British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[ottergirl]

Other departments do not have minimum staffing levels, if people are sick or leave is not covered you have no option but to adapt and work harder, why is this concept alien to some CC?

CAA regulations say that we must have a minimum crewing level equal to one crew member per 50 passengers so that everyone can be evacuated in an emergency. Not a random number but one that has been arrived at after extensive testing with a variety of different aircraft. The CAA are not interested in how many crew it takes to serve coffee, (in fact they don't care whether you get a coffee or not) they are just interested in safe operation.
I guess most other office/terminal based departments rarely have a decompression, NITS (planned emergency)briefing, evacuation, etc so no-one notices if half of them are off sick or on leave. In the last six months we have had two full evacuations (a 747 and a 757), and six NITS briefing on Eurofleet alone.
Hope that explains why the concept is both alien and undesirable.

[finncapt]

Fume event

I didn't know BA have bothered to try and stop your ballot.

I wouldn't think it was in their interests to interfere.

If I am wrong please tell me what action(s) they have taken to stop your ballot - I missed it.

[midman]

Thanks for posting Fumes, hilarious as ever.

Just a few questions regarding your illogical ramblings:
1. A ballot means nothing. And a yes result in the ballot will mean nothing to Willie - he knows so many of you will vote yes without the nerve to strike on the day. So what have you won so far?

2. Willie doesn't WANT to close the airline for a week, but is fully prepared both operationally and financially to do so when he sees the result will be a defeated and impotent Bassa. Why should he wish to take on the pilots? We have an agreement and no argument.

3. Glad you have the ear of both the present government and next year's too regarding pensions. And where did you get the 4 year no strike deal from? Lalaland?

4. I'm at a loss to understand why I'll have a spanish co-pilot on more pay and less pension if you lose your dispute. Please explain. (with logic!) And why the reference to 'mainly female cabin crew?

Go on, keep us laughing!

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Fume Event

I don't know. Most of the posters here are plotting BASSA's downfall, yet I see BA has been unable to stop our ballot, unlike another association I could think of.

What association would that be then Fume? I don't recall BA stopping anyones ballot in recent years. Could it be that you are bending the truth to suit your case once again?

If Walsh wanted to close BA down for a week, do Carnage and others here seriously believe that he will not deal with you at the same time?

What, you mean this December? Somehow I doubt it, as much as you'd love it.

Most at risk are pensions. It is unbelievable that Walsh has not tackled the deficit already, but there is one group of employees he wants to keep onside.....for the moment.

Pray tell how he tackles the deficit when he doesn't even have a valuation to work on?

Next year the final salary scheme will be closed and even accrued benefits will be changed to the money purchase BARP.

Change in the law is there?

Yes the legislation is going to be changed to help companies with large pension deficits out.

Yep, but not in the way you're thinking. Or not thinking more like.

That is the thanks you are going to get for your co-operation. And a four year no strike deal as well as the icing on the cake, so you can't do anything about it. What a stitch up.

Keep bleating. We both know you're wrong Mr P.

If Carnage, Top Bunk, Overstress and all have any sense, they should all be hoping that the mainly female workforce in cabin crew are successful.

Still desperately trying the female discrimination angle are we? Wonder why you didn't try that in the High Court when you were losing your injunction battle.

Otherwise you may have a Spanish co-pilot sitting next to you earning 30% more, and a pension worth 50% less, even if the stock market is doing well.

Oooh, a touching racist tone to your final comments. I'd have no problems with a Spanish co-pilot, just as I have no problems with the Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Irish or Finnish co-pilots in BA. And if you think the pension isn't screwed regardless of the stock market then it would explain why your BASSA maths isn't too good.

[Slickster]

I don't know. Most of the posters here are plotting BASSA's downfall, yet I see BA has been unable to stop our ballot, unlike another association I could think of. Picked the wrong battle there lads. Should have kept your powder dry for the main event next year.

We're not plotting BASSA's downfall, Fume Event, BASSA are managing that perfectly well themselves. Even if I wanted to, how could I be involved in the downfall of BASSA?

Of course BA can't stop your ballot; ballot away, on anything you see fit, then wait for the result, see what the legal eagles do, then see how far your strike (for what, BTW?!!) goes.

Most of us are just interested bystanders, watching with incredulousness, at BASSA's behaviour. Most of us are concerned, because we either work for BA, or are passengers with BA.

Our powder is dry, Fume Event. BALPA have been in talks with their Spanish counterparts for 2 years, pending the merger, that has just been announced with Iberia. What have BASSA been doing?

[flybymerchant]

Prove you're not withholding info from CC...

Fume Event,

Although I'm not surprised at your unwillingness to ask BASSA the difficult questions, please can you let us know why you haven't cut and paste my conveniently summarised questions and posted them as asked on the BASSA forum?

I can only assume you don't want your 'fellow' Cabin Crew members to have access to both sides of the debate, preferring that time-tested BASSA approach of telling them how to vote (without all the facts) and how to put their jobs/futures on the line (without explaining the risks).

Once again, here's what I wrote a couple of days ago so you don't have to go too far back to cut and paste.....I'm all give


Flybymerchant wrote:
"p.s. Fume Event, if you want any credibility as a sensible poster and not just a BASSA stooge, please do ask those questions on the BASSA forum. I feel sure that if your views here reflect your views over there no-one will try to punish you or threaten physical violence in the carpark, just post it as an 'example' of what's being discussed on the PPRuNe forum. I'm sure someone will post a copy of it back here to verify when you've done it.

p.p.s. for ease:

"Why have BASSA....
-refused to look at the BA financial books
-denied the recession
-not consulted the electorate on proposed changes
-not admitted the need for change
-refused to negotiate with the company
-disseminated clearly false information to its members
-not informed the members about the share option that the company offered to the Cabin Crew
-negligently allowed crew to believe they will STILL get paid in a strike
-GROSSLY negligently assured them they CANNOT get fired during a strike
-not educated the members about S.O.S.R....the thing that allows BA, (from any point now on) to send any crew members (i.e. all CSDs if they like) a '90 day letter of termination' whenever it feels like it. Look it up. The only reason it hasn't is because it hasn't been provoked enough yet to justify such draconian measures...something tells me the ogre is starting to get riled (court, strike etc)
-lied to the members about the pilot's paydeal, pilots VR party, WW trying to position BA as a lowcost carrier (?!) etc, etc,
-withheld clearly true/valid information that would allow crew to formulate a rounded and well-informed opinion on matters
-offered a PAYCUT that was not voted for or wanted by cabin crew (or BA!)
etc,etc, I mean, how they expect not to be sued by the members for gross misconduct I don't know. I'm sorry to go on but the list does.....go on...and on....and on"

GOOD LUCK BA CABIN CREW- SAVE OUR COMPANY!!!"

[Fume Event]

With the revelation about cabin crew and pilot average pay in IBERIA, I will be urging BASSA to accede to Willie Walsh's demands of market rate plus 10%....... as offered in Spain.

Funny how BA never compared its cabin crew pay to IBERIA, especially as it planned to merge with the company. Now we know why!

Naturally, no pilot or cabin crew member in IBERIA will be exactly rooting for this merger. BA will be far more profitable anyway as a stand alone business than it propping up IBERIA in the future. As BA exits its negative profit strategy in 2011, IBERIA will still be paying its crews 30% more than the current rates in BA.

What a marriage made in heaven. Well down Willie.

[Fume Event]

FlyBy Merchant. Please do not give me any of your demands to do this and that. You are not at work now.

[beerdrinker]

Fume Event

Not an order from a ROF, merely a request to the resident BASSA spokesman to answer a few simple questions.

[finncapt]

I am retired so I don't have the pleasure? of going to the crew report centre.

I get the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that BASSA seem to think it is ok to post stickers suggesting that cabin crew vote yes to a strike.

I wonder what BASSA would say if BA posted an equal no. of stickers, expressing their viewpoint, on what is their building.

Intimidation?

[Jpax]

Fume Event,

Why do you think that the fact that ballot papers will eventually be sent out is so important? Correct me if I am wrong but can any company prevent that from happening when in industrial dispute with its employees. What I am asking is could BA have stopped the ballot papers being sent out without backing down and giving in.

The results of the ballot is what will matter.

What about the agreement made at court 10 days ago where it was agreed by both sides that the matter will be heard in Court on 1st February- court case pending.

Your comment about Iberia. The BA/Iberia marriage has not yet happened, we will have to wait to see if it does. I guess it does not meet with your approval.

[jetset lady]

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

I always read this thread as it has made me realise how lucky I am in a lot of respects. I've never dared post as I do not feel qualified to comment at what is going on at BA with your T&C's.

Now, if only you'd left it there, all would be fine. But you seem to find that impossible, lowcostdolly.

You may feel qualified to comment on YOUR services on the JER and AMS, but trust me, that's a world away from us! If you knew as much as you thought you did, you'd know that we also do LGW-AMS with 3 crew on the A319, dependant on the Club numbers and have been at those crewing levels for a fair while now. In fact, according to one of your FO's, you often have more crew on flights out of LGW than we do. Fair enough, we don't do duty free or charge for drinks but we do still have a Club Cabin to deal with. As for Jersey, can I ask how long ago that flight was?

Originally Posted by lowcostdolly

BA cannot manage their current service and safety requirements on their current crew compliment on a short flight and I speak as an informed SLF here. So what are they going to do when they have the legal minimum?

Once again, you couldn't help yourself, could you! You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. From your "impressions" on one flight, a long time ago, you feel qualified to pass judgement on the whole airline.

Please go away, lowcostdolly and stick to lecturing the poor people on the SLF/Passengers thread. Frankly, I'm sick to death of the sight of your name!

Jsl

P.S. Sorry Mods....

[Desertia]

Fume Event: I don't know.

You got that one right. I've not seen anyone say the ballot isn't going ahead.

The rest of your email seems to veer off at a tangent from the subject at hand; no real surprise there, it's a fairly old and poor diversionary debate technique frequently used when your argument is collapsing.

BASSA and yourselves maybe can but definitely will not provide the answers to the questions proffered by flybymerchant at 16:47 (again).

The reason? It is clearly not in your PERSONAL interests to do so. If I am wrong feel free to provide the information requested in your next post, and it will surely shut us up in a heartbeat.

However, I know that there are many BASSA members once again reading the questions and wondering why the answers are not forthcoming. I'll say it again for those BASSA members that are reading here: BASSA do not want you to know the answers, they are protecting themselves not their members.

And now many are wondering why so many of their own are crying:

VOTE NO AND RESIGN FROM BASSA!

[frontcheck]

Hope that explains why the concept is both alien and undesirable.

The legal minimum levels are still covered, so no it does not explain.

[LD12986]

With the revelation about cabin crew and pilot average pay in IBERIA, I will be urging BASSA to accede to Willie Walsh's demands of market rate plus 10%....... as offered in Spain.

Funny how BA never compared its cabin crew pay to IBERIA, especially as it planned to merge with the company. Now we know why!

Naturally, no pilot or cabin crew member in IBERIA will be exactly rooting for this merger. BA will be far more profitable anyway as a stand alone business than it propping up IBERIA in the future. As BA exits its negative profit strategy in 2011, IBERIA will still be paying its crews 30% more than the current rates in BA.

What a marriage made in heaven. Well down Willie.

It is a novel argument to insist being paid at market rates in a different country.

As already pointed out to you, exchange rates influence the comparison. The rate of exchange between the £ and Euro is 1.15. Three years ago it was 1.50.

Also, Iberia is actually taking steps to reduce CC costs by transferring all short and medium-haul routes to a new airline company, and retiring all CC aged over 55.

Iberia is also in a very strong financial position. It has a modern fleet, no debt, and a cash balance of 2.304 billion Euros. In the current climate, that is an extremely enviable and fortuitous position to be in.

As for all crews "naturally" not rooting for this merger. So I presume you're happy for BA to stay as it is whilst the rest of the industry consolidates and with a hub at LHR with very little prospect of expanding in the near future?

[Nutjob]

As above........

[Joetom]

Wish list, a guess in order of needs to be sorted PDQ.

1. Pensions closed

2. Pensions closed.

3. Pensions closed.

4. Reduce staff costs, reduce headcount, get new aircraft, AA/IB etc etc.


4 is all good stuff, much smoke and mirrors, yes it needs to be done, don't think the IB will stay the course.

If number 1 was done first, problems dealing with number 4 would be fun.

Get 4 sorted, deal done, then number 1 can be done.

I think the CC unions are well aware that if they were to accept a big reductions in T+Cs and then Pensions closed, their members will have been sold very short.

CC unions will play the long game to keep T+Cs, they know the Pension problems will be on the table sooner than later, by playing the long game, they will hold a better hand when the Pensions are being sorted out.

Any chance of a poll on the results of the CC vote, a wild guess would be 77% vote of IA.

Good luck to all the CC.

[lowcostdolly]

JSL I was not commenting on my company's JER services. I was commenting on my experience on a particular BA flight which actually was the worse of a series of BA flights to JER that I did.

My post was also relevant to some posts made by other's who have not felt the need to have a hissey fit on here. They either quietly disagreed or thourght I'd made a relevant comparison and points. You disagreed but felt the need to spit the dummy. Very mature.

You can ask when this flight was but as the info was given to BA customer services who also informed me they would also be passing the matter to your safety dept you would need to know because......

If you are sick of my name then I suggest you stop reading/responding to my posts Sweetheart. There is such a thing as an ignore list you know. Why don't you try using it if you can't cope with me posting.

[midman]

Originally Posted by Joetom

CC unions will play the long game to keep T+Cs, they know the Pension problems will be on the table sooner than later, by playing the long game, they will hold a better hand when the Pensions are being sorted out.

Bassa playing the long game with their Ts and Cs?

They start on some new Ts and Cs on Monday because of their strategy to bring things to a head, and they're pushing to both strike and go to court in the very near future. A defeat in either will mean the decimation of Ts and Cs in short order.

If this is playing the long game....

[Lord Bracken]

BA will be far more profitable anyway as a stand alone business than it propping up IBERIA in the future. As BA exits its negative profit strategy in 2011,

Can someone, anyone, honestly tell me what this means?