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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

turbantime 18th Aug 2021 01:01


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11096968)
Sad to see, I'm obviously Pro-vax, but, I believe its just a matter of education on the subject. Hence I continue the fight on this forum, but I would happily have a beer and chew the fat with a non-vaxer, and yes you will get annoyed with me asking you to get the jab, but I don't hate them. I'm the same with any subject matter I get involved with, it's opinions. This one is just very important to everyones welfare, both physical and economic (my point of view). A lot of anti vaxxers are not crazies, they just don't trust the vaccines being so new, so that is an education issue, not a stupidity, ignorance or whatever, that only comes in what you flatly refute facts given to you or just flat make stuff up. Then theres the media who is just as much to blame as SloMo for the slow vaccine roll out.

Fair call. I don’t have a problem whatsoever with the ones that are hesitant as I get where they’re coming from. I too engage with them as best as I can.

The ones I’m referring to are on the extreme end of the scale. The ones who mock people for getting vaccinated. The ones who purposely go out of their way to spread misinformation and instil fear. The ones who beat their chests about how they are not sheep and no one can tell them what to do. I’m talking about the very low percentage of abject morons who we have the unfortunate misfortune of calling our colleagues. If they capitulate, and don’t resign, then they are hypocrites.

Xeptu 18th Aug 2021 01:07

I don't have any issue with the vaccine, but that's only because I'm old and it probably isn't going to matter either way. I'm more concerned about the virus itself and it's impact upon my grandchildren. We haven't really been introduced to it yet, only the corona its trojan horse. We don't know anything about it other than it's very long and complex. That surely has to mean lots of capabilities. It really does have us by the short and curlies, so I don't think we should be judging anyone for anything just yet.

Agent_86 18th Aug 2021 01:09

633 in SYD today....

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 01:17


The ones I’m referring to are on the extreme end of the scale. The ones who mock people for getting vaccinated. The ones who purposely go out of their way to spread misinformation and instil fear. The ones who beat their chests about how they are not sheep and no one can tell them what to do. I’m talking about the very low percentage of abject morons who we have the unfortunate misfortune of calling our colleagues. If they capitulate, and don’t resign, then they are hypocrites.
Oh yes, open season on them for sure, no problem with that. I think that might be a general theme throughout society not just certain workplaces. Most will conform and pretend nothing happened though.

Australopithecus 18th Aug 2021 01:34

Just got an email from Alan…vaccines mandatory from late November for ALL crew in the Qantas group.

Turnleft080 18th Aug 2021 01:37


Originally Posted by Agent_86 (Post 11096979)
633 in SYD today....

Gladys still saying we have the harshest lockdown, well us Vics have 24 cases today with curfew, Bunnings closed, and the cops monitoring those very naughty 5 year olds playing on the swings.

Max Tow 18th Aug 2021 01:45


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11096960)
Good to see QANTAS has a plan.

Well done QF for positive leadership. Shame that on such an important issue so many employees didn't consider the issue worthy of a response.
I trust that the silent minority will accept the will of those who engaged.

"....a survey sent to 22,000 people to seek their views on vaccination. The 12,000 responses received..."

Gnadenburg 18th Aug 2021 02:00


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 11096977)
I don't have any issue with the vaccine, but that's only because I'm old and it probably isn't going to matter either way. I'm more concerned about the virus itself and it's impact upon my grandchildren. We haven't really been introduced to it yet, only the corona its trojan horse. We don't know anything about it other than it's very long and complex. That surely has to mean lots of capabilities. It really does have us by the short and curlies, so I don't think we should be judging anyone for anything just yet.


Yes, who knows the effects of home schooling and an already retarded Australian education system, when your grandkids have to compete with the world that saw COVID in a different light? They'll inherit debt and higher taxes too and have seen politicians cowering to extract voter support instead of a genuine way out of COVID.

If our COVID response was genuinely about our children and their futures, we would have had a better response from all.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 02:08


Yes, who knows the effects of home schooling and an already retarded Australian education system, when your grandkids have to compete with the world that saw COVID in a different light? They'll inherit debt and higher taxes too and have seen politicians cowering to extract voter support instead of a genuine way out of COVID.

If our COVID response was genuinely about our children and their futures, we would have had a better response from all.
USA $6 trillion in covid stimulus funding, all debt, another $2-$4 trillion slated to get around $10 trillion USD in debt directly due to covid economic stimulus. That equates to $22,000 to $28,000 USD per capita.

Australia $250 billion AUD in direct economic stimulus, no significant more debt due in forward estimates(due to stimulus that is). That's about $8000 USD per capita. Pretty clear who's kids will deal with more debt.

Those figures don't even factor in direct covid costs such as loss of economic activity and the general cost of health care issues spread out over time, especially for long covid.

The UK meanwhile, is going to be screwed paying for the NHS for the next decade at least, unless they unwind some benefits.

Who has the best balance of trade of those 3 to pay off the debt it incurs?

Capn Rex Havoc 18th Aug 2021 02:27

43Inc - The US is coming out of this economically - Everything is open--- Aus - well cranking up the debt- A billion per week? I don''t know the numbers but that per capita spread you mentioned is gonna close pretty quickly.

(Oh and for my eyes can you every time you type "dieing" can you please change it to "dying")

Gnadenburg 18th Aug 2021 02:33

We have a completely different economy to the USA. Comparing the two is borderline irrelevant. We have different challenges and vulnerabilities going ahead. How responsible you think the COVID fiscal response is for this country, is dependant upon your view of how quickly these challenges and vulnerabilities can present. Soft, selfish and lacking national cohesion. Not great for future generations.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 02:34


Everything is open--- Aus - well cranking up the debt- A billion per week? I don''t know the numbers but that per capita spread you mentioned is gonna close pretty quickly.
Not entirely true, USA is still down 30% closure on SMEs. Some result of permanent closure, some closed by choice to avoid the virus and others waiting for the economy to pick up. While things may be open, there is a general fear of the virus subduing travel and trade among some populations. This will continue for a while. The reason the US economy is doing ok at the moment is that Biden pumped a few thousand bucks into every household 3-4 months ago. If something is not done relatively soon about the financial situation in the US there is going to be some severe pain for them coming.

Britain opened and growth has since stalled slightly due to similar reasons. A big drag on the UK economy is isolation of affected workers not being able to be productive. You still can't work while infected, which means all those positive cases, plus their families and close contacts are non productive, effectively like a lockdown.


We have a completely different economy to the USA. Comparing the two is borderline irrelevant. We have different challenges and vulnerabilities going ahead. How responsible you think the COVID fiscal response is for this country, is dependant upon your view of how quickly these challenges and vulnerabilities can present. Soft, selfish and lacking national cohesion. Not great for future generations.
Balance of trade is all that matters, how the economy produces it, who cares, if you spend more than you make like the UK and US, you eventually have to face your debtors. US is already seeing inflation creep up, this is not ideal. Your claim is that our children will be worse off than the rest of the world. There's absolutely no proof of that, in fact the complete opposite is true. And if you think we lack social cohesion, well you need to look at the rest of the world more closely.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 02:44


Dont worry about the economy guys, the Chinese will bail us out!
Australia is on the nose with China at the moment, very little investment from them coming our way any time soon. However they are still buying our stuff on a massive scale, so there is that.

But hey, ScoMo signed a deal to sell Tim Tams and Vegemite to the UK.

Capn Rex Havoc 18th Aug 2021 02:47

This is from Chris Uhlmann - The Sydney Morning Herald -


You might call it a form of Stockholm syndrome, except that Sweden chose another path. Here, of course, the cognoscenti decried it as a failure because over 14,000 died of the disease. But how are we defining success? In worldwide mortality charts Sweden does no worse than some nations that enforced swingeing restrictions, while our pursuit of the fool’s errand of COVID Zero has seen us level every liberty, destroy educations and livelihoods and shut ourselves off from the world.

As noted here before, it took us 230 years, but we finally managed to perfect the prison colony. We have even invented a perverse new “Covese” lexicon where “freedoms” are not rights, but gifts bestowed by premiers and where the police complain of “illegal family gatherings”.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/scot...17-p58jdy.html

Xeptu 18th Aug 2021 02:50

Speaking of China, given apparently their vaccine doesn't work all that well. Their containment and eradication policy must work pretty well since they are doing the best by far than anyone else in the world.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:01

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2f5d394f59.png
Swedish GDP growth rate.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5ad30e19f4.png
Australian GDP growth.

So Sweden sacrificed 14,000 people to be about the same as Australia, sounds like a good trade :bored:. They have also spent Billions in Covid stimulus, so not much different in that respect either.

KRviator 18th Aug 2021 03:18


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11097028)
So Sweden sacrificed 14,000 people to be about the same as Australia, sounds like a good trade :bored:.

Except they are out working, visiting family, travelling, and - begad! - going to the playground without getting arrested! Yep, that does sound like a pretty good trade to me. :hmm:


Originally Posted by 43I
They have also spent Billions in Covid stimulus, so not much different in that respect either.

Except....They are out working, visiting family, travelling and - begad! - going to the playground without getting arrested! That still sounds like a pretty good trade to me....:ugh:

14,000 (their deaths) * 2.5 (our pop over theirs) = 35,000 Aussie deaths. 35,000 * 5.0M AUD = $175B AUD in 'statistical lives lost', without considering anything else. Still seems like a pretty good trade to me...:mad:

Turnleft080 18th Aug 2021 03:19


Originally Posted by Xeptu (Post 11097025)
Speaking of China, given apparently their vaccine doesn't work all that well. Their containment and eradication policy must work pretty well since they are doing the best by far than anyone else in the world.

Yep, they gave shipments to India did they not. India in a few months have gone from 500,000 cases down to a managable 25,000 cases in a few months. Whatever shit is in that injection I want some baby.

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:30

https://www.berlin.de/corona/en/measures/

That is the current list of restrictions in Berlin, a lot of activities such as going to a restaurant, require either proof of vaccination or proof of negative covid test.

Germany lost 90,000 to the virus, if you applied Swedens death rate to Germany they would have lost 125,000. But that's not even a fair comparison as Germanys population density is way higher than Swedens by a significant factor and it's smack bang in teh middle of the EU meaning lots of traffic through it. At a guess you could double that 125,000 for Germany quite easily in adjusting for density had they let it rip.

https://www.government.se/articles/2...-restrictions/

BTW, if Sweden was so open why are they lifting restrictions progressively?

And here they are;

https://www.krisinformation.se/en/ha...ecommendations

43Inches 18th Aug 2021 03:41


But nobody has been factoring death data due to lockdown restrictions. Also, people not being able to visit a hospital due to 'other' health conditions.

So mostly, the data is flawed.
Already done that earlier, suicide rates are actually lower for 2020/21 than 2019, seems life pressures from work and travel exceed lock down pressures. Who would've thought it was more relaxing to stay at home and watch tv with the family. Pretty sure mortality rates for stupid activities also took a dive during lockdown, so it had positive outcomes for a lot of things as a side effect.

The only real argument is that we are sacrificing rights during the lockdown, and how far do you go.


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