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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 04:13


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096392)
I am defending the right of people to CHOOSE. The reality is, the vaccine was developed under emergency provisions and the long time side effects have not been tested. I respect people's choice to take it or not. Delta is more infectious and it will infect vaccinated people as well. I also find it pretty immoral to suggest that medical assistance should be provided in preference for vaccinated people. We know that smoking causes lung cancer- I guess if there is only 1 ventilator avail - you would say that the non smoker should get it. People here are losing the plot.

I get what you're saying and I'm glad to hear you have made the right choice to get vaccinated. But the time will come when the Australian population has ALL had a really good opportunity to be vaccinated and where my patience will have been exhausted making "allowances" for other people's (IMHO) poor choice. Perhaps when I lose my job. Note, we're not at that point yet, because the vaccine roll-out has been an unmitigated disaster.
If I get vaccinated, I protect the non-vaccinated by reducing the chance of transmission, should I become infected by COVID. By an individual "choosing" to not get vaccinated, they put me at risk. I don't think that's ok.
A summarised/altered quote (wrongly attributed to the French President) goes something like this:
"I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom and the adolescence of my children, as well as their right to study properly, for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time you stay at home, not us."
I would have no problem prioritising ICU beds for vaccinated citizens (suffering from whatever illness they may have) over non vaccinated citizens (due choice, not medical impediment) afflicted by COVID - they've made their choice.

43Inches 17th Aug 2021 04:18


You didnt think 4124 cases that died due to Influenza / Pneumonia in 2019 was a cause for concern. Is that why you didnt advocate for Hard Border closures, Self Isolation and Vaccine Passports back then?
As I posted above only just under 900 died with flu in that season, that is not even from flu. Pneumonia is a pretty common cause of death for old aged, also being one of the ways covid kills you.

To put in perspective of 300,000 actual diagnosed flu cases only 246 made it to ICU. So the majority (of those that died) were not admitted to hospital with severe flu symptoms like Covid does to you. The rest of the 900 were most likely old aged or compromised and just had flu at the time of death. The difference with Covid is that last year when listed "died with covid" on your death cert Covid was the primary cause in 75% of cases, vs flu which would only account for 100 or so out of that 900 or around 10%. This year I would like to see the stats on "died due to covid" vs "died with covid" as I think most of the vaccine related will be a case of "died with" not "from".

Chronic Snoozer 17th Aug 2021 04:53


Originally Posted by Capn Rex Havoc (Post 11096392)
Chronic Snoozer - TSK TSK TSK - I have NEVER made a single anti Vaccination post. I am, in fact, vaccinated, and currently still flying. I am defending the right of people to CHOOSE. The reality is, the vaccine was developed under emergency provisions and the long time side effects have not been tested. I respect people's choice to take it or not. Delta is more infectious and it will infect vaccinated people as well. I also find it pretty immoral to suggest that medical assistance should be provided in preference for vaccinated people. We know that smoking causes lung cancer- I guess if there is only 1 ventilator avail - you would say that the non smoker should get it. People here are losing the plot.

Because we don't want to watch hospital bed confessions from the unvaccinated when they feel it's important that others learn from their experience, that they 'regret' not getting vaccinated and making all those anti-vaccination posts. It's like running into a burning building without suitable firefighting PPE and then complaining of 3rd degree burns.

Happy?


Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 05:52


I would have no problem prioritising ICU beds for vaccinated citizens (suffering from whatever illness they may have) over non vaccinated citizens (due choice, not medical impediment) afflicted by COVID - they've made their choice.
And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?

If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.

And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?

ruprecht 17th Aug 2021 06:12


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11096441)
And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?

If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.

And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?

Key phrase: “afflicted by COVID”.

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 06:14

Hmmm. People don't take the time to read posts, do they? They love to get all excited and post back on full-automatic...


And what if the non-vaccinated citizen does not have his or her 'Vaccination Passport' or Medicare Card in the pocket of their trackpants when run over at a pedestrian crossing and taken by ambulance, unconscious and critically injured, to an ICU?
Well, they're not in ICU because of COVID, are they? So of course they deserve a bed. As per my initial post.


If you can quote me an ICU doctor or nurse who's explained how they can practically work out who is voluntarily unvaccinated when presenting to an ICU, please post the link.
When someone is admitted to ICU SUFFERING FROM COVID, they've probably not been vaccinated - there are VERY few people who medically CANNOT be vaccinated. You could ask them or their family? Check out their anti-vaxxer Facebook posts perhaps? Call their GP? Wouldn't be hard to work it out...


And what of children who've just complied with whatever their parents have decided about vaccination?
Good point - I hadn't thought of them - we'll exclude under 18s from the plan. See, with discussion, we're getting somewhere!



43Inches 17th Aug 2021 06:37

It's one thing to maybe disagree or dislike the anti-vax, but you will never get a situation where an ICU medical professional will refuse to treat them, unless it came to a point the virus mutated so much it was a huge danger to them.

The treating doctor might put on a frown or an unhappy, "thank's for wasting our time", but they won't intentionally leave you to die.

Friday night your local hospital will be full of drunks, drug afflicted and the results of both, far more preventable and facility wasting than covid patients, vaxxed or not. At least lockdown has reduced this as well.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 06:54


When someone is admitted to ICU SUFFERING FROM COVID, it's pretty obvious whether they've been vaccinated or not.
Bollocks.

And due to minimum post length requirements: Complete bollocks.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 07:32

Errrmmm, if anyone is labouring under the misconception that vaccination is a guarantee that you won't suffer from Covid, best to recalibrate them as best we can. It is an issue directly relevant to when the borders will be opened, which is I think the topic of this thread?

Lookleft 17th Aug 2021 07:46

The whole point of the vaccine is to reduce the severe effects of Covid i.e. death from said virus. It is also claimed to reduce the impact on the lungs and heart. One dose is slightly effective but two doses are better. So the statement about being admitted to ICU is an indication of not being vaccinated should have the word "probably" added to it. Even then its is no indication of how many doses the person has had. LB is correct in that the point of being vaccinated is to allow for society to be able to live with Covid and have the borders opened.

Lead Balloon 17th Aug 2021 07:49

Exactly, LL. Two doses are better, but aren't a 100% guarantee that the double-dosed won't contract and suffer from Covid.

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 08:17


So the statement about being admitted to ICU is an indication of not being vaccinated should have the word "probably" added to it.
That's a fair point - agreed!

Turnleft080 17th Aug 2021 08:25

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ew-cases-today
The tracker showing 70% by 9 Nov and 80% by 28th Nov. You get that feeling when the dates arrive the premiers and their more powerful CHOs will shift the goal posts again.

minigundiplomat 17th Aug 2021 08:35

I’ve had both doses of the killer AZ to hold off the deadly and lethal Delta with its .5% mortality rate.

However, as easy as that choice was, it’s a CHOICE and I find it a little rich that all the ‘fraidy cats are deciding who should get medical treatment and who shouldn’t.

The vaccine doesn’t make anyone immune to COVID but reduces the severity. If people don’t want to have the jab, and subsequently die, then in my book they’ve made their choice and died in freedom.

But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

compressor stall 17th Aug 2021 08:37

Meanwhile in Canada.

"As soon as possible in the Fall and no later than the end of October, the Government of Canada will require employees in the federally regulated air, rail, and marine transportation sectors to be vaccinated. The vaccination requirement will also extend to certain travellers. This includes all commercial air travellers," his office said.

Torukmacto 17th Aug 2021 08:54


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11096532)
I’ve had both doses of the killer AZ to hold off the deadly and lethal Delta with its .5% mortality rate.

However, as easy as that choice was, it’s a CHOICE and I find it a little rich that all the ‘fraidy cats are deciding who should get medical treatment and who shouldn’t.

The vaccine doesn’t make anyone immune to COVID but reduces the severity. If people don’t want to have the jab, and subsequently die, then in my book they’ve made their choice and died in freedom.

But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

Totally agree ,
Im firmly in the camp that we have to work out a way to live with it . Vaccinations seemed to be logical way but if someone does not want to be vaccinated that’s their right. However if you don’t then you can’t ask to be treated the same . Why should the whole population be locked down , live with curfews , travel restrictions and pay the same for health insurance ? How hard is it to be given a QR code once vaccinated to get access to travel , sports arenas , pubs ?

machtuk 17th Aug 2021 09:17

Class division, who would have thought in this Nation! There's only 2 sides to this BS con job, pick one & live with it without trying to destroy your fellow man & abusing each other but I guess that is the Aussie way!

Chronic Snoozer 17th Aug 2021 09:53


Originally Posted by minigundiplomat (Post 11096532)
But it’s a choice. Just because you’re dropping bricks in you speedos doesn’t give you the right to insist others are vaccinated with serums which are, if not experimental, then fairly new to use.

Vaccinations are a common, run of the mill thing. But if 50 % choose not to vaccinate then we going to have issues. I don't have a problem with choice but it has to be better than just 'I don't want to'. With 4.5 nearly billion vaccines already administered, exactly who is dropping bricks in the speedos again?

Paragraph377 17th Aug 2021 11:09

So many people putting trust in the Prime Minister and Premiers comments that once this magical number of 70 to 80% vaccination is reached, it will be freedom all around! Really? Show me the evidence. Show me the accurate data to prove that this will be the case, that 80% will do the trick. Not 81% and not 89.6% but 80% apparently. Show me the risk modelling factoring in known and latent risks.

Keep in mind that Scotty just shoved a giant pineapple up the ass of the people of Afghanistan by ‘getting the data wrong’ (they didn’t think the Taliban would take Kabul until December) and he has been complicit in throwing millions of people under the bus. Yeah, sure Scott, I believe you in regards to your ‘COVID freedom at 80% vaccinated promise’. The PMC spin machine is churning out promises as fast as the reserve bank is printing off dollar bills!

josephfeatherweight 17th Aug 2021 11:16

I don't believe a word he says either, but 80% has got to be better for everyone than 25%.


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