British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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The question?
Would one of the union members here care to share with us the exact wording of the 12,000 (or is it 14,000?) ballot papers?
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by TorC; 17th Nov 2009 at 08:43. Reason: malfunctioning "i" on my keyboard
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TorC,
I agree, I have been eagerly anticipating the word games that BASSA are employing to get a 'legal' 'contractual' ballot out of a productivity issue.
I think they must have a very big, thick and ambiguous thesaurus at BASSA HQ!
I agree, I have been eagerly anticipating the word games that BASSA are employing to get a 'legal' 'contractual' ballot out of a productivity issue.
I think they must have a very big, thick and ambiguous thesaurus at BASSA HQ!
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For clarification
Lest anyone not get the Dave Spart reference, and in the vain hope that he hasn't written the ballot prose:
Dave Spart – ultra-left wing activist, always representing a ridiculous-sounding union, (often the National Amalgamated Union of Sixth-Form Operatives and Allied Trades), collective or magazine, which is frequently based in Neasden) who is given free rein to express his views. These always begin "Once again ...", before attempting to lambast the subject of his anger for alleged misconduct, prejudice or general wrongdoing. Rarely does this get further than a few words before it breaks down into a fragmented litany of "sickening... totally sickening... worse than Hitler..." and so on, before being abruptly curtailed by the inevitable "continued on page 94". Since he must take the alternative view on any subject, he often ends up contradicting himself and getting stuck in illogicality, frequently stopping with "Er..." but continuing anyway. The name 'Spart' is derived from the German Spartacus League which existed during the first world war, and other subsequent revolutionary groups.
Dave Spart – ultra-left wing activist, always representing a ridiculous-sounding union, (often the National Amalgamated Union of Sixth-Form Operatives and Allied Trades), collective or magazine, which is frequently based in Neasden) who is given free rein to express his views. These always begin "Once again ...", before attempting to lambast the subject of his anger for alleged misconduct, prejudice or general wrongdoing. Rarely does this get further than a few words before it breaks down into a fragmented litany of "sickening... totally sickening... worse than Hitler..." and so on, before being abruptly curtailed by the inevitable "continued on page 94". Since he must take the alternative view on any subject, he often ends up contradicting himself and getting stuck in illogicality, frequently stopping with "Er..." but continuing anyway. The name 'Spart' is derived from the German Spartacus League which existed during the first world war, and other subsequent revolutionary groups.
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I, as a regular BA customer am a little confused, I thought I knew what the industrial problem between BA & Cabin Crew Union is through reading in the media and on this forum.
However, a BA steward visited a nieghbour and was introduced to me, I asked him what the strike was about and secondly what the court case on 1 st Feb is about.
He was very vague but said there are two vastly different issues that are not connected in any way. He said the strike was about management refusing to allow his union to negotiate (I apologised as I though it was the other way around)
His partner, also a cabin crew member came to collect him and said exactly the same that Bassa were denied any opportunity to negotiate and that is the reason for the strike ballot, they were both 100% confident a strike will happen, they will win the court case and a new CEO will soon be replacing the current one.
They said the court they was because the number of cabin crew on an aircraft is clearly contractual and cannot be changed, they said the lawyer confirmed that. I asked what happens when BA buys a new type of aircraft, smaller or larger than the type it replaces which must happen from time to time that need more/less crew, do they change everyone's contract who works on the new aircraft to reflext the number of crew needed? They were unable to answer that question but started almost shouting that the number of crew is contractual.
I mentioned I fly from LGW and noticed they have less crew than they used to have, do they not have contracts, they said they knew nothing about the LGW crew as they are LHR based.
Can anyone clarify exactly what the two issues are about?
I perhaps mistakenly thought the strike ballot and the court case were about the same thing.
However, a BA steward visited a nieghbour and was introduced to me, I asked him what the strike was about and secondly what the court case on 1 st Feb is about.
He was very vague but said there are two vastly different issues that are not connected in any way. He said the strike was about management refusing to allow his union to negotiate (I apologised as I though it was the other way around)
His partner, also a cabin crew member came to collect him and said exactly the same that Bassa were denied any opportunity to negotiate and that is the reason for the strike ballot, they were both 100% confident a strike will happen, they will win the court case and a new CEO will soon be replacing the current one.
They said the court they was because the number of cabin crew on an aircraft is clearly contractual and cannot be changed, they said the lawyer confirmed that. I asked what happens when BA buys a new type of aircraft, smaller or larger than the type it replaces which must happen from time to time that need more/less crew, do they change everyone's contract who works on the new aircraft to reflext the number of crew needed? They were unable to answer that question but started almost shouting that the number of crew is contractual.
I mentioned I fly from LGW and noticed they have less crew than they used to have, do they not have contracts, they said they knew nothing about the LGW crew as they are LHR based.
Can anyone clarify exactly what the two issues are about?
I perhaps mistakenly thought the strike ballot and the court case were about the same thing.
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CFC.
As you seem to be a BASSA supporter, may I respectfully draw your attention to Post # 3311 & request that you be kind enough to answer my simplistic questions.
Thanks in advance.
As you seem to be a BASSA supporter, may I respectfully draw your attention to Post # 3311 & request that you be kind enough to answer my simplistic questions.
Thanks in advance.
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I saw my first "Vote Yes" poster in someone's car window in the crew car park on Sunday morning. Will they get away with it I wonder? Not company property, but on company property!
Anyone care to share the ballot wording with us?
Anyone care to share the ballot wording with us?
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Answer To Cfc
Quote:
Feelings amongst my many flying friends is now runninin high ... we just cannot wait for the ballot to arrive ... to vote YES.
Your previous statement makes me think that you are in a position to answer my query, so please go ahead. You will be able to help me decide whether or not to rebook my flights with Virgin.
Thanks
Feelings amongst my many flying friends is now runninin high ... we just cannot wait for the ballot to arrive ... to vote YES.
Your previous statement makes me think that you are in a position to answer my query, so please go ahead. You will be able to help me decide whether or not to rebook my flights with Virgin.
Thanks
Last edited by fincastle84; 17th Nov 2009 at 12:36. Reason: sp.
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I'm starting to think that Rev. Jim Jones analogy wasn't quite as far off the mark as I thought it was, when I see people ecstatic about the chance to chew off the hand that feeds them.
But as we've said all along, there are those that will tick the box, and there are those that will stick their heads above the parapet.
And should the message of reason not get through, methinks the ones that protesteth the mostest on here will be the ones scurrying around in the dark on December 21st trying not to be noticed.
Now come on, who's going to show us the ballot letter?
I'm absolutely dying to see how they're going to spin this one.
Perhaps one of our more confident pro-BASSA posters would be nice enough to share it with us?
Or are they afraid it will be properly analysed and shown for what it really is?
But as we've said all along, there are those that will tick the box, and there are those that will stick their heads above the parapet.
And should the message of reason not get through, methinks the ones that protesteth the mostest on here will be the ones scurrying around in the dark on December 21st trying not to be noticed.
Now come on, who's going to show us the ballot letter?
I'm absolutely dying to see how they're going to spin this one.
Perhaps one of our more confident pro-BASSA posters would be nice enough to share it with us?
Or are they afraid it will be properly analysed and shown for what it really is?
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Just to explain the mindset of these people, here is a missive the day before imposition, published on the uniteba website. I don't recall seeing it on the thread.
15/11/09
A Response to Bill's Begging Letter
One more time….
Another communication from Mr. Francis, its amazing how we are in such different places. The opening paragraph states we are balloting about “measures being introduced…” NO Mr Francis we are balloting because you are IMPOSING the measures!
We have kept you all fully informed of the developments as they have occurred and tried to make sense of them for you when common sense has not been commonplace on the part of BA.
We know you will seriously consider the impact of your vote and the clear fact that you don’t have a choice if you will not tolerate IMPOSITION. You have to vote YES if you want to say NO to IMPOSITION and a tyrannical management that is driving our company into the ground quite literally.
Be assured colleagues when there is a strike it will not be your responsibility; it will once again rest with the British Airways leadership team. They are responsible for bringing us to this place, they are responsible for not respecting you and the job you do, they are responsible for not acknowledging the important and pivotal role you play in the success.
Yes Unite will take you out on strike, because that is what is necessary for you to be treated with the respect you deserve. Yes you will lose a little pay, but your Union has made provisions to give you strike pay because they believe in what you are doing is right. Your union is putting its money where its mouth is.
Do not be fooled into believing you will damage the product and the brand, the leadership team are doing that all on their own, reducing crew, imposing changes to product undermining the hard product and their most important asset YOU. Without you British Airways has nothing. You represent everything that this company stands for, you, are the personification of the hard and soft product that we are famed for.
You need to know we did not lose the court action, if we had we would not be going to trial. We would have been ordered; to pay BA’s over inflated legal costs, we were not. The fact British Airways cannot defend their ludicrous belief that your agreements are not contractual, will cost them dearly when they potentially have to pay compensation to each and everyone of you for the imposition of the crewing levels.
Please be assured the package is not going to be put at risk, BA need to shed the crew to make way for less expensive crew, they cannot afford to withdraw the severance package and part time contract offers as the schedule has already been set to accommodate the reduction. They are as the saying goes “hoisted by their own petard”
As for the rest of it…. It amounts to smoke and mirrors an attempt to bribe you, to deflect your attention from their undertakings in the short term. Why is there a need for a fixed monthly travel payment? Fleet transfers at Heathrow, what about Gatwick? Why has the ops and choice agreement been totally ignored? Why is there temporary promotion on Worldwide?
When you take the time to understand the answers to the ‘WHY’s” then you will be clear that the only course of action is for you to vote YES and stop the madness.
The assertion, that Unite, will be talking to British Airways in the near future, will be dealt with by the Joint General Secretaries, they will communicate with you in due course.
We are astounded that this leadership team would have the audacity to try and buy off the safety of the redeployment agreement and career link for a few paltry shares and a ticket. When all else fails these agreements are the safety net, we will not be party to an arrangement that isolates our friends and colleagues at Gatwick and sneaks compulsory redundancy through the back door…. free ticket, you can stick it!
Finally it needs to be said… it's a shame that you did not think about our customers Mr Francis when you were hatching your audacious plans, it's a shame you did not value your greatest asset, your crew. Shame on you the leadership team, for trying to palm off the responsibility for poor business decisions onto your employees… we are going to vote YES because you have failed us, our customers and our company."
If you want to read yesterday's "press release", it's here:
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/BAcabin...llotstarts.pdf
Possibly the most absurd sentence you can imagine: "Be assured colleagues when there is a strike it will not be your responsibility".
I can assure you it most certainly will be, as will be the consequences to you.
15/11/09
A Response to Bill's Begging Letter
One more time….
Another communication from Mr. Francis, its amazing how we are in such different places. The opening paragraph states we are balloting about “measures being introduced…” NO Mr Francis we are balloting because you are IMPOSING the measures!
We have kept you all fully informed of the developments as they have occurred and tried to make sense of them for you when common sense has not been commonplace on the part of BA.
We know you will seriously consider the impact of your vote and the clear fact that you don’t have a choice if you will not tolerate IMPOSITION. You have to vote YES if you want to say NO to IMPOSITION and a tyrannical management that is driving our company into the ground quite literally.
Be assured colleagues when there is a strike it will not be your responsibility; it will once again rest with the British Airways leadership team. They are responsible for bringing us to this place, they are responsible for not respecting you and the job you do, they are responsible for not acknowledging the important and pivotal role you play in the success.
Yes Unite will take you out on strike, because that is what is necessary for you to be treated with the respect you deserve. Yes you will lose a little pay, but your Union has made provisions to give you strike pay because they believe in what you are doing is right. Your union is putting its money where its mouth is.
Do not be fooled into believing you will damage the product and the brand, the leadership team are doing that all on their own, reducing crew, imposing changes to product undermining the hard product and their most important asset YOU. Without you British Airways has nothing. You represent everything that this company stands for, you, are the personification of the hard and soft product that we are famed for.
You need to know we did not lose the court action, if we had we would not be going to trial. We would have been ordered; to pay BA’s over inflated legal costs, we were not. The fact British Airways cannot defend their ludicrous belief that your agreements are not contractual, will cost them dearly when they potentially have to pay compensation to each and everyone of you for the imposition of the crewing levels.
Please be assured the package is not going to be put at risk, BA need to shed the crew to make way for less expensive crew, they cannot afford to withdraw the severance package and part time contract offers as the schedule has already been set to accommodate the reduction. They are as the saying goes “hoisted by their own petard”
As for the rest of it…. It amounts to smoke and mirrors an attempt to bribe you, to deflect your attention from their undertakings in the short term. Why is there a need for a fixed monthly travel payment? Fleet transfers at Heathrow, what about Gatwick? Why has the ops and choice agreement been totally ignored? Why is there temporary promotion on Worldwide?
When you take the time to understand the answers to the ‘WHY’s” then you will be clear that the only course of action is for you to vote YES and stop the madness.
The assertion, that Unite, will be talking to British Airways in the near future, will be dealt with by the Joint General Secretaries, they will communicate with you in due course.
We are astounded that this leadership team would have the audacity to try and buy off the safety of the redeployment agreement and career link for a few paltry shares and a ticket. When all else fails these agreements are the safety net, we will not be party to an arrangement that isolates our friends and colleagues at Gatwick and sneaks compulsory redundancy through the back door…. free ticket, you can stick it!
Finally it needs to be said… it's a shame that you did not think about our customers Mr Francis when you were hatching your audacious plans, it's a shame you did not value your greatest asset, your crew. Shame on you the leadership team, for trying to palm off the responsibility for poor business decisions onto your employees… we are going to vote YES because you have failed us, our customers and our company."
If you want to read yesterday's "press release", it's here:
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/BAcabin...llotstarts.pdf
Possibly the most absurd sentence you can imagine: "Be assured colleagues when there is a strike it will not be your responsibility".
I can assure you it most certainly will be, as will be the consequences to you.
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Hi All,
I have marked NO in the box and posted it back. Could be the very first ballot paper to be received will be a big fat NO.
What's on the ballot paper you're all asking. Well, it's pretty confusing. The ballot paper itself just says are you prepared to take strike action? Yes or No.
Then there is the now infamous <YAWN> dayglo orange and black 2 page news sheet that doesn't say anything new. Imposition blah, blah, "we want to see that this company truly values its customers, in not causing them any future disruption by forcing crew into an unnecessary strike."
Then there is a letter...don't want to bore you with all the details (of which there are few
) but
VOTE YES FOR INDUSTRIAL ACTION
SAY 'NO' TO IMPOSITION
A lot of us are now saying VOTE NO IF YOU WANT NEGOTIATION.
So, 18 months ago it was all about New Fleet.
Then New Fleet was off the table, so it was about..er.. single nightstops?
Then New Fleet came back so Unite walked out of meetings.
Then it was about imposition.
Talk about moving the goal posts, Unite.
VOTE NO AND SAVE OUR JOBS.
Must dash...got a resignation letter to write to Unite and then go and spend my subscription fees on something worthwhile....Xmas shopping
I have marked NO in the box and posted it back. Could be the very first ballot paper to be received will be a big fat NO.
What's on the ballot paper you're all asking. Well, it's pretty confusing. The ballot paper itself just says are you prepared to take strike action? Yes or No.
Then there is the now infamous <YAWN> dayglo orange and black 2 page news sheet that doesn't say anything new. Imposition blah, blah, "we want to see that this company truly values its customers, in not causing them any future disruption by forcing crew into an unnecessary strike."
Then there is a letter...don't want to bore you with all the details (of which there are few
) but VOTE YES FOR INDUSTRIAL ACTION
SAY 'NO' TO IMPOSITION
A lot of us are now saying VOTE NO IF YOU WANT NEGOTIATION.
So, 18 months ago it was all about New Fleet.
Then New Fleet was off the table, so it was about..er.. single nightstops?
Then New Fleet came back so Unite walked out of meetings.
Then it was about imposition.
Talk about moving the goal posts, Unite.
VOTE NO AND SAVE OUR JOBS.
Must dash...got a resignation letter to write to Unite and then go and spend my subscription fees on something worthwhile....Xmas shopping
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I have a feeling that the decision over 'New Fleet' was made long before this little BASSA spat started and the economic downturn has been the ideal opportunity to implement it.
How was it that BASSA summed it up? Hoisted by their own Petard? Perhaps BASSA should have negotiated with this 'New Fleet' in mind? Too little too late.
As to the court ruling, BASSA went to court to seek an injunction against the implementation of new working practices. THEY FAILED TO GAIN THAT INJUNCTION. The fact that the judge deferred the case for a few months whilst not attributing costs NOR PREVENTING BA FROM IMPLEMENTING THE CHANGES cannot be seen as a victory. No matter how BASSA hypes it up. I truly hope that BASSA have a sound case in February as they are going up against the BA QC who has yet to lose a case!
I wouldn't rely too much on those 'back payments' boys and girls!
How was it that BASSA summed it up? Hoisted by their own Petard? Perhaps BASSA should have negotiated with this 'New Fleet' in mind? Too little too late.
As to the court ruling, BASSA went to court to seek an injunction against the implementation of new working practices. THEY FAILED TO GAIN THAT INJUNCTION. The fact that the judge deferred the case for a few months whilst not attributing costs NOR PREVENTING BA FROM IMPLEMENTING THE CHANGES cannot be seen as a victory. No matter how BASSA hypes it up. I truly hope that BASSA have a sound case in February as they are going up against the BA QC who has yet to lose a case!
I wouldn't rely too much on those 'back payments' boys and girls!
The ballot paper itself just says are you prepared to take strike action? Yes or No.
This is a bogus ballot isn't it? It allows nothing more than Unite/BASSA to say that they have balloted, because they silly fools said they would ballot if anything was imposed. So, to save face, they have to ballot? But you can't have a legally watertight strike if the ballot is merely a hissy fit. Nothing more than juvenile posturing.
Where is the reason for the ballot?