Teesside-2

[SWBKCB]

Agree with that. They are even missing the new developing points.

Tell us more! :ok:

[Bill Darlington]

Nobody is being nasty, rude or deliberately disingenuous, if we go off course on the glide slope, it just gives us lively comments, we don't have to agree with one another, so bear with us.

[N707ZS]

Tell us more! :ok:
As seen on the Newcastle thread.
Possible imminent arrival of FedEx.

[Grumpy1]

The FedEx announcement was a anticipated before Christmas but didn't happen. Is this old news or is it back on?

[SWBKCB]

Back on - new building as well?

[highwideandugly]

Newcastle can’t compete with the massive sweeteners flying round Teesside airport at the moment methinks?

[P330]

Does anyone know what would the operation look like in terms of movements and aircraft types?

[SWBKCB]

Moving the NCL operation but with ATR's from the end of April is the rumour. So presumably MON-THUR to CDG

[tigertanaka]

Look out for Teesside standing in for New York International in an upcoming film on Amazon Prime. Good bit of fun PR for the airport but no doubt some on here will have a dig.

https://twitter.com/TeesAirport/status/1754838583444213880

[N707ZS]

Just spied this in the local rag. Wonder if the mayor was an extra.
Spider-Man and Riverdale stars film at Teesside Airport as terminal gets makeover for 'major Hollywood film' - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/spider-man-riverdale-stars-film-28578311)

[Flying Hi]

A nice piece of Teeside hyperbole - 'secret shooting'. The airport was open and fully operational.
​​​​​

[Beafer]

The new Lord didn't look very happy as Victoria pulled him up about a few things. The eyes got a bit twitchy!

Caught in the headlights!
https://www.reddit.com/r/tbrexitdaily/comments/1amioyu/lord_ben_houchen_faced_criticism_on_newsnight/

More to come out in the wash me thinks......

[N707ZS]

He doesn't look to well on that interview. We thought you had left with Peel Beafer.

[Bill Darlington]

The Mayor did not come over at all well and unable to accept the facts, his reputation has taken a serious knock, not helped by the statement that Teesside are to have SMRs , he made it sound that they were on order and deliverable soon, which is way off, so far only the technology is available, actual delivery is 15 years away if not more and only if massive finance is forthcoming,
His attitude will not help the airport grow

[Harold77]

He doesn't look to well on that interview.

Probably a lack of sleep with a new born baby delivered last week.

[Grumpy1]

Probably a lack of sleep with a new born baby delivered last week.
Ah, so not due to his guilty conscience then?
He has posted an edited version of the interview on his Facebook page that completely misrepresents the nature of the questioning, and completely removes the suggestions that he was telling lies so appears to be intended to mislead his supporters. Disapointing that he appears to have no shame and so the damage to our region and to our airport continues.
The FT and the Yorkshire Post have been strongly critical again this week and this is what potential investors see.

[tigertanaka]

Can we get back on topic. Of course there is a political element to the airport as the mayor got a mandate to buy it and it is ultimately controlled by the taxpayer but if you want to debate the Teessworks report, I am sure there are other better places to do that.

Any updates on:
Malaga (or other routes)
Fedex moving from NCL
Eastern wet leases running MME-AMS over the summer
Completion date for the new hanger and painting operation
Southside tenants
Loganair’s loss of interest and seemingly lack of commitment to the ABZ route

[SWBKCB]

Loganair's lack of interest? More like customers lack of interest. If there was money to be made, they'd be on it.

Maybe add Ryanair's engagement to the list - lack of expansion, are load factors a concern? Are they in 'contractural obligations' mode?

[Grumpy1]

Tigertanker asks a legitimate question but Mr Houchen is very much the face of our airport so when he is the subject of a highly critical report (to quote the Guardian) and guilty of lack of transparency etc etc it is relevant to the airport given that the same cronies were apparently given much of the south side in a similar manner, also in secret. Our face has been accused of lieing on national television and this week yet another major client for anounced as coming to the Teesworks stated that they were not, so it is legitimate to ask if this is the reason for Willis changing their mind, for the so far lack of growth from passenger and freight operators or for what appears to be the mothballing of the south side project.

[onion]

Loganair's lack of interest? More like customers lack of interest. If there was money to be made, they'd be on it.

Maybe add Ryanair's engagement to the list - lack of expansion, are load factors a concern? Are they in 'contractural obligations' mode?
I think the Aberdeen question has been proven many a time that if the service is there it has the potential to be a bigger route than it is.
The fact is loganair removed the based aircraft and that has meant only 1 rotation, which is easier to cancel at short notice because of crew location.
Before everyone jumps in and says it was because the numbers were down.... we don't know that and personally I believe it was for consolidation at NCL and they ve stayed on it to stop Eastern doing it multiple times a day, knowing that would have an impact on them shifting to a more NCL elcentric position.
By doing that they have shifted a number of passengers to NCL, possibly artificially inflating the NCL ABZ.

[pug]

I think the Aberdeen question has been proven many a time that if the service is there it has the potential to be a bigger route than it is.
The fact is loganair removed the based aircraft and that has meant only 1 rotation, which is easier to cancel at short notice because of crew location.
Before everyone jumps in and says it was because the numbers were down.... we don't know that and personally I believe it was for consolidation at NCL and they ve stayed on it to stop Eastern doing it multiple times a day, knowing that would have an impact on them shifting to a more NCL elcentric position.
By doing that they have shifted a number of passengers to NCL, possibly artificially inflating the NCL ABZ.

Demand for Aberdeen has declined across the board as there isn’t as much traffic generated by the oil and gas industry any more. Eastern only fly 1 x daily from Humberside now, down from I think 4 x daily in the past.

[Markushillman]

Demand for Aberdeen has declined across the board as there isn’t as much traffic generated by the oil and gas industry any more. Eastern only fly 1 x daily from Humberside now, down from I think 4 x daily in the past.

Very much so

NWI once apon a time, had Eastern 3x daily and BMI 2 x daily for many years. Post Covid it's now 2x daily with Loganair. Although there will of course be demand for a number of years to come it certainly isn't what it used to be for all these oil and gas flights, Teesside, Humber and Norwich just prove that

[SWBKCB]

If you look at Loganair, KLM and Ryanair at MME, it's clear that nobody is making a fortune. They are doing just enough to serve the limited demand and make a few quid.

[Markushillman]

If you look at Loganair, KLM and Ryanair at MME, it's clear that nobody is making a fortune. They are doing just enough to serve the limited demand and make a few quid.

I mean in regards to Ryanair its clear they have a strategy to effectively run a few Sun flights from some of the smaller UK airports, Teesside, Exeter, Cardiff, Norwich. (Of course for all these airports if Ryanair come a knocking you will no doubt offer them very favourable terms to operate.) Nothing more nothing less. So the expectation for Ryanair to do much more than they have now is unrealistic. I'm sure that they may add Malaga within a Year or so but that may well be it.

[Bill Darlington]

What's happening to the planned solar farm at the airport or is this delayed or postponed because of lack of progress on the South side business park

[highwideandugly]

Ben..mentioned taking on Fed Ex staff on Facebook..so that looks a goer….as I said earlier the sweeteners continue to appear, Newcastle can’t or won’t compete so … not sure what revenue will be created but the cargo figures will look good! 9000 jobs at Teesworks anyone 4 Private Nuclear Power Stations anyone!

There are so many announcements..it’s really hard to keep a count!

[Grumpy1]

"Ben..mentioned taking on Fed Ex staff on Facebook"
Did he actually say they were taking on new staff? He doesnt normally acknowledge the existence of FedEx as they were a Peel acquisition (as TNT). He also mentioned Serco who he wanted to evict of course. Curious that he no longer mentions the south side?

[mmeman]

If you look at Loganair, KLM and Ryanair at MME, it's clear that nobody is making a fortune. They are doing just enough to serve the limited demand and make a few quid.
could you let us know how you know this?

Looking at fares on flights this week - Aberdeen's cheapest fare one way is £208, Alicante's chepaest one way fare this week is £163.39, and KLM's cheapest is £165 one way next Saturday - not sure even this tells us much, but clearly not bargain basement fares neither.

[Harold77]

Any updates on:
Malaga (or other routes)

Could be due to delays to aircraft deliveries, as it is still causing timetable headaches not knowing exactly how many aircraft they will have delivered and commissioned in time for the summer season.


Eastern wet leases running MME-AMS over the summer

In January I done some calculations. Aircraft seat capacity for the Amsterdam route.
KLM operation 82,104
Eastern lease 130,400

2024 Total 212,504

This is based on E175 88 seats and E190 100 seats on KLM booking system, even though Eastern's have more than 100 seats. So this I think is highest ever capacity on the route.



Completion date for the new hangar and painting operation

Airbourne Colours say 1st September for opening.



15th February marks the 5th anniversary of the purchase of the airport from Peel. Sometimes anniversary dates in the business world usually heralds announcements of some kind to help boost celebrations.

[Cautious Optimist]

"Ben..mentioned taking on Fed Ex staff on Facebook"
Did he actually say they were taking on new staff? He doesnt normally acknowledge the existence of FedEx as they were a Peel acquisition (as TNT). He also mentioned Serco who he wanted to evict of course. Curious that he no longer mentions the south side?
TNT were here long before Peel

[Grumpy1]

TNT were here long before Peel
Yes, ofcourse. Thought that after I typed it. Ah, orange 146's

[SWBKCB]

could you let us know how you know this?

Looking at fares on flights this week - Aberdeen's cheapest fare one way is £208, Alicante's chepaest one way fare this week is £163.39, and KLM's cheapest is £165 one way next Saturday - not sure even this tells us much, but clearly not bargain basement fares neither.

Just look at the way the airlines are behaving, and you can see where Teesside sits in their pecking order - which is directly influenced by how much money they are making. For example:

Could be due to delays to aircraft deliveries, as it is still causing timetable headaches not knowing exactly how many aircraft they will have delivered and commissioned in time for the summer season.

Similar comments are made repeatedly on this (and similar) threads, but Ryanair's route planning and aircraft allocation hasn't come to a standstill because of delivery uncertainty - if they thought there was good money to be made they would find the aircraft. Ryanair are acting like they have a contract to provide a minimum of X number of flights, and are showing no signs of increasing that number which such suggests the existing flights aren't big earners.

Similarly, how often do you hear flight cancellations from KLM due to staff/aircraft shortages? To me the fact that they feel that they can hand over the whole operation to Eastern speaks volumes - I believe that KLM know they have a hard core of committed customers that they can rely on to keep the route viable, but don't see it as a growth opportunity.

[Markushillman]

Just look at the way the airlines are behaving, and you can see where Teesside sits in their pecking order - which is directly influenced by how much money they are making. For example:



Similar comments are made repeatedly on this (and similar) threads, but Ryanair's route planning and aircraft allocation hasn't come to a standstill because of delivery uncertainty - if they thought there was good money to be made they would find the aircraft. Ryanair are acting like they have a contract to provide a minimum of X number of flights, and are showing no signs of increasing that number which such suggests the existing flights aren't big earners.

Similarly, how often do you hear flight cancellations from KLM due to staff/aircraft shortages? To me the fact that they feel that they can hand over the whole operation to Eastern speaks volumes - I believe that KLM know they have a hard core of committed customers that they can rely on to keep the route viable, but don't see it as a growth opportunity.

Right I have to be careful what I say as I have a very good friend who works in scheduling at FR.

So I shall put it like this, as you clearly didn't read my post above. But perhaps Ryanair feel that the sun routes they have are what will work a Teesside, just because an airline doesnt add route after route, or base aircraft etc means they are dissatisfied with what they already have.

[SWBKCB]

I did read your post - I was commenting on the repeated statements that expansion is being stymied by lack of a/c etc. I didn't say they are dissatisfied but that MME isn't a priority. I still believe that if Ryanair were getting great returns at Teesside, there would be more flying.

[Markushillman]

I did read your post - I was commenting on the repeated statements that expansion is being stymied by lack of a/c etc. I didn't say they are dissatisfied but that MME isn't a priority. I still believe that if Ryanair were getting great returns at Teesside, there would be more flying.

Trust me Malaga has seen very little expansion for the upcoming summer season, as far as I'm aware there are 3 new routes with 2 of them operated by aircraft based not at Malaga, Malaga expected to recieve additional aircraft allocation for next year.

[SWBKCB]

Who mentioned Malaga? :rolleyes:

[Markushillman]

Who mentioned Malaga? :rolleyes:

Christ on a bike, you were making a point that Ryanair weren't adding x y routes, was using Malaga as an example of why Teesside hasn't yet seen that route. Anyway moving on :ugh:

[Beafer]

How much public money has the Mayor invested into the airport, and how much of it has gone to his favourite friends? Land or money, or both?

Does anyone know or is that another secret?

[onion]

How much public money has the Mayor invested into the airport, and how much of it has gone to his favourite friends? Land or money, or both?

Does anyone know or is that another secret?
Read the accounts it's all in there.

[Jamesair1]

This feels like GROUNDHOG DAY or even BACK TO THE FUTURE

[P330]

Yep, same old. Wake me up when the aviation discussions start.

[SKOJB]

A thread that talks so much about so little

[Markushillman]

A thread that talks so much about so little

:D:D:D 3 things are certain in life, death, taxes and the Teesside thread to always be on the first page of airline, airports and routes on pprune

[Cautious Optimist]

:D:D:D 3 things are certain in life, death, taxes and the Teesside thread to always be on the first page of airline, airports and routes on pprune
Which *should* be something to be proud of

[oldart]

It sounds like the needle has got stuck on this thread, so many people with a political agenda. You have made your point, let's move on and hope airports in general begin to thrive again.

[Asturias56]

:D:D:D 3 things are certain in life, death, taxes and the Teesside thread to always be on the first page of airline, airports and routes on pprune

actually that mega hub in Southampton normally comes top every day..................

as for" so many people with a political agenda. You have made your point, "

I don't think there's any other airport on the thread that is actually such a "political" football

[highwideandugly]

Charter to IOM just listed on the movements page..been a success apparently so another planned in a few months..Jetstream 41

As they say..”every little helps” !

[Jamesair1]

Thank you.......some real airport news.....at last

[Diff Tail Shim]

Charter to IOM just listed on the movements page..been a success apparently so another planned in a few months..Jetstream 41

As they say..”every little helps” !
"Vat iz 41?" Said by a Greek bloke on my Jetty course 9 years ago..

[SWBKCB]

Thank you.......some real airport news.....at last

So two Jetstream charters counts as "real airport news"? Doubt they'd raise an eyebrow on any of the other airport threads here. If that's the sort of news you are after, the "Teesside Movements" website really is an excellent resource.

Meanwhile, the airport being used as taxpayer funded vote-catcher for the third election in a row by a Mayor whose management approach fails to "meet standards expected when managing public funds" isn't a worthy subject for discussion? Funny old world.

Hey-ho!

[highwideandugly]

Quote from the well respected Carlisle press today !….
Teesside lost 2.2 million quid last year, to go with previous losses of up to 9 million per year. And it does have proper flights, just not very many. It's losing over 6,000 a day, every day. Four quid every minute of every day of the year. It's lost twenty quid while I've been typing this.

No idea where this came from..but interesting non the less!….Going to be an interesting few months pre elections!

[SWBKCB]

Quote from the well respected Carlisle press today !….
Teesside lost 2.2 million quid last year, to go with previous losses of up to 9 million per year. And it does have proper flights, just not very many. It's losing over 6,000 a day, every day. Four quid every minute of every day of the year. It's lost twenty quid while I've been typing this.

No idea where this came from..but interesting non the less!….Going to be an interesting few months pre elections!

It was in the comments from a user called algernon thrungecrumble ... :eek:

[mccdatabase]

Meanwhile, the airport being used as taxpayer funded vote-catcher for the third election in a row by a Mayor whose management approach fails to "meet standards expected when managing public funds" isn't a worthy subject for discussion? Funny old world.

At least he has worked to keep the airport open which is more than can be said for his political opponents

[highwideandugly]

Ah..old thrungecrumble..that well known aviation sage! Not sure where he dug those figures up from! Maybe 3/4 ports too many! (Not Freeport’s!)

[Harold77]

CAA December 2023.
Terminal Passengers 12,239
Aircraft Movements 936

2023 Year Totals
Terminal Passengers 226,326
Aircraft Movements 21,126
Cargo 61 Tonnes

[Flying Hi]

At least he has worked to keep the airport open which is more than can be said for his political opponents
Elections are funny things. Maybe the Huchen haters on here will get their wish and he'll be out - and MME will be too. Make a nice new urban village?

[SWBKCB]

Elections are funny things. Maybe the Huchen haters on here will get their wish and he'll be out - and MME will be too. Make a nice new urban village?

Why all the scare stories about housing? Lots of contaminated land and other impediments (go and look as to why it would have been so difficult to move the fire school).

[Flying Hi]

Why all the scare stories about housing? Lots of contaminated land and other impediments (go and look as to why it would have been so difficult to move the fire school).
If I were wanting MME to stay open I'd concentrate on the first part of my post. The second bit - a flippant throwaway. Sorry.
Begs the question though,- if Huchen out what happens to the airfield then.

[SWBKCB]

Remediating contaminated industrial land is quite a specialist job - anybody got mates who know anything about it?

[Grumpy1]

Houchen haters? Ah yes, people who expect honesty and transparency from our politicians.
Sadly, Lord H has turned himself into such a toxic character who is now constantly the subject of ridicule that we are probably at the stage where there is more chance of growth and the airport becoming viable with a new and more respected leader at the helm.
By the way, the close the airport and build houses on the runway was all made up. Dont fall for the BS.

[Harold77]

By the way, the close the airport and build houses on the runway was all made up. Dont fall for the BS.

Keep thinking that. It wasn't made up at all.

It was confirmed to me by a senior Council Director way back in 2013 of what the Labour Councils ultimate plans for the site were.

[Cautious Optimist]

Harold you either missed or need to re-read the PM I sent you some months ago

You need to provide better evidence than that

[Harold77]

What as if I'm going to go around recording every conversation I have with every person I talk to.

You tell me to provide evidence than that.

So where is Grump's evidence to say that it was all made up. He says I've fallen for Houchen's rubbish. When did Houchen come on scene oh yes 2016 for the 2017 election. How can I fall for something that pre dates the Houchen era.

[Cautious Optimist]

The point is, it's conjecture

[Grumpy1]

So when the Council's publicly agreed Peels ambitious development plan the Labour leader was at the same time giving contradictory secret briefings to Harold?

[highwideandugly]

Anyway..on to figures..what do the panel think?

My thoughts are a disappointing end to the year .

KLM the flagship having load factors of only 50%
Aberdeen. Even worse.
Movements..oh dear?

Am I missing something or has it all plateaued?

I’m sure the negativity regarding The mayor and others isn’t helping.
Coupled with the lack of any real options from the airport.

Question is where next?

[Beafer]

If the current mayor loses the next election, which many are predicting, will the next mayor bring in a forensic accountant to look into what the mayors friends received?

The same special friends are involved in the airport deals, so expect some fallout.

The interview by Victoria Derbyshire had the mayor looking very uncomfortable!

New press coverage.

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/houchen-tries-to-block-teesworks-evidence-to-mps/

Feb press.
https://northeastbylines.co.uk/the-north-easts-biggest-scandal-for-50-years/

[SWBKCB]

If the current mayor loses the next election, which many are predicting, will the next mayor bring in a forensic accountant to look into what the mayors friends received?

The same special friends are involved in the airport deals, so expect some fallout.

The interview by Victoria Derbyshire had the mayor looking very uncomfortable!

New press coverage.

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/houchen-tries-to-block-teesworks-evidence-to-mps/

Have you watched the full interview, or just the edited clips? And it's not a new article, almost a month old and before the report was issued.

My thoughts are a disappointing end to the year .

KLM the flagship having load factors of only 50%
Aberdeen. Even worse.
Movements..oh dear?


As I've mentioned before, movements are irrelevant - the majority will be Draken or GA training a/c who will I expect be on annual deals rather than paying per flight - and the weather for GA was awful in December.

And Alicante - worst monthly load factor since they restarted?

[P330]

I think a plateau is a reasonable conclusion on passenger numbers for a short while.

Disposable incomes, the cost of living, less business travel all combine with the lack of new routes to suggest, we’ll probably remain as we were for a bit. Tough macro times out there, but thankfully we’re not just about passenger operations and have other income to help.

[Grumpy1]

Plateau or even slight decline is certainly correct. Let's not forget that Borris's new Brexit Visa requirements with a fee, finger print checks and facial scans comes in soon so a reduction in European travel from all airports is anticipated but it will impact on the likes of MME more than some as we have a higher proportion of occasional travellers who wont bother anymore.

[Markushillman]

Have you watched the full interview, or just the edited clips? And it's not a new article, almost a month old and before the report was issued.



As I've mentioned before, movements are irrelevant - the majority will be Draken or GA training a/c who will I expect be on annual deals rather than paying per flight - and the weather for GA was awful in December.

And Alicante - worst monthly load factor since they restarted?

I think having Alicante 3x weekly in winter and then 2x daily in Summer is a bit odd, especially when demand is at its weakest

[P330]

Plateau or even slight decline is certainly correct. Let's not forget that Borris's new Brexit Visa requirements with a fee, finger print checks and facial scans comes in soon so a reduction in European travel from all airports is anticipated but it will impact on the likes of MME more than some as we have a higher proportion of occasional travellers who wont bother anymore.

Of course I don't know the answer to this and I'm just speculating, but I don't think the visa rule will have any impact. Getting a visa will be a short on-line process that costs coppers and will be resolved in minutes. Certainly if you plan to travel, I cannot imagine the visa scheme will be anything other than an inconvenience. It won't make people think "I was going to travel, but because of this I won't". If I'm wrong, I suspect any effect will be immaterial.

[Grumpy1]

Travel agents expecting resistance from some, especialy those who are resentful of the new restrictions and have been used to simple transit through borders, (or have debts or historic convictions and cant obtain permission to travel!) Was similar when the US introduced ESTA's. Will be easier to go to none European countries but you cant do that from MME. Our flights are marginal so just a slight drop in numbers may have an impact.
Now lost count of how many times the introduction of Visa's has been postponed but it now sounds they will be introduced soon.

[N707ZS]

If the current mayor loses the next election, which many are predicting, will the next mayor bring in a forensic accountant to look into what the mayors friends received?

The same special friends are involved in the airport deals, so expect some fallout.

The interview by Victoria Derbyshire had the mayor looking very uncomfortable!

New press coverage.

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/houchen-tries-to-block-teesworks-evidence-to-mps/

Feb press.
https://northeastbylines.co.uk/the-north-easts-biggest-scandal-for-50-years/

He will probably win as only his current supports like Harold can be bothered to go and vote. Take a look at his previous victories and how many did turn out.

[highwideandugly]

Don’t know if any guys on here follow Facebook and the airport thread ? Some very interesting news and questions on the Charitable foundation set up by the mayor …going to get interesting!

At the end of the day I think most just really want honesty and transparency ?
How this affects the airport ..time will tell…

[N707ZS]

Come on then highwide, spill the beans.

[David Thompson]

Come on then highwide, spill the beans.

https://www.teesvalleymonitor.com/teesside-airport-foundation-houchens-bogus-charity?fbclid=IwAR0UtkEXNbLuET9aFtpuAsEpeSDag7kIXG1w5wRSACr 7tS3o6misNKziY3k

[P330]

The TUI and Ryanair tie up news is really quite interesting with lots of questions still to answer.

How would this affect the smaller airports like MME? Presumably, this means TUI can send people this summer to Corfu, Alicante and Faro boosting NE holiday options and increasing the loads. But does it mean the days of expensive ‘W’ rotations to smaller airports come to an end over time?

[Grumpy1]

I recall that when Stobart/Eskin ran away and the charity was set up it was said at the time that this was a device to avoid scrutiny. That fact that the airport is not completely owned by bodies that are subject to the freedom of information act enquires has be quoted by journalists as the reason why their enquiries have been resisted.
I have never understood the need or the advantage to hide from scrutiny.

[Harold77]

The TUI and Ryanair tie up news is really quite interesting with lots of questions still to answer.

How would this affect the smaller airports like MME? Presumably, this means TUI can send people this summer to Corfu, Alicante and Faro boosting NE holiday options and increasing the loads. But does it mean the days of expensive ‘W’ rotations to smaller airports come to an end over time?

It is a win win situation all round.

There are a lot of people who just like package holiday deals.

Ryanair gain more passengers and TUI sell more accommodation and tour packages. So anywhere TUI has accommodation and tour deals and Ryanair flies there then it is huge wins for each company. Not just for the summer season, but all year round. It is as simple as that.

Every airport that is served by Ryanair will see a boost as more passengers travel with Ryanair.

Also it gives more travel options especially with length of stays with more flights being available especially when both are operating from same airport.

So for the likes of Teesside it can help boost numbers on Ryanair flights and for likes of Palma then the length of stay combinations become much more numerous, so is likely to boost across both operators.

It certainly is going to be interesting how this deal pans out. But both companies are certainly going to be increasing their business substantially.

[Bill Darlington]

There's another Houchen inspired charity, it's called
Teesworks Benevolent Foundation
It was incorporated a few weeks ago. !?
And Houchen said that Airborne Colours are being a new tenant for the new hangar, that would indicate that Airborne have not paid for the hangar, guess who has.?

[tigertanaka]

There's another Houchen inspired charity, it's called
Teesworks Benevolent Foundation
It was incorporated a few weeks ago. !?
And Houchen said that Airborne Colours are being a new tenant for the new hangar, that would indicate that Airborne have not paid for the hangar, guess who has.?
Why do we keep getting these sort of cryptic questions on here? If you know who has paid for a new hanger, just say so and help us all out.

In my limited experience of commercial property, it would be more of a shock if a tenant had actually paid for the construction of the property they were moving in to.

[Harold77]

And Houchen said that Airborne Colours are being a new tenant for the new hangar, that would indicate that Airborne have not paid for the hangar, guess who has.?

It's no secret that the airport is paying for the hangars to be built so they can be rented out. Been in public domain for a good while now.

[SWBKCB]

It's no secret that the airport is paying for the hangars to be built so they can be rented out. Been in public domain for a good while now.

Funded by central goverment grants for the two hangars

New hangar space at Teesside Airport is critical to landing new investment that’ll bring our airport back to profit and create good-quality jobs for local people. We’ve got the cash from Government to get this done and are now delivering new opportunities for our great businesses.”

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/work-to-start-on-airport-hangar-as-construction-contract-awarded/

[Bill Darlington]

Houchen stated on the 12th January, the following

Airbourne Colours is Europe’s only privately-owned aircraft painting company, with only one other competitor in the UK and is investing £6.5million in the establishment of a base on Teesside.
Which incorrectly suggests that Airborne are the investor, clearly not the £6.5 m would be the correct sort of cost of both hangers, he is very good at issuing misleading info, if you read this as a normal member of the public what would you think ?

[SWBKCB]

That quote is from a Teesside Airport press release, which isn't quite the same as Houchen saying it...

[SWBKCB]

Can we get back on topic. Of course there is a political element to the airport as the mayor got a mandate to buy it and it is ultimately controlled by the taxpayer



Whether we like it or not, the airport is a political footballEarlier in the day, Lord Houchen had accused his Labour rival of having supported previous plans to build housing on the Teesside Airport site and later the closure of the airport. Outside the football stadium, a group of protesters displayed a banner reading ‘Stop Peel’s Candidate’ – in reference to former airport owners Peel.

The mayor claimed that Mr McEwan was “responsible for supporting Peel and proposing to build 350 houses on the airport”, which he called “an act of vandalism that would have meant the end of Teesside Airport all together”. However, the Labour candidate reiterated his backing for the airport on Friday.

He said: “My position, which I have had for about four years, is that everybody wants an airport, we have a 10-year plan, I back that plan. We are five years in and I would like to know where we are with that plan, both as a mayoral candidate and a deputy leader of a council.”

He added: “How can I help an organisation if they are not open and transparent? I want to do what I can to help the airport. Any rhetoric or language around my views on the airport... it needs to be what is coming out of my mouth - which is that I want to, I will support the airport.”

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/labour-tees-valley-mayoral-candidate-28650313

[Grumpy1]

Lord H has attempted to criticise Labour candidate for previously supporting the Peel airport development plan that including the building of 350 houses to provide funding for the development of the airport as an airport. He completely missed the point that the plan was to fund the development of the airport, not close it, thus reafirming that his (and others) claim that the airport would close and become a housing estate are not true, although he has also accepted that in discussions.
Having not made reference to the Willis village for months he has introduced this development again. Not clear if this is just electioneering or have Willis changed their mind again and decided to go ahead afterall?
Interesting that comments highlighting his error appear to have been removed so are we back to the days when critics get blocked I wonder?

[highwideandugly]

TUI/Ryanair ‘merger’….

My way of thinking is..it shares the risk factor at marginal airports?
Therefore unlikely..for instance that TUI would put a dedicated flight on to a Ryanair destination..and conversely of course.
So I would guess for airports like Teesside that will mean no new flights or destinations for the foreseeable future unless Ben comes up with even more massive subsidies?

[SWBKCB]

TUI/Ryanair ‘merger’….

My way of thinking is..it shares the risk factor at marginal airports?
Therefore unlikely..for instance that TUI would put a dedicated flight on to a Ryanair destination..and conversely of course.
So I would guess for airports like Teesside that will mean no new flights or destinations for the foreseeable future unless Ben comes up with even more massive subsidies?

Merger? This is all getting overblown. TUI have done the same on EZY and others for years.

[highwideandugly]

Should have put a 😀 after merger! ..sorry SWBKCB !
Must do better🤔

[N707ZS]

Houchen stated on the 12th January, the following

Airbourne Colours is Europe’s only privately-owned aircraft painting company, with only one other competitor in the UK and is investing £6.5million in the establishment of a base on Teesside.
Which incorrectly suggests that Airborne are the investor, clearly not the £6.5 m would be the correct sort of cost of both hangers, he is very good at issuing misleading info, if you read this as a normal member of the public what would you think ?
There is only one small hangar.

[SWBKCB]

There is only one small hangar.

There is planning permission for two "narrowbody" hangars - 737/321 size

[tigertanaka]

Houchen stated on the 12th January, the following

Airbourne Colours is Europe’s only privately-owned aircraft painting company, with only one other competitor in the UK and is investing £6.5million in the establishment of a base on Teesside.
Which incorrectly suggests that Airborne are the investor, clearly not the £6.5 m would be the correct sort of cost of both hangers, he is very good at issuing misleading info, if you read this as a normal member of the public what would you think ?

Has anyone ever said that £6.5m was the cost of the hangers?

I think a normal person would assume that if a company like this was moving into a leased building, their publicised investment would be for the machinery, IT, office fit out, signage and other things to set up a functional painting operation. Of course the £6.5m could be stretched to include the rent and rates paid over the lease period (as that is a commitment from the tenant) but that would be a bit cheeky (although probably justifiable for a politician).

[highwideandugly]

I’m sure Ben somewhere down the line said he’d been awarded £17 million for 2 new hangers a few months ago… by Rishi,Gove etc….

[N707ZS]

There is planning permission for two "narrowbody" hangars - 737/321 size
Yes but they are only building one which looks nothing like the plans.

[Harold77]

Yes but they are only building one which looks nothing like the plans.

In what way does it look nothing like the plans.

They are only building the one hangar at moment, but can build the second one whenever they require it to be built.

[SWBKCB]

I thought they'd got government funding for two hangars, but this article (and others) only mentions one:A further £7m will be spent on a new hangar and infrastructure at Teesside Airport. Mr Houchen continued: “An extra £7million for a hangar at Teesside Airport is another big win which will allow the airport to bring in new investment and supercharge our Freeport vision.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23249496.15m-levelling-grant-revitalise-gresham-middlesbrough/

[Cautious Optimist]

The funding was always for one hangar. The architect drawings showed one hangar with two bays, yet the frame that's gone up is one hangar one bay

[SWBKCB]

The planning application is for two hangars


23/00694/FUL - Erection of 2 no. narrowbody aircraft hangars for maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) use, supporting airfield apron and aircraft manoeuvring areas, repositioning of the airside fence, carparking, associated infrastructure including new access road to the airport train station, and landscaping works

[N707ZS]

Get your hangar drawings and compare to this fresh picture.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/hangar_190224_50bd5e67a68a36d7ec14772248818f11fe7836cf.jpg
Taken 19-02-24

[SWBKCB]

Assuming that's the rear of the hangar to the right of the photo, that looks like what's in the plans to me. It's difficult to assess scale (it looks too small for a 737/320), but the general layout is the same, as is the number of steel pillars, steel work at the rear.

[N707ZS]

The crane is at the front end. The door tracks are one view.

[Harold77]

Obviously the skeletal frame will make it look different without the cladding on. What is different to that is on the artist impressions on planning application?

[oldart]

Surely it would be a waste of time for a paint shop not being able to take a B 737 or A 320. Unfortunately the crane is in the way where the aircraft tail might go.

[N707ZS]

Oldart wins the cocoanut. On closer inspection there is a tail door in the centre, behind the crane. Not the original plan full 727 tail height hangar.

[SWBKCB]

Oldart wins the cocoanut. On closer inspection there is a tail door in the centre, behind the crane. Not the original plan full 727 tail height hangar.

What is shown in the planning permission is for a 737/320 tail slot - the pictures with the 727 in the hangar were artist impressions. Why would anybody build a hangar for T-tails nowadays?

[SWBKCB]

The newly built mile-long road to Business Park South from the A67 will be known as Mynarski Way, after Canadian air gunner Andrew Mynarski who flew from Teesside Airport during its time as a military base in the Second World War.

Pilot Officer Mynarski was the only Canadian air gunner to receive a Victoria Cross, which was awarded for his bravery in trying to rescue his trapped Lancaster bomber crewmate as their plane went down over France in 1944.

Good news, I think we can all agree.:ok:

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/lasting-tribute-paid-to-war-hero-as-new-airport-business-park-road-named/

[N707ZS]

Is it finished?

[Beafer]

Looks like he doesn't want to face the music.
A few public comments on the news piece. Elections in May.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/disbelief-tvca-cancels-first-cabinet-28664181

[Bill Darlington]

Looks like he doesn't want to face the music.
A few public comments on the news piece. Elections in May.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/disbelief-tvca-cancels-first-cabinet-28664181
I just a look at the article, staggering, It seams Houchen will not be told.
He is more interested in posting on Facebook prior to the election, his only reference to the airport was to dig up what he called a "Bombshell Article" from 2015 stating labour wanted to close airport......... despite all his arrogance he still has a lot of followers, although there are less comments regarding extra flights.......fed up asking ?

[FlyMME]

According to the excellent SPD Travels on Twitter, Fedex starting service MAN-CDG using ATR in April - rules Teesside out?

https://x.com/SPD_travels/status/1760329487126860020?s=20

[SWBKCB]

Original rumour for this summer was NCL-MAN-CDG-MAN-NCL with a 737, so maybe they've only got half the story and the Atr continues on to day stop at MME?

[highwideandugly]

Latest from benji..Airborne Colours new HQ (hangar) at the airport is well underway.

I didn’t release the airport was to be the new HQ for the company?

£6.5 million investment by them(all ready mentioned)..so this isn’t part of the government hand out for hangars?

[jmdavies86]

Looks like he doesn't want to face the music.
A few public comments on the news piece. Elections in May.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/disbelief-tvca-cancels-first-cabinet-28664181

The report has cleared him of any wrongdoing (didn't it?!), so what 'music' are you suggesting that he faces...?!

By all accounts, the recommendations for improvements that need/should be made are being implemented (aren't they?!), and if there are/were no decisions to be made, then why have a meeting...?!

[SWBKCB]

Without wanting to drag the thread even further off track, but many of the 28 recommendations were around the approach to consultation and the lack of process and controls.

So cancelling your first significant governanance event tells you that maybe the lesson hasn't been learnt.

[Beafer]

Without wanting to drag the thread even further off track, but many of the 28 recommendations were around the approach to consultation and the lack of process and controls.

So cancelling your first significant governanance event tells you that maybe the lesson hasn't been learnt.

Well said. The inquiry was held by Gove, who is just another mate of the mayors. When the next mayor is elected (and it wont be Ben), thats when somebody will start to find out what has really gone on with the public money and the friends.

[Flying Hi]

Well said. The inquiry was held by Gove, who is just another mate of the mayors. When the next mayor is elected (and it wont be Ben), thats when somebody will start to find out what has really gone on with the public money and the friends.
you reckon??

[Jamesair1]

You might, of course, elect an airport hating new Mayor....maybe that is what you want?

[Flying Hi]

You might, of course, elect an airport hating new Mayor....maybe that is what you want?
Thats my feeling too - MME gets the kiss of desth from a new Mayor then they will really have something juicy to whinge and whine over. Maybe that's what they want.

[Cautious Optimist]

I personally think he'll walk it. But unless an airport-hating Mayor only fancies a single term we're safe

[Grumpy1]

"The report has cleared him of any wrongdoing (didn't it?!)"

Sadly the report did not clear him as you suggest even after several rewrites were "negotiated" If you read his Facebook page, however, you may be forgiven for thinking that. The grown-ups who may be potential investors take the facts from the broad sheets who remain very critical of his conduct as outlined in the report.
I cant imagine voting for the labour bloke but is he really anti-airport as suggested or is this just another of Lord H's mischievous inventions? Thought he had agreed with Peel's plan to invest in and develop the airport which suggests that he may not be anti, but we may never know.
Problem is that the current Mayor is damaged goods so is clearly now an impediment to the growth of the airport but no idea what we will get with the labour lot so dont know who to vote for.

[highwideandugly]

Benji..will walk it…agreed..but going to be a very bumpy path after the election!

[SWBKCB]

I personally think he'll walk it. But unless an airport-hating Mayor only fancies a single term we're safe

The airport will be safe when it makes money and stops being a political toy.

[N707ZS]

Turnout is so poor only his supporters vote. Its amazing how many people have given up with what we call democracy.

[Grumpy1]

"The airport will be safe when it makes money and stops being a political toy."

But with passengers numbers being so far short of expectations, freight being pretty much none existent (so far?) and the south side not generating any income and unlikely to do so any time soon will the airport be making a profit before its performance is reviewed by what we are told will be the next Labour government?

[SWBKCB]

And Ben has said he will close it if his plan doesn't return it to profit.

[SWBKCB]

I cant imagine voting for the labour bloke but is he really anti-airport as suggested or is this just another of Lord H's mischievous inventions? Thought he had agreed with Peel's plan to invest in and develop the airport which suggests that he may not be anti, but we may never know.

You might, of course, elect an airport hating new Mayor....maybe that is what you want?

See the quotes at post #3087

[Bill Darlington]

I would imagine that there really are not many people interested in voting for a mayor, the only people that will vote will be the lovers and the haters, even if he gets voted in he'll be facing a labour government, he'll find that very awkward.
I asked Houchen to clarify the £6.5 million investment, needless to say I received no response , and his refusal to have a meeting is astonishing, I guess he's confident to get re-elected.

[Harold77]

Four Parties have their names down for the Tees Mayoral election. This election it will be first past the post result, so whoever gets most votes wins. It doesn't go on second preference like previously.

Conservatives - Ben Houchen
Green Party - Sally Bunce
Labour - Chris McEwan
Lib Dems - Simon Thorley

[Bill Darlington]

So, a new hangar is built without funding from TIA, and then TIA rent it out at say ,£30k a year, is that£30k profit for nothing .? ,

[SWBKCB]

So, a new hangar is built without funding from TIA, and then TIA rent it out at say ,£30k a year, is that£30k profit for nothing .? ,

Do we know anything definite about the funding for the hangar?

[Grumpy1]

"Do we know anything definite about the funding for the hangar?"
The airport is owned by and funded by the taxpayer so us taxpayers know everything about the financial arrangements........ oh, just a minute!

[Flying Hi]

30k a YEAR?? Bargain!!! We're moving!! Down here in the Worst Midlands you can't even rent a reasonable modern small business premises for 30k a MONTH.

[highwideandugly]

Draken International in liquidation according to Facebook release..will this have an impact?

[Flying Hi]

Draken International in liquidation according to Facebook release..will this have an impact?
Don't do Farcebook. Can you do us a copy and paste. Almost unbelievable.
Nothing on Draken EUROPE page.

[highwideandugly]

Tried to find it again..disappeared?? me thinks dodgy link?

Sorry!

[Flying Hi]

Tried to find it again..disappeared?? me thinks dodgy link?

Sorry!
No worries. Some mischief afoot perhaps.
Me? I'm too busy trying to rent a factory for 30k a year to worry. Lol.

[Bill Darlington]

No worries. Some mischief afoot perhaps.
Me? I'm too busy trying to rent a factory for 30k a year to worry. Lol.
It was just a " for instance" I have no idea of TIA rentals, yes knowing Houchen it's probably a whole lot more, not that we'll ever know !???

[Flying Hi]

It was just a " for instance" I have no idea of TIA rentals, yes knowing Houchen it's probably a whole lot more, not that we'll ever know !???
No worries, Bill. I assumed it was an assumption. Just made me smile on a crap day.

[Bill Darlington]

No worries, Bill. I assumed it was an assumption. Just made me smile on a crap day.
Okey dokey, good to smile 😊

[onion]

Draken International in liquidation according to Facebook release..will this have an impact?
Yep they are in voluntary liquidation, looks like they are consolidating the amount of compaies registered in the UK.
It appears that there is no impact on the Draken operations as the parent companies will by the looks of it be just absorbing the assets.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01853419

[Markushillman]

https://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/24139946.ryanair-warns-flight-tax-damage-norwich-airport/

Perhaps of interest in Ryanair and its views on the UK market, despite Norwich in the title it focuses on Exeter, Teesside and Norwich in the article.

Ryanair doing its usual is what I take from the article.

[highwideandugly]

Benjis latest Facebook promise..if re elected he will promise to bring back flights to Malaga and Tenerife !

More subsidies or are the airlines ready to follow his lead and toe his line ?

[FlyMME]

It must be that these flights have already been agreed to start at some point in the future - if he wins, he can claim it was down to him.

[Harold77]

Kind of ties in with the late deliveries of new aircraft from Boeing for Ryanair's fleet expansion.

[SWBKCB]

Kind of ties in with the late deliveries of new aircraft from Boeing for Ryanair's fleet expansion.

Which doesn't seem to have impacted the new Ryanair routes announced at Pescara, Malta (including Belfast and Norwich), Cagliari, Trieste, Tirana, Madrid, Rome, Charleroi so far this year.

[Bill Darlington]

He states if he wins he will bring in Málaga and Tenerife, so it entirely rests on whether he gets re-elected, begs the question why has he not done it so far.
WOuld Tenerife flights require food / a meal provided, Teesside have no such facilities??????
Or are these just election promises, similar to that of the £200 million industrial park, and what's happening to the proposed solar farm, Houchen said that SSE were opening a new office hub at the airport ??

[P330]

I think on the routes promise, it has to be something already agreed. Which should mean it’s coming whoever gets in - more of a case of the mayor claiming credit.

If I’m wrong, then it’s a risky promise as the airlines won’t do what doesn’t make sense for them. Or subsidies are involved.

My inclination is it’s the first point - already in the bag.

[Markushillman]

Benjis latest Facebook promise..if re elected he will promise to bring back flights to Malaga and Tenerife !

More subsidies or are the airlines ready to follow his lead and toe his line ?

Subsidies that is clear.

[globetrotter79]

Subsidies that is clear.

I bet ryanair will be rubbing their hands together with glee on hearing this. Effectively the Mayor has made clear he wants to secure these routes come what may (in other words at any cost). Therefore, knowing there's pretty much no other show in town, he has pretty much handed ryan a signed blank cheque to name their figure!!!

[Flying Hi]

Would that be no landing and/or handling fees or would MME actually PAY Ryanair to use MME?

[FlyMME]

I bet ryanair will be rubbing their hands together with glee on hearing this. Effectively the Mayor has made clear he wants to secure these routes come what may (in other words at any cost). Therefore, knowing there's pretty much no other show in town, he has pretty much handed ryan a signed blank cheque to name their figure!!!

I'd be stunned if had not already been agreed and signed - for exactly this reason.

[Grumpy1]

It was never made public what deal was done with Ryanair to get them in before the previous mayoral election so anything is possible. Let's not forget, however, that he has made similar promises before that have come to nothing but he never explains himself.

As for Harold's much repeated backlog at Beoing excuse, we understand why he has made this up, but it is undermined when Ryanair expand at other airports but not MME.

[Markushillman]

I bet ryanair will be rubbing their hands together with glee on hearing this. Effectively the Mayor has made clear he wants to secure these routes come what may (in other words at any cost). Therefore, knowing there's pretty much no other show in town, he has pretty much handed ryan a signed blank cheque to name their figure!!!

Oh absolutely, EXT, NWI and of course MME for these small airports FR come knocking saying we will fly from here but...... or in Ryanair's famous words, "we have worked closely with our partners at ...... to bring agreeable terms" or in other words, the airports opened its bank safe and Ryanair have helped itself to all the gold. Ryanair won't be losing money on any of the routes even if the yields arent what they want, they aren't stupid, they wouldn't be what they are now if they were. Of course in MME they will be seeing those big bills in their eyes as the Major let's them raid again to bring in the Malaga and Tenerife Routes.

[Harold77]

As for Harold's much repeated backlog at Beoing excuse, we understand why he has made this up, but it is undermined when Ryanair expand at other airports but not MME.

How can it be made up when Ryanair and Boeing have publicly stated that there are backlogs in deliveries. SO THAT IS NOT MADE UP!!!!!!!!!

You do understand that each new route is dependant on aircraft being delivered.

For instance Norwich routes could be because aircraft 33, 36, 37, 40 have been delivered. Teesside routes may be at aircraft delivery number 49 and 53.

Couldn't be more simpler than that.

But I forget that it goes against your negative views.

[Grumpy1]

Ryanair have explained several times, including today, that the Boeing backlog may result in fare increases in the summer but trying to use that as the excuse for the mayor not delivering on his promises when other airports anounce additional routes is just daft.
You can be confident that if the lack of replacement FR aircraft was the reason for no expansion at MME then this would have been explained by his Lordship. You apear to be the only person coming up with this theory.

[SWBKCB]

How can it be made up when Ryanair and Boeing have publicly stated that there are backlogs in deliveries. SO THAT IS NOT MADE UP!!!!!!!!!

You do understand that each new route is dependant on aircraft being delivered.

For instance Norwich routes could be because aircraft 33, 36, 37, 40 have been delivered. Teesside routes may be at aircraft delivery number 49 and 53.

Couldn't be more simpler than that.

But I forget that it goes against your negative views.

Ryanair will be moving aircraft around to to maximise the return on their investment - the fact that they are expanding at other places and not at MME would indicate how they view what they think they will make on routes from Teesside.

[Harold77]

I'm not the only one. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.
You do realise how companies operate and how they plan expansion or contraction.
Each operation is given a number in line on the expansion plan.

[pug]

I'm not the only one. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.
You do realise how companies operate and how they plan expansion or contraction.
Each operation is given a number in line on the expansion plan.

So what you’re basically saying is the MME is bottom of the pile in the Ryanair planning department. Or put another way, it’s not a priority to them.

Sounds like a long term sustainable growth plan for the mayor of Toytown (sarcasm).

[highwideandugly]

Not sure how this fits into ‘World wide connectivity “ that Benji promised….methinks definitely a bit of electioneering going on!

But it keeps the airport going..all being at tax payers expense while the credit remains with him alone?

[Grumpy1]

"I'm not the only one. It doesn't take a genius to work it out".
So can you point us to another beleivable and authoritative source that has explained that MME cannot have the promissed additional routes and flights because of the issues at Boeing please?

[Harold77]

Err, Ryanair last year said that expansion plans were being hampered by delays in new aircraft deliveries from Boeing.

Can't get a much better source than from the airline itself.


134 posts from you on this forum and only this thread, never have you once showed any positivity.

[P330]

As ever folks, there are likely two truths!

Harold is 100% right about delayed aircraft. That very well could be the reason. It could also be extremely likely that MME are bottom of the pile meaning what scarce resources there are will be sent elsewhere. I would certainly assume MME is not one of the top performing routes (assume).

[NorthSouth]

Can't get a much better source than from the airline itself.Really? M O'L is the most reliable source of what is happening at Ryanair? Suspect the history might suggest otherwise...

[Grumpy1]

Ryanair have anounced several dozen new routes this Winter including 12 flights per week from Norwich, despite the Beoing issues. Kind of undermines the excuse that Harold has constructed but guess that's fine if he thinks that is being positive and somehow helps the airport.

[N707ZS]

Does anyone know when we will be able to use the Sky bar and wander onto the outdoor viewing terrace.

[P330]

Ryanair have anounced several dozen new routes this Winter including 12 flights per week from Norwich, despite the Beoing issues. Kind of undermines the excuse that Harold has constructed but guess that's fine if he thinks that is being positive and somehow helps the airport.

Come on; we’re adults aren’t we? Harold is not making it up. Read my reply. You also could be right, but that doesn’t mean Harold is wrong.

[Harold77]

Does anyone know when we will be able to use the Sky bar and wander onto the outdoor viewing terrace.

You can buy stuff from downstairs cafe and take it upstairs to Skybar. The outdoor section isn't available yet.

[pug]

Come on; we’re adults aren’t we? Harold is not making it up. Read my reply. You also could be right, but that doesn’t mean Harold is wrong.

Harold is correct, Ryanair are reeling from delivery delays. However, that’s not really relevant here as is evidenced by continued growth in the network including the starting of services from new airports. Are we do assume for instance that Ryanair intend to base more of these new aircraft at TFS and AGP to free up enough space in the schedules to serve MME when they already have a base at LBA and NCL?

Lots more aircraft might mean MME gets a couple more routes, it also might not. But given that they are expanding elsewhere, clearly MME is not a priority and therefore doesn’t bode so well for their longevity at MME, particularly if Houchen does get the boot next time and/or Labour win the next GE and start asking more questions…

[P330]

I’ll get my coat after this because it’s likely irrelevant, but who is to say AGP and TFS will be on Ryanair?

TUI?
Spanish Operator?
Wizz?
Easyjet?

All unlikely…..but….

[N707ZS]

You can buy stuff from downstairs cafe and take it upstairs to Skybar. The outdoor section isn't available yet.
But when is yet.

[Markushillman]

From the article the other day from one of the bosses at Ryanair on its allocation.

Mr McGuinness said: “We’re working closely with some of these small regional UK airports, the likes of Norwich, Exeter, Teesside.

“But to be honest, they’re at an enormous disadvantage now versus their European competitors.

“We allocate capacity based on one metric only – that’s cost.

“We’ve done long-term deals with the likes of Dubrovnik and Tangier, our two new bases."

Mr McGuiness added: “Do we put capacity into those bases or do we put capacity into somewhere like Exeter or Teesside where we have the £13 departure penalty on those passengers?

“The answer is clear, we’re not going to do that because we are quite sensible in the way we allocate capacity.

“London will be always fine, but where UK APD is doing untold damage is to the regional UK airports.
“I think that’s going to get worse over the next number of years, predominantly because European airports are becoming significantly more competitive.”

So with them sort of views from Ryanair although I'm sure it's politically aimed, the likes of Teesside are having to do very lucrative deals for Ryanair. And I'm sure it will be the same if Mr Major wants Malaga and TFS.

[N707ZS]

The comment on the Eastern thread suggests Teesside won't be seeing KLM aircraft anymore once Eastern starts this summer.

[SWBKCB]

Tees Valley Mayor, Ben Houchen, said, “Teesside Airport today is unrecognisable from the airport we saved from Peel’s destruction back in 2019. We have worked tirelessly to turn things around and in a short space of time we have seen massive progress. We have seen holiday flights to Spain, Greece, Portugal, and Turkey return, alongside the complete transformation of the terminal. Our plan is ahead of schedule, we are seeing record passenger numbers, and now is the time to increase our offer to local people further. That is why, if re-elected, I will bring flights to Malaga and Tenerife to our airport. Whilst my Labour opposition wanted to close the airport and sell it off for housing, I want to make sure more people can visit more Poolside destinations from Teesside. That’s my promise, and that’s what I will deliver, just as I delivered on my pledge to save the airport.”

https://planetradio.co.uk/tfm/local/news/new-holiday-routes-from-teesside-promised-as-part-of-re-election-campaign/

[Grumpy1]

So is the mayor saying that Ryanair's business model is that that they will only introduce new routes at MME if he is reelected? Alternatively, has he done another deal with Ryanair that involves a taxpayer subsidy and perhaps an extension of the no completion arrangement? Seems very odd.

[pug]

The comment on the Eastern thread suggests Teesside won't be seeing KLM aircraft anymore once Eastern starts this summer.

Does it? The last post on there would merely suggest Eastern are just going through the regulatory hoops.

[Markushillman]

nitial codeshare routes to be operated by Eastern on which the DL* code will be marketed include AMS-Teeside/Newcastle/Southampton/Norwich/Cardiff/Humberside/Glasgow/Manchester/Bristol.

Think the more alarming is the amount of airports not just MME that will get to experience Eastern and its industry leading on time performance and reliability whilst operating flights that are very time sensitive for onward connections on KL network :E

[SWBKCB]

Kind of ties in with the late deliveries of new aircraft from Boeing for Ryanair's fleet expansion.RYANAIR ANNOUNCES ITS SUMMER 2024 SCHEDULE IN TENERIFE8 NEW ROUTES AND 2 NEW AIRCRAFT BASED

Ryanair, Spain's No. 1 airline, today (20 February) announced its summer 2024 schedule for Tenerife with a total of 53 routes, including 8 new routes from Tenerife South Airport. With this record schedule, Ryanair will have two new aircraft based in Tenerife South (4 in total) by summer 2024 (additional $200 million investment), creating 60 new well-paid jobs for pilots and cabin crew.
https://corporate.ryanair.com/spanish/ryanair-anuncia-su-calendario-del-verano-2024-en-tenerife/?market=esRYANAIR ANNOUNCES RECORD SCHEDULE FOR SUMMER 2024 IN MALAGA5 NEW ROUTES AND 3 NEW AIRCRAFT BASED

Ryanair, Spain's No. 1 airline, today (15 February) announced its biggest summer 2024 schedule in Malaga with 89 routes in total, including 5 new routes to Bari, Bucharest, Lodz, Ostrava and Prague. With this record-breaking schedule, Ryanair will have three new aircraft based in Malaga (16 in total) by summer 2024 (additional $300 million investment), creating more than 90 new well-paid jobs for pilots and cabin crew.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/spanish/ryanair-anuncia-un-calendario-record-para-el-verano-2024-en-malaga/?market=es

[DP.]

https://planetradio.co.uk/tfm/local/news/new-holiday-routes-from-teesside-promised-as-part-of-re-election-campaign/

As an outsider, and thinking about all of the issues facing the country and local government at the moment, it really is surreal seeing a mayoral candidate making a major election pledge to have flights to the Costa del Sol and the Canaries.

[SWBKCB]

Where's the 'Like' button?

[TheSpiddalKid]

Isn't one of the omitted cogs in this discussiono that Ryanair will move around aircraft each season based on where it may be more profitable (or other reasons), a quick search throws up this from Winter 23

https://flightchic.com/2023/10/02/ryanair-reduces-winter-2023-schedule-due-to-boeing-aircraft-delivery-delays/

Ryanair is implementing several reductions in its Winter 2023 schedule to adapt to this unexpected development.

The number of Charleroi-based aircraft is reduced by three.
Dublin will see a reduction of two.
Five aircraft will be reduced across four Italian bases, including Bergamo, Naples, and Pisa.
East Midlands, Porto, and Cologne will also experience aircraft reductions

Isn't this about Ryanair looking at what aircraft it has for a season and where will generate the most profit?

It can be true that both MME will generate a profile on flights but MME isn't a priority as the opportunity cost is not utilising a route where more profit can be made.

[Bill Darlington]

Fundermentally this is more than just a couple of flights that may arrive, it's about the mayor making an election bribe, disgraceful behaviour plus it's up to Ryanair not the mayor to offer new routes
I hope voters to see what this is.

[Jamesair1]

"Election Bribe" that's diving into the realms of fantasy, considering the numbers who could possibly use a once or twice weekly service

[P330]

Fundermentally this is more than just a couple of flights that may arrive, it's about the mayor making an election bribe, disgraceful behaviour plus it's up to Ryanair not the mayor to offer new routes
I hope voters to see what this is.

Election bribe? Any evidence? If so, you may want to contact the police.

Or a politician making manifesto promises like every other politician. Bribes are illegal….election promises are not.

[Bill Darlington]

"If re-elected"..... sounds like a condition
"I'll bring flights " .....sounds like a reward
It should have been worded....when not if
I guess it's all in the interpretation

[onion]

"If re-elected"..... sounds like a condition
"I'll bring flights " .....sounds like a reward
It should have been worded....when not if
I guess it's all in the interpretation

News just, in Labour candidate manifesto to local voters includes.
policy pledges including the return of free town centre parking, a £2 fare cap on bus and train journeys, bringing bus services under public control, free travel to school or work for all under-18s, and investing in CCTV and other measures to “make our streets safe again”

Armchair experts praise the manifesto differentiating it from the bribes offered to voters by the Conservative candidate!

Honestly has silly season arrived already?

[Jamesair1]

It could be worse.....he could be offering free seats on these non existing flights....and the other candidate offers Big Brother to watch your every move and your very own money tree to pay for everything promised......... Politicians .......don't you just love them?

[SWBKCB]

Our plan is ahead of schedule, we are seeing record passenger numbers,

Anybody know what record is being referred to here? Passenger number were over three times higher than they are now in the mid 2000's. Or is it like football and the Premier League, and history started when the airport was bought?

​​​​​​​Whilst my Labour opposition wanted to close the airport and sell it off for housing

Other than H77's chats, is there evidence for this? My recollection is that Peel wanted to build houses on non-airside parts of the airport to fund the southside business park to try and return the airport to profitability, and would shut the airport if it continued to make losses - much as the Mayor has said - and this was agreed by the LA's.

[Cautious Optimist]

The houses were indeed on land too far removed from existing aviation infrastructure - and the Mayor deliberately claims otherwise, which to some extent is fair enough. And before anyone suggests it the increasingly mythical Willis development only overlaps on about 25% of this land (I suspect the Mayor chose to develop at a right angle to the existing apron purely to make a point, whereas extending to the west would be more logical).

I don't recall Peel actually going on record stating they would close the airport, they guaranteed five years sure, but never specified what would happen thereafter. Ignoring Covid there's no reason to believe it wouldn't have just rolled over, they wouldn't have installed a new radar among a host of other things otherwise.

[Jamesair1]

If we go back far enough on this thread, there was a link to a speech where the Labour candidate said that money would be better spent elsewhere and not wasted on trying to save the airport. (which he was against).

[Grumpy1]

I think that even those who worship the mayor must have realised that he has a tendency for invention as many politicians do.
There are some on here who interrogate and sadly manipulate the passenger figures but I think in simple terms the current numbers (that may decline this year) are less than 25% of those anticipated in the business plan that are said to be needed for long term viability.
The well documented Peel plan to fund the development of the airport by constructing the south side business park and build 350 house was approved by the Labour run authority but was intended to develop the airport not close it. A few months ago the mayor even posted a video of a Labour Councillor that referenced the funding of the airport as an airport by building houses.
The mayor has been previously challenged about making up the closure story an his explanation was that Peels plan would not have worked so the airport would have therefore closed. Appart from Harrold receiving his secret contradictory briefings from senior Labour officials I dont think there is any evidence to support the closure claims other than the obvious that if losses continued it may have closed one day.

[SWBKCB]

If we go back far enough on this thread, there was a link to a speech where the Labour candidate said that money would be better spent elsewhere and not wasted on trying to save the airport. (which he was against).

I think that was selective quoting and what he said was that spending would be reviewed. Happy to be proved wrong if somebody can find actual quotes?

[Harold77]

Best Passenger numbers since 2009. I wouldn't say records, but milestones.
2009 288,296
2023 226,326


There are some on here who interrogate and sadly manipulate the passenger figures but I think in simple terms the current numbers (that may decline this year) are less than 25% of those anticipated in the business plan that are said to be needed for long term viability.


What makes you think that passenger numbers will decline this year.

If you look at aircraft seating capacity for this year for public flights, it stands at 383,874 seats. Significant increase of capacity and extra services on the Amsterdam route, that accounts at 212,504 aircraft seating capacity for this year.

So facts don't point to a reduction in numbers this year, but actually an increase in numbers. So I am pretty certain we will surpass last years figure of 226,326 by some margin.

[SWBKCB]

Best Passenger numbers since 2009. I wouldn't say records, but milestones.
2009 288,296
2023 226,326

.

Record was the word used, when the actual record is 918,000 in 2006, so not even remotely close. Accuracy isn't a strong point.

[Markushillman]

Best Passenger numbers since 2009. I wouldn't say records, but milestones.
2009 288,296
2023 226,326



What makes you think that passenger numbers will decline this year.

If you look at aircraft seating capacity for this year for public flights, it stands at 383,874 seats. Significant increase of capacity and extra services on the Amsterdam route, that accounts at 212,504 aircraft seating capacity for this year.

So facts don't point to a reduction in numbers this year, but actually an increase in numbers. So I am pretty certain we will surpass last years figure of 226,326 by some margin.

Amsterdam goes down to 2x daily during peak summer not sure you would call that extra services

[Harold77]

Amsterdam goes down to 2x daily during peak summer not sure you would call that extra services

Take a look at weekend services, they are increased compared to previous years. Also increased sized aircraft on route throughout the summer timetable.

[Harold77]

Record was the word used, when the actual record is 918,000 in 2006, so not even remotely close. Accuracy isn't a strong point.

I was saying I'd have used term milestones rather than records.

But as you said earlier. Is it a case of saying record numbers in ownership.

Going off CAA yearly stats has 2006 down as 900,107 Terminal Passengers. But when add each Month up only comes to 899,892.
I had it written down as 911,925 for 2006.

[Grumpy1]

Harold reminds us that in 2023 there were only 226,326 passengers. Not sure anybody really cares if the numbers increase or decrease by a few percent in 2024 or how the figures compare with whatever date in the past that he chooses. Problem is that the Mayors business plan predicted and anticipated a 10 fold increase in passengers by 2023. I am sure that Harold will remind us about Covid and that Brexit has had a more detrimental affect on the regional economy than most expected. We should be comparing 226,326 with the promised 1,300,000 in 2023 as per the development plan that was the justification of the investment. This is only 17% so we certainly should not be selling such a number as an indication of success and going forward, may I suggest that the percentage of target is quoted to give a true measure of performance rather than comparison with some random date before the investment.

[ATNotts]

As a "red wall" Tory the last thing he'll blame is their pet project!

Problem for Teesside along with many other smaller airports is that domestic flying has reduced since Covid and the principal LoCos are gravitating towards the larger regional hubs.

How the Mayor expects to buck those two trends is difficult to fathom. The Welsh and Scottish governments have precisely the same issues to address at Cardiff and Prestwick.

[Cautious Optimist]

Just ran some numbers. In the mid-2000s, there were [approximately] 17 charter or low cost airlines that did or might have served MME, and a further 15 European ones. Que the 2008 recession, and you now have four UK and five European, of which two of the latter have moved away from charter flying, and similarly the UK operators tend not to contract the European ones much any more, and there are no independent tour operators left who would contract the European ones themselves. Of the four UK operators, only one would not be deterred by the sandwich effect/overlapping catchment areas etc also caused by the 2008 recession, and might eventually consider an MME base.

[Harold77]

You are totally unbelievable Grumpy1.

You do realise that there has been at least two updates to the Business Plan since the Full Business Case was put to the cabinet for purchase and that plan had three scenarios. When he mentions that they are ahead of the business plan it is referring to the most recent updated plan.

Comparison with some random date before the investment you say.

All I have done is say that when we have last seen such numbers.

Of the three ICF scenarios of the purchase Business Case we are seem to be currently following is Scenario 2 which had expectation of 372,000 passengers by 31st March 2027.

We have completely surpassed Scenario 1 expectations.

So given Covid and the fallout that has occurred following within the aviation industry with the engine and manufacturing issues.
I am happy with progress so far, as I can read things in context it shows a picture on how things are progressing.

As far as the Business Plan it had revenue expectation based on Scenario 3 of £17m by 31st March 2023. We saw £15.6m by that date. So that will be well up on Scenario 2.
So total expected Revenues Scenario 3 to 31st March 2023 is £56.03m
Total Revenues we have seen upto 31st March 2023 is £43.38m

So taking into account the two affected Covid years, then revenues would have roughly matched that figure.

Put things into context then you can see the picture and it isn't as bad as what you make it out to be.

[Grumpy1]

Dont recall any anouncement that the much publicised business plan had been abandoned and cant find the link to the revised plan but sure Harold will be able to help.

[Harold77]

Grumpy1, The Business Plan has been updated at least twice.

But since you say you don't follow/ look at stuff online, rather just get opinions from other people, then its bound to have missed you out.

[Grumpy1]

Harold is quite correct, I most certainly dont spend my days trawling through the interweb but it would be nice if he would point a luddite and the rest of us to the big announcements and the downgraded scenario's.

[pug]

Just ran some numbers. In the mid-2000s, there were [approximately] 17 charter or low cost airlines that did or might have served MME, and a further 15 European ones. Que the 2008 recession, and you now have four UK and five European, of which two of the latter have moved away from charter flying, and similarly the UK operators tend not to contract the European ones much any more, and there are no independent tour operators left who would contract the European ones themselves. Of the four UK operators, only one would not be deterred by the sandwich effect/overlapping catchment areas etc also caused by the 2008 recession, and might eventually consider an MME base.

I was going to post a similar response to ATNotts. If you beat me to it. The operating environment has changed considerably in favour of established airports since 2008 when the lagging old guard of operators finally went to the wall.

With all the consolidation in the number of airlines, and their favouring of a smaller number of bigger departure points where they can pool resources, added to by the environmental impact of flying meaning costs are borne by the airlines (and therefor the passengers) I cannot see any appetite to start adding flights from airlports like MME, no matter how much an airport owner/operator might be prepared to throw at the airlines to entice them. I think MME should play to its strengths, but those aren’t necessarily multiple daily flights to the Spanish costas, and the local electorate should therefore not be misled to believe that this is a real growth area.

[Harold77]

All three Scenarios were put forward in the Business Case and accepted by the boards. So the Business Case was built on three Scenarios all of which are stated and outcomes described in the Business Case.

One good place for info can be the TVCA pages and Cabinet minutes for snippets.
Still expecting to hit 1.4m passengers in the next 10 years.


From TVCA January's Adoption of Investment Plan Budget 2024-25 and MTFP
Teesside Airport 47.
The Airport continues to perform in line with the revised Business plan presented to Cabinet in July 2022 and this will continue to be closely monitored.

[pug]

All three Scenarios were put forward in the Business Case and accepted by the boards. So the Business Case was built on three Scenarios all of which are stated and outcomes described in the Business Case.

One good place for info can be the TVCA pages and Cabinet minutes for snippets.
Still expecting to hit 1.4m passengers in the next 10 years.


From TVCA January's Adoption of Investment Plan Budget 2024-25 and MTFP
Teesside Airport 47.
The Airport continues to perform in line with the revised Business plan presented to Cabinet in July 2022 and this will continue to be closely monitored.

Who are ‘the board’, where have they got 1.4mppa in ten years from? Where are those airlines coming from that are going to deliver almost 5 times the current number in passenger throughput?

As things stand there are hardly any airlines and little appetite for those few airlines to invest in a small airport with low relative economic output.

Same should be said for DSA. Expecting large scale growth in passenger numbers is basically setting themselves up to fail, particularly in this climate that is not going to improve for airlines.

[Grumpy1]

People with lives are unlikely to wade through the minutes of TVCA meetings so may I again ask, were was it publicly anounced that the origional publish plans had been abandoned and downgraded.

[Harold77]

I have a busy life and can find out stuff, it only takes two minutes.

[Grumpy1]

So where and when were the important changes made public please for those of us who dont have the time to track down and read the minutes of meetings?

[onion]

The fact is that the passenger numbers are a kpi but there are others.
At the end of the day the bottom line is the most important thing. Taking that, the airport is ahead of the turnaround business plan.
Grumpy are you willing to accept the the airport is financially ahead of where it planned to be and that at the end of the day is all that counts, turning around the airport and returning it to profit?

So my question is.... are you bothered by how many passengers fly or if the airport is making progress to returning to profit?

[Harold77]

This is about the November 2020 update to the Business Plan.
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/17-TIAL-Business-Plan-Update.pdf

January 2024 meeting
Point 47 on page 8
Teesside Airport 47.
The Airport continues to perform in line with the revised Business plan presented to Cabinet in July 2022 and this will continue to be closely monitored.
Plus
Appendix E on page 25
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/6-Adoption-of-Investment-Plan-Budget-2024-25-and-MTFP.pdf


Look on this page then click on dates, info about airport can be found in the following:
Mayors Update
Investment Plan Performance Report
Budget Report Medium Plan Updates
Minutes/ Draft Minutes

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/leadership/cabinet-boards-committees/meetings/cabinet-meetings-and-papers/

[Harold77]

Aircraft Seating Capacity 2024 with what is currently known. (This was mainly done back in early January)

Alicante 50,038
Corfu 8,316
Faro 22,680
Palma 40,926
Aberdeen 35,280
Bourgas 6,480
Dalaman 4,914
Jersey 2,736
Amsterdam 212,504

Total 383,874 aircraft seating capacity on scheduled public flights.

Public Charter flights
Reykjavik 400
Pajala 378
Enontekio 756
Isle of Man 116

Total 385,524 Aircraft Seating Capacity for Public Scheduled & Charter.

So with 2023 seeing 226,326 passengers. Adding in all the other private charters, I'd have a guess at Passenger Numbers for 2024 will be somewhere in region of 265-290k.

[N707ZS]

Under your seating capacity calculation, how many seats were there in 2023 Harold.

[Harold77]

I never done one for last year.

[Bill Darlington]

Under your seating capacity calculation, how many seats were there in 2023 Harold.
Harold, I thank you for your informative calculations, very interesting, I not so sure the passenger numbers will increase that much
,2024 will be a tough year for all, with high interest levels, ever rising costs, fixed mortgage coming to an end and much more, holidays may well suffer and passenger levels will likely remain as per last year, and there's an election coming, does that also hinder spending.
From your figures it looks that off season load is not looking good, I'm guessing, maybe you could comment on that

[Harold77]

Why is this year different to any other year regarding mortgages. Answer is zilch, fixed rate mortgages finish every year for thousands of people all around the country. You just transfer to a new deal, There's lots of options and deals available.

[Grumpy1]

Harold asks why is this year different from any other year?
Oh now that is an easy one. Brexit, Boris Jonhson and Liz Trust. Unless anybody can offer a better explanation for mortgages and the cost of living increasing by record amounts.

[Jamesair1]

You are missing out a few 'minor' points...i.e. ..a war in Ukraine and the minor matter of Covid plus seemingly endless strikes

[Grumpy1]

Jamesair is correct to mention the war as contributing to the cost of living crisis but Harold seems to believe that it's a typical year in respect the cost of mortgages and not sure that the war has greatly impacted on the number of repossessions or the folks now in debt because of the increase in mortgage costs. Not sure that Covid is still affecting us.

[pug]

You are missing out a few 'minor' points...i.e. ..a war in Ukraine and the minor matter of Covid plus seemingly endless strikes

Regardless, air travel bounced back last year after Covid. I alluded to it earlier but I’ll ask now…. How is Teesside Airport going to buck the trend over the last 15+ years of airlines consolidating most of their services into fewer, larger bases?

[Harold77]

Harold asks why is this year different from any other year?

My response is to why is this year different. People last year and year before came off fixed rate mortgages with rates high and it is said that mortgage rates are going to start falling again this year after the previous two years. People coming off fixed rate mortgages will still be able to get competitive rates on new deals, as usually case of dropping into next percentage brackets regarding deal rates. Energy prices have come down significantly since last winter and will still drop this year. So why is this year different, People still flew all over the world last year.

[N707ZS]

Also the prices of the flights have increased.

[Bill Darlington]

Yes Ryanair said that prices will be going up another 10% , and economists often mention " confidence in the economy"....I don't see much of that right now, so many folks unhappy on strike and feel underpaid, so perhaps flights will be super price sensitive ,

[P330]

Yes Ryanair said that prices will be going up another 10% , and economists often mention " confidence in the economy"....I don't see much of that right now, so many folks unhappy on strike and feel underpaid, so perhaps flights will be super price sensitive ,

I agree with you Bill. Tough year ahead economically and that will have an impact. Interestingly I read the Jet2 trading update today and it said holidays are proving resilient to economic issues….but there is only so much resilience out there.

[Harold77]

Yes Ryanair said that prices will be going up another 10% , and economists often mention " confidence in the economy"....I don't see much of that right now, so many folks unhappy on strike and feel underpaid, so perhaps flights will be super price sensitive ,

Going up 10% if your fare is £35 that means increase of £3.50, if fare is £70 then increase is £7.

If your set on going on holiday an extra three quid or fifteen quid on your airfare ain't gonna stop people going on holiday. People going on holiday set a budget so extra 15 - 20 isn't going to cause any issues and if as a family it slightly changing some other budgets around. People go on holiday to relax and get away from the UK. Going to take more than 10% to put people off.

[pug]

Going up 10% if your fare is £35 that means increase of £3.50, if fare is £70 then increase is £7.

If your set on going on holiday an extra three quid or fifteen quid on your airfare ain't gonna stop people going on holiday. People going on holiday set a budget so extra 15 - 20 isn't going to cause any issues and if as a family it slightly changing some other budgets around. People go on holiday to relax and get away from the UK. Going to take more than 10% to put people off.

Whats this got to do with Teesside and its inability to generate enough volume?

[Harold77]

Well what relevance does Bill's post have to do with Teesside, as was commenting to his comments.

Since TVCA purchased the airport from Peel, the business has been increasing.

Revenues significantly UP, Highest ever recorded and increasing
Passengers UP
Cargo UP
Aircraft movements UP
Fuel sales UP
Employment UP
Facilities EXPANDING
Companies at airport EXPANDING
Companies locating to the airport

[SWBKCB]

Taxpayer funding UP

[N707ZS]

Going up 10% if your fare is £35 that means increase of £3.50, if fare is £70 then increase is £7.

If your set on going on holiday an extra three quid or fifteen quid on your airfare ain't gonna stop people going on holiday. People going on holiday set a budget so extra 15 - 20 isn't going to cause any issues and if as a family it slightly changing some other budgets around. People go on holiday to relax and get away from the UK. Going to take more than 10% to put people off.

If I were you I would go and look at the fares they have gone up more than 10%.

[Harold77]

If I were you I would go and look at the fares they have gone up more than 10%.

I was responding to Bill's comment of 10%.

[Harold77]

Taxpayer funding UP

Nothing different to other Airports. Take a look up the road at Newcastle Airport, £68m tax payer loans from the local councils a decade ago that are still being repaid. No different to Teesside is it.

[Grumpy1]

Some classics from Harold tonight.

[pug]

Nothing different to other Airports. Take a look up the road at Newcastle Airport, £68m tax payer loans from the local councils a decade ago that are still being repaid. No different to Teesside is it.

Interested how you could compare Newcastle airport with its 2022 passenger figures at over 4 million and likely higher last year, with multiple daily flights to a number of key European and long haul destinations, to Teesside which handled less than 300,000 passengers, the bulk of those on an airline that is most likely being paid to fly from there.

I get it, there’s more to an airport than passengers. But actually, when it comes to the electorate, so they really care about Draken or some paint spraying business? I question the value for money when compared to how it was being run under a private sector operator where it maintained the KLM link and cost the local tax payer nothing.

[SWBKCB]

Some classics from Harold tonight.

I question the value for money when compared to how it was being run under a private sector operator where it maintained the KLM link and cost the local tax payer nothing.

Yes, eventually had to resort to 'whataboutery' and pug is right to pick up on value for money. If you ignore all the Mayoral tomfoolery and shennanigans, you get down to the fundamental issues of spending taxpayers money and there are three concerns:

1. is the money being spent in the right areas? Are you getting the best for Teesside, what's the opportunity cost to the area? Note all talk of 'Global connectivity' and 'if you can't fly there, you won't invest' has disappeared;

2. are you getting value for money - are you spending the money on the right things? Did all that money have to be spent in the terminal, is the freight centre a 'white elephant'?

3. Is the money being spent appropriately - is it being spent in an open and transparent way, are contacts awared fairly, is there competition, are the individual contracts value for money?

[Bill Darlington]

Just think about it, it's not the few extra £ on a flight it the whole holiday has gone up 10% and on a holiday for a family with 2 children,that could mean an extra £400 and if you put that on a credit card, which I'm sure a lot of people do, nowadays because of the cost of living, ........that comes with a 25% interest, ... so now your 2024 holiday really has gone up significantly, I just wonder if it will have some effect...oh I nearly forgot I'm sure holiday insurance will also have risen ,

[pug]

Just think about it, it's not the few extra £ on a flight it the whole holiday has gone up 10% and on a holiday for a family with 2 children,that could mean an extra £400 and if you put that on a credit card, which I'm sure a lot of people do, nowadays because of the cost of living, ........that comes with a 25% interest, ... so now your 2024 holiday really has gone up significantly, I just wonder if it will have some effect...oh I nearly forgot I'm sure holiday insurance will also have risen ,

To add, that is the price of a holiday usually from a busy airport where, as said previously, there is critical mass and a pooled resource which means typically those seats are cheaper. Back in the days of MME and HUY punching above their weight in IT Charter programs, the passengers were charged a premium for flying from their local airport. Doesn’t work that way any more really.

[Harold77]

Just think about it, it's not the few extra £ on a flight it the whole holiday has gone up 10% and on a holiday for a family with 2 children,that could mean an extra £400 and if you put that on a credit card, which I'm sure a lot of people do, nowadays because of the cost of living, ........that comes with a 25% interest, ... so now your 2024 holiday really has gone up significantly, I just wonder if it will have some effect...oh I nearly forgot I'm sure holiday insurance will also have risen ,

You said Ryanair prices rising by 10% for which I commented on. Now you are changing your tune to include whole holiday deal. Since when was Ryanair responsible for holidays, they only do flights and nothing anything else.

So my comments were about you inferring that Ryanair's 10% fare increase would have ramifications. It didn't refer to anything else other than the fare increase.

So please don't take my comments by adding anything other to than what I was replying about.

If you want to have included other stuff then you should have made that clear originally. Then my reply to your original comment would have reflected to what you said.

[Grumpy1]

Thanks to the last couple of posters for introducing some sanity. Based on his comments last night, Harold seems to operate in a world where mortgages (and presumably rents) have not gone up dramatically, the masive increase in utility bills are not impacting on families with the rising cost of a family holiday limited to the increased cost of a ticket for one.
The increased parking charges at MME (that the mayor forgot to anounce) means that it could now be less expensive to drive to LBA or NCL where the air fares and the cost of a package is generally less expensive.
Incidentally, although the mayor is still telling drivers who object to being charged to drop off to "buy a coffee" it seems that the minimum spend is now £5!!! Ouch.

[mmeman]

I am sure a while back there was some talk of posting when something aviation wise actually happened.... I am not sure anything new has been said for weeks! I would love to know why the people on here seem to want the airport to close.. I assume that is the ultimate reason all these posts that contradict anything anyone positive has to say about the place? Why anyone would want to see fellow colleagues lose their jobs on a professional aviation forum baffles me.. unless they feel threatened in some way by Teesside remaining open?

Dont forget it was the taxpayers of the Tees Valley that overwhelmingly chose to vote in the Mayor, on his one election promise, which he delivered - so the people who voted in the mayoral election seem to be quite happy the money was spent on the Airport. And that money was already given to the Tees Valley Combined Authority to spend so it was already allocated so no one from outside the area can complain that the money has been spent on the airport as that is what the Tees valley voters wanted.

Yes it is tough environment for the airport, but they obviously recognise that, by trying attracting other investments such as Airbourne Colours and that is what they need to concentrate on doing. There were jobs advertised for Fed Ex cargo handlers but who knows if that is happening, but this is what they currently need to concentrate on.

I just get very confused by all the negativity on an aviation forum - is it politically motivated too? I do think that is an issue for the airport that will need to be sorted to progress.

[SWBKCB]

Have there been many (any?) posts supporting the closure of the airport? I think the criticism is more about how things have been done and the antics of the mayor. Of course he has an electorate mandate, but that isn't carte blanche.

And the thread wasn't exactly full of positive support for the previous owners - politically motivated?

[Grumpy1]

Dont recall seeing a post from anybody who wants to airport close. I would suggest that most if not all are desperate for the airport to flourish
There is however a recognition that apart from the aircraft painting hanger that will employ only a small number of people there has been little real progress in the last couple of years. Passenger numbers are well below what was promised and viability and freight is none existent so it is legitimate to question the reason for this given the excellence of our facilities. The Willis Village appears to have been (shall we say) exaggerated and the apparent lack of interest in the south side is certainly worrying.
The Financial Times and Private Eye plus others are continuing to question the integrity of the mayor which undoubtedly impacts on the airport and potential investors will see these reports.
Making up positive stories will not impress those who look at the facts and see the numbers and may even be seen by the people who mater as evidence of desperation.
Let's hope that with the right management and less political interference the airport will grow.

[P330]

So, here’s a thing.

We’ve questioned the mayor and his integrity multiple times. We’ve questioned whether we’re on track multiple times (and answered that we’re below some original expectations but ahead of others). We’ve questioned whether we’re getting a return on taxpayers investment multiple times.

is there any reason why we’re posting the same stuff, week in, week out without any new information?

I used to love the conversations about genuine airport news but it’s the same stuff every day. Have we got anything new and interesting to say?

[Grumpy1]

P330 probably makes a valid observation.
In resect of his final paragraph, perhaps the issue is that other than the corruption report and confirmation of the painting facility, there have been very few developments of late.
Looking forward to discussing the commencement of proper freight operations and the announcement of new routes plus tenants at the south side although they are unlikely to have conections to aviation.
If we get a Labour mayor (scary) he has promised to open the books that we have been prevented from seeing. Now that will certainly promote discussion.

[FlyMME]

So, here’s a thing.

We’ve questioned the mayor and his integrity multiple times. We’ve questioned whether we’re on track multiple times (and answered that we’re below some original expectations but ahead of others). We’ve questioned whether we’re getting a return on taxpayers investment multiple times.

is there any reason why we’re posting the same stuff, week in, week out without any new information?

I used to love the conversations about genuine airport news but it’s the same stuff every day. Have we got anything new and interesting to say?

Absolutely this. The same people having the same arguments over and over - no one is going to convince the other to change their mind.

So on the topic of actual airport stuff, has there been any further rumblings about the rumoured FedEx flights? Seems to have gone very quiet in that regard.

[onion]

Just to provide some counter to what has been said.
Wages are now going up quicker than inflation and energy bills are forecast to come down so people in theory will have more to spend heading into the summer!

Agree though people are using specific facts to argue their case ie passenger figure to argue that there isn't a return on the cost.
Well, the important thing for the airport is to make money by the end of the turn around and that's the bottom line, forget about passenger numbers. Look at the cold hard business case not some politicans promise as we all know, red, blue, yellow or any other colour they are all sound bites!
I would really be interested in what the values the airport currently brings, direct and indirect jobs and the taxes and spending power generated goes towards off setting what has been spent on the place.
Let's face it 12-15 ATC controllers at £70k a go is alot of spending power before you add in all the pilots and Draken!
On top of that the airport is owned as we all know by the taxpayer of the region and as such if it does fail the debt is owed back to the taxpayer if and when they realise the assets!

[onion]

Absolutely this. The same people having the same arguments over and over - no one is going to convince the other to change their mind.

So on the topic of actual airport stuff, has there been any further rumblings about the rumoured FedEx flights? Seems to have gone very quiet in that regard.
There was mention of it going to MAN!

[highwideandugly]

My feeling is benji s PR machine ..with regards to the airport and free port is always in overdrive .

Announcements are made..months in advance and get everyone’s hopes up..however the truth somewhat differs.

Newcastle have over the years had massive announcements re south Side developments also..take a look..aviation wise nothing.Business wise..not much more!

It’s a tough world out there!

A new government may possibly change the picture completely..time will tell..

[Grumpy1]

Not a good idea to post gossip as there is a danger of falling into the "I've been told that" trap but in respect of FedEx, friends in logistics told me last year that an anouncement was expected in December and operations to commence a few months later. Ofcourse that didnt happen (which is why it's a good idea not to post these things) and all that they have subsequently learnt is that there are/were difficulties to overcome.
We also had the experimental fruit and veg flights from Africa (and this is unsupported gossip) the story is that the CAA declined to approve operations.
Appologies to those who know that facts and I hope that I havnt reported anything that should remain confidential.