British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Carnage matey
You leapt at flyinspanner, but he came here for a reason.
If you want cabin crew to have an alternative forum to discuss their concerns then perhaps a little gentleness may go a long way.
You seem, to me, to shout down everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Is this not what you accuse the Bassa faction of doing?
You leapt at flyinspanner, but he came here for a reason.
If you want cabin crew to have an alternative forum to discuss their concerns then perhaps a little gentleness may go a long way.
You seem, to me, to shout down everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Is this not what you accuse the Bassa faction of doing?
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Flyinspanner wrote:
EPIC MATHS FAIL
So, say 70 aircraft in SH, you reckon there are 280 cabin crew in Eurofleet?
There may only be 4 (or 6) CC on an A319 at any one time, but there are dozens more sat on standby, on days off, at Wimbledon, or sick (or both), Dransing out to VIE, double Dransing it on 1-out-1 back Lyon standovers, on 'availables' etc etc.
It's precisely because there are too many CC per A319 that BA are in such a mess! Compare the total amount of CC MPE Hrs paid for, per hull, or per sector operated, to other airlines and you will be shocked.
Or in 'clearspeak'; There are too many EF Cabin Crew paid to be sitting about doing nothing productive at any one time. That is the problem!
It has 175 staff per aircraft.....currently on an A319 only 4 of those are the cabin crew.
So, say 70 aircraft in SH, you reckon there are 280 cabin crew in Eurofleet?
There may only be 4 (or 6) CC on an A319 at any one time, but there are dozens more sat on standby, on days off, at Wimbledon, or sick (or both), Dransing out to VIE, double Dransing it on 1-out-1 back Lyon standovers, on 'availables' etc etc.
It's precisely because there are too many CC per A319 that BA are in such a mess! Compare the total amount of CC MPE Hrs paid for, per hull, or per sector operated, to other airlines and you will be shocked.
Or in 'clearspeak'; There are too many EF Cabin Crew paid to be sitting about doing nothing productive at any one time. That is the problem!
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FE
Quote....
"BA didn't make a 'loss' last year, it was just in negative profit. Positive profit returns in 2011."
What exactly is being implied? Is negative profit not a loss?
Try telling an accountant that it's something other than a loss.
I would think everyone in Europe knows BA made a loss, no point in trying to disguise that fact by calling a loss negative profit, sounds better but the meaning is the same.
Quote....
"BA didn't make a 'loss' last year, it was just in negative profit. Positive profit returns in 2011."
What exactly is being implied? Is negative profit not a loss?
Try telling an accountant that it's something other than a loss.
I would think everyone in Europe knows BA made a loss, no point in trying to disguise that fact by calling a loss negative profit, sounds better but the meaning is the same.
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It doesn't need 5 pages of maths.
I do think such basic errors really need to be flagged up though.
These are the kind of basic 'mistakes' BASSA are making, and they are asking our crew to put their jobs, and their family income on the line.
(I say 'mistakes' as BASSA have good form on deliberately peddling vague half truths and misleading spins. They also don't step in to correct errors on their own forums they know will help rile up the crew. The pilots free black tie ball that never was free or black tie, just a few mates in a pub, and the half truths about our productivity deal for starters)
I do think such basic errors really need to be flagged up though.
These are the kind of basic 'mistakes' BASSA are making, and they are asking our crew to put their jobs, and their family income on the line.
(I say 'mistakes' as BASSA have good form on deliberately peddling vague half truths and misleading spins. They also don't step in to correct errors on their own forums they know will help rile up the crew. The pilots free black tie ball that never was free or black tie, just a few mates in a pub, and the half truths about our productivity deal for starters)
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Could somebody please explain following for me:
- What does CAT mean?
- Why are they reluctant to fixed links? LHR-EDI-LHR-BRU-LHR wouldn't be hard work, would it?
- What's the purpose with standovers?
- What does CAT mean?
- Why are they reluctant to fixed links? LHR-EDI-LHR-BRU-LHR wouldn't be hard work, would it?
- What's the purpose with standovers?
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Could somebody please explain following for me:
- What does CAT mean?
- Why are they reluctant to fixed links? LHR-EDI-LHR-BRU-LHR wouldn't be hard work, would it?
- What's the purpose with standovers?
- What does CAT mean?
- Why are they reluctant to fixed links? LHR-EDI-LHR-BRU-LHR wouldn't be hard work, would it?
- What's the purpose with standovers?
Nowadays in T5, there is no CAT lounge, it just means a shorter turnaround, still with a min time to have a meal. Payment remains.
Fixed links - The CC do 4 sector days (for extra payments). The trouble is, they will happily do a LHR-TXL-LHR and want the turnaround to be as quick as possible because they are going home. However on the middle day of a 1-2-1 tour, say TXL-LHR-TXL, there is no way on God's green earth they will stay on the plane, it is against their human rights and so on. There is no explanation to this, other than fear of what the company might make them do in the future.
Standovers - Allow you to get crew in late, then operate the earliest one out after a days rest, sometimes comes about because of odd numbers of flights in/out and different a/c types operating the routes.
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Several individuals on here are jumping down the throats of new posters on here at it is making me cringe.They are voicing their opinions and good for them.We don`t want this to be like CF!
Please - a little more gentleness and reasoned persuasion rather than the heavy handed approach.They are after all our colleagues and one day we might actually end up going out for a beer with some of them.
Please - a little more gentleness and reasoned persuasion rather than the heavy handed approach.They are after all our colleagues and one day we might actually end up going out for a beer with some of them.
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The problem i have with those cat turnarounds or STR's as they are now cabin crew tend to bend the rules when it suits, so infact does the union .Dispensation from BASSA what a load of utter rubbish.Either they are working to the agreements or they are not.When they are three minutes out and if it's a good nightstop for allowances most would sell their soules to the devil to stay on the trip .When it's just a quick shuttle on the end of a three day trip if they are three minutes out it's NO WAY i'm doing it we're out of hrs and off home they go.
That's where the company has been to soft with all of this and BASSA does what it wants when it suits they are just not credible.
Do BA realy need CSD's on Eurofleet NO they don't.The job is just the same as a PSR on Eurofleet so that should be the first thing WW should address.
I doubt he is willing to play the game with BASSA anymore he has them exactly where he wants them and he will not give in .
That's where the company has been to soft with all of this and BASSA does what it wants when it suits they are just not credible.
Do BA realy need CSD's on Eurofleet NO they don't.The job is just the same as a PSR on Eurofleet so that should be the first thing WW should address.
I doubt he is willing to play the game with BASSA anymore he has them exactly where he wants them and he will not give in .
7Heroes,
That may be so, and we welcome those coming here for a change of view from that which pervades the BASSA coven. For those coming here asking for advice and clarification on the 'truths' that BASSA peddles, then there is plenty here that will open their eyes. Those that come here and push BASSA's juvenile nonsense, without attempt at justification or reasoned argument, must expect short shrift!
That may be so, and we welcome those coming here for a change of view from that which pervades the BASSA coven. For those coming here asking for advice and clarification on the 'truths' that BASSA peddles, then there is plenty here that will open their eyes. Those that come here and push BASSA's juvenile nonsense, without attempt at justification or reasoned argument, must expect short shrift!
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Hi Carnage,
Happy to help. My GROSS was £44371.20 deductions £8204
I wish it was over £50K mate!
What was yours?
FlexSRS -No Its not an epic maths failure,you seem to assume that there are only A319s on eurofleet, that the crew live on them and do not get days off, annual leave, that some crew are required to be downroute, some on standby, some off sick, some undergoing reccurent training, some line trainers delivering the training.
Maybe you need to adjust your simplistic formula
Happy to help. My GROSS was £44371.20 deductions £8204
I wish it was over £50K mate!
What was yours?
FlexSRS -No Its not an epic maths failure,
you seem to assume that there are only A319s on eurofleet, that the crew live on them and do not get days off, annual leave, that some crew are required to be downroute, some on standby, some off sick, some undergoing reccurent training, some line trainers delivering the training.Maybe you need to adjust your simplistic formula
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Once again as a customer who doesn't know if his flight to CPT on 23 Dec will be operating, is anyone prepared to hazard a calculated guess as to the odds of my flight going ahead, on schedule?
£10.00 will be donated to the Poppy Appeal for the correct answer!
£10.00 will be donated to the Poppy Appeal for the correct answer!
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Hi Fincastle,
I am a CSD on Eurofleet. I was on standby today and met several Worldwide CSDs and Eurofleet CSDs and Pursers, 12 to be precise. Six of the WW CSDs said they would vote NO and so did the rest of us Eurofleet CSDS and Pursers. So there you have it, 12 crew today said they were going to work and would not support and Industrial action. That's just today.
At a guess, I think your flight will operate to Capetown.
But please don't hold me resposible if it doesn't.
I am a CSD on Eurofleet. I was on standby today and met several Worldwide CSDs and Eurofleet CSDs and Pursers, 12 to be precise. Six of the WW CSDs said they would vote NO and so did the rest of us Eurofleet CSDS and Pursers. So there you have it, 12 crew today said they were going to work and would not support and Industrial action. That's just today.
At a guess, I think your flight will operate to Capetown.
But please don't hold me resposible if it doesn't.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 11th Nov 2009 at 20:59.
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There appears to be a lot of BA pilots telling BASSA/CC to "get real". Let's not forget BA pilots are also payed over the market rate and recieve better than average industry perks. Oh yes, lets not forget that BA managers also recieve greater than the average industry package.
Although not directly involved with BA I have flown with them many times and believe their CC are above average. Their bloated and overpaid management structure is BA's weakest link.
Although not directly involved with BA I have flown with them many times and believe their CC are above average. Their bloated and overpaid management structure is BA's weakest link.
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Finncastle Have to say sorry but I disagree.
I think you will find your flight not going. Just my gut feeling based on the WW crews I have worked with and spoken to.
Actually to be honest I think you will find crew doing a mass sickie.
I think you will find your flight not going. Just my gut feeling based on the WW crews I have worked with and spoken to.
Actually to be honest I think you will find crew doing a mass sickie.
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Flyinspanner
I think maybe we are sort of agreeing here, on this first point. I am not assuming that the crew live on the plane and don't get days off, in fact I am pointing out the exact opposite, that because of these things you need many more crew than 4 per hull.
What I was taking issue with, was your statement about there being 175 staff per aircraft, and only 4 being CC.
In fact, per a/c on SH, out of that 175 (or however many), there are going to be a significantly more than 4 CC, just like there are going to be more than 2 pilots.
I think we all take your point that BA has more back office staff etc and does have more staff per hull than other carriers, and no one would deny that, to an extent, (but then we do our own pushback, check-in, engineering etc which others contract out, so don't count as headcount, just cost)
My issue is with playing fast and loose with figures like that, to make it seem like there are hundreds of other wasters, and only a few CC, so they look like such a small amount in comparison, that it hardly seems worth tackling the excesses.
Surely I can't be the only one that sees it that way?
(edited to add; just for comparison, in your numbers below, you now say 12crew per hull, so for say 70 hulls in EF, that would be 840cc required. I'm just saying start from the other way around. In very, very rough numbers, say there are about 5000 crew in EF, over, say 70 planes, that is about 70 crew per hull, so when you now look at 175 staff per plane, and 70 are CC, it is a very different picture than saying 4. Even if you half the amount again, you are still talking a factor of 10 more)
**ps - that human rights quote re fixed links was a quote from a rather animated commuter, I only include it tongue in cheek. I know a lot of crew who would rather just get on with it and go home 2hrs earlier.
FlexSRS -No Its not an epic maths failure, you seem to assume that there are only A319s on eurofleet, that the crew live on them and do not get days off, annual leave, that some crew are required to be downroute, some on standby, some off sick, some undergoing reccurent training, some line trainers delivering the training.
Maybe you need to adjust your simplistic formula
Maybe you need to adjust your simplistic formula
What I was taking issue with, was your statement about there being 175 staff per aircraft, and only 4 being CC.
In fact, per a/c on SH, out of that 175 (or however many), there are going to be a significantly more than 4 CC, just like there are going to be more than 2 pilots.
I think we all take your point that BA has more back office staff etc and does have more staff per hull than other carriers, and no one would deny that, to an extent, (but then we do our own pushback, check-in, engineering etc which others contract out, so don't count as headcount, just cost)
My issue is with playing fast and loose with figures like that, to make it seem like there are hundreds of other wasters, and only a few CC, so they look like such a small amount in comparison, that it hardly seems worth tackling the excesses.
Surely I can't be the only one that sees it that way?
(edited to add; just for comparison, in your numbers below, you now say 12crew per hull, so for say 70 hulls in EF, that would be 840cc required. I'm just saying start from the other way around. In very, very rough numbers, say there are about 5000 crew in EF, over, say 70 planes, that is about 70 crew per hull, so when you now look at 175 staff per plane, and 70 are CC, it is a very different picture than saying 4. Even if you half the amount again, you are still talking a factor of 10 more)
**ps - that human rights quote re fixed links was a quote from a rather animated commuter, I only include it tongue in cheek. I know a lot of crew who would rather just get on with it and go home 2hrs earlier.
Last edited by FlexSRS; 11th Nov 2009 at 21:28. Reason: to put in quote
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Hi again Flex,
I agree, I think that manpower is generally about 3 fullcrews per aircraft hull (one operating, one for rtn, one on days off)
So out of the 175...6 FC and 12 CC......so 157 left?...
We do cover our own operation at base, but most outstations are now outsourced.(and cleaning at base)
*ps I dont think fixed links are against our human rights, I'd much rather do one than go back to CRC
I agree, I think that manpower is generally about 3 fullcrews per aircraft hull (one operating, one for rtn, one on days off)
So out of the 175...6 FC and 12 CC......so 157 left?...
We do cover our own operation at base, but most outstations are now outsourced.(and cleaning at base)
*ps I dont think fixed links are against our human rights, I'd much rather do one than go back to CRC
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Tiramisu and flyinspanner - are you both full time, WW CSDs? If you are then you're not getting your fair share of the good trips! The CSD payslip I'm looking at right now has a basic a shade over £40K and a gross taxable year to date for the last tax year in excess of £50K, which of course means the true gross is even higher still. So some CSDs are earning that sort of cash. When does your incremental pay scale stop?
qwertyuiop - welcome. Perhaps you could tell us what the market rate is for a B744 captain in the UK? And could you explain why an acquaintance of mine who was BA cabin crew and is now a BA cabin crew manager earns less than she did as crew? Doesn't seem like she's overpaid.
qwertyuiop - welcome. Perhaps you could tell us what the market rate is for a B744 captain in the UK? And could you explain why an acquaintance of mine who was BA cabin crew and is now a BA cabin crew manager earns less than she did as crew? Doesn't seem like she's overpaid.
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...my flight to CPT on 23 Dec will be operating, is anyone prepared to hazard a calculated guess as to the odds of my flight going ahead...