by the Collective Agreements which form part of my terms and conditions - it is those Collective Agreements that I would have broken and therefore that would be my breach of contract and that would be how BA would discipline me and ultimately sack me - can you now see how inextricably linked they are?
And it is these Collective Agreements that BA have breached ie Crewing Levels etc And this is the reason why the changes made by BA are indeed contractual.
As for an Individual contract - then no you don't have one. You signed as an individual between yourself and BA, but your contract is the exact same as the many thousands of other Cabin Crew. In employment law an individual contract would be one agreed exclusively between an employer and employee with differing terms and conditions - a simple example would be the type of contract signed by a sports star, or a high-flyer in The City i.e. an individually negotiated contract - these individual contracts more often than not are not allowed to be a part of Collective Agreements
And as for your quote above - I am unsure as to whether you realised it, but you just back up everything I have said!!
179.
Whether agreement intended to be a legally enforceable contract.
— (1) A collective agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract unless the agreement—
(a)
is in writing, and (Our Collective Agreements are in writing)
(b)
contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that the agreement shall be a legally enforceable contract. (It states in the Cabin Crew contract the fact that the CA's are part of the contract)
(2) A collective agreement which does satisfy those conditions shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract. (There you go....)
Allow me to prove this to you beyond doubt
Nowhere in my contract does it state that I should report for a flight ex LHR 90 minutes before departure - agreed?
However it states in my WW agreement (Section 4.1 ) that I should do so - agreed?
If I persistently failed to report at the prescribed time I would be in trouble - agreed?
If I carried on reporting late I would be disciplined - agreed?
If I did not remedy this behaviour I would ultimately be sacked - agreed?
However nowhere in my contract does it state that I have to report at 90 mins prior to departure does it - agreed?
No it doesn't, it simply states that I am bound by the Collective Agreements which form part of my terms and conditions - it is those Collective Agreements that I would have broken and therefore that would be my breach of contract and that would be how BA would discipline me and ultimately sack me - can you now see how inextricably linked they are?
And it is these Collective Agreements that BA have breached ie Crewing Levels etc And this is the reason why the changes made by BA are indeed contractual.
As for an Individual contract - then no you don't have one. You signed as an individual between yourself and BA, but your contract is the exact same as the many thousands of other Cabin Crew. In employment law an individual contract would be one agreed exclusively between an employer and employee with differing terms and conditions - a simple example would be the type of contract signed by a sports star, or a high-flyer in The City i.e. an individually negotiated contract - these individual contracts more often than not are not allowed to be a part of Collective Agreements
And as for your quote above - I am unsure as to whether you realised it, but you just back up everything I have said!!
179.
Whether agreement intended to be a legally enforceable contract.
— (1) A collective agreement shall be conclusively presumed not to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract unless the agreement—
(a)
is in writing, and (Our Collective Agreements are in writing)
(b)
contains a provision which (however expressed) states that the parties intend that the agreement shall be a legally enforceable contract. (It states in the Cabin Crew contract the fact that the CA's are part of the contract)
(2) A collective agreement which does satisfy those conditions shall be conclusively presumed to have been intended by the parties to be a legally enforceable contract. (There you go....)
Last edited by A Lurker; 5th Dec 2009 at 07:23.
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A Lurker, I'm no armchair solicitor/barrister but it does rather beg the question:
if it is as clear as you are spelling out in your posts above, then why did the judge not award BASSA/UNITEs injunction back in November?
Perhaps you can answer that simple question?
if it is as clear as you are spelling out in your posts above, then why did the judge not award BASSA/UNITEs injunction back in November?
Perhaps you can answer that simple question?
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Da Dog
Who knows why the Judge didn't do that - I can only presume he felt that the time allowed would not suffice and that a full court hearing was needed to hear out all of the facts.
Part of the problem now facing BA is the fact that any employee who has had their contract terminated due to them being in breach of the Collective Agreements could face a claim against BA for unfair dismissal as BA are trying to say the Collective Agreements are now non-contractual
Part of the problem now facing BA is the fact that any employee who has had their contract terminated due to them being in breach of the Collective Agreements could face a claim against BA for unfair dismissal as BA are trying to say the Collective Agreements are now non-contractual
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A Lurker you said
Yet you presume to prove your case on here in a few posts? Again if it were that simple the Judge would have found in BASSA/Unites favour within minutes.
....... and there you go again, reporting matters a "fact" when actually they are not "fact"
Could I ask do you have any legal qualifications? A simple yes or no will suffice
I can only presume he felt that the time allowed would not suffice and that a full court hearing was needed to hear out all of the facts.
Part of the problem now facing BA is the fact that any employee who has had their contract terminated due to them being in breach of the Collective Agreements could face a claim against BA for unfair dismissal as BA are trying to say the Collective Agreements are now non-contractual
Could I ask do you have any legal qualifications? A simple yes or no will suffice
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Nope - just a good grasp of my agreements - how can you argue with the above? I have stated (in my opinion quite eloquently) how my Contract and the Collective Agreements are inextricably linked and in my opinion I have given a very realistic example of how the CA's are applied and work in harmony with a 7 page contract of employment
I tried to make it as simple as possible for you and to be honest I am unable to 'dumb it down' any further so my apologies for that
I tried to make it as simple as possible for you and to be honest I am unable to 'dumb it down' any further so my apologies for that
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A quick search on the darkside would explain BA's position to you Lurker. BA say the law states that some agreements are 'apt' for a contract, others are not. They believe that none of the things they are changing are apt for a contract. I'm afraid it's nothing like as clear cut as "My contract refers to agreements, therefore the agreements are contractual". If it were there wouldn't be a court case.
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No apologies needed
Yet you still fail to grasp the concept ,that if contract law were as cut and dried as you are attempting to make out on this forum, then it would have been very easy for the Judge to grant an injunction for BASSA/UNITE
The fact(I can say fact) because it did actually happen, the Judge did not suggests that there is a great deal more to this than at first meets the eye.
Be under no illusion that whoever the Judge finds for in February, the loser will wait the statutory amount of time, and at the last minute appeal, this will not be over in February. The only prediction I am prepared to make is that the only people who will win out of this will be the solicitors/Barristers who are counting the ££££ signs as I type.
Yet you still fail to grasp the concept ,that if contract law were as cut and dried as you are attempting to make out on this forum, then it would have been very easy for the Judge to grant an injunction for BASSA/UNITE
The fact(I can say fact) because it did actually happen, the Judge did not suggests that there is a great deal more to this than at first meets the eye.
Be under no illusion that whoever the Judge finds for in February, the loser will wait the statutory amount of time, and at the last minute appeal, this will not be over in February. The only prediction I am prepared to make is that the only people who will win out of this will be the solicitors/Barristers who are counting the ££££ signs as I type.
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Da Dog
You cannot say fact for what the Judge said or did not say unless you have a transcript of the hearing - if you do have then please can you share it?
Until such time then it isn,t factual now is it?
I have simply stated what my contract says and how the CA's are intrinsically interwoven into my contract
I agree totally DA Dog - Barristers will win big time £££££'s
Until such time then it isn,t factual now is it?
I have simply stated what my contract says and how the CA's are intrinsically interwoven into my contract
I agree totally DA Dog - Barristers will win big time £££££'s
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Morning Carnage
Ah it's almost as if BA wish to choose which part of the previously agreed 'agreements' they now wish to utilise - however the contract of employment does say
"These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements between the Company and the Trade Unions (all known as the Collective Agreements) and the Employment guide contain the terms and conditions of employment as far as applicable to you"
Maybe they should have changed the wording to read "These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements that we want to agree to include....."
"These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements between the Company and the Trade Unions (all known as the Collective Agreements) and the Employment guide contain the terms and conditions of employment as far as applicable to you"
Maybe they should have changed the wording to read "These Agreements together with the Collective Agreements that we want to agree to include....."
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Da Dog
For God's sake man give me more than 3 minutes to reply!!!!!!
Did the Judge grant BASSA/UNITES claim for an injunction against BA?
yes or no??
In answer to your question - No, however the Court and BA’s legal team had no choice but to admit that the primary argument presented by Unite for the alleged of breach of contract is so strong that the secondary issues may not even need to be considered and that BA crew have a legitimate claim against British Airways for breach of contract.
The full trial has been granted, fast tracked and fixed. Rest assured - if BA are not able to successfully rebut the claim - they will be facing substantial costs and be liable to pay for compensation from the date of imposition.
The decision that British Airways were not awarded any costs at the hearing speaks volumes as to the strength of the Cabin Crew case. During the hearing BA also conceded that there are significant issues to be answered by them regarding the alleged breach of contract.
Did the Judge grant BASSA/UNITES claim for an injunction against BA?
yes or no??
In answer to your question - No, however the Court and BA’s legal team had no choice but to admit that the primary argument presented by Unite for the alleged of breach of contract is so strong that the secondary issues may not even need to be considered and that BA crew have a legitimate claim against British Airways for breach of contract.
The full trial has been granted, fast tracked and fixed. Rest assured - if BA are not able to successfully rebut the claim - they will be facing substantial costs and be liable to pay for compensation from the date of imposition.
The decision that British Airways were not awarded any costs at the hearing speaks volumes as to the strength of the Cabin Crew case. During the hearing BA also conceded that there are significant issues to be answered by them regarding the alleged breach of contract.
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Da Dog
Ha ha ha - no probs at all - listen I am one for debate rather than spouting rubbish from the rooftops - this dispute needs a balanced argument
Right off to do the Xmas shopping
Right off to do the Xmas shopping
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The trial wasn't granted and fast tracked at all. Everyone's entitled to their day in court, almost regardless of how ridiculous their claim is. You are getting your case heard in the standard time frame for a contract law case (and a remarkably similar time frame to BALPAs case, which wasn't fast tracked). BA's lawyers are very confident that the whole thing will then be thrown out by the judge. The reports from somebody who actually was in the court (yes, there was a witness curious enough to go there and report back to the pilot community) doesn't paint anything like the picture of confidence you do. Unites evidence consisted of a few tatty 30 year old contracts, and the judge said (yes, he said) he wasn't minded to grant an injunction. The court hearing was agreed mutually between Unite and BA without the judges intervention, so it wasn't granted by the judge either. You'd think Unite would tell you these things!
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Carnage Matey
That's funny because I also knew someone who was there and they told me that the BA attempted to have our case thrown out and costs awarded against the union, and quite clearly they failed on both counts!
BA also conceded that there is a serious issue to be decided on the contractual point, which is a major victory on the part of Unite.
I suppose all will be revealed in February and it is a small victory already that a group of 'unskilled workers' as many on here refer to Cabin Crew as - have managed to get as far as a full hearing unlike other previous high profile collapses by an assumed more intelligent and in their eyes 'never wrong', bunch of bungling amateurs
BA also conceded that there is a serious issue to be decided on the contractual point, which is a major victory on the part of Unite.
I suppose all will be revealed in February and it is a small victory already that a group of 'unskilled workers' as many on here refer to Cabin Crew as - have managed to get as far as a full hearing unlike other previous high profile collapses by an assumed more intelligent and in their eyes 'never wrong', bunch of bungling amateurs
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BA an Airline in crisis?????
British Airways led the FTSE 100 index higher today as hopes of a US economic revival after the non-farm payroll number coincided with an upgrade from Citigroup.
The US broker raised its recommendation on the shares from ‘hold’ to ‘buy’. The airline said yesterday that long haul premium traffic is showing signs of improvement with volumes above the levels of last year and yields improving.
British Airways led the FTSE 100 index higher today as hopes of a US economic revival after the non-farm payroll number coincided with an upgrade from Citigroup.
The US broker raised its recommendation on the shares from ‘hold’ to ‘buy’. The airline said yesterday that long haul premium traffic is showing signs of improvement with volumes above the levels of last year and yields improving.
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I think it is way too premature to say BA is no longer in crisis. It is still set to make another year of record losses, and really all the signs are is that the decline is bottoming out.
Also worth noting that the year on year decline in traffic in November was greater than previous months, suggesting that the CC ballot is having an effect and the damage is being done, regardless of whether any of you strike or not.
Also worth noting that the year on year decline in traffic in November was greater than previous months, suggesting that the CC ballot is having an effect and the damage is being done, regardless of whether any of you strike or not.
Last edited by LD12986; 5th Dec 2009 at 09:23.