British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[IheartMBT]

TOPBUNK

I agree with alot of what you say, but what actually happened in those talks nobody really knows (even though some people on here claim they know 1st hand). I am a BASSA member and donot agree with all of their actions, BUT as a member of a union i donot get to pick and choose which parts i like, but will have to follow the majority or leave.
I am also a BA employee and also donot agree with all they do, again the picking and choosing is not possible.
Both sides could and should try harder to come to an agreement in what at the end or the day will either benefit or harm BOTH sides.
I also feel that the "biggies" eg the disruption agreement are being sidelined at the moment......WHY????? With the winter months here this is the time it needs to be addressed. ( This is one point i dont agree with BASSA on).


Desertia

Yes i will picket. Again i believe very strongly in this and would not have voted yes if i was not willing to back it up with action. And yes i know the concequences.

HUMAN FACTOR


I wasnt able to be at the meeting as i was halfway over the Atlantic at the time, so am not able to comment.
As for new fleet yes it was off the table (infact Mr Francis PROMISED that it would not happen), then it reappeared and we were told there was no other way.This was before any strike ballot was issued.
If they made a u turn on this very important matter why should I believe all the things they are promising now?


MIDMAN

I can only state my opinion. I think that if the imposing goes ahead and BA are not challenged then we might as well rip up all existing agreements, because they will not be worth the paper they are written on. In my opinion the next thing to appear will be the new fleet swiftly followed by a letter to all current crew rendering then "surplus" and off into redeployment we go and 52 weeks later we have no job (or the only option is to join new fleet which for alot of crew is not a possibility financially).
I agree that many of us on the "old" contracts are paid above average, but what about the "new" contracts" they are def not overpaid in anyway, and i have said i would be willing to find a compromise BUT such a huge drop......No.
Alot of people who joined the airline as crew, did this for life.It was a promise of a secure future ( and up until now has always been secure), they have mortgages etc depending on this, they cannot afford to drop their wage so low.
Alot of people state "if you dont like it leave", why should I?? I have always worked hard for this company. I have missed many special moments in life as i was working. (my sons 1st steps.....and that is heart breaking for a mother). Why should i now say " ok no probs guys i will be off then"?

I am one of the most unmilitant people you will ever meet. I do my job and go home (that is where my life is). But this issue has even forced me to sit up and notice. I have read a couple of posts regarding people voting no to IA. Where are these people? I have counted 3 or 4 on this thread but they are not representative of the feeling out there!!! I have never seen crew so worked up and angry before. I think you are mistaken if you think different. (again my opinion).

[Desertia]

In other words, members who do not sign up will not be entitled to the benefit of the outcome if successful.

That isn't made clear either.

The original comment - that the letter could have been clearer - is viable.

Why not say:

"If you sign this letter, you will not be liable for any costs that come from this action".

and/or

"If you do not sign this letter, you will not receive any portion of what is awarded".

Or words to that effect?

The wording of the letter doesn't seem to be very enthusiastic either way.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by IheartMBT

I agree with alot of what you say, but what actually happened in those talks nobody really knows (even though some people on here claim they know 1st hand).

Although Unite/Amicus did publish in their newsletter that BASSA turned up late for meetings and insisted on leaving by 3pm, and BASSA have recently admitted in one of their releases that they wouldn't sit in the same room as the CC89 chairman. I presume you'll accept that those two organisations know what actually happened?

As for new fleet yes it was off the table (infact Mr Francis PROMISED that it would not happen), then it reappeared and we were told there was no other way.This was before any strike ballot was issued.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that BA would still require you to make the savings target if they took new fleet off the table. However it appears BASSA don't want new fleet and don't want to make the savings either. If you won't do it your way then you have to accept BA will do it their way.

If they made a u turn on this very important matter why should I believe all the things they are promising now?

There are breathtakingly simple ways of locking these things down with BA. It would appear BASSA reps do not have the intelligence to achieve that.

[Desertia]

IheartMBT,

Thanks for a candid and enlightening response.

I would like to ask one thing regarding this comment from you, below:

A lot of people who joined the airline as crew, did this for life.

I can understand that this would be the case pre-privatisation, (government careers do seem to be treated this way) but who joins any private company with the expectation of it being "for life"?

I expected to be doing my chosen career "for life", and I am doing so, but to be honest I do it nowadays on two-year rolling contracts (which are common in this part of the world), and I am under no illusion that this might not last until retirement, and I might end up doing it elsewhere.

[JayPee28bpr]

The wording of the letter doesn't seem to be very enthusiastic either way

I agree. However, maybe it cannot be. Like I say, I am not a lawyer, but I suspect Unite has to be careful how it phrases any request to sign up. I would have thought that if it either seeks to coerce support (eg "sign this or we will kick you out of the Union"), or induce it (eg "sign this and you will get pay backdated to the time of imposition"), then BA could attack it and challenge the signatories' motivations for signing.

The letter looks as thought it was drafted by a lawyer. Everything else from the Union quoted on here is full of BA-bashing rhetoric, whereas the letter was very neutral. I just suspect there is a reason for that which is linked to the case itself.

[IheartMBT]

Desertia

I joined BA thinking it was for life (or until I decided to leave), because that was what BA promoted and stood for. When I was recruited I was one of the many "just for a year". Guess what many many years later i am still here.
I actually love the job. And the flexibility this job has given me has ensured that my husband and I ( him through bidding, me through Part time, leave etc),have been able to bring up our children, without outside help. If it goes the BA route than all stability will be lost through flexi rosters.

[Human Factor]

As for new fleet yes it was off the table (infact Mr Francis PROMISED that it would not happen), then it reappeared and we were told there was no other way.This was before any strike ballot was issued.

Ask yourself why it reappeared? Perhaps because BASSA, in accordance with their member's mandate, refused to negotiate on anything else and that was the carrot which they chose to ignore.

If they made a u turn on this very important matter why should I believe all the things they are promising now?

Good question. However, as Carnage says, BA have to make the savings one way or another. If BASSA won't negotiate, BA have no choice but to impose.

Sadly BASSA had their chance.

[Desertia]

IHeartMBT, at risk of repeating a recurring theme throughout this thread, this is something that your union should have been negotiating, instead of adopting an approach of simple, aggressive denial.

[SlideBustle]

IHEARTMBT, you raise some valid points. Alot of crew are angry that Mr Francis introduced New Fleet, then took it off saying we won't hjave that as you told us, then her reintroduced it but to say he made a u-turn is simplistic really.

THe first proposal was Columbus ie. New fleet they also had a wish list which they could pick and choose for us (new crew complements, slight changes to our current agreements etc) BA removed this from the proposal and took up BASSAs offer of an intergrated approach for a new contract for both new recruits and also current crew who want to go for promotions on current fleets and any transfers. To enable them to take new fleet off the table and introduce the intergrated approach, they had to change a lot of things on our fleets like new crew complements, change the finish time for last day on Eurofleet, single nighstops on WW even on long range (!!!!) one less day off on Eurofleet, new disruption agreement etc etc. BASSA did not want this (stating this was WORSE than new fleet as we would be new fleet ) a show of hands then stated no to negotations of permanent savings. Then a failure to agree, meetings where we don;t know the full story yet, BASSA say BA refused to negotiate, BA/Amicus say BASSA refused etc etc.... so after 9 months BA had to stop the money so new crew complements and then new fleet.

Either way we are probably to have a new fleet unless BASSA engage with BA stop saying no and recognise that if we are not to have a new fleet some things on the current fleet will change as per their proposal in July. I didn't agree with all of BAs proposal but it could be negotiated surely?? Rather than saying no no no!

[IheartMBT]

I have already stated that i dont believe BASSA acted correctly at all times. BUT as a member of a union I have no choice as to accept (and hope) that they are acting in my best interests(except to leave).
But these reps are cabin crew, whatever they achieve(or not) will apply to themselves too. So this is why I am backing this.
If I dont back them then I may aswell sign up for New fleet straight away and enjoy my new fexi rosters and pay.

[IheartMBT]

SlideBustle.
I agree with most of your post. We will never know what happened during those months of negotiations
Let me say again what i feel.
I would have agreed to the crew reductions as part of the cost saving measures. The problem is BA imposed it. Imposition cannot work.
I have competed 2 flights since the 16th, both on the 747. On both flights I worked on the upperdeck ( us pursers are allowed back up their till jan!!!). The problem I have is not being a crew member short, its which crew member has been removed. At present we have the most junior crew member incharge of the club galley ( as this since imposition is nolonger a purser position and the last position to be taken). They are in way above their heads. I have spent most of these flights up and down those stairs trying to support the crew members who were getting a bashing from both crew and pax for not being organised enough. The upperdeck purser is nolonger there in Jan. Then what? Again the pax are suffering when there is really no need, take the 1st purser off instead and let the csd work there. The club cabin is the hardest to work and the most profitable, it doesnt take a genius to work out that that is where a strong team is needed, not the most junior crew and a csd who prob hasnt seen a trolley in the last 30 years.
As they say its not rocket science!!!!

[KitKat747]

Can someone explain why Bassa have balloted for industrial action now when a court case has been arranged by them to settle the dispute in 6 weeks time?

This seems totally illogical action especially when they know they might spoil the Christmas holidays for BA's customers.

Reading between the lines of post made by some cabin crew it appears very obvious to anyone that the New Fleet is what is really worrying them. Addionally they know they cannot stop it unless Mr Walsh agrees to remove it with the impositions that have been imposed and then start again with a clean sheet of paper.

The million dollar question is if Mr Walsh removed the New Fleet and impositions (which is almost certain they he will not) what would Bassa actually be prepared to agree to towards making the required savings?

Their track record in negotiating is very poor which no doubt the judge will know about on 1 February. In all negotiations each side has to give and take, if that cannot be achieved then BA would have to make the impositions, how else could the saving be made?

For the crew who say they would rather see BA go bankrupt than contribute towards savings in the form of new T & C's and see 30,000 other employees who have already made savings in their departments end up on the dole queue is unbeleivable, especially under the current financial circumstances the entire country in experiencing.

If they want this to happen no doubt those that have voted YES will be prepared to strike, or will it be another repeat performance of the 1997 strike when only about 300 or so actually had the balls to strike, the rest went sick?

My opinion is Bassa are treading on very thin ice by hoping to strike when court action to resolve the issue is just a few weeks away.

The only two cabin crew I know personally seem to be a little unsure what they are voting YES for, all they could comment on was the New Fleet. One of them said working with one less crew was not a problem with a bit of efficiency in the cabin.

[fincastle84]

Can someone explain why Bassa have balloted for industrial action now when a court case has been arranged by them to settle the dispute in 6 weeks time?

This seems totally illogical action especially when they know they might spoil the Christmas holidays for BA's customers.

I assume that by threatening industrial action, Bassa expect to strengthen their weak bargaining position.

As for we pax, Bassa don't give a damn. However, once we have migrated to the competition, they might suddenly find a shortage of funds to pay their excellent salaries.

[Desertia]

IheartMBT

I would have agreed to the crew reductions as part of the cost saving measures. The problem is BA imposed it. Imposition cannot work.

This is quite hard to comprehend. Your union failed to represent you and negotiate this measure - for a period of 9 months - and BA were therefore compelled to impose it, because their liquidity depended on it.

And the problem is not Union intransigence, but BA's imposition?

As for your question about whatever BASSA reps achieve would apply to them to, perhaps you answered your own question as to why they would not negotiate crew reductions when you said:

a csd who prob hasnt seen a trolley in the last 30 years.

And then inadvertently followed it with:

As they say its not rocket science!!!!

Q.E.D.

It is so disheartening to hear that you object to imposition, but you don't object to the self-serving BASSA reps that put you and BA in that position.

I almost get the impression that BASSA members see their leaders as their own kind, fighting the big nasty corporate enemy.

But sadly this is not Erin Brockovich. It is much more "I'm alright, Jack".

[wiggy]

KitKat

As I see it the court case addresses just one issue ( manning levels and imposition thereof), the Ballot is about imposition of a whole raft of changes.....e.g. winning the Court Case would not stop New Fleet....I think...

[IheartMBT]

Desertia
AGAIN and i am repeating myself here. I have not said that i think BASSA always get it right. But I have been paying a union to represent me and I hope that they have mine and their best interests at heart.
I know for sure BA dont.
We will all just have to be patient and wait to see what happens in the next few weeks.

[IheartMBT]

FINCASTLE.
You state that you are one of our regular club class pax. If this is correct then you will see that nobody is leaving in droves. It has been weeks since I have seen a spare seat in club.
Also i am sure I read an earlier post from you stating that you would be flying BA at xmas to capetown. Have you canx your flight??? Or rebooked on another airline?

[Carnage Matey!]

And what if your union don't have your best interests at heart? What then? Is the penny beginning to drop?

[IheartMBT]

Carnage Matey

Why would they not have my best interests at heart. They are in the same boat as i am.
Is the penny now dropping for you?????

[winstonsmith]

If BASSA cared about you - they never would have put you in this situation - they would have found a solution instead!