Teesside-2

[SWBKCB]

Presumably you're referring to the annual accounts, where are you getting your figures from?

[highwideandugly]

I think..which has been mentioned many times before Newcastle with circa 5 million passengers and some freight can service the debt.So can re finance..as they do.

Teesside with circa 150k passengers and no freight ..can’t? They rely upon borrowings from the local councils who are in a pretty dire financial situation also?

Basically aviation is generally in a bit of a mess world wide ?

[SWBKCB]

ly upon borrowings from the local councils who are in a pretty dire financial situation also?

MME doesn't borrow from local councils, it is owned by TVCA and is funded from a development pot of money provided by central government

NCL is a Public Private Partnership between seven local authorities in the North East region and AMP Capital who each have a 51% and 49% shareholding

It borrows on the commercial markets, secured against its assetts and as Ozzy and HWU have indicated, its previous performance.

MME is starting from a far lower base and has spent a lot of money - the question is has the money been spent on the right things, both within the wider Tees Valley area and within the airport itself.

The principle beneficiaries currently seem to be those going on their holidays, which is all very nice but is it the best use of public money? It will need a lot more of them to make the terminal pay. 'Global connectivity' is on a par with the Peel days.

[onion]

All the information is in the accounts if you read it.
The issue with servicing the debt is that they have only been servicing the interest.
They need to re finance 60m within a year and 120m within 2 years, before you get onto the rest.
The issue you have now is that you won't get as good a deal as they had previously as
1. Interest rates are going up world wide,
2. As has been rightly pointed out aviation isn't where it was meaning any investment is riskier
3. The long term future looks bleaker than it did 3 years ago meaning again investment is riskier.

If they get a refinance deal all it ll mean is that the cost will be higher. Causing more hardship.

This is all on an asset that is in a negative position of a quarter of a billion pounds! With direct loans to the councils of £83m.

Now MME on the other hand owes money too but it owes it to the Tees Valley Authority if they go under the public still keeps the asset. Where as NCL maybe owned by the councils but the debt is a commercial debt so if it can't be paid the public lose the asset.

[GrahamK]

All the information is in the accounts if you read it.
The issue with servicing the debt is that they have only been servicing the interest.
They need to re finance 60m within a year and 120m within 2 years, before you get onto the rest.
The issue you have now is that you won't get as good a deal as they had previously as
1. Interest rates are going up world wide,
2. As has been rightly pointed out aviation isn't where it was meaning any investment is riskier
3. The long term future looks bleaker than it did 3 years ago meaning again investment is riskier.

If they get a refinance deal all it ll mean is that the cost will be higher. Causing more hardship.

This is all on an asset that is in a negative position of a quarter of a billion pounds! With direct loans to the councils of £83m.

Now MME on the other hand owes money too but it owes it to the Tees Valley Authority if they go under the public still keeps the asset. Where as NCL maybe owned by the councils but the debt is a commercial debt so if it can't be paid the public lose the asset.

Don't panic, the Saudis will soon buy NCL 👍

[Harold77]

Newcastle is going to be over one million less passengers this year compared to 2019.
Leeds Bradford looking at nearly 3/4 of a million less passengers this year.

That is certainly going to hurt their business case.

Teesside looks like it could be having the best yearly passenger figures for a decade.

[highwideandugly]

Regarding business cases..Are any of the revenue streams ever published ?

i.e. how much money has the Spa ,duty free ,cargo flights etc., helped towards the airport reaching the mayors targets?


Again..just trying to figure out pros and cons..is the Dublin operating or not?
Wonder if the newly announced Belfast Harbour service from Newcastle will effect the Teesside figures?

[N707ZS]

Cargo is fat zero. Costing money as they are losing hangarage fees.

[s_insania]

Regarding business cases..Are any of the revenue streams ever published ?

i.e. how much money has the Spa ,duty free ,cargo flights etc., helped towards the airport reaching the mayors targets?


Again..just trying to figure out pros and cons..is the Dublin operating or not?
Wonder if the newly announced Belfast Harbour service from Newcastle will effect the Teesside figures?

Does any other airport publish figures of how its duty free / spa’s etc make? :mad:
Dublin is operating over Christmas then back next summer, a quick search on Loganair’s website would tell you that.
Let’s see if Flybe’s Belfast route actually lasts as I can guarantee the Heathrow will get chopped

[Harold77]

A look at the last 20 years of Teesside accounts.

Teesside Airport Financial Year runs April 1st - March 31st.

Year / Passengers / Income / Loss
2002-03 / 691,191 / £7.4m / £0.7m
2003-04 / 724,962 / £9.8m / £0.8m
2004-05 / 844,098 / £9.7m / £1.0m
2005-06 / 898,597 / £10.8m / £2.7m
2006-07 / 862,288 / £11.2m / £2.2m
2007-08 / 758,533 / £10.8m / £2.3m
2008-09 / 604,778 / £9.0m / £4.0m
2009-10 / 280,195 / £5.5m / £8.0m
2010-11 / 250,703 / £5.7m / £1.4m
2011-12 / 166,360 / £5.2m / (£6.5m) profit due to BMI contract compensation
2012-13 / 154,112 / £4.8m / £3.6m
2013-14 / 162,115 / £4.6m / £4.6m
2014-15 / 141,320 / £4.5m / £2.6m
2015-16 / 143,054 / £4.9m / £3.2m
2016-17 / 125,566 / £5.4m / £2.5m
2017-18 / 131,745 / £7.4m / £2.0m
2018-19 / 137,689 / £7.6m / £5.7m (February 2019 TVCA buys airport)
2019-20 / 139,448 / £7.7m / £1.7m
2020-21 / 14,521 / £4.8m / £13.6m (Covid + Investments)
2021-22 / 83,921 / £7.6m / £11.7m (Covid + Investments)

2022-23 / 118,955 (So far April-September, even with Covid having big impact on KLM route operations)

This current Financial Year will be one to see as at 6 months we have 119k passengers so far with 6 months to go. We could be looking at getting near or surpassing 2011-12 passenger figures at this rate.

What we are looking at going through the winter period:
Amsterdam twice a day, think three a day in the new year.
Aberdeen twice a day.
Belfast four times a week.
Alicante twice a week.
Dublin over Christmas period.
Santa & Northern Lights plus couple other charters.

KLM doing twice daily flights is going to build confidence once again giving certainty on the route giving people the confidence to book.

[highwideandugly]

Excellent Harold..thanks..

[Gunfighter52]

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/milestone-reached-as-global-aviation-firm-lodges-plans-for-25million-facility/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo

[Harold77]

The planning application. The plans look really impressive. 5 new hangars.

https://www.darlington.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/planning/planning-application-and-permission/view-planning-applications-online/

[N707ZS]

Be good if they could fill one hangar at the moment, but as you say looks impressive, who's paying for these.

[s_insania]

Be good if they could fill one hangar at the moment, but as you say looks impressive, who's paying for these.

There’s always an undertone on here isn’t there :ugh:

[N707ZS]

The truth hurts.

[SWBKCB]

Good luck to them, but you do have to wonder why Willis have decided to develop an MRO business with 5 new hangars at Teesside. Lets be honest, all the a/c they've handled since they pitched up a couple of years ago would fit into them.

They are specialists in engine leasing, but don't seem to operate an MRO, or an FBO come to that, anywhere else? Am I missing something?

[highwideandugly]

Teesside is the future…aviation Center of the North..the mayor says so!

It’s off to Alicante we go!

[David Thompson]

Good luck to them, but you do have to wonder why Willis have decided to develop an MRO business with 5 new hangars at Teesside. Lets be honest, all the a/c they've handled since they pitched up a couple of years ago would fit into them.
They are specialists in engine leasing, but don't seem to operate an MRO, or an FBO come to that, anywhere else? Am I missing something?

Perhaps Mayor Houchen will hive Teesside Airport off to Willis just as he did with Teesworks , the former Redcar steel making site , to private property developers ?

[P330]

TUI Summer 24 goes on sale tomorrow. Whilst it will most likely start out as a copy of ‘23, we may get a glimpse of new routes from in the morning.

[Buster the Bear]

New hangars and 2Excel Aviation needing a new home.....

[s_insania]

Or maybe you could all look on the positive side for once and stop spouting utter misery and negativity. Never known a forum be filled with people who constantly look for a negative

[SWBKCB]

Or maybe the perceived negativity could be tackled by addressing the points raised?

2Excel isn't a bad shout. Location is good for their Coastguard work and gives some steady work rather than having to fill five hangars from a standing start, but the timing probably isn't great. I've not read the planning permission yet - is the attention to build them all at once or is it a phased development?

[N707ZS]

Hopefully there is not going to be any local objection to the plans like previous occasions.

[GrahamK]

Weekly Dalaman added by TUI for S24, operates by TBC (probably Freebird)

[P330]

Weekly Dalaman added by TUI for S24, operates by TBC (probably Freebird)

Looks like Palma stays 2x Weekly but Antalya looks to be removed for now for S24.

Dalaman is a Monday rotation.

[P330]

Elsewhere, in Ryanair news, we still seem to be missing Faro and Corfu for next year. Several weeks in, only Palma and Alicante are on sale.

Timing or have the routes gone?

[mmeteesside]

Elsewhere, in Ryanair news, we still seem to be missing Faro and Corfu for next year. Several weeks in, only Palma and Alicante are on sale.

Timing or have the routes gone?

Corfu base isn’t on sale yet - and it looks like only select routes from Faro are available so far (and from other bases)

[SWBKCB]

Flight reporting that the 2Excel 727's are moving in. Navajos and King Airs splitting between Humberside and Sywell.

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.2excelaviation.com/dsa-departure/?fbclid=IwAR3cLZULkmgxVrRCILqiUbYX_eZzZKdgblRVI-DqvUS-eM1eLjyFzLjgSws

[onion]

The truth hurts.
What's your take on the news of 2Excel?

[N707ZS]

I would say a good start. Would have been nice to be greedy and got the complete operation. But great news.

It's going to be interesting when we have daily Da 20s, L 159s and now the occasional 727 flight thrown in.

[highwideandugly]

Noise lobby will be in full voice!

[SWBKCB]

One of the planning documents contains this comment - anybody know any more?
Willis Aviation has invested at TIA in 2020 and again during 2022, as follows:

• 2020 – to develop an aircraft disassembly and storage facility, located in Hangar 1. This involved the recruitment of approximately 15 FTE staff.

• 2022 - building on the success of the 2020 investment, to create a Regional Aircraft Maintenance Centre within Hangar 2. This project includes the relocation from Hangar 1 and will create up to 45 new aviation related engineering FTE’s and safeguard the 15 jobs created in 2020.

[N707ZS]

FTE ?

[SWBKCB]

FTE = Full time equivalents - number of jobs created. Could be 15 full time workers or 30 working half shifts or any combination.

[N707ZS]

No way is that true. I would say just over 5 backed up with contractors and a company called ADL.

[Grumpy1]

As one of the 727's is to occupy hanger 2 and as Willis have virtually no staff remaining at the hanger do we assume that the aircraft breaking project is dead?

[P330]

Minor point on Palma for Summer 24.

The Saturday flights are showing as an A320 with a TOM flight number suggesting this will be a summer lease.

[Gunfighter52]

As one of the 727's is to occupy hanger 2 and as Willis have virtually no staff remaining at the hanger do we assume that the aircraft breaking project is dead?

The planning permission for the new Willis development has a dedicated "aircraft tear-down area", so it's still a part of the business plan even if it is currently on hold.

[SWBKCB]

So what of the "Regional Aircraft Maintenance Centre within Hangar 2" referred to in the planning documents?

[SWBKCB]

The planning application. The plans look really impressive. 5 new hangars.

https://www.darlington.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/planning/planning-application-and-permission/view-planning-applications-online/


Is it just me, or have all the planning documents disappeared from the Darlington council website?

[N707ZS]

Should be on here.
22/01182/FUL | Proposed aviation village incorporating 5 no. aircraft hangars for aircraft maintenance, repair, overhaul (MRO) and painting operations, 1 no. fixed base operation (FBO) building for business aviation, car parking with vehicular access, apron areas for aircraft dismantling, manoeuvring and parking, associated landscaping, security fencing, drainage and external lighting works | Land At Teesside International Airport Teesside Airport Road MIDDLETON ST GEORGE DARLINGTON (https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RKF1Q4FPJB600)

[SWBKCB]

Cheers - there were no documents in the document tab when I looked earlier

[Buster the Bear]

As one of the 727's is to occupy hanger 2 and as Willis have virtually no staff remaining at the hanger do we assume that the aircraft breaking project is dead?

Hangar is tall enough for the tail of a 727?

[Cautious Optimist]

To continue the MME discussion on the DSA thread in the correct place, it is true we miss out on almost all diversions these days when back in the day we used to be the second most diverted-to airfield in the country after Birmingham which only pipped us because it took Londons traffic.

I was once told this was due to airlines favouring airports where they have engineering in place, however I would have thought the arrival of Willis if not even Sycamore before them would have mitigated this, so can't be that clear cut. In any event there must be a reason

[highwideandugly]

No airline staff on duty
Not 24 hours
Parking restrictions
Other airfields equipment better
Bus availability
Aircraft now have more modern equipment

Might be other reasons?

Was Manchester not way out in front for diversions ?
Can’t remember when Teesside was the go to place for diversions..I must admit!

On another slightly linked theme..will the 727s arriving put a bit of a strain on available stands going forward?
Maybe it’s time for the mayor to extend the apron and improve taxiways now?

[MARKEYD]

Ryanair have added Corfu and Faro now

Same schedule as last year

[SWBKCB]

I was once told this was due to airlines favouring airports where they have engineering in place, however I would have thought the arrival of Willis if not even Sycamore before them would have mitigated this, so can't be that clear cut. In any event there must be a reason

Is it not so much engineering presence as such, but having the contracts etc in place, as well as grounding handling etc, so airlines go where they have these relationships already in place.

[onion]

Also use to come down to how familiar pilots were with the airfield.
When training was done by circuit bashing more pilots were familiar with MME.
Now it's done alot in the sim, so MME may not be as well known. There is also the schools element and general GA situation, in that there is a current push from management for what ever reason that has lead to MME being viewed as being unfavourable to light GA which is where airline pilots often start!
Hence there is an element of awareness when it come to diverts too!

[wanna]

Also use to come down to how familiar pilots were with the airfield.
When training was done by circuit bashing more pilots were familiar with MME.
Now it's done alot in the sim, so MME may not be as well known. There is also the schools element and general GA situation, in that there is a current push from management for what ever reason that has lead to MME being viewed as being unfavourable to light GA which is where airline pilots often start!
Hence there is an element of awareness when it come to diverts too!

From the point of view of being an airline Captain... the above is not so accurate. Diverts come down to; Weather (forecast), Nav aids etc, but most importantly whether the company has a commercial agreement and the airport has the facilities needed. (at least for my company). Of all the airports I trained at... It would make little difference to me as an alternate. An ILS is an ILS, a runway is a runway, Same S*** different numbers and all that. Airports and Airlines simply come down to commercial decisions and the incentives on offer to operate there.

[pug]

From the point of view of being an airline Captain... the above is not so accurate. Diverts come down to; Weather (forecast), Nav aids etc, but most importantly whether the company has a commercial agreement and the airport has the facilities needed. (at least for my company). Of all the airports I trained at... It would make little difference to me as an alternate. An ILS is an ILS, a runway is a runway, Same S*** different numbers and all that. Airports and Airlines simply come down to commercial decisions and the incentives on offer to operate there.

Totally, and the noise recently of the diversions from LBA being used as an example of why DSA should remain open have been giving little thought for the fact that LBA is minutes flying time away from Manchester and Newcastle, regardless of the travel time by road. They go where there are invariably established commercial agreements and facilities to cater for the operational disruption created by such diverts.

This is the problem, so much emphasis seems to be placed on the facilities of an airport (length of runway, nav aids, motorway access etc) and very little consideration for why airlines choose airports like Leeds where they are susceptible to poor weather and surface access. It’s simple. Passenger demand! These places have large catchment areas so the airlines make it work. It’s why Leeds and Newcastle will always usurp MME, and is why DSA has ultimately failed. No passengers = no money = no airline, weather constraints and inadequate facilities are just an occupational hazard.

[onion]

From the point of view of being an airline Captain... the above is not so accurate. Diverts come down to; Weather (forecast), Nav aids etc, but most importantly whether the company has a commercial agreement and the airport has the facilities needed. (at least for my company). Of all the airports I trained at... It would make little difference to me as an alternate. An ILS is an ILS, a runway is a runway, Same S*** different numbers and all that. Airports and Airlines simply come down to commercial decisions and the incentives on offer to operate there.

That's why I said also, as in if the commercials contracts/agreements are there then small things like knowledge and familiarity can be a consideration.

Currently MME loses out to others due to having only a few companies with relative small

[pug]

That's why I said also, as in if the commercials contracts/agreements are there then small things like knowledge and familiarity can be a consideration.

Currently MME loses out to others due to having only a few companies with relative small

In general terms it ‘loses out’ to not having based operators, that’s all. General awareness matters not one jot when you’re following the magenta line. I could be wrong but I don’t think MME could build a business on being a poor weather diversion point to be honest.

[Flightrider]

Just hope they don't start parking the 727s over the far side of the airfield. High risk of someone mistaking them for a Trident and setting fire to them!

[onion]

In general terms it ‘loses out’ to not having based operators, that’s all. General awareness matters not one jot when you’re following the magenta line. I could be wrong but I don’t think MME could build a business on being a poor weather diversion point to be honest.

Nor have I said that MME should build a business on being a poor weather diversion point?!
All I said was 'there use to be' other factors, I'm talking 20 years plus ago.
:ugh:

[The Flying Stool]

As an example, Jet2 will always try and divert to a company base where possible, if that isn't possible, divert to an operating destination. TUI do the same. The best we can hope for for diversions into Teesside are those operators who operate both into Teesside and other local airports e.g. Ryanair, KLM and Loganair.

As others have said, there's nothing worse than diverting at 10pm to somewhere where you aren't expected, have few staff on duty and have no contracts in place for handling, fuel, hotels, busses etc. In the case of an emergency, all of those considerations go out of the window however.

[Harold77]

Just hope they don't start parking the 727s over the far side of the airfield. High risk of someone mistaking them for a Trident and setting fire to them!

They are being parked in Hangar 2 and on stand.

[onion]

Heard tonight the engineering support for the 72s may not be coming to Teesside.
The person I spoke to was ex 2excel and still worked on a sub contract basis for them.
They suggested that the Cardiff base may of been better suited to the engineering support.
Hopefully something will be put in place to support the move to Teesside for the long term.

[10 DME ARC]

To continue the MME discussion on the DSA thread in the correct place, it is true we miss out on almost all diversions these days when back in the day we used to be the second most diverted-to airfield in the country after Birmingham which only pipped us because it took Londons traffic.

I have been around flying and aviation in the North East since mid 70's, I used to compile the UK diversion log as part of my duties as an ATCA on LATCC supervisors desk 82-86 and I can't remember MME getting that many diversions?? London TMA divs would go Brum, Manch, Prestwick and downwards in the days??

[N707ZS]

Teesside took two 741s from LHR and the staff then did a fantastic job, even managed to get an HST from the main line to come to the airport station. Other than that, it used to be F 27s from Leeds and the occasional Ba 1-11 from Newcastle.

[highwideandugly]

HST ? Read Inter City 125 😀. Did that actually happen? Interesting scheduling by British Rail if true..couldn’t see it happening these days!

[jmdavies86]

Just seen a post on Ben Houchen's FB page saying that Serco have signed a 10-year deal for the International Fire Training Centre (IFTC); the deal safeguards more than 50 good-quality, well paid jobs for local people and it brings significant money into the airport.

[teej013]

It is also in the Echo.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23136799.deal-world-leading-fire-training-centre-teesside-airport/

[SKOJB]

Train to plane working well!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63742917

[Flying Hi]

Train to plane working well!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63742917
Only 42 pax in the past YEAR. Wonder how many were actually using the station for flying purposes? Unless they'd Google Earthed it beforehand it must have come as a shock how far they had to walk.

[davidjohnson6]

With 42 pax per year, that allows those with niche interests to significantly boost the numbers. People like this, who go out of their way to visit stations with very little service
https://theghoststationhunters.smugmug.com/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-18644343

[Harold77]

The railway station has been closed for most of this year. Before then it only had one service a week on a Sunday with the Hartlepool - Darlington train.

[N707ZS]

Looks like the first cargo flight has landed a Cessna 406.

[The Flying Stool]

Not much cargo on an F406. It's load could be put in the back of a transit van.

[N707ZS]

Pre Covid they were quite regular on car spares flights, so nothing new really.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Looks like the first cargo flight has landed a Cessna 406.

I do hope the Mayor was on site to aid the offload and perhapa get a selfie.

[N707ZS]

Grin like a Cheshire cat.

[SWBKCB]

Looks like the first cargo flight has landed a Cessna 406.

From MME's FB page - you on commission 'ZS?

FIRST FREIGHT LANDS AT TEESSIDE
The first freight delivery arrived at Teesside Airport last week
It contained car parts for a well-known North East automotive manufacturer
The team received the call at short notice but were on hand at the new £2.5m cargo handling facility to handle the shipment and it was from the runway to highway in a matter of minutes

[highwideandugly]

Looked about 250kgs in the picture…good speculative outlay ? …as it probably would have come anyway without the £2.5 million spent.

Worked though, as looks like the next one is into Newcastle in an hour or so 🤪

[Wallsendmag]

From MME's FB page - you on commission 'ZS?
It would have been even quicker if Nissan hadn't built over the runway at sunderland.

[s_insania]

Looked about 250kgs in the picture…good speculative outlay ? …as it probably would have come anyway without the £2.5 million spent.

Worked though, as looks like the next one is into Newcastle in an hour or so 🤪

Certainly did with another due in to Teesside from Gyor-Per tomorrow… :mad::D

[N707ZS]

Looks like the fog is having the last laugh.

[N707ZS]

From MME's FB page - you on commission 'ZS?
This freight just used to go on stand 5R and straight into a van so no use for the cargo shed.

[Cautious Optimist]

When these series of flights happen they're always 50/50 split between us and NCL, you'd think they'd do a deal with one or the other :confused:

[David Thompson]

Looked about 250kgs in the picture…good speculative outlay ? …as it probably would have come anyway without the £2.5 million spent.

Worked though, as looks like the next one is into Newcastle in an hour or so 🤪
I'm sure those four photographs are pre-opening publicity photographs which have been used previously ?

[N707ZS]

Best one was when they ran out of engines requiring an IL 76 to fill the gap. And yes, that is the old photo with the two Willis guys.

[N707ZS]

RWY 23 ILS U/S. EXPECT NDB APPROACH fantastic in foggy weather and not expected to be fixed until 12/31/2022 2200

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.aviationbusinessnews.com/cargo/latest-news-cargo/air-partner-teesside-airport/

[SWBKCB]

So that's two companies so far that have 'handled' the first cargo flight. Curious.

[N707ZS]

When the second 727 turns up parking is going to be interesting.

[Beafer]

Wonder what the EXPENSES were?

Report into more losses at Teesside. The public have added a few comments on the page.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/losses-widen-teesside-airport-pandemic-25760770

[N707ZS]

Large numbers of new staff might account for some of it.

[SWBKCB]

This looks odd - haven't the accounts already been released and discussed? This is probably a report of some internal TVCA finance committee or such like.

Wonder what the EXPENSES were?

Grow up Beefer, it's explained in the article - it's the re-furb of the terminal etc, not the "Duck house in the moat" type expenses you're implying.

[Beafer]

This looks odd - haven't the accounts already been released and discussed? This is probably a report of some internal TVCA finance committee or such like.



Grow up Beefer, it's explained in the article - it's the re-furb of the terminal etc, not the "Duck house in the moat" type expenses you're implying.

---------------------------------------
A few facts from the latest Teesside Airport Ltd accounts dated 14th Dec 2022 for the previous year.

The latest file downloads into a pdf presentation with a lot of financial information provided by the company/auditors.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

Profit and loss account: -£79m. page 13
Liabilities: -£52m

Expenses are shown on page 15 of the filing history file = -£2.3 million for the year. Not refurbishing the building SWB. More to do with exiting contracts.
Obligations for the rail terminal.

Page 15: Summary of non disclosure exemptions:
No cashflow presented by the company?
No disclosure of remuneration of key management personel.

Airport Directors payments: £212,000. I think they are the individuals named in the documents, (councillors?).

Assets under construction £1m

Depreciation expense -£602,114.

Employees 115, up from 89 in 2021. Staff costs: £4.1m.
Admin staff: 45 (2021 staff 27). Operational staff: 75.

Companies valuation of the asset: £30m. Up from £20m the previous year.

A lot of figures, and losses. Airport Pension plan is now paid by the councils.

It will be interesting to see how long the Mayors TVA will have the funds to continue to prop the airport up.

A mention of the 50/50 split. £1m investment - Not sure if thats the south side company, or the North side?
Needs an accountants eye to work out the rest of the forecasts, and estimates shown. Some bedtime reading SWB ;)

[N707ZS]

You can almost hear the pigs squealing with their snouts in the trough as the mayor tips in more swill.

[Harold77]

This looks odd - haven't the accounts already been released and discussed? This is probably a report of some internal TVCA finance committee or such like.

This is the public release of the full year end accounts. There was a preliminary accounts findings announcement during the summer.

[SWBKCB]

This is the public release of the full year end accounts. There was a preliminary accounts findings announcement during the summer.

and the last full accounts published at the end of March - that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!

Seems that they have high hopes for Freeport status. The 50/50 split is for the Southside business park

No accountant but a couple of other things caught my eye:

Looks like TIA paid for the Draken hangar;
All borrowing is from TVCA (i.e. you and me), rather than on the commercial markets;
from memory, the councillor directors don't get paid - two of the current independent directors are also associated with firms who have been paid for consultancy
apparently the freight centre is in a 'purpose-built' hangar

[davidjohnson6]

What's the Govt / taxpayer subsidy per passenger ?

[N707ZS]

apparently the freight centre is in a 'purpose-built' hangar
Yes it was a purpose built aircraft hangar about 1939.

[GAXLN]

The operating loss was a mere £338 per departing passenger.

[Beafer]

The operating loss was a mere £338 per departing passenger.

That's a lot of money to lose per passenger!

But its not what you know, its WHO you know to be given a job at the airport ;) £4.1m - airport salaries inthe accounts

The management won't disclose the cashflow, or the key management salaries! Nobody is monitoring the Tax payers money.

I expect the whole airport site will be handed over in a couple of years to a couple of chaps who are good friends of you know who, given the the 3 muskateers dealings elsewhere in the area. :=

[Grumpy1]

Is the airport not in the process of being handed to Willis? They are taking over handling and has the purpose built freight facility not been given to them?

[P330]

MME looses based 145 NCL gains it

Aberdeen 2 x daily
Oslo via Aberdeen 6 x weekly

information from seanM1997 on twitter

This is on the NCL thread. Loss of base or loss of routes? At the moment, early morning departures still there from Teesside on the Loganair website so this news isn’t yet reflected in the booking engine.

[P330]

In fact my question is answered.

Aberdeen becomes 7 x weekly with Belfast and Dublin gone.

Major loss! Be interested in the mayor’s narrative on this one.

(Reference SeanM1997).

[davidjohnson6]

The operating loss was a mere £338 per departing passenger.
Even by PSO standards, that makes for a very large Govt subsidy... especially so as Teesside is neither an offshore island nor a remote outlying area

[SWBKCB]

There have been assurances given that flights are not being subsidised. The support is for the re-development of the airport, which was needed because it was comimg from a very low base.

[SKOJB]

Domestic traffic was never going to work for long, just isn’t the footfall nor surface infrastructure with NCL up the road. Best bet is to attract a few more bucket and spade routes!

[davidjohnson6]

Domestic traffic was never going to work for long, just isn’t the footfall nor surface infrastructure with NCL up the road. Best bet is to attract a few more bucket and spade routes!
If MME is to be for bucket-and-spade routes - i.e. for boosting the Bulgarian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish and Turkish economies, not the economy of Teesside... then why does it need such an enormous amount of Govt money and to be in state ownership ?
And no, there is no need to spend tens of millions of pounds just to employ a modest number of people at the airport and at a few TUI shops. If you want to have a make-work scheme, there are other ways which would give greater economic benefits
Teesside desperately needs investment to boost its economy... but much of it is being wasted so the wealthier people in the region can go to the beach without having to drive for an hour up the A1 / A19

[SWBKCB]

The airport isn't just about passenger flights but cargo, special missions for the MOD, MRO/breaking, fire school and industrial usage. There's also KLM to AMS giving the much vaunted 'global connectivity'. Will also be interesting to see what freeport status brings.

Clearly there has been an attempt to attract a wider range of flights and today's news is another disappointment, but investing to bring in/retain good quality, skilled jobs and diversify the airports income streams isn't a bad idea.

[SKOJB]

If MME is to be for bucket-and-spade routes - i.e. for boosting the Bulgarian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish and Turkish economies, not the economy of Teesside... then why does it need such an enormous amount of Govt money and to be in state ownership ?
And no, there is no need to spend tens of millions of pounds just to employ a modest number of people at the airport and at a few TUI shops. If you want to have a make-work scheme, there are other ways which would give greater economic benefits
Teesside desperately needs investment to boost its economy... but it's all being wasted so the wealthier people in the region can go to the beach without having to drive for an hour up the A1 / A19

Totally agree and seems it’s only being propped up by tax payers money. Once that falls it could become another DSA

[pug]

If MME is to be for bucket-and-spade routes - i.e. for boosting the Bulgarian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish and Turkish economies, not the economy of Teesside... then why does it need such an enormous amount of Govt money and to be in state ownership ?
And no, there is no need to spend tens of millions of pounds just to employ a modest number of people at the airport and at a few TUI shops. If you want to have a make-work scheme, there are other ways which would give greater economic benefits
Teesside desperately needs investment to boost its economy... but it's all being wasted so the wealthier people in the region can go to the beach without having to drive for an hour up the A1 / A19

If it can become profitable by sustainably growing its bucket and spade routes then i don’t see what the problem is?

I think the problem for the airport is that there is such a mistrust of Peel to the point where people think they purposefully ran it into the ground (as with DSA too). They didn’t, they just went down the low-cost route which ultimately didn’t work.

People often compare Teesside with Humberside, and in many ways they are similar. Difference is though that Humberside have shored up their main focus (helicopters) and seemingly been unwilling to bend over backwards to encourage passenger flights that may end up costing the airport to host, it is profitable still despite a significant reduction in passenger throughput since its peak in the mid 2000’s. Perhaps the answer here is for Teesside to be realistic in what they can hope to attract and sustain, and manage the operation to that? Let’s face it, it is in between NCL and LBA who have the lions share of the market anyway. KLM seem happy there, that provides a service to the region, there are the non passenger businesses on site too. It needs to find its strength and play to it rather than pretend it’s going to be something it’s not, as that’s where public money will be squandered. If it can sustainably attract more from Ryanair and TUI without costing the airport money then that should be supported, but I tend to agree with you in that it would appear at the moment to be the mayors vanity project - the public won’t be too interested if they show they are merely focussing on non passenger based aviation revenues.

[SWBKCB]

The Mayor has a significant democratic mandate to do what he is doing, I've argued in this thread about the way some things have been done, but what is being attempted at the airport isn't unreasonable. There is a costed masterplan to return the airport to profit, and it could be argued that without covid it would be on track

[davidjohnson6]

Yes, the mayor was given a democratic mandate to try to boost the airport.... but the voters expect him to do so within reason. He's tried... he's spent a lot of money... and there's not a lot to show for it.
Projects which involve spending money need a regular review (e.g. every 6 months or year), to evaluate current progress against previous expectations, see what the future prospects are, and evaluate if the money is being spent effectively or whether the future money can be spent in different ways to achieve better results

[SWBKCB]

Yes, the mayor was given a democratic mandate to try to boost the airport.... but the voters expect him to do so within reason. He's tried... he's spent a lot of money... and there's not a lot to show for it.
Projects which involve spending money need a regular review (e.g. every 6 months or year), to evaluate current progress against previous expectations, see what the future prospects are, and evaluate if the money is being spent effectively or whether the future money can be spent in different ways to achieve better results

Thanks - I've read a few project management books in my time :rolleyes:

You seem to be implying that this isn't happening? Is MME the only UK airport making a loss at the moment? A lot of money has been needed because of the previous under investment

[davidjohnson6]

After MME was run into the ground, there was a case for Houchen giving MME a big chance... I didn't think at the time it would work out, but the voters backed it, so it went ahead. Covid was deeply unfortunate for the project... but lockdown ended 18 months ago and Covid has ceased having a major impact on UK society for 12 months - plenty of time for any post-Covid latent demand to re-emerge. Loganair dropping routes is not meant to be happening - unless there is another airline about to take them over. KLM have been forced to go from 3x daily pre-Covid to 2x daily. Yes, KLM are selling 3x daily for S23 but with much of their short-haul network, they seem to be regularly putting lots of flights on sale, and then taking a knife to frequencies about 2 months before they will take place. AMS having its annual slots reduced permanently is not a good sign. Maybe with the World Cup, airlines have delayed announcing new routes.... but by 31-Jan-2023, it's time to take a big hard look at MME and decide whether profitability and being a local economy major boost is realistic. Zoom has arrived and is not going to disappear.... business travel has changed.
Middlesbrough, Stockton and the region has been largely forgotten by Westminster - the urban decay make me very sad.... I deeply want it to flourish again, but throwing such a large amount of budget in one direction just doesn't seem to be working.

I would love for Rishi Sunak to move half of HM Treasury to Darlington.. and for many of the civil servants to better factor the needs of the struggling regions into UK spending plans, instead of just seeing what's happening in Surrey. (Disclaimer - I spent some of my childhood in Surrey)
I would love for TVCA or Westminster to spend £10m+ on training hundreds of local people in strong IT skills - not just how to browse the web and send emails.... but to produce a sizeable workforce capable of writing complex software in C#, Java and Python, creating cloud-based applications and building new tech-driven companies. It's been happening in Belfast for some time... it can happen in Teesside as well.

[SWBKCB]

Again, you seem to be measuring the success of the airport on flights. And how many airports are back to pre-covid passenger levels?

[davidjohnson6]

I'm measuring the success of the airport partly on flights... but much more heavily on economic impact in the region. And I'm not seeing much of an economic boost from the airport since Houchen bought MME... the airport and all the public money involved just isn't doing as much for local jobs and the local economy as people hoped.
I'd like the public money to go instead on a very large amount of IT-skills training (serious heavy-duty IT skills, not just how to use Gmail) for the people of the region. And only people with local postcodes being eligible for the training. Teesside made its money from engineering... I want Teesside to make its future money from software engineering. Create a large number of skilled software developers in Teesside and companies will decide to start hiring in Teesside instead of London... and Teesside's economy will revive. The alternative is just a continuation of long-term regional decline.

[Beafer]

Looking at the Teesside airport accounts, and the lack of explanation regarding some items such as salaries. I think the current mayoral incumbent won't be in the seat after the next election.

The publics money seems to be spent like its confetti with little to show for it.

The Tees Works (Steel works site) was given away to a couple of business people, which was an eye opener!
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesworks-mayor-responds-dodgy-deals-22989843

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12351851/officers

More on the story about the transfer. Will they be waiting in the wings for the airport site? We shall see.
https://northeastbylines.co.uk/who-runs-teesworks-unequal-partners/

Who is monitoring where the money's going.... apart from Private eye?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-57028650

[SWBKCB]

The guys behind Teesworks already have 50% of the southside - as I mentioned earlier, there are some things that don't sit comfortably. Similarly Grumpy1's comment about the increasing role of Willis.

Not sure where the concern on salaries comes from - think I worked it out at an average of £35k. Considering it will cover the paid directors and essential roles like ATC and fire and their shift allowances, doesn't seem that unreasonable?

Whether the money would be better spent elsewhere is something you could argue with any public infrastructure expenditure (give the HS2 money to the nurses anyone?).

Getting back to the airport, our Ben's argument is that without his public intervention the airport would have closed (not sure about that) and that it is needed for 'global connectivity' and as a stimulus to growth by attracting/retaining skilled, well paid jobs.

With regard to global connectivity the argument is that you won't get inward investment if you can't fly there - not sure about that either, but that's the argument. In my view, by keeping the airport open and retaining KLM, that's job done and anything else is just gravy. Disappointing that the regional routes tried by Eastern/Loganair haven't worked, but they've been given a go.

The jobs thing is about creating an industrial estate/business park with a runway in the middle - hardly an original idea. FR/Draken has been retained, and the airport has got lucky with their expansion. It's also good that a deal has been reached with the fire school. The other prospects look more flaky - will the Willis vision materialise, will they manage to grab DSA's freight traffic, will the long awaited southside amount to anything more than a row of 'big shed' warehousing, will the Freeport make any difference - who knows, grab your seat and some popcorn.

[Cautious Optimist]

The armchair experts are out in force today! Makes me ashamed I used to be one 15 or so years ago 🤦‍♂️

Anyway, those saying "told you so", no you didn't...there is sufficient demand for all of the regional connectivity services we have had within our catchment, demand has failed to materialise because it wasn't stimulated and not because it doesn't exist. We are absolutely not just a bucket and spade airport

[davidjohnson6]

I've stuck my head above the parapet, saying with my best intention and for the long-term benefit of the people of Teesside, what I think the TVCA mayor should do - and I'm happy to debate this further; I don't own a training company or have any obvious conflict of interest.
What would you propose instead ?

[JKKne]

The armchair experts are out in force today! Makes me ashamed I used to be one 15 or so years ago 🤦‍♂️

Anyway, those saying "told you so", no you didn't...there is sufficient demand for all of the regional connectivity services we have had within our catchment, demand has failed to materialise because it wasn't stimulated and not because it doesn't exist. We are absolutely not just a bucket and spade airport

So the demand is there....it's just not there, essentially?

I don't see what's wrong with being bucket and spade, branded correctly following what people want is a good thing. The biggest success stories are those who know the market and aren't ashamed by it. The likes of Primark et al. The vast majority of the catchment want Costas, they want bucket and spades and that's fine. If they want anything more they have Leeds and Newcastle plus Manchester in driveable distance. Teesside should go after the bucket brigade loud and proud

I'm not sure why we expect so much from an airport that only exists because there's a Mayor who would sell his grannies kidneys for publicity or are ashamed when it delivers what people want

[BA318]

So the demand is there....it's just not there, essentially?

I don't see what's wrong with being bucket and spade, branded correctly following what people want is a good thing. The biggest success stories are those who know the market and aren't ashamed by it. The likes of Primark et al. The vast majority of the catchment want Costas, they want bucket and spades and that's fine. If they want anything more they have Leeds and Newcastle plus Manchester in driveable distance. Teesside should go after the bucket brigade loud and proud

I'm not sure why we expect so much from an airport that only exists because there's a Mayor who would sell his grannies kidneys for publicity or are ashamed when it delivers what people want

Exactly. Even LCY gave up and let the bucket and spade travel in and now serves around the same number of holiday makers as business travellers. If the largest regional airline can’t make it work or doesn’t want to then you really have to question if the demand is there. If it costs millions to make an E145’s worth of passengers a day aware the route exists then it’s not going to work.

[Jamesair1]

I'm afraid that the regional services have fallen victim to the 'USE IT OR LOSE IT' syndrome.

[Harold77]

After MME was run into the ground, there was a case for Houchen giving MME a big chance... I didn't think at the time it would work out, but the voters backed it, so it went ahead. Covid was deeply unfortunate for the project... but lockdown ended 18 months ago and Covid has ceased having a major impact on UK society for 12 months - plenty of time for any post-Covid latent demand to re-emerge. Loganair dropping routes is not meant to be happening - unless there is another airline about to take them over. KLM have been forced to go from 3x daily pre-Covid to 2x daily. Yes, KLM are selling 3x daily for S23 but with much of their short-haul network, they seem to be regularly putting lots of flights on sale, and then taking a knife to frequencies about 2 months before they will take place. AMS having its annual slots reduced permanently is not a good sign. Maybe with the World Cup, airlines have delayed announcing new routes.... but by 31-Jan-2023, it's time to take a big hard look at MME and decide whether profitability and being a local economy major boost is realistic. Zoom has arrived and is not going to disappear.... business travel has changed.
Middlesbrough, Stockton and the region has been largely forgotten by Westminster - the urban decay make me very sad.... I deeply want it to flourish again, but throwing such a large amount of budget in one direction just doesn't seem to be working.

I would love for Rishi Sunak to move half of HM Treasury to Darlington.. and for many of the civil servants to better factor the needs of the struggling regions into UK spending plans, instead of just seeing what's happening in Surrey. (Disclaimer - I spent some of my childhood in Surrey)
I would love for TVCA or Westminster to spend £10m+ on training hundreds of local people in strong IT skills - not just how to browse the web and send emails.... but to produce a sizeable workforce capable of writing complex software in C#, Java and Python, creating cloud-based applications and building new tech-driven companies. It's been happening in Belfast for some time... it can happen in Teesside as well.

Government moving eight departments including the Treasury to the new Economic Campus in Darlington town centre. Employing over 1,100.

Middlesbrough getting huge investments lots of new office buildings being built. These include high tech companies that you so desire to come to the area.

There are lots of educational facilities in the Teesside area that have expanded greatly in recent years. These are some of what is on offer in the area.
Aircraft Maintenance
Airline crew, Travel & Tourism
Motor mechanics
Computer from basic right upto high grade programming
Medical
TV & Film, Broadcasting & Production.
Chemistry, Biologicals & Pharmaceutical

Some of these students have found jobs/ apprenticeships at companies based at Teesside Airport.
Job numbers across the whole airport site has increased by a fair number.
Purchasing of local products to be sold at the airport has increased.
Revenues increased by £2.9m last year, so reckon this year is gfoing to see revenues increase further.

Teesside is on course to having best yearly Terminal Passenger figures since 2012. Aircraft Movements look to be best since 2017.

So Teesside Airport is turning it around and is going to surpass the first year figures of TVCA ownership.

Air Training Schools have increased the number of aircraft based at Teesside.

Draken increasing based aircraft with fleet of 8 Honey Badgers, new hangar, more services being transfered to Teesside.

Willis building huge complex, planning application in already and going through the motions.

Wide body aircraft due to be regular sight Teesside in 2023.

There's a fair few announcements going to be coming as we go through 2023.

[P330]

Harold - I’m interested in your comment about wide body aircraft being a regular sight. What are you thinking of here?

Looking forward to 2023!

[10 DME ARC]

I believe MME pay their ATCO's more than NCL! Not a bad thing considering the staff shortages at NCL which cause closures and holding there!

[onion]

Let's look at the facts, the airport is on track to have it best year for a long time, next year even with this news should see a increase in passengers.
Hopefully things may change with Loganair's position or Eastern make a return.
MME is much more than just passengers though.

When you look at it the airport only owes the 'taxpayer' £10m with a plan to return that money in the long run.
Let's just put that into perspective with NCL who owe the taxpayer £240m and that is only going to get larger!

[Grumpy1]

It has been suggested that the demand for regional flights is there but every none bucket and space route established under the new regime has failed. Should we questioning the basis of the deal that was done with Loganair that encouraged them to fly vertually empty aircraft when the rest of the aviation industry was locked down and allegedly provided them with immunity from competition.
Peel had an ambitious development plan that included building some houses but did not include closing the airport as certain dodgy politicians have invented and without the costs and debts that the mayor has passed to the tax payer. With the benefit of hindsight would we have been better sticking with their plan?

[Cautious Optimist]

I wasn't suggesting there is anything wrong with being a bucket and spade airport; or that we shouldn't pursue such routes! But there is more than sufficient demand for a nice even mix. I appreciate this forum and social media are designed for this sort of thing; but if some of the statements on here were true, Loganair would have the same information and not launched the routes in the first instance, who are you all to think that you're smarter than qualified executives?!

Wide body aircraft due to be regular sight Teesside in 2023.

There's a fair few announcements going to be coming as we go through 2023.
There is no truth to this currently, Mr Harold likes to pretend he's in the know, more so on FB than here, and what he presents as gospel either doesn't materialise or was available in the public domain anyway if you knew where to look.

[Harold77]

Peel had an ambitious development plan that included building some houses but did not include closing the airport as certain dodgy politicians have invented and without the costs and debts that the mayor has passed to the tax payer. With the benefit of hindsight would we have been better sticking with their plan?

Funny you say that this story was invented. When did this politician come on scene 2017.

So how come I knew a decade before he came on the scene that the long term plans for Teesside Airport was to close and Ingleby Barwick MkII to be built on the site. This comes from multiple council managers.

[Harold77]

Harold - I’m interested in your comment about wide body aircraft being a regular sight. What are you thinking of here?

Looking forward to 2023!

This info is in press release from cargo handling agent.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/teesside-international-airport-takes-over-cargo-capacity-from-doncaster-sheffield-airport-which-handled-10000-tonnes-of-freight-per-year-3952074

[Cautious Optimist]

Funny you say that this story was invented. When did this politician come on scene 2017.

So how come I knew a decade before he came on the scene that the long term plans for Teesside Airport was to close and Ingleby Barwick MkII to be built on the site. This comes from multiple council managers.
"Council managers" do not divulge such information, and if you want to close your facility you don't install a new radar, refurbish the terminal, reverse your decision to axe charter flights or release an expensive document through an international professional services network (Deloitte) debunking all of the general publics concerns and conspiracies

This info is in press release from cargo handling agent.
An aspiration and nothing more.

[SWBKCB]

Harold - I’m interested in your comment about wide body aircraft being a regular sight. What are you thinking of here?

Looking forward to 2023!

See the article linked at post #1585.

Note that it doesn't say "Wide body aircraft due to be regular sight Teesside in 2023."

[mmeteesside]

See the article linked at post #1585.

Note that it doesn't say "Wide body aircraft due to be regular sight Teesside in 2023."

Are people assuming that because Doncaster had services from Astral and Air Atlanta from Africa that this traffic may end up at Teesside? Currently being landed in Liege and trucked from there. I’d be surprised if it returned to the UK in my opinion but you never know.
Amazon would be a more likely freight target… more and more warehouses popping up.

[Harold77]

"Council managers" do not divulge such information, and if you want to close your facility you don't install a new radar, refurbish the terminal, reverse your decision to axe charter flights or release an expensive document through an international professional services network (Deloitte) debunking all of the general publics concerns and conspiracies


An aspiration and nothing more.

You'd be surprised what info you can get by talking to people regularly. Lot of stuff can be really eye opening.

You say you don't look to close something after releasing an expensive document through a PR company.

One word: Doncaster

Once the financials start getting towards the tipping point of able to sustain losses before they start making inroads to the equity. It was this why DSA has closed. They got towards the limit where the owners could shoulder the losses before going into negative equity. Walkaway with some profit or walkaway with an overall loss, that was the tipping point that was fast approaching. The same tipping point was approaching for Teesside.

[pug]

You'd be surprised what info you can get by talking to people regularly. Lot of stuff can be really eye opening.

You say you don't look to close something after releasing an expensive document through a PR company.

One word: Doncaster

Once the financials start getting towards the tipping point of able to sustain losses before they start making inroads to the equity. It was this why DSA has closed. They got towards the limit where the owners could shoulder the losses before going into negative equity. Walkaway with some profit or walkaway with an overall loss, that was the tipping point that was fast approaching. The same tipping point was approaching for Teesside.

Doncaster and Teesside apples and oranges. Going back to my point earlier, there should be no reason why Teesside can’t be profitable if a realistic approach is made to it. Doncaster is economies of scale greater than Teesside and a completely different kettle of fish, it’s why Peel have been reluctant to sell it on. I dont think it was wise to purchase Teesside for £40,000,000 when Peel purchased it for £500,000 just 16 years before, but the mayor clearly had an elected mandate to do so.

The point that seems to be lost on people is that the bulk of the bucket and spade operators that provided the routes in years past no longer exist following the low-cost boom. The landscape has changed completely. It’s why DSA never really took off and why Teesside (and Humberside) are at much lower than their peak numbers. Do t see it changing any time soon.

[Cautious Optimist]

You'd be surprised what info you can get by talking to people regularly. Lot of stuff can be really eye opening.

You say you don't look to close something after releasing an expensive document through a PR company.

One word: Doncaster

Once the financials start getting towards the tipping point of able to sustain losses before they start making inroads to the equity. It was this why DSA has closed. They got towards the limit where the owners could shoulder the losses before going into negative equity. Walkaway with some profit or walkaway with an overall loss, that was the tipping point that was fast approaching. The same tipping point was approaching for Teesside.
What a load of nonsense, and you're incredibly patronising too. Another thing to add to the list I gave as touched on by pug and as I posted in the DSA thread a few days ago...the fact they sold for "just" £40m with a reported land value of £250-500m, they didn't need the quick buck as some suggest and would have held on for the larger pay day if that is what they had their eye on from the word go

[ZULUBOY]

Not sure about other "neutrals " but the Teeside threads are my favourite by a mile

[N707ZS]

No one has mentioned the competition on the Dublin route Ryanair at Newcastle and Easyjet on the Belfast. Perhaps if Ryanair could be persuaded to return on the Dublin flight and say Flybe on Belfast the demand might be satisfied.

[Harold77]

I dont think it was wise to purchase Teesside for £40,000,000 when Peel purchased it for £500,000 just 16 years before, but the mayor clearly had an elected mandate to do so.

The real question has to be asked was why the 6 local councils sold their share for 500k to be split between the 6 councils. When the land value was about £40m back then, the councils could have at least sold their shares for many millions.

So in reality the mayor has only paid market value for the airport.

[Harold77]

.the fact they sold for "just" £40m with a reported land value of £250-500m, they didn't need the quick buck as some suggest and would have held on for the larger pay day if that is what they had their eye on from the word go

Teesside land value has never been in the £250-500m bracket.

[SWBKCB]

The real question has to be asked was why the 6 local councils sold their share for 500k to be split between the 6 councils. When the land value was about £40m back then, the councils could have at least sold their shares for many millions.

So in reality the mayor has only paid market value for the airport.

At the time the airport needed investment the councils couldn't afford, so they went for an external partner. Peel were identified has having the resources, the expertise and their experience from Liverpool.

The £500k always gets a mention but there was also a commitment to invest £20m over 5 years as part of the deal.

[Beafer]

The airport accounts reveal millions are being spent here and there, but there isn't any proper oversight,

Then there are the friends of you know who waiting in the wings to see how long the public gravy train will last. Will they get it for £1 or a nod and a wink?

My bet is the current mayor will be out at the next election, and the public bank will close. More of the TVA money will go to local areas.

Will the airport survive if the private friends take over? Maybe as a private jet centre, or something like a Bagby to break up the salvage planes.

Some who talk a good story will walk away with a large bank balance, and probably a seat in the House of Lords. :=

Out of interest do the councillors shown as directors on the Companies House listing receive any remuneration??
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02020423/officers

[SWBKCB]

My understanding is the councillors don't get paid

​​​​​​​To safeguard Teesside International Airport for future generations, Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has introduced new protections that will mean the people’s airport can never again be sold off without the express support of local people through a public referendum.

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/mayor-give-teesside-international-new-protections-against-being-sold-without-referndum/

[Cautious Optimist]

Teesside land value has never been in the £250-500m bracket.
In fairness this came from the prats over at SAVE Teesside Airport so I should have known better than to listen. Either way the point stands, if they wanted the land, they would still have the land.

[N707ZS]

The local rag reports on an export cargo flight. Brand new facility that took 83 years to build. And photo of busy Willis staff again.
First exports leave Teesside Airport's £2.5m brand new cargo handling facility - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/first-exports-leave-teesside-airports-25796788)

[SWBKCB]

It's a cut and paste of the press release on the airport website - aren't they still using the stock photos from the launch? Do these car part flights use the cargo centre?

[N707ZS]

Car parts were usually just plane to van.

[GrahamK]

Teesside is now the UKs most centrally located freight hub? 🤣

[davidjohnson6]

Teesside is now the UKs most centrally located freight hub? 🤣
Depends how you measure "central". If you're going to draw a line from Cornwall to the Shetland Islands and look for an airport near the mid point of the line, Teesside wins. The fact that there are a lot more people living in the far south of the UK than the far north, and there's a big area of largely uninhabited sea around the Shetland Islands is immaterial... :-)

[SWBKCB]

Teesside is now the UKs most centrally located freight hub? 🤣

I wondered about that so have checked Google Maps - they reckon 7hrs 50min to Lands End and 8hrs 20mins to John O'Groats, so spot on! :ok:

[Harold77]

A 747 is due in about 2pm tomorrow.

[Flying Hi]

A 747 is due in about 2pm tomorrow.
Who's??

[sunshine79]

Who's??


According to FR24 One Air from STN

[DP.]

See the article linked at post #1585.

Note that it doesn't say "Wide body aircraft due to be regular sight Teesside in 2023."

Yes, 'regular sight' seems to be a very generous interpretation of what was said - particularly as it then goes on to claim MME as a "crucial cargo hub in the UK".

[N707ZS]

It seems the hangar at Doncaster is taller than hangar 2 at Teesside as the 727 tail doesn't fit.

[Jamesair1]

Surely NCL being just a few miles N. of Teeside must also fall into that Central cargo hub category as well.

[Fairdealfrank]

The armchair experts are out in force today! Makes me ashamed I used to be one 15 or so years ago 🤦‍♂️

Anyway, those saying "told you so", no you didn't...there is sufficient demand for all of the regional connectivity services we have had within our catchment, demand has failed to materialise because it wasn't stimulated and not because it doesn't exist. We are absolutely not just a bucket and spade airport

Regional connectivity services need to be relentlessly promoted and heavily advertised at both ends. If potential pax don't know about the services how on earth can they use them. Unfortunately the various carriers don't do this, who knows why.

[Cautious Optimist]

Too right! Loganair have a big advertising board at BHD listing all of their destinations...except Teesside :ugh:

[Beafer]

Press covered the 747 arrival. The public have made a lot of comments about the airport and the jet.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/massive-boeing-747-touches-down-25830753#comments-wrapper

[N707ZS]

Interesting to read what the public believe.

[highwideandugly]

Sleeping Beauty..where have I been!

This thread has been repeated a multitude of times ? The PR of certain people have taken the government and local council dignitaries up the proverbial swanee(tees).Cost untold millions,whilst the people of Teesside,Cleveland,North Yorkshire suffer basic services.

Quotes……passengers are there…nope they aren’t.
Schedules should work..why?

Use it or lose it…ok lose it..

Services should be expanding exponentially…why? Apart from Aberdeen,Amsterdam and Alicante…it’s never really ,consistently worked..has it ?

Cargo…the future…actually , because of the Freeport if used correctly..could increase..? Possibly. But not much revenue?

Anyway Merry Xmas..onwards and upwards and let’s hope (sentiment apart) sense will prevail….cut the loses anyone?


Ps hope The 747 gets sorted at BAMC Cardiff after the fun at the airport on pushback!

[Saabdriver1]

Regional connectivity services need to be relentlessly promoted and heavily advertised at both ends. If potential pax don't know about the services how on earth can they use them. Unfortunately the various carriers don't do this, who knows why.

Probably that the potential returns don’t justify huge advertising spend in that old fashioned way. When most make decisions based on internet searches, advertising on buses and taxis isn’t cost effective.

[N707ZS]

hope The 747 gets sorted at BAMC Cardiff after the fun at the airport on pushback!
Would have been embarrassing having ASI scrap it at Teesside.

[P330]

The Loganair news has finally hit the papers. Low demand is the rationale provided.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/loganair-scraps-teesside-airport-flights-25850808

[Flying Hi]

Would have been embarrassing having ASI scrap it at Teesside.
Care to share what happened? No longer working in Teesside but still take an interest.

[N707ZS]

Loganair ran Embraer ERJ-145s at Teesside against Ryanair 737s and Easyjet Airbuses at Newcastle with little advertisement but with possibly a subsidy.

[N707ZS]

Care to share what happened? No longer working in Teesside but still take an interest.
Those that know the full story haven't come forward, just rumours.

[mmeman]

I see Loganair are still selling double daily Aberdeen flights Monday to Thursday with a Teesside based aircraft after the end of March- are they having a change of heart or selling tickets that they are not going to honour at the times they are advertising? Or am I being over cynical and thinking they are selling tickets on an early morning flight that they will then say is cancelled but you can fly from Newcastle instead to boost the numbers?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quotes……passengers are there…nope they aren’t.
Schedules should work..why?

Use it or lose it…ok lose it..

Good point, but you can't use what you don't know about. The aviation industry will be aware also aviation enthusiasts, but no one else.


Probably that the potential returns don’t justify huge advertising spend in that old fashioned way. When most make decisions based on internet searches, advertising on buses and taxis isn’t cost effective.

Do advertising the new fashioned way (internet and social media) as well as the old fashioned traditional way (radio TV press, etc.). Otherwise how can you possibly know if the potential returns make it cost effective or not?

As mentioned previously regional connections need to be relentlessly promoted and heavily advertised.

[SWBKCB]

As mentioned previously regional connections need to be relentlessly promoted and heavily advertised.

Can you give successful examples?

[pug]

Can you give successful examples?

I suspect not. It’s all economies of scale, Loganair could bankrupt themselves by spending £millions on advertising but when the demand isn’t there it isn’t there. Doesn’t matter how many posts are circulated on Facebook or how many banners are pasted to the side of busses in Middlesborough.

Pretty certain I recall Ryanair doing ok in MME-DUB back in the days of the old 737-200, different times.

[Cautious Optimist]

The demand is there

[SWBKCB]

The demand is there

So you keep repeating

The other ones I've been hearing for twenty odd years is that "the travel agents send people elsewhere" and "there isn't enough advertising" - don't know about everybody else but I can't go on social media without Teesside or Loganair being featured, and every Teesside Airport press release gets repeated verbatim in the Echo and the Gazette

The fact is none of the regional routes introduced since Peel are still operating. So what's happening?

[pug]

The demand is there

For what though? Flights to the Med in summer or high frequency flights to Dublin and Belfast? Is demand sufficient to spend £millions on setting up an operation and advertising the hell out of it?

From what I can see KLM do a good job of connecting Teesside to the global network, perhaps focus may be better spent on attracting operators to target the holiday market rather that trying to justify its existence by serving an apparently less attractive scheduled operation than Newcastle.

[mmeteesside]

I think the problem is our area has the demand just not at the economic price to make decent revenue and thats why nothing seems to last very long. Ryanair can manage to fill their aircraft though and not every seat is sold for £20…

[pug]

I think the problem is our area has the demand just not at the economic price to make decent revenue and thats why nothing seems to last very long. Ryanair can manage to fill their aircraft though and not every seat is sold for £20…

That and Newcastle can probably provide a better yield owing to its larger catchment area and can provide flexibility due to a higher frequency schedule and choice, so Teesside passenger have the choice to fly from there instead which dilutes the market. Ryanair growth if it can be achieved sustainably would seem to be the way forward for Teesside, they have the ability to manipulate the market and being a known name helps massively.

[SKOJB]

MME will most likely continue to operate at current pax numbers with the odd sun route/AMS connection holding the figures broadly together, albeit desperately low. Bottom line is NCL and LBA are a far superior alternative with choice of routes and airlines at LCC pricing and using demand from large catchment areas. The close proximity to these should make MME concentrate more on cargo, business aviation etc for additional revenue streams

[Asturias56]

"Originally Posted by Fairdealfrank View Post (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637089-teesside-2-a.html#post11359874)
As mentioned previously regional connections need to be relentlessly promoted and heavily advertised."

Newspaper
Expect to pay (http://www.marketingminefield.co.uk/print-advertising-costs/) anything between £250 for a quarter of a page on a local newspaper and £30,000 for a full-page advert on The Daily Mail.

TV
Spots on television (http://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/02/22/how-much-does-it-cost-advertise-uk-tv-heres-what-channel-4-itv-and-more-charge-slots) vary depending not only on the channel, but the show that’s being transmitted and the time slot. Also, if you choose to show an ad during a football game, the price may vary depending on who’s playing. In the UK, ITV is the most expensive channel to play your ads on. During primetime, adverts can go anywhere from £10,000 to £30,000.

Radio
Like TV and newspapers, radio (https://www.workspace.co.uk/community/homework/marketing/guide-to-radio-advertising) ads vary greatly in price depending on the length of the ad, the time when it’s played and the station. As a general rule, every 1000 listeners will cost £2 – so if you’re buying a 30-second ad in a show that’s got 100,000 listeners then it will cost £200.

Magazine
Out of all the traditional media, magazines are probably the ones that vary the most because they’re just so many different types out there, but as a general rule, they tend to be more expensive than newspapers because your ad will be seen during an entire month in comparison to a single day. For a magazine with a readership of 5,000 people, you can expect to pay £200 for a full page ad or more.

[N707ZS]

Asturias56 you forgot social media and web connections for promotion. Mayor has a posse with phones at the ready.

[highwideandugly]

The mayor does a good enough job at his own PR. and promotions!


Originally Posted by Cautious Optimist
“The demand is there”…….I think that argument is wearing a little thin now?

On another note..has Balkan dropped their second flight this year?

[Cautious Optimist]

It's not an argument and even if it was my previous posts put forward a far stronger case than those attempting to counter it

[s_insania]

The mayor does a good enough job at his own PR. and promotions!


Originally Posted by Cautious Optimist
“The demand is there”…….I think that argument is wearing a little thin now?

On another note..has Balkan dropped their second flight this year?

You know if you did as much typing as the hot air that comes out your mouth you’d know the answer. 5 second search of the Balkan website shows still twice weekly :ugh::ugh:

[Harold77]

The demand is there

Could it be that the demand is there but not the right product.

What has been given has been small capacity less than 50 seater aircraft and sparse frequency.
The answer could be increase frequencies to be more attractive even with small capacity aircraft.

The other could be price. Using small capacity aircraft means cost units are higher due to limited capacity, thus fares aren't as competitive.
So answer could be in medium to high capacity aircraft. The more seats the more unit price is shared about thus reducing fares to a more competitive level that is more attractive.
I'm not saying every aircraft needs to be around 200 plus seats. For regional markets the 70-120 seat capacity would suffice as the cost units are much lower thus fares can be more competitive and attractive.

So getting the right product: the route, frequency, capacity and price levels right then business is there for the taking. If the right product isn't available then people will go to where the right product is available.

[Cautious Optimist]

I hate to find myself part-agreeing with something Harold77 churns out, but he's on the right lines, with the exception of price. I think someone else touched on this but people were too spoiled during the 2000s so that now anything above an ultra low cost fare is chalked up as "expensive", people need to recalibrate what they consider an expensive [base] air fare.

As a footnote, and to clarify, I have invested a great many hours in the recent past into the areas demographics as well as delving into our own history to establish what should work and what should not from MME, which is more than most internet commentators have done, and whilst it is speculative, what is an airline or airports own assessment if not speculative? Perhaps with the rare exception, routes should only be launched if even a pessimistic assessment of demand shows a sufficient amount.

[Harold77]

I hate to find myself part-agreeing with something Harold77 churns out, but he's on the right lines, with the exception of price. I think someone else touched on this but people were too spoiled during the 2000s so that now anything above an ultra low cost fare is chalked up as "expensive", people need to recalibrate what they consider an expensive [base] air fare.

I agree with your sentiments especially regarding prices. Everyone has come soo fixated on low price as possible no matter what line your in whether airline, railways, ferries, bus/ coach, shops etc.
What a lot of people have lost sight of is cost over time savings, in that time savings come with a slightly greater cost.

For Instance say a cheap single train ticket for a 7 hour journey £55, a 9 hour coach journey £30 and same route by air would take just over an hour be £130, but a slightly larger plane could mean cost of air be £10-15 cheaper than the £130. So £115 be more appealing to more than what £130 be.
Now take that approach for instance to same destination but from another airport in the area might be £30 cheaper at £100, so even for cost to get to other place still have savings after cost factors included. But if that fare was only £115 instead of £130 then the slightly extra cost than other airport then is worth it over the the extra travel hassle cost factored to get to other airport so is more appealing as cost after extra travel becomes break even. So having a slightly larger aircraft could mean more seats sold at £115 than £130, so more revenue overall with passengers not going from other airport because the right product is provided close by. Hence my saying the price has to be competitive in relation to offerings at other nearby airports doing the route. (For Instance)

Such like comments have been seen on various social media posts about flights by numerous people saying why pay £30 more when travel costs to other airport still gives a good saving hence why don't use this route. It is about making that difference more competitive on price where other airport savings don't become a factor anymore to make a decision where they fly from.

Would it be that 5-6 hours savings be worth the extra cost. For a number of people nowadays the extra two hour bus journey over rail would get them going by bus cause of the price.


Like in my line of work a company said there is no demand for using certain route for a service, if there was a demand we will run a connecting bus to that route.
A few years later a company set up on this route providing service and has proved that there is huge demand for this route. To such an extent they have had to add more services to the route since starting with numbers going through the roof.

As I say if the product is right then people will come.

It is like the fire triangle: Heat, Oxygen, Material. Together you can get a fire, but remove one of them then no fire can be had.
With an air route triangle: Price, Frequency, Capacity. Get each them all right then you have a good route. Don't get one of them right then the triangle falls apart.

[Atlantic Explorer]

I agree with your sentiments especially regarding prices. Everyone has come soo fixated on low price as possible no matter what line your in whether airline, railways, ferries, bus/ coach, shops etc.
What a lot of people have lost sight of is cost over time savings, in that time savings come with a slightly greater cost.

For Instance say a cheap single train ticket for a 7 hour journey £55, a 9 hour coach journey £30 and same route by air would take just over an hour be £130, but a slightly larger plane could mean cost of air be £10-15 cheaper than the £130. So £115 be more appealing to more than what £130 be.
Now take that approach for instance to same destination but from another airport in the area might be £30 cheaper at £100, so even for cost to get to other place still have savings after cost factors included. But if that fare was only £115 instead of £130 then the slightly extra cost than other airport then is worth it over the the extra travel hassle cost factored to get to other airport so is more appealing as cost after extra travel becomes break even. So having a slightly larger aircraft could mean more seats sold at £115 than £130, so more revenue overall with passengers not going from other airport because the right product is provided close by. Hence my saying the price has to be competitive in relation to offerings at other nearby airports doing the route. (For Instance)

Such like comments have been seen on various social media posts about flights by numerous people saying why pay £30 more when travel costs to other airport still gives a good saving hence why don't use this route. It is about making that difference more competitive on price where other airport savings don't become a factor anymore to make a decision where they fly from.

Would it be that 5-6 hours savings be worth the extra cost. For a number of people nowadays the extra two hour bus journey over rail would get them going by bus cause of the price.


Like in my line of work a company said there is no demand for using certain route for a service, if there was a demand we will run a connecting bus to that route.
A few years later a company set up on this route providing service and has proved that there is huge demand for this route. To such an extent they have had to add more services to the route since starting with numbers going through the roof.

As I say if the product is right then people will come.

It is like the fire triangle: Heat, Oxygen, Material. Together you can get a fire, but remove one of them then no fire can be had.
With an air route triangle: Price, Frequency, Capacity. Get each them all right then you have a good route. Don't get one of them right then the triangle falls apart.

I think your hypothesis is slightly misguided. By your reasoning, any route will work which is ludicrous. You could have cheap, regular flights on a big aircraft from Inverness to the Faroe Islands for example, but it would never make commercial sense and would cost hundreds of thousands to operate the route and is therefore clearly not commercially viable.

There needs to be an existing customer demand for a route pairing in the first place otherwise you can make it as cheap as you like but it will never be viable as it just won’t generate the bums on seats required. The problem here being that demand is diluted by LBA and NCL with LCC already in place there offering cheap flight. The route needs to generate a profit otherwise it just won’t last, unless of course you chuck blank cheques from the Mayor at it.

[N707ZS]

Rumour has it the mayors cheque book is empty at the moment.

[SWBKCB]

The demand is there

For regional markets the 70-120 seat capacity would suffice as the cost units are much lower thus fares can be more competitive and attractive.

If we accept these statements to be correct, and seeing that mathematics is the theme of the week - what about the other side of the equation, where's the supply?

I think someone else touched on this but people were too spoiled during the 2000s so that now anything above an ultra low cost fare is chalked up as "expensive", people need to recalibrate what they consider an expensive [base] air fare.

Good luck with that - reading the FB comments on the Iceland charter, there's a way to go

[Atlantic Explorer]

Rumour has it the mayors cheque book is empty at the moment.

Im not surprised!

[pug]

I think your hypothesis is slightly misguided. By your reasoning, any route will work which is ludicrous. You could have cheap, regular flights on a big aircraft from Inverness to the Faroe Islands for example, but it would never make commercial sense and would cost hundreds of thousands to operate the route and is therefore clearly not commercially viable.

There needs to be an existing customer demand for a route pairing in the first place otherwise you can make it as cheap as you like but it will never be viable as it just won’t generate the bums on seats required. The problem here being that demand is diluted by LBA and NCL with LCC already in place there offering cheap flight. The route needs to generate a profit otherwise it just won’t last, unless of course you chuck blank cheques from the Mayor at it.

Exactly, this is the problem when stating ‘there is demand’. Of course there is demand, but is it sufficiently strong enough to support a service day in day out? Teesside core market is smaller than Leeds and Newcastle so the battle will always be competing with airports with access to more people. For instance, I’m sure there are people travelling between Teesside and Dubai every day, does that mean there is demand for a service to Dubai from Teesside? An extreme example perhaps, but ticket tracing models don’t account for things such as choice and flexibility in isolation. Also in the U.K. it doesn’t account for what people like to define as a catchment area. Manchesters catchment area isn’t just Manchester, because it’s offering is so large the North and Midlands is it’s catchment area. Similar goes for the North East, Teesside is in the Newcastle and Leeds catchment area, but it doesn’t quite work the other way around. How do you convince an airline to invest millions into operating from an airport that has less appeal to larger numbers of people?

Not knocking Teesside at all, I hope it does find its feet again.

[Cautious Optimist]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying any route will work, of course not. Cardiff was probably the wildcard in our recent history

what about the other side of the equation, where's the supply?
There enlies the real issue, the ATR72 is the only game in town, Saabs, Jetstreams and Dorniers all a dying breed with nothing to replace them, we need 30-50 seat turboprops ideally

[Hipennine]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying any route will work, of course not. Cardiff was probably the wildcard in our recent history


There enlies the real issue, the ATR72 is the only game in town, Saabs, Jetstreams and Dorniers all a dying breed with nothing to replace them, we need 30-50 seat turboprops ideally
If there was a significant viable market in smaller aircraft regional flying, manufacturers would be designing and building those aircraft. The viable ops are in specialist niche routes. Wrt MME, I would suggest that Aberdeen is the only such route, and that will become increasingly un-sustainable as the oil sector winds down in NE Scotland.

[pug]

If there was a significant viable market in smaller aircraft regional flying, manufacturers would be designing and building those aircraft. The viable ops are in specialist niche routes. Wrt MME, I would suggest that Aberdeen is the only such route, and that will become increasingly un-sustainable as the oil sector winds down in NE Scotland.

Exactly this. Times have changed, the industry has moved on from the days of small commuter airlines serving the peripheral airports in the U.K. Everything has been consolidated onto larger aircraft operating from fewer more well situated airports that can pull in passengers from a wider radius but also have millions of potential customers on their doorstep.

Unless you are offering a very niche connection where industry will happily pay over the odds for a ticket to position workers around, there really isn’t the demand for the smaller 30-50 seat airliners in this country any more. ABZ being a great example and one which itself is dropping off now.

I can only foresee it becoming harder for small regional airports in the U.K. to become financially sustainable serving passenger flights with the increasing costs in doing so. Get a reasonable operation from Ryanair or something and the ancillary revenue generated might cover those costs, but otherwise it doesn’t bode too well currently in my opinion. Not just a Teesside issue.

[highwideandugly]

Good post Pug..

To say demand is there , is this now just naturally historical?

Aberdeen…yes for now , a dynamic market.
Amsterdam..again an unequalled choice for world wide connectivity.
Alicante..always popular.
Palma..the same.

But there lies the problem..other than those four..it’s going to be difficult to generate new routes and get them up and running for a few years without a cost risk to the airlines or a dilution of nearby established markets?

[pug]

Good post Pug..

To say demand is there , is this now just naturally historical?

Aberdeen…yes for now , a dynamic market.
Amsterdam..again an unequalled choice for world wide connectivity.
Alicante..always popular.
Palma..the same.

But there lies the problem..other than those four..it’s going to be difficult to generate new routes and get them up and running for a few years without a cost risk to the airlines or a dilution of nearby established markets?

This is another problem with crude ticket tracing analysis. Whilst it’s a good way of establishing overall propensity to fly in any given region, the route breakdowns are problematic. I think it’s reasonable to believe that the single most common airport Teesside passengers use is Newcastle. So say Teesside region generates 30,000 air passengers per year between itself and Copenhagen and Newcastle accounts for say 70,000, it’s a much safer bet to run the route from Newcastle and the Teesside based passengers are still an important portion of the NCL-CPH market. Should the same airline decide to operate the route from Teesside as well as Newcastle, you would effectively double your costs and perhaps gain a few extra passengers from York (for instance), but probably not enough to justify increasing your costs. In all likelihood Newcastle would have a decent frequency which appeals to the passengers but that would be sacrificed to operate alongside Teesside. So in conclusion it makes far more sense from an operators perspective to concentrate on just serving Newcastle. Same principle applies if it is a competitor airline, market is diluted, frequency becomes threatened. This is then compounded by Leeds Bradford to the South, again same principle applies. So the only way that a new route would work like this is as was previously mentioned, a niche where the operator is guaranteed a sufficient number of people travelling in high value tickets to service industry. Appreciate this is a very round the houses explanation of what I mean.

Add to all this the number of leisure operators that have disappeared over the last 20 years.. Thomas Cook, Airtours/Mytravel, a plethora of IT specialists that had multiple weekly flights to Turkey. All the low cost airlines like BMIBaby, Globespan, FlyBe (mk1), going further back Go, Mytravel lite etc. plus all those familiar names like Air2000, Britannia, Astreus, XL, Monarch and the overseas ones that used to position from the Med like Futura, Air Europa, Spanair, Iberworld, Eurocypria, Cyprus Airways etc etc I’m sure there are loads that I’ve forgotten. How many of those still exist? How many large tour operators still exist? These days there isn’t much in the U.K. except for TUI, Jet2, Ryanair and Easyjet. They all operate from Newcastle and Leeds. Much like Teesside, Doncaster was built when a lot more of those operators were around.

KLM do a great job for the U.K. regions, long may that continue. There is undoubtably some untapped/unserved demand for more bucket and spade destinations. But apart from that, Teesside should continue to develop its GA businesses to give it a USP/undisputed core business.

[SWBKCB]

2006 was peak MME - some numbers comparing pax stats between then and the last comparable year

2006 - NCL 5,431,976, LBA 2,792,686, MME 917,963

2019 - NCL 5,199,000, LBA 3,992,862, MME 150,735

[Jamesair1]

Re pax demand on routes......when the last attempt at a NCL - LGW service failed the reason given by the operator was.....there is no shortage of pax between NCL and LGW but very little demand between LGW and NCL illustrating that their must be a good two way sourcing of pax to make a route work. Obviously, this argument doesn't apply to SUN ROUTES, more applicable to domestic and business routes.

[Beafer]

Grapevine says No Avgas until 13th January if your planning on a refuel at Teesside International.

I thought the mayor might have had his photo taken next to the bowser ;)

[David Thompson]

Grapevine says No Avgas until 13th January if your planning on a refuel at Teesside International.
I thought the mayor might have had his photo taken next to the bowser ;)

The 'Grapevine' is called a NOTAM and is there in plain sight for all to see .

[N707ZS]

Has Willis taken over the avgas?

[jmdavies86]

There enlies the real issue, the ATR72 is the only game in town, Saabs, Jetstreams and Dorniers all a dying breed with nothing to replace them, we need 30-50 seat turboprops ideally

Your point about there not being anything to replace aircraft like Dorniers simply isn't true as there's the new Deutsche Aircraft D328eco (https://www.deutscheaircraft.com/products/d328-eco), which will sit right in the middle of the 30-50 seat market with 38-40 seats.

[Asturias56]

"Service entry for the D328eco – a stretched and modernised version of the original Dornier D328 twin-turboprop – is due in the second half of 2026."

Assuming they can raise the cash and get it certified of course

[SWBKCB]

If we accept these statements to be correct, and seeing that mathematics is the theme of the week - what about the other side of the equation, where's the supply?



and then somebody to operate it?

[Jamesair1]

and what about the various ATR aircraft which come in various sizes?

[SWBKCB]

and what about the various ATR aircraft which come in various sizes?

Again, as well as the aircraft types that are available, who would operate them?

[highwideandugly]

Of course it’s a double edged sword.


.the amount of money the mayor has spent(is spending)quite rightly, on the local rail network..lines,platforms,stations etc. count massively against the airport succeeding with a UK domestic air network?

That market is a tough one anyway..and when the railways get their act together then it becomes even tougher?

[SWBKCB]

Train not much use for Belfast or Dublin (though in my organisation, I had to but forward a business case for flying rather than surface transport... :rolleyes:)

[BA318]

Your point about there not being anything to replace aircraft like Dorniers simply isn't true as there's the new Deutsche Aircraft D328eco (https://www.deutscheaircraft.com/products/d328-eco), which will sit right in the middle of the 30-50 seat market with 38-40 seats.

This is the third or forth attempt at trying to relaunch the D328. It was an expensive aircraft the first time round with few others than Scot Airways and Sun Air seemingly able to make it work for long periods of time. I wouldn’t pin my hopes on it.

[Beafer]

Has Willis taken over the avgas?

Not sure, thought it may have been Bens mate who planned the air show parking. Think he runs the security as well :rolleyes:

[David Thompson]

Grapevine says No Avgas until 13th January if your planning on a refuel at Teesside International.

I thought the mayor might have had his photo taken next to the bowser ;)
Avgas is now available again and the NOTAM removed as peace settled once more onto the Teesside - 2 thread.......................hurrah !

[N707ZS]

David we reserve the right to throw sandals from the back as necessary.
video sandle throwing - Google Search (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=video+sandle+throwing&source=hp&ei=igG6Y_b8GMCdhbIPrNCNoAU&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAY7oPmkqSXOfHzgk179F_QYZiiUtBdQv6&ved=0ahUKEwj26YjQz7b8AhXATkEAHSxoA1QQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=video+sandle+throwing&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCAgAEAgQHhANOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRA zoRCC4QgwEQxwEQsQMQ0QMQgAQ6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggILhCxAxCDAToOC C4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOg4ILhCABBCxA xCDARDUAjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQ1AI6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAToTC C4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QMQCjoKCAAQgAQQsQMQCjoNCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEQC joKCC4QgAQQ1AIQCjoICC4QgAQQ1AI6BQgAEIAEOgUIABCxAzoLCC4QgAQQx wEQ0QM6BQguEIAEOgcIABCABBAKOgcIABCABBANOgYIABAeEA06CwgAEB4QD xDxBBANOggIABAeEA8QDToGCAAQFhAeOgsIABAWEB4Q8QQQCjoKCAAQBRAeE A8QDToKCAAQCBAeEA0QClAAWJ8wYP0yaABwAHgAgAFmiAG5DpIBBDE5LjKYA QCgAQE&sclient=gws-wiz#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b9e011fc,vid:bM5SJMsfmh8)

[Beafer]

David we reserve the right to throw sandals from the back as necessary.
video sandle throwing - Google Search (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=video+sandle+throwing&source=hp&ei=igG6Y_b8GMCdhbIPrNCNoAU&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAY7oPmkqSXOfHzgk179F_QYZiiUtBdQv6&ved=0ahUKEwj26YjQz7b8AhXATkEAHSxoA1QQ4dUDCAo&uact=5&oq=video+sandle+throwing&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCAgAEAgQHhANOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRA zoRCC4QgwEQxwEQsQMQ0QMQgAQ6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggILhCxAxCDAToOC C4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOg4ILhCABBCxA xCDARDUAjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQ1AI6CAgAEIAEELEDOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAToTC C4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QMQCjoKCAAQgAQQsQMQCjoNCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEQC joKCC4QgAQQ1AIQCjoICC4QgAQQ1AI6BQgAEIAEOgUIABCxAzoLCC4QgAQQx wEQ0QM6BQguEIAEOgcIABCABBAKOgcIABCABBANOgYIABAeEA06CwgAEB4QD xDxBBANOggIABAeEA8QDToGCAAQFhAeOgsIABAWEB4Q8QQQCjoKCAAQBRAeE A8QDToKCAAQCBAeEA0QClAAWJ8wYP0yaABwAHgAgAFmiAG5DpIBBDE5LjKYA QCgAQE&sclient=gws-wiz#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:b9e011fc,vid:bM5SJMsfmh8)

I agree, President Bush had a sandal thrown at him from memory.

Airport is in the news again. A lot of public comments again.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/wind-turbine-plan-sparks-concerns-25913545

[highwideandugly]

With four schedules today, the usual Amsterdam and Aberdeen. I wonder how the Spa,Duty Free and bars are managing to make money? Lots of other jobs up for grabs in the mayors Facebook page…does he know something we don’t?

Are they being subsidised by the owners (local tax payers) .

It makes you think….especially looking at Cardiff and Doncaster(sic) amongst others?

[Beafer]

The mayor has made the headlines again today after being mentioned in parliament!

Will there be an investigation into the deal which has handed over 90% of the land to the same people who he's involved with at the airport?

I wonder if they are all part of the same lodge fraternity? :=

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23244786.ben-houchen-responds-teesworks-crony-contracts-claim/

[Grumpy1]

Similar questions have been asked in respect of the delayed and over budget south side development that is now in the hands of the mayors donors.

[SWBKCB]

With four schedules today, the usual Amsterdam and Aberdeen. I wonder how the Spa,Duty Free and bars are managing to make money? Lots of other jobs up for grabs in the mayors Facebook page…does he know something we don’t?

Are they being subsidised by the owners (local tax payers) .

It makes you think….especially looking at Cardiff and Doncaster(sic) amongst others?

Just a reminder that the Mayor's pot comes from Central govt not council tax, so not just local tax payers.

[highwideandugly]

Ok..using government pot…but surely better spent on other areas of Teesside? So ..tell me..local taxpayers aren’t suffering while a few thousand well healed get away to Alicante!

Two airports either side within 50 miles..reality needs to hit🤔

[N707ZS]

Alicante is not well healed tickets were £5.99 recently. 50 miles is 50 miles and an hour and a half.

[onion]

Ok..using government pot…but surely better spent on other areas of Teesside? So ..tell me..local taxpayers aren’t suffering while a few thousand well healed get away to Alicante!

Two airports either side within 50 miles..reality needs to hit🤔

By your logic both NCL and Leeds need to close and everything put in at Teesside, which owes less to tax payers than NCL but let's not talk about that!

[highwideandugly]

Respectfully suggest that Newcastle and Leeds economies and cities are a little way ahead of certain parts of Teesside!

Another 15 million gifted to the mayor for the hangers…he’s a good wheeler dealer methinks!

Wonder if the other airports countrywide could spin the same yarns to obtain development money for themselves?

[zed3]

I am in Scarborough, more or less equidistant from Leeds, Humberside and Teesside airports. We have always used Leeds since moving here nine years ago. However the journey to Leeds is ever longer and more congested, more than two hours last time. Last November Management used Teesside to fly back to the Netherlands with KLM. Lovely little airport, 90 mins. drive, easy access with great parking directly opposite the terminal and if you spend money on a cup of coffee, two hours parking is free. To us it's a 'no brainer' and we fly out again to the Netherlands next Wednesday... five days parking L30.

[GrahamK]

By your logic both NCL and Leeds need to close and everything put in at Teesside, which owes less to tax payers than NCL but let's not talk about that!

I would suggest NCL is a much more sustainable business than MME overall though,..

[N707ZS]

Another 15 million gifted to the mayor for the hangars…he’s a good wheeler dealer methinks!


Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

[David Thompson]

Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.
It's on Ben's Facebook Page and presumably for the Willis development rather than for the much needed GA hangarage ?

"We’ve secured another £1️⃣5️⃣m from Govt today!

Over recent weeks I’ve been working with Government to secure funding for:

✈️ New Hangars at Teesside Airport in addition to the investment being made by Willis and Draken expanding at our airport

🏬 New developments at Gresham in Middlesbrough as part of the work we’re planning as part of the new Development Corporation

With huge demand for hangars at the airport and an eye sore in Gresham that’s been sat empty for years, this investment will help us regenerate Middlesbrough and continue to grow our airport 💪"

[N707ZS]

GAs not in the club.

[Grumpy1]

As the freight hanger hasn't attracted any business yet perhaps it's a more suitable cargo shed

[Harold77]

New Hangars are in addition to Willis & Draken. So even more hangars to come.

[highwideandugly]

Where are the hangers…if not for the airport..who are the hangers for ? Are the airport subsidising Willis etc?

Doesn’t seem fair..£15 million could sort a few area problems out?

[SWBKCB]

The Mayor has confirmed on FB that Willis are funding their own hangars, and they are not for GA.

[highwideandugly]

So who are they for?

[Harold77]

You'll have to be patient. All will be revealed in time.

[onion]

I would suggest NCL is a much more sustainable business than MME overall though,..

Depends on the next pandemic! Also MME has a much more diverse mix.
Also as I ve pointed out before NCL has to refinance over the next 2 years.... at what price?
£240m negative balance sheet with an increase of £15m doesn't look good and when you consider they have debts of £400m and needing to refinance! I'd rather be a Teesside tax payer! How many North East taxpayer know they are subsidising NCL to such an amount?

[Jamesair1]

Probably not particularly interested as long they can fly to where they want to be from their local airport at a reasonable cost.

[GrahamK]

Depends on the next pandemic! Also MME has a much more diverse mix.
Also as I ve pointed out before NCL has to refinance over the next 2 years.... at what price?
£240m negative balance sheet with an increase of £15m doesn't look good and when you consider they have debts of £400m and needing to refinance! I'd rather be a Teesside tax payer! How many North East taxpayer know they are subsidising NCL to such an amount?

Going off topic but details of NCLs refinancingcan be found here. (https://www.newcastleairport.com/news-and-reporting/latest-news/newcastle-international-airport-refinances-bank-facilities/) Press release dated 1st December 2022.

[onion]

Going off topic but details of NCLs refinancingcan be found here. (https://www.newcastleairport.com/news-and-reporting/latest-news/newcastle-international-airport-refinances-bank-facilities/) Press release dated 1st December 2022.

That's not details! Where is the term, the interest rate, if its a repayment loan or as it was just the interest?
We'll just have to wait for the next accounts I suppose.

[SWBKCB]

You wouldn't expect that sort of detail in a press release, but I think the main point is that the deal has been done, not needs to be done.

Maybe leave Mr Parkin's legacy to the Newcastle thread, enough to discuss on here already!

I'd rather be a Teesside tax payer!

Given yesterday's announcement, I'm not surprised. Is there much council tax money going into MME?

[N707ZS]

Given yesterday's announcement, I'm not surprised. Is there much council tax money going into MME?
Don't think there is much council tax money for anything most roads in the area are only fit for a donkey!

[highwideandugly]

More Hangers or more pot holes…your choice😀

[Harold77]

It's not £15m for the airport, it is for two projects.
It is £7m for new hangar and facilities at the airport. £8m is for Gresham, Middlesbrough developments.

[highwideandugly]

Ok..£7 million for which hangers..Appreciate your in depth knowledge Harold!

[Harold77]

Like I said a few posts further up. Be patient and all will be revealed in time.

[N707ZS]

Must be due a mayor big white teeth photo. 1000s of new jobs....bla

[GrahamK]

New hangar for the Overlander blimp? Like the local mayor, full of hot air? :E

[s_insania]

Must be due a mayor big white teeth photo. 1000s of new jobs....bla

Are you a liebour supporter or do you just hate progression?

[s_insania]

Probably not particularly interested as long they can fly to where they want to be from their local airport at a reasonable cost.

Newcastle fanboy right here…
So taxpayers are not to care about Newcastle but we should be up in arms about Teesside with a 10 year plan to return to profit? At least make it make sense :ugh::ugh:

[N707ZS]

Are you a liebour supporter or do you just hate progression?
If you didn't realise other than Draken the rest is Blah.

[Grumpy1]

You make yourself look very childish referring to His Majesties opposition as Liebour.
You dont have to support any particular party to spot BS.

[Beafer]

Teesside published their accounts on the 14th Dec 2022, but I couldn't see a time frame when the mayor or his staff expect to be in profit instead of a ten million loss each year?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

How many friend of a friend companies are being paid by the money man out of the tax payers money? Anyone got a company name for the security firm and other people who are being paid thousands each year?

[onion]

Teesside published their accounts on the 14th Dec 2022, but I couldn't see a time frame when the mayor or his staff expect to be in profit instead of a ten million loss each year?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

How many friend of a friend companies are being paid by the money man out of the tax payers money? Anyone got a company name for the security firm and other people who are being paid thousands each year?

Beafer just so everyone understands, what is your problem with MME?

[Harold77]

Teesside published their accounts on the 14th Dec 2022, but I couldn't see a time frame when the mayor or his staff expect to be in profit instead of a ten million loss each year?

Think it is said 24-25 into profit. Original plan was year 7, but they are reckoning 2 years ahead of original plan.

The size of the loss this past couple of years has included investment spending, so have to take that into account when looking at the figures.

[highwideandugly]

24-25 into profit..not sure that will get met!…in fact I’m sure it won’t.

So what would be plan B ?

I’m sure I read in the accounts that £60 million is the outstanding Debt.Would that have to be paid off before a profit is announced?
Or is it yearly operating profit?

[onion]

24-25 into profit..not sure that will get met!…in fact I’m sure it won’t.

So what would be plan B ?

I’m sure I read in the accounts that £60 million is the outstanding Debt.Would that have to be paid off before a profit is announced?
Or is it yearly operating profit?

As far as I remember it was operating profit which would be used to repay the loans to the Tees Valley mayoral office.
The debt is mostly the loans, the figure to look at is the equity, the debt against the asset. At the last set of accounts it stood at -£10m (that figure at the time is a little high too as there is a provision for liability that may never materialise of £3m too) meaning that the debts are more than the assets, but this is an asset that is owned by that office so they have in a crude way only spent £10million on the place. As if it were to go under they would still own the asset. Or as was said it would be turned into housing/commerical development again owned by the Tees Valley Mayoral office.