British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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The latest crazy missive form BASSA:
Poor old lalalady seems a bit confused. Let me help you love. Asset Protection are the department that tries to prevent people stealing from BA, they aren't there to spy on BASSA dear. And the 'crimes' your members committed on the company forum were threatening other people with violence. Did you really think BA would sit back and let you distribute your 'facts' and propaganda to your members without taking action in the run up to a dispute? Sticker ownership isn't a crime. Pasting the stickers all over BA property is.
It would seem to me that far from BA being terrified it's the BASSA junta running scared. BA have derailed the propaganda machine they use to control their members and people are asking to start difficult questions. The threats BASSA use have been deprived of a forum. Crew members themselves are starting to report threatening behaviour downroute in 'private debates and conversations'. Where's the solidarity gone? This isn't how it was supposed to be.
BASSA > Latest News
THE TRUE COLOURS OF BA
Nov 14th, 2009 by admin
True colours.
Bill Francis has a tactic and it’s a different approach from his predecessors; he wants you to love him, not literally as in “lets date and meet each others’ parents” but in the way he believes that you should love him for all the sterling work he is doing for “current crew “ and of course, our customers.
The reality is somewhat different; beneath the superficial veneer that his department has temporarily adopted, the “we’re the good guys and we’re listening ” approach, which now includes your manager ringing you at home for a friendly chat “hey, we’re not telling you how to vote, it’s up to you”
The reality is that a far more hard-line and sinister approach lurks just beneath the surface.
The truth is that they are desperate to tell you exactly how to vote.
All those who have a different opinion are now routinely suppressed. It is strongly rumoured that all the CrewForums are monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, by a dedicated team of three people based in Waterside; every comment is passed on to the leadership team and analysed. Further teams of up to six people from a shadowy department known as Asset Protection are dedicated to monitoring “union activity” and individual reps for any information that could be used to damage the union and undermine the ballot.
Seem like the far-fetched stuff of novels? Well it isn’t; it’s happening right now, today in Waterside, in the head quarters of a blue chip company - and it’s quite a daunting prospect.
Why all of this effort to suppress opinion in a ballot in which they are supposedly “not telling you which way to vote”. There is an awful lot at stake for some of these people if they lose and they know it; so they want to win and win by what ever means are necessary; if that involves a few “dirty tricks” along the way, then it’s a price worth paying.
The mask hasn’t has yet slipped completely but it is, nonetheless slipping.
British Airways’ own CrewForum has been “updated” - it does not take much imagination to work out why! They didn’t like what they were reading from crew so they simply shut it down.
Colleagues that posted on it have been suspended and unbelievably are facing charges of gross misconduct, which could lead to their dismissal, for the “crime” of stating an opinion.
Crew who post on any CrewForum under their own name are being routinely stripped from their rosters and called in for a management “chat”.
Crew members who have had private debates or conversations in bars while down route have also found themselves hauled into the office for a grilling over their “attitude” towards the company.
On an almost daily basis, UNITE joint General Secretaries receive threatening letters from British Airways’ legal counsel to try and suppress information that the union wishes to communicate to you, our members.
Yesterday, you were emailed a link to a letter from British Airways new head of industrial relations, who clearly stated their intention to discipline anybody found guilty of supporting their union, even going so far as to threaten criminal charges against them for the heinous crime of “sticker ownership”.
Your reps have once again been threatened with dismissal if they are found giving you information that may affect how you may vote in next week’s ballot.
Every communication we now send you has to be censored and scrutinised by our unions’ Queens Counsel, to avoid giving any possible grounds - no matter how tenuous - to British Airways to try and injunct and suppress our legitimate and legal ballot.
We are unable to tell you everything that is going on and could happen SO PLEASE, READ BETWEEN THE LINES and spread the word that they cannot suppress word of mouth.
Far from giving you the facts to enable you to vote, they are terrified of it and will go to quite frightening lengths to influence your vote.
At the moment you have power and it’s called a vote; it is the one thing that all dictators are frightened of, and we can only urge you to use it wisely.
Yet that power will only last until your vote is cast; once that has happened, in their mind, you will simply revert to being just another overpaid, moaning crew member, that could easily be replaced by somebody cheaper.
The charm offensive will be over and you will see their true colours.
It’s your vote; use it as you choose but make sure you don’t regret it in the years to come.
THE TRUE COLOURS OF BA
Nov 14th, 2009 by admin
True colours.
Bill Francis has a tactic and it’s a different approach from his predecessors; he wants you to love him, not literally as in “lets date and meet each others’ parents” but in the way he believes that you should love him for all the sterling work he is doing for “current crew “ and of course, our customers.
The reality is somewhat different; beneath the superficial veneer that his department has temporarily adopted, the “we’re the good guys and we’re listening ” approach, which now includes your manager ringing you at home for a friendly chat “hey, we’re not telling you how to vote, it’s up to you”
The reality is that a far more hard-line and sinister approach lurks just beneath the surface.
The truth is that they are desperate to tell you exactly how to vote.
All those who have a different opinion are now routinely suppressed. It is strongly rumoured that all the CrewForums are monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, by a dedicated team of three people based in Waterside; every comment is passed on to the leadership team and analysed. Further teams of up to six people from a shadowy department known as Asset Protection are dedicated to monitoring “union activity” and individual reps for any information that could be used to damage the union and undermine the ballot.
Seem like the far-fetched stuff of novels? Well it isn’t; it’s happening right now, today in Waterside, in the head quarters of a blue chip company - and it’s quite a daunting prospect.
Why all of this effort to suppress opinion in a ballot in which they are supposedly “not telling you which way to vote”. There is an awful lot at stake for some of these people if they lose and they know it; so they want to win and win by what ever means are necessary; if that involves a few “dirty tricks” along the way, then it’s a price worth paying.
The mask hasn’t has yet slipped completely but it is, nonetheless slipping.
British Airways’ own CrewForum has been “updated” - it does not take much imagination to work out why! They didn’t like what they were reading from crew so they simply shut it down.
Colleagues that posted on it have been suspended and unbelievably are facing charges of gross misconduct, which could lead to their dismissal, for the “crime” of stating an opinion.
Crew who post on any CrewForum under their own name are being routinely stripped from their rosters and called in for a management “chat”.
Crew members who have had private debates or conversations in bars while down route have also found themselves hauled into the office for a grilling over their “attitude” towards the company.
On an almost daily basis, UNITE joint General Secretaries receive threatening letters from British Airways’ legal counsel to try and suppress information that the union wishes to communicate to you, our members.
Yesterday, you were emailed a link to a letter from British Airways new head of industrial relations, who clearly stated their intention to discipline anybody found guilty of supporting their union, even going so far as to threaten criminal charges against them for the heinous crime of “sticker ownership”.
Your reps have once again been threatened with dismissal if they are found giving you information that may affect how you may vote in next week’s ballot.
Every communication we now send you has to be censored and scrutinised by our unions’ Queens Counsel, to avoid giving any possible grounds - no matter how tenuous - to British Airways to try and injunct and suppress our legitimate and legal ballot.
We are unable to tell you everything that is going on and could happen SO PLEASE, READ BETWEEN THE LINES and spread the word that they cannot suppress word of mouth.
Far from giving you the facts to enable you to vote, they are terrified of it and will go to quite frightening lengths to influence your vote.
At the moment you have power and it’s called a vote; it is the one thing that all dictators are frightened of, and we can only urge you to use it wisely.
Yet that power will only last until your vote is cast; once that has happened, in their mind, you will simply revert to being just another overpaid, moaning crew member, that could easily be replaced by somebody cheaper.
The charm offensive will be over and you will see their true colours.
It’s your vote; use it as you choose but make sure you don’t regret it in the years to come.
It would seem to me that far from BA being terrified it's the BASSA junta running scared. BA have derailed the propaganda machine they use to control their members and people are asking to start difficult questions. The threats BASSA use have been deprived of a forum. Crew members themselves are starting to report threatening behaviour downroute in 'private debates and conversations'. Where's the solidarity gone? This isn't how it was supposed to be.
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BA is not scared! Why should they be scared? Speaking from experience, which they probably are, and looking at the last strike almost two years ago. Wait, I forgot! It never took place, did it? 98% of the members voted in favour of one but it was not carried out! Such a sense of devotion to BASSA would you say?
To those of you considering to hang around the picket line, here are a few tips and generous as I am, I will be giving them to you for free:
1. Get a good night sleep (I understand you will be nervous but please try...) because you've got a long fight ahead of you.
2. Curtain up with warm clothes because it's going to be a very cold and long day. Why is day written in singular you may be asking. Because I doubt you will get your backside the day after when you realise it won't do any good.
3. Make a really nice and creamy soup and shove it down a thermos to enjoy in the snowy weather.
4. Bring with your own blanket for "crew rest" which you probably will be craving for because you couldn't possibly stand there for eight hours without one. BA ain't giving you a blanket!
5. Don't forget before heading off to the picket line to decide, after seniority of course, which ones will be on 1st and 2nd breaks.
6. Enjoy the view of the BA aircraft leaving crewed with crew from both LGW and LHR who have a bit of sense behind their forehead and not supporting a strike but sensible and mature negotations.
7. To the commuting crew standing at the line, think about how expensive it will for you having to buy full fare tickets for a year to get to and from work. When you get home in the evening, log onto Gumtree and see if you can find a pad in London to stay in for a year to get to and from your job. Well, if you've got one after the strike is over that is.
8. Think about the opening hours for the JobCentre Plus because you, or any of your colleagues, might have to go there to get a new job. Wish yourself or your colleagues good luck because in this climate it won't be easy to find a new one. Having to explain why you lost your job at BA won't do any good either.
9. Take a calculator with you and do a bit of math to see how much penalty for IFCE will be. £140 million plus the cost of the strike? Not a very nice figure, is it?
10. How many other crew are on strike? Are we the only ones? You definitely will be asking yourself that! Not knowing is terrible.
11. After a bit of shivering outside, think about how all of this could have been avoided if your devoted BASSA had acted responsibly and not rushed out of the room or refused to turn up on set dates or denying the fact that there is an ongoing worldwide recession and financial crisis.
These tips are valuable to you and feel free to pass them around without my permission.
Whom to blame? Miss Malone and her brigade of course. If she drags her backside to the picket line, demand her to explain honestly why it has gone as far as this. Tell her not to answer with the usual BASSA crap which has been floating about far too long.
Good luck!
(If it goes to a strike that is...)
To those of you considering to hang around the picket line, here are a few tips and generous as I am, I will be giving them to you for free:
1. Get a good night sleep (I understand you will be nervous but please try...) because you've got a long fight ahead of you.
2. Curtain up with warm clothes because it's going to be a very cold and long day. Why is day written in singular you may be asking. Because I doubt you will get your backside the day after when you realise it won't do any good.
3. Make a really nice and creamy soup and shove it down a thermos to enjoy in the snowy weather.
4. Bring with your own blanket for "crew rest" which you probably will be craving for because you couldn't possibly stand there for eight hours without one. BA ain't giving you a blanket!
5. Don't forget before heading off to the picket line to decide, after seniority of course, which ones will be on 1st and 2nd breaks.
6. Enjoy the view of the BA aircraft leaving crewed with crew from both LGW and LHR who have a bit of sense behind their forehead and not supporting a strike but sensible and mature negotations.
7. To the commuting crew standing at the line, think about how expensive it will for you having to buy full fare tickets for a year to get to and from work. When you get home in the evening, log onto Gumtree and see if you can find a pad in London to stay in for a year to get to and from your job. Well, if you've got one after the strike is over that is.
8. Think about the opening hours for the JobCentre Plus because you, or any of your colleagues, might have to go there to get a new job. Wish yourself or your colleagues good luck because in this climate it won't be easy to find a new one. Having to explain why you lost your job at BA won't do any good either.
9. Take a calculator with you and do a bit of math to see how much penalty for IFCE will be. £140 million plus the cost of the strike? Not a very nice figure, is it?
10. How many other crew are on strike? Are we the only ones? You definitely will be asking yourself that! Not knowing is terrible.
11. After a bit of shivering outside, think about how all of this could have been avoided if your devoted BASSA had acted responsibly and not rushed out of the room or refused to turn up on set dates or denying the fact that there is an ongoing worldwide recession and financial crisis.
These tips are valuable to you and feel free to pass them around without my permission.
Whom to blame? Miss Malone and her brigade of course. If she drags her backside to the picket line, demand her to explain honestly why it has gone as far as this. Tell her not to answer with the usual BASSA crap which has been floating about far too long.
Good luck!
(If it goes to a strike that is...)
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CM - Sorry I think you will find you are incorrect in what the role of asset protection is. I speak from personal experience. They are not just about "preventing employees" from stealing from British Airways. 
cheerful pessimist
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Fume Event:
(I am not directly involved in aviation.)
In 2007 three days before strikes were due to start BA started to wind down the network.
This time it could be more interesting.
Scenario 1:
Ballot says YES
Strike Day announced.
To be fair to the passengers Mr Walsh announces that three days before the strike the Network will be wound down.
Lots of miffed off passengers (yet again). Even more people who will never fly BA again, but there will still be a few of them who will turn up at the terminals and will then look for the nearest microphone to vent their anger into - along with pictures of wrapped presents and angelic kids etc.
The crew are on strike but this will break down within a day or two. Why? Because you aren't miners and all the tradition and community values that goes with being one. The core cabin crew union member really doesn't have the stomach for a fight. They want to say to BA that they are not happy, hence some will vote 'Yes', however they are not unhappy enough to stick it out for the long-haul and really put their money where their mouth is. This is not the days of closed union shops and there are alternative suppliers for your customers to go to for the rest of the year and the average member knows this. A BA strike won't mean every kid round the country doing their homework by candlelight three days a week, as with other strikes in the '70s, it will simply p people off who have bought tickets, to say CPT, and will justify/re-enforce (sp) the decision making of others who booked with rival carriers. The end result is fewer people booking with BA again, thus making any eventual salary/allowance cuts / crew number changes larger than they would have been.
In the '80s the average strike in Britain lasted 11 days and the average worker 'won' an extra 0.3% gain at the end compared to what they were being offered before they went on strike. However it then took them a further 30 years of work for this extra gain to make up the income they lost through going on strike. In practice most never got it back. (source: LSE via the Guardian). I can see a similar scenario here. You will never get your lost income back.
BA will also have lost several tonnes of money that they will never ever get back. (From their customers that is.)
Scenario 2:
As above except BA keep the planes flying as Mr Walsh bets that the strike won't last long, (even if it doesn't happen over Christmas).
There will then be the symbolism that BA is trying to do its best for the passengers against the 'terrible' crew who want to spoil everyone's Christmas. It will be difficult to accommodate passengers on other airlines anyway, so why not keep running?
Yes, there will be passengers from the flights that are cancelled talking into the microphones, but they will not be venting solely against BA, they will also vent against the crew and their 'pathetic' reason for striking. BA will come off looking like angels in comparison. Especially when the red, white and blue tails that do fly are shown going over the top of the picket lines. (Will other unions support you by actively or passively telling their members not to do their jobs and thus stopping all the planes flying - or will they worry about being slapped with damages claims themselves?)
The cabin crew unions will see this flying business as provocation and the hotheads will wail and gnash their teeth, but the core union member will see this as a sign that BA really do mean business and that they should get back to work as soon as possible and thus the strike will collapse very quickly - if it even starts.
Thus BA will still be flying and may lose less money in the long-term.
(My personal bet is that there will not be a strike.)
The industry that I am in has had to come to terms with a changing market place, overmanning and a strong union closed shop. The problem is that the necessary changes weren't managed and negotiated, as people wanted to protect what they had - fair enough. However this was unsustainable and instead of really accepting the need for change and negotiating it the collapse has gone too far the other way. Outsourcing to non-union companies has become the norm. There was even a strike at one company that was seen as symbolic for the whole industry, but after that folded, for the same reasons that this proposed one will, there was no further resistance to the inevitable. The result of these changes is dreadful both financially and in terms of a career for new entrants. (I have had salary decreases each year since 2001.) I just see all the same signs for the prospects of the cabin crew at BA.
Overpaid compared to the industry average and to the income that the employer is generating both now and in the future > employer now has no choice but to make serious changes > current employees worried about the potential changes to their incomes vote for strike, even if the ballot paper has totally different wording > strike collapses > salaries and terms and conditions collapse with no further stomach for a fight from the workers. Current employees will have to change their lifestyles or leave and try to achieve the same via other industries. Replacement employees don't miss what they never had.
As in my industry the good times for the crew will never come back. Rivals, Air Passenger Duty, increases in the oil price, the pension hole, customers getting used to paying less and avoiding BA as it is far far too strike threatened will see to this.
So far it has taken thirteen years for my industry to get back to the peak. I don't see it as even half-way there and it never will get there.
Crew salaries will migrate down to a level that the company can manage to fill all the vacancies at. This may even be lower than the current industry average. (Remember that when a large above industry level payer drops its salaries then so the industry average drops. Thus encouraging others to drop or freeze their rates of pay thus tending to lower the average again until it tends to meet the equivalent commandable salary in the real world. Ok so some of the economics might be dodgy but you probably get the idea.)
Some people will say that the unions will be to blame by not negotiating the downward path better. However when BASSA did offer a 2.5% salary cut the membership were up in arms, especially as they thought they weren't consulted. That is the problem, the necessary and eventual cuts are now far too much for a union to be able to negotiate down to. They can only be achieved by being imposed directly and sadly they will be imposed, either via new terms and conditions or through freezing out existing employees. High earners will be targeted by the company and will be frozen out of trips until they resign or accept new terms and conditions. For example look at the way that some CSDs on here are getting little work. Not all, but enough of them will either sign up for the new lower conditions or will choose to leave.
Is this right or fair? Those currently employed will say no as they have set up their lifestyles based on a certain income. However the problem is that current crew salaries and practices are unsustainable for BA and it is not a family firm.
The stories of the potential effects on some people here are very touching and I feel for those involved.
However I just see all the same signs on the wall as started to happen to me fourteen years ago. Change will happen. It is simply a matter of how you personally manage the changes on the way downhill and what other marketable skills you can obtain for yourselves in the interim. Thus allowing you to obtain your desired salary in the outside world, should this be higher than that achievable at BA in the years to come.
My best wishes go out to all concerned and apologies for the length of the post.
There is no way that the airline could be shut down for a week just to push Walsh's agenda, and all over Christmas and the New Year as well.
In 2007 three days before strikes were due to start BA started to wind down the network.
This time it could be more interesting.
Scenario 1:
Ballot says YES
Strike Day announced.
To be fair to the passengers Mr Walsh announces that three days before the strike the Network will be wound down.
Lots of miffed off passengers (yet again). Even more people who will never fly BA again, but there will still be a few of them who will turn up at the terminals and will then look for the nearest microphone to vent their anger into - along with pictures of wrapped presents and angelic kids etc.
The crew are on strike but this will break down within a day or two. Why? Because you aren't miners and all the tradition and community values that goes with being one. The core cabin crew union member really doesn't have the stomach for a fight. They want to say to BA that they are not happy, hence some will vote 'Yes', however they are not unhappy enough to stick it out for the long-haul and really put their money where their mouth is. This is not the days of closed union shops and there are alternative suppliers for your customers to go to for the rest of the year and the average member knows this. A BA strike won't mean every kid round the country doing their homework by candlelight three days a week, as with other strikes in the '70s, it will simply p people off who have bought tickets, to say CPT, and will justify/re-enforce (sp) the decision making of others who booked with rival carriers. The end result is fewer people booking with BA again, thus making any eventual salary/allowance cuts / crew number changes larger than they would have been.
In the '80s the average strike in Britain lasted 11 days and the average worker 'won' an extra 0.3% gain at the end compared to what they were being offered before they went on strike. However it then took them a further 30 years of work for this extra gain to make up the income they lost through going on strike. In practice most never got it back. (source: LSE via the Guardian). I can see a similar scenario here. You will never get your lost income back.
BA will also have lost several tonnes of money that they will never ever get back. (From their customers that is.)
Scenario 2:
As above except BA keep the planes flying as Mr Walsh bets that the strike won't last long, (even if it doesn't happen over Christmas).
There will then be the symbolism that BA is trying to do its best for the passengers against the 'terrible' crew who want to spoil everyone's Christmas. It will be difficult to accommodate passengers on other airlines anyway, so why not keep running?
Yes, there will be passengers from the flights that are cancelled talking into the microphones, but they will not be venting solely against BA, they will also vent against the crew and their 'pathetic' reason for striking. BA will come off looking like angels in comparison. Especially when the red, white and blue tails that do fly are shown going over the top of the picket lines. (Will other unions support you by actively or passively telling their members not to do their jobs and thus stopping all the planes flying - or will they worry about being slapped with damages claims themselves?)
The cabin crew unions will see this flying business as provocation and the hotheads will wail and gnash their teeth, but the core union member will see this as a sign that BA really do mean business and that they should get back to work as soon as possible and thus the strike will collapse very quickly - if it even starts.
Thus BA will still be flying and may lose less money in the long-term.
(My personal bet is that there will not be a strike.)
The industry that I am in has had to come to terms with a changing market place, overmanning and a strong union closed shop. The problem is that the necessary changes weren't managed and negotiated, as people wanted to protect what they had - fair enough. However this was unsustainable and instead of really accepting the need for change and negotiating it the collapse has gone too far the other way. Outsourcing to non-union companies has become the norm. There was even a strike at one company that was seen as symbolic for the whole industry, but after that folded, for the same reasons that this proposed one will, there was no further resistance to the inevitable. The result of these changes is dreadful both financially and in terms of a career for new entrants. (I have had salary decreases each year since 2001.) I just see all the same signs for the prospects of the cabin crew at BA.
Overpaid compared to the industry average and to the income that the employer is generating both now and in the future > employer now has no choice but to make serious changes > current employees worried about the potential changes to their incomes vote for strike, even if the ballot paper has totally different wording > strike collapses > salaries and terms and conditions collapse with no further stomach for a fight from the workers. Current employees will have to change their lifestyles or leave and try to achieve the same via other industries. Replacement employees don't miss what they never had.
As in my industry the good times for the crew will never come back. Rivals, Air Passenger Duty, increases in the oil price, the pension hole, customers getting used to paying less and avoiding BA as it is far far too strike threatened will see to this.
So far it has taken thirteen years for my industry to get back to the peak. I don't see it as even half-way there and it never will get there.
Crew salaries will migrate down to a level that the company can manage to fill all the vacancies at. This may even be lower than the current industry average. (Remember that when a large above industry level payer drops its salaries then so the industry average drops. Thus encouraging others to drop or freeze their rates of pay thus tending to lower the average again until it tends to meet the equivalent commandable salary in the real world. Ok so some of the economics might be dodgy but you probably get the idea.)
Some people will say that the unions will be to blame by not negotiating the downward path better. However when BASSA did offer a 2.5% salary cut the membership were up in arms, especially as they thought they weren't consulted. That is the problem, the necessary and eventual cuts are now far too much for a union to be able to negotiate down to. They can only be achieved by being imposed directly and sadly they will be imposed, either via new terms and conditions or through freezing out existing employees. High earners will be targeted by the company and will be frozen out of trips until they resign or accept new terms and conditions. For example look at the way that some CSDs on here are getting little work. Not all, but enough of them will either sign up for the new lower conditions or will choose to leave.
Is this right or fair? Those currently employed will say no as they have set up their lifestyles based on a certain income. However the problem is that current crew salaries and practices are unsustainable for BA and it is not a family firm.
The stories of the potential effects on some people here are very touching and I feel for those involved.
However I just see all the same signs on the wall as started to happen to me fourteen years ago. Change will happen. It is simply a matter of how you personally manage the changes on the way downhill and what other marketable skills you can obtain for yourselves in the interim. Thus allowing you to obtain your desired salary in the outside world, should this be higher than that achievable at BA in the years to come.
My best wishes go out to all concerned and apologies for the length of the post.
Last edited by eticket; 14th Nov 2009 at 22:43. Reason: typo of course
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Ooops
Hi Ten West
Just to let you know that the MAN base closed some time back so if you've enjoyed any flights from there you have done so with our lovely crew from LHR - like to change your mind?
Also, the reason that you won't be able to have a Tomato juice is that BA have removed it from the bar for ordinary mortals on domestic flights and in the back cabin in Europe- nothing to do with the crew being infantile, pathetic, etc. Just can't hand out what we don't have and BA clearly don't think you'll mind! Finally, the last few rows on a NCL or any other short flight might not get served if we run out of time with minimum crew. Happens occasionally now but more likely with 3 crew instead of 5! Again, NOT the crew being mean, spiteful, childish but worried they may have to disappoint some of our already upset customers. Hope you continue to fly with us and be sure to let BA know if you are in anyway unhappy with the service you receive.
Regards Ottergirl
Just to let you know that the MAN base closed some time back so if you've enjoyed any flights from there you have done so with our lovely crew from LHR - like to change your mind?
Also, the reason that you won't be able to have a Tomato juice is that BA have removed it from the bar for ordinary mortals on domestic flights and in the back cabin in Europe- nothing to do with the crew being infantile, pathetic, etc. Just can't hand out what we don't have and BA clearly don't think you'll mind! Finally, the last few rows on a NCL or any other short flight might not get served if we run out of time with minimum crew. Happens occasionally now but more likely with 3 crew instead of 5! Again, NOT the crew being mean, spiteful, childish but worried they may have to disappoint some of our already upset customers. Hope you continue to fly with us and be sure to let BA know if you are in anyway unhappy with the service you receive.
Regards Ottergirl
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In the eighties Cabin Crew operated with a compliment of three crew after breakfast and before the hot meal service in the evening on all domestic routes ABZ/NCL/JER and also DUB .NOT shuttle though .
This was on the BAC 1-11 99 Pax and B 737 (200) 114 Pax eventually the config went down to 106 on the 737 .The 319 may have a slightly bigger config however the meal service was more involved back then a cold tray drinks from the bar and tea or coffee.Crew managed to deliver this no problem .What's the problem opearting with three in this current climate especially as the service is not so involved now,i think you'll find you can serve the last few rows no problem.
The reason you run out of time "NOW" is normally down to bad management of the service.I positioned from NCL once and the crew run out of time and we had to overshoot .However they stood about chatting for quite some time after take off when they should have been out in the cabin and cracking on with the service .
This was on the BAC 1-11 99 Pax and B 737 (200) 114 Pax eventually the config went down to 106 on the 737 .The 319 may have a slightly bigger config however the meal service was more involved back then a cold tray drinks from the bar and tea or coffee.Crew managed to deliver this no problem .What's the problem opearting with three in this current climate especially as the service is not so involved now,i think you'll find you can serve the last few rows no problem.
The reason you run out of time "NOW" is normally down to bad management of the service.I positioned from NCL once and the crew run out of time and we had to overshoot .However they stood about chatting for quite some time after take off when they should have been out in the cabin and cracking on with the service .
Last edited by Weather Map; 15th Nov 2009 at 00:47.
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Hi Ten West
Just to let you know that the MAN base closed some time back so if you've enjoyed any flights from there you have done so with our lovely crew from LHR - like to change your mind?
Just to let you know that the MAN base closed some time back so if you've enjoyed any flights from there you have done so with our lovely crew from LHR - like to change your mind?
I've personally never had a bad experience on a BA flight. Neither (as far as I'm aware) have any of the crew that I've booked onto them either. Which is more than can be said of a certain Oirish Lo-Co that we're sometimes forced to use!
Which makes it all the more sad that certain elements inside your airline want to put you all out of a job.
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Ten W.
I used to be cabin crew in the 80's and also used to operate the routes you mentioned on 1-11's and series 2 737's.
On the Jersey route if all tourist on a 1-11; 99 pax, we used to have only 2 cabin crew at one time and 3 on the 737. The service was not exactly as you stated a full meal. It was just a combined drinks/ bevs/ biscuit service exactly what they offer in tourist now The main difference is we only did that on only the very short routes not on the longer routes as they do now.
We did it then and as you say the 737 was about the same capacity as the 319, we managed it then without refusing pax drinks and as far as I remember there were never any health and safety issues. It was a rush especially on the Jersey route but we managed our service effeciently to suit the flight time. It was possible then so why not in now?
LGW crew operate the LGW-JER on a 737, perhaps they can explain how they do it.
I would like to add that on flights just over about an hour we then did a cold meal, drinks Bevs and a proper duty free service, I cannot remember how many crew we had on a 737 on but it was probably only one more than they will get from tomorrow for just a bar service+ cookie and the tax-free service which did not compare with the time it took to sell proper duty free itmes. There also was a time we charged for drinks in tourist added to the above, that was time consuming.
I used to be cabin crew in the 80's and also used to operate the routes you mentioned on 1-11's and series 2 737's.
On the Jersey route if all tourist on a 1-11; 99 pax, we used to have only 2 cabin crew at one time and 3 on the 737. The service was not exactly as you stated a full meal. It was just a combined drinks/ bevs/ biscuit service exactly what they offer in tourist now The main difference is we only did that on only the very short routes not on the longer routes as they do now.
We did it then and as you say the 737 was about the same capacity as the 319, we managed it then without refusing pax drinks and as far as I remember there were never any health and safety issues. It was a rush especially on the Jersey route but we managed our service effeciently to suit the flight time. It was possible then so why not in now?
LGW crew operate the LGW-JER on a 737, perhaps they can explain how they do it.
I would like to add that on flights just over about an hour we then did a cold meal, drinks Bevs and a proper duty free service, I cannot remember how many crew we had on a 737 on but it was probably only one more than they will get from tomorrow for just a bar service+ cookie and the tax-free service which did not compare with the time it took to sell proper duty free itmes. There also was a time we charged for drinks in tourist added to the above, that was time consuming.
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Originally posted by Weather Map
In the eighties Cabin Crew operated with a compliment of three crew after breakfast and before the hot meal service in the evening on all domestic routes ABZ/NCL/JER and also DUB .NOT shuttle though .
This was on the BAC 1-11 99 Pax and B 737 (200) 114 Pax eventually the config went down to 106 on the 737 .The 319 may have a slightly bigger config however the meal service was more involved back then a cold tray drinks from the bar and tea or coffee.Crew managed to deliver this no problem .What's the problem opearting with three in this current climate especially as the service is not so involved now,i think you'll find you can serve the last few rows no problem. The reason you run out of time "NOW" is normally down to bad management of the service.I positioned from NCL once and the crew run out of time and we had to overshoot .However they stood about chatting for quite some time after take off when they should have been out in the cabin and cracking on with the service
In the eighties Cabin Crew operated with a compliment of three crew after breakfast and before the hot meal service in the evening on all domestic routes ABZ/NCL/JER and also DUB .NOT shuttle though .
This was on the BAC 1-11 99 Pax and B 737 (200) 114 Pax eventually the config went down to 106 on the 737 .The 319 may have a slightly bigger config however the meal service was more involved back then a cold tray drinks from the bar and tea or coffee.Crew managed to deliver this no problem .What's the problem opearting with three in this current climate especially as the service is not so involved now,i think you'll find you can serve the last few rows no problem.
The reason you run out of time "NOW" is normally down to bad management of the service.I positioned from NCL once and the crew run out of time and we had to overshoot .However they stood about chatting for quite some time after take off when they should have been out in the cabin and cracking on with the service
I joined BA in 1984 and operated on the BAC-11 and 737s out of LHR. As you rightly mention in your above post, we did a more elaborate service with 3 crew on the BAC-11 and 4 on the 737 just to correct Jean-Lill. However he/she is right is about the service routine on the Jersey flights which was also the case for the Dublin, Cork and Shannon flights. All European flights were as Jean-Lill says with a full tray in Club and a half tray in Economy plus Duty Frees.
I agree that it's a badly organised service and lack of teamwork all round which can result in an unfinished service.
The new crew matrix is not a problem, bring it on, I like a challenge. In any case, I prefer to be busy. Isn't that what we get paid for anyway? I did it then in 1984 and I can do it now and I'll always do my best to make it work on the day. If I was a passenger, that's what I'd expect from the crew. Anything less would be a poor reflection of myself as a SCCM and BA.
Ps Ottergirl, your post is spot on!
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Other departments do not have minimum staffing levels, if people are sick or leave is not covered you have no option but to adapt and work harder, why is this concept alien to some CC?
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Simon Calder show today may be of interest, 2 hours, 14.00 till 16.00.
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http://www.lbc.co.uk/simon-calder-3540
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Enjoy.
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http://www.lbc.co.uk/simon-calder-3540
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Enjoy.
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The new crewing levels are well within the limts for minumum crew for safetly isuues.
1x 50 pax on narrow bodied aircraft.
Any well managed crew with good team work can operate with 3 crew on a 319 on any route when there is only a bar service, all BA domestic services are single class.
The LCC's operate with minumum crew but they offer food as well as drinks that the pax has to pay for which is very time consuming collecting money from every pax served.
That is something BA crew do not have to do, no food (other than a biscuit or packet of nuts) and no collection of money for the drinks. Working the tourist cabin on a BA short haul aircraft on flights of 2+ hours must now be easier than ever before.
1x 50 pax on narrow bodied aircraft.
Any well managed crew with good team work can operate with 3 crew on a 319 on any route when there is only a bar service, all BA domestic services are single class.
The LCC's operate with minumum crew but they offer food as well as drinks that the pax has to pay for which is very time consuming collecting money from every pax served.
That is something BA crew do not have to do, no food (other than a biscuit or packet of nuts) and no collection of money for the drinks. Working the tourist cabin on a BA short haul aircraft on flights of 2+ hours must now be easier than ever before.
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I always read this thread as it has made me realise how lucky I am in a lot of respects. I've never dared post as I do not feel qualified to comment at what is going on at BA with your T&C's.
I do however feel qualified to comment on the service aspect on 319 with minimum crew. As a previous pax with BA I can also comment on the service on the JER.
Our 319's fly with 4 crew as we have 156 seats although that is always continually under the management microscope..... proposed plans to remove 1 row so we can come down to 150 and therefore 3 crew do the rounds quite often.
I have however done a AMS - LGW with 3 crew. That is a 45 minute flight. On that flight (146 pax) we achieved a full service by our standards, a tax free sales service and the sale of the Gatwick express tickets. Nobody was missed out as we worked as a co -ordinated team. It can be done!
I have experienced the BA "service" from JER and there seemed to be around 5/6 crew on this 737 although I was not counting. A member of crew rushed through the cabin on duty free and appeared pretty p
ed if she was bothered for a sale and I did bother her therefore increasing BA's revenue on board 
My poorly cooked bacon roll was literally plonked in front of me with a very brusque request of my drink from the very limited choice. All this is from our flag carrier!!
FlyBe do the JER service so much better and they do it on only 2 crew!! if their aircraft had more seats then they would do it on 3 no doubt. I fly with them all the time now and on the JER I am a frequent flyer.
In terms of safety on this route......on the BA flight I did the Pu did the cabin secure whilst she was collecting rubbish. Once she had collected my rubbish I then fastened my seatbelt, put my seatback up right and my bag under the seat in front. She didn't ask me to do any of this and nobody checked I did. Also nobody knew i was crew.....enough said I feel.
BA cannot manage their current service and safety requirements on their current crew compliment on a short flight and I speak as an informed SLF here. So what are they going to do when they have the legal minimum?
I do however feel qualified to comment on the service aspect on 319 with minimum crew. As a previous pax with BA I can also comment on the service on the JER.
Our 319's fly with 4 crew as we have 156 seats although that is always continually under the management microscope..... proposed plans to remove 1 row so we can come down to 150 and therefore 3 crew do the rounds quite often.
I have however done a AMS - LGW with 3 crew. That is a 45 minute flight. On that flight (146 pax) we achieved a full service by our standards, a tax free sales service and the sale of the Gatwick express tickets. Nobody was missed out as we worked as a co -ordinated team. It can be done!
I have experienced the BA "service" from JER and there seemed to be around 5/6 crew on this 737 although I was not counting. A member of crew rushed through the cabin on duty free and appeared pretty p
ed if she was bothered for a sale and I did bother her therefore increasing BA's revenue on board My poorly cooked bacon roll was literally plonked in front of me with a very brusque request of my drink from the very limited choice. All this is from our flag carrier!!
FlyBe do the JER service so much better and they do it on only 2 crew!! if their aircraft had more seats then they would do it on 3 no doubt. I fly with them all the time now and on the JER I am a frequent flyer.
In terms of safety on this route......on the BA flight I did the Pu did the cabin secure whilst she was collecting rubbish. Once she had collected my rubbish I then fastened my seatbelt, put my seatback up right and my bag under the seat in front. She didn't ask me to do any of this and nobody checked I did. Also nobody knew i was crew.....enough said I feel.
BA cannot manage their current service and safety requirements on their current crew compliment on a short flight and I speak as an informed SLF here. So what are they going to do when they have the legal minimum?
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Message for 'Toby' re his LBC rant.
What a load of rubbish has just been spoken by Toby on LBC. He doesn't care either about BA or his passengers. Presumably after 30 years service he isn't too bothered about being out of work. I hope that he will have time to reflect in the queue at the job centre!
What a load of rubbish has just been spoken by Toby on LBC. He doesn't care either about BA or his passengers. Presumably after 30 years service he isn't too bothered about being out of work. I hope that he will have time to reflect in the queue at the job centre!
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A piece of cake....
Originally posted by Jean-Lill
That is something BA crew do not have to do, no food (other than a biscuit or packet of nuts) and no collection of money for the drinks. Working the tourist cabin on a BA short haul aircraft on flights of 2+ hours must now be easier than ever before.
That is something BA crew do not have to do, no food (other than a biscuit or packet of nuts) and no collection of money for the drinks. Working the tourist cabin on a BA short haul aircraft on flights of 2+ hours must now be easier than ever before.
I agree it's vey easy for us on most days and we get it done fairly quickly. Most of us on Eurofleet are not complaining as our service in both Club Europe and Eurotraveller is relatively simple and straightforward, but for colleagues on WW it's a different ball game. I think things are more difficult with all the IFE problems, and generally customer's expectations on longer flights.
Apologies for digressing!
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Tiramisu,
I'm not sure I understand - where will the difficulties lie in WW in providing the service on say a standard JFK flight?
Bearing in mind it's still a minority of flights with IFE problems, the product has been reduced, and the CSD is there to man a trolley to fill the gap of the lost crewmember.
Worst case scenario as I see it is that the crew rest will be reduced marginally. (No hardship on the Bombay I did last week when half the crew were in bed 1.15 after take-off)
I'm not sure I understand - where will the difficulties lie in WW in providing the service on say a standard JFK flight?
Bearing in mind it's still a minority of flights with IFE problems, the product has been reduced, and the CSD is there to man a trolley to fill the gap of the lost crewmember.
Worst case scenario as I see it is that the crew rest will be reduced marginally. (No hardship on the Bombay I did last week when half the crew were in bed 1.15 after take-off)
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I don't know. Most of the posters here are plotting BASSA's downfall, yet I see BA has been unable to stop our ballot, unlike another association I could think of. Picked the wrong battle there lads. Should have kept your powder dry for the main event next year.
If Walsh wanted to close BA down for a week, do Carnage and others here seriously believe that he will not deal with you at the same time? Most at risk are pensions. It is unbelievable that Walsh has not tackled the deficit already, but there is one group of employees he wants to keep onside.....for the moment. Next year the final salary scheme will be closed and even accrued benefits will be changed to the money purchase BARP. Yes the legislation is going to be changed to help companies with large pension deficits out. That is the thanks you are going to get for your co-operation. And a four year no strike deal as well as the icing on the cake, so you can't do anything about it. What a stitch up.
If Carnage, Top Bunk, Overstress and all have any sense, they should all be hoping that the mainly female workforce in cabin crew are successful. Otherwise you may have a Spanish co-pilot sitting next to you earning 30% more, and a pension worth 50% less, even if the stock market is doing well.
If Walsh wanted to close BA down for a week, do Carnage and others here seriously believe that he will not deal with you at the same time? Most at risk are pensions. It is unbelievable that Walsh has not tackled the deficit already, but there is one group of employees he wants to keep onside.....for the moment. Next year the final salary scheme will be closed and even accrued benefits will be changed to the money purchase BARP. Yes the legislation is going to be changed to help companies with large pension deficits out. That is the thanks you are going to get for your co-operation. And a four year no strike deal as well as the icing on the cake, so you can't do anything about it. What a stitch up.
If Carnage, Top Bunk, Overstress and all have any sense, they should all be hoping that the mainly female workforce in cabin crew are successful. Otherwise you may have a Spanish co-pilot sitting next to you earning 30% more, and a pension worth 50% less, even if the stock market is doing well.
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Crew rest is a big issue!
(I can't remember the exact times).
Take a flight which is around 6 hours. You should only have a break for 20 minutes. Between 6 and 8 hours the rest should be anything between 30 to 40 minutes.
There won't be any problems doing the service on WW. It's only a matter of becoming acclimatized with the new routines but with the ongoing issues and a possible strike many crew are very offensive of doing any changes to make it work.
Hand out those comments card and give the passengers WW's email address as they say!
(I can't remember the exact times).
Take a flight which is around 6 hours. You should only have a break for 20 minutes. Between 6 and 8 hours the rest should be anything between 30 to 40 minutes.
There won't be any problems doing the service on WW. It's only a matter of becoming acclimatized with the new routines but with the ongoing issues and a possible strike many crew are very offensive of doing any changes to make it work.
Hand out those comments card and give the passengers WW's email address as they say!