Teesside-2

[N707ZS]

Yes but not on line.

[davidjohnson6]

MME can breathe easily again... the plan to cut slots at AMS has been deferred by at least a year, probably longer

[SWBKCB]

Don't think Teesside was holding it's breath...

[N707ZS]

Willis will soon have all of the parking spaces with 11 aircraft due by Christmas.

[SWBKCB]

Willis will son have all of the parking spaces with 11 aircraft due by Christmas.

Is that 11 more or there will be a total of 11 on site by Christmas?

[N707ZS]

Supposed 11 total parked by Christmas.

[highwideandugly]

Holding also tonight due no staff ! It’s getting big….but is the infrastructure ready?

Won’t be long before no parking available due scrapping aircraft!

[N707ZS]

The solution is to build a new fence around the cross runway on the Southside.

[oldart]

The solution is to build a new fence around the cross runway on the Southside.
Will the old runway 28 take the weight now?

[N707ZS]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/teesside_airport_view_1_07_23_28_ce0016376770d184619c51d8a47 ab30b85bdf5fd.jpg
Here it is cleared but just lacking a fence. Could the problem be its not the airports land anymore.

[Harold77]

Supposed 11 total parked by Christmas.

What Willis has in so far:
A319 G-EZAW, EZAY, EZBB, EZBC, EZBF
A320 EI-IKB
A321 OE-IDY
BAe RJ100 C-FNWT
BAe 146 EC-ELT
ATR42 G-ISLH

I know Willis own 10x of easyJet's 319s, so presume these are what are coming in over time.

[N707ZS]

Harold I would cross off the wrecks from your list. I would also give credit to the airport movements site where you gained the info from. The guys spend hours on that site.

[MKY661]

What Willis has in so far:
A319 G-EZAW, EZAY, EZBB, EZBC, EZBF
A320 EI-IKB
A321 OE-IDY
BAe RJ100 C-FNWT
BAe 146 EC-ELT
ATR42 G-ISLH

I know Willis own 10x of easyJet's 319s, so presume these are what are coming in over time.

Two of the Willis owned EasyJet A319's left last winter. A sixth arrived on Tuesday (G-EZBE) and I saw that the Teesside movements site stated that a seventh (OE-LKI) is due shortly.

[Grumpy1]

On the subject of Willis, we know that they had until early September to complete the requirements of the planning application for the Village but did not follow it up and since then they have not requested an extension. A certain politician told us that they actually had approval with 250 jobs coming and a notorious inventor of gen on here and on FB told us the the diggers were ready to go. Not sure when the option to request an extension runs out so may still be time yet.

[N707ZS]

Might this explain the lack of a Faro flight appearing on the Teesside Ryanair flights .
Ryanair flights: Airline reduces flights to Portugal over 'unjustified' 17% increase in airport fares (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/ryanair-flights-airline-reduces-flights-to-portugal-over-unjustified-17-increase-in-airport-fares/ar-AA1kpNAZ?ocid=msedgdhphdr&cvid=1c818650acc64a3da0352e8e90eff557&ei=7)

[pug]

Might this explain the lack of a Faro flight appearing on the Teesside Ryanair flights .
Ryanair flights: Airline reduces flights to Portugal over 'unjustified' 17% increase in airport fares (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/ryanair-flights-airline-reduces-flights-to-portugal-over-unjustified-17-increase-in-airport-fares/ar-AA1kpNAZ?ocid=msedgdhphdr&cvid=1c818650acc64a3da0352e8e90eff557&ei=7)

Classic tactic, airport raises its fees and airline pulls routes that it wasn’t all that bothered about anyway (but still keep a large presence at said airport) then use it as a bargaining chip. Happened in Alicante over air bridge fees but it just allowed them to pull a load of marginal routes and redeploy the aircraft elsewhere.

[Cautious Optimist]

A mere two flights a week to Faro should not be falling under marginal when we used to sustain double that

[SWBKCB]

Look at the load factors compared to RYR's system average

[pug]

A mere two flights a week to Faro should not be falling under marginal when we used to sustain double that

Two flights a week is a drop in the ocean when taking into account the entire Ryanair network. If they are pulling an aircraft it will take with it routes that, like Teesside, are served twice per week and are not really meaningful strategically regardless of load factors or any other statistic you want to look at. Not the first time and won’t be the last.

[SWBKCB]

I would hazard a guess that it's the weaker performing routes that have been pulled. If they were making good money they'd have found a way.

[pug]

I would hazard a guess that it's the weaker performing routes that have been pulled. If they were making good money they'd have found a way.

In all probability the FAO-MME wasn’t a goldmine, but nor was it a poor performer. Probably just a bog standard route that is disposable as it’s a non-base destination next door to two bases. Like I say, what is the strategic significance of Teesside to the Ryanair network?

This assumes it has been dropped, but patterns would dictate that this is the case, they’ve done it countless times this way before.

[Cautious Optimist]

Not doubting any of the reasons, just saying that it *shouldn't* be the case

[caaardiff]

In all probability the FAO-MME wasn’t a goldmine, but nor was it a poor performer. Probably just a bog standard route that is disposable as it’s a non-base destination next door to two bases. Like I say, what is the strategic significance of Teesside to the Ryanair network?

This assumes it has been dropped, but patterns would dictate that this is the case, they’ve done it countless times this way before.

The same applies to CWL-FAO and EXT-FAO, neither of which have been put on sale. Last winter CWL-FAO operated but was dropped this winter. There's one strange lone flight on March 26th that's been on sale for some time.
Summer load factors were between 88% up to 97%, so bums were on seats but will likely be a casualty of the fees dispute.

[highwideandugly]

Harold77 you seem to have your finger on the pulse! Any news on Faro yet for next year..or any additions in the pipeline as promised?

[HH6702]

Harold77 you seem to have your finger on the pulse! Any news on Faro yet for next year..or any additions in the pipeline as promised?

it’s all gone very quiet.
anything new for 2024 if it’s going to happen will be on sale before Christmas

[P330]

If it helps with the answer, Faro is still on the drop down menu - there is just nothing for sale. I also believe the airport are hoping that it is just a timing issue.

As for new routes…..all quiet.

As things stand, and hopefully this changes, 2024 will be down on this year based on what is available to buy today.

(Note consumer demand is slowing as is evidenced by Jet2’s narrative about forward bookings in their results release….so likely a difficult period coming up for airlines and their fare paying passengers).

[highwideandugly]

Unless operational through Edinburgh!

Interesting times for all marginal..and non marginal airports.
Off topic..but connected..friend of mines mortgage just nicely jumped £425 per month..he was planning a holiday..not now!

Wonder if this is repeated x a couple of million people how it will affect travel?

[Harold77]

Harold77 you seem to have your finger on the pulse! Any news on Faro yet for next year..or any additions in the pipeline as promised?

On some aviation news sites saying Ryanair pulling some based aircraft out of Portugal due to airport operators hiking up fees n taxes. Same in Germany pulling aircraft out of Germany. Ryanair are also short on new aircraft deliveries which are running massively behind schedule, so in turn is having scheduling effects on expansion plans across the company, since they won't know what they have to play with. But if they are set to pull aircraft out of Germany & Portugal it could be a case of where these aircraft will be dispersed to and what options these aircraft will open up. So could it be that possibility of loosing large amount of traffic with various operators that airport owners/ authorities in both countries see a bit of a climb down and see aircraft remain there and not be pulled thus scheduling can be returned. So just a case of watch this space as things can change rapidly in the aviation industry.

Last year Teesside Financial Accounts were published on Companies House on 14th December.

Next TVCA Cabinet meeting is 15th December. So would expect some snippets of info on airport in the Mayors Update.
First Quarter budget report Investment Plan Projects from September meeting show airport financial year budget 2022-23 £15.3m, 2023-24 £17.6m then zero budgeted in years following. These figures are revised up and down each quarter, so don't read too much into these figures. But may be case of when more funding pots open up for certain investment projects, then we could see funding budgeted if more projects get put forward in the future.

[SWBKCB]

On some aviation news sites saying Ryanair pulling some based aircraft out of Portugal due to airport operators hiking up fees n taxes. Same in Germany pulling aircraft out of Germany. Ryanair are also short on new aircraft deliveries which are running massively behind schedule, so in turn is having scheduling effects on expansion plans across the company, since they won't know what they have to play with. But if they are set to pull aircraft out of Germany & Portugal it could be a case of where these aircraft will be dispersed to and what options these aircraft will open up. So could it be that possibility of loosing large amount of traffic with various operators that airport owners/ authorities in both countries see a bit of a climb down and see aircraft remain there and not be pulled thus scheduling can be returned. So just a case of watch this space as things can change rapidly in the aviation industry.

But most other RYR routes from FAO are now on sale. If RYR are culling routes due to late deliveries, it'll be the weaker one's - which will be getting weaker as customers book alternatives.

[N707ZS]

The airport seems to be concentration on the new hangars with rumours that Willis might take them.

[SWBKCB]

Passengers have voted Teesside International Airport as the Best UK Airport for Leisure Travel at the country’s biggest travel awards. The airport picked up the gong at the British Travel Awards – the largest survey of consumer opinion on everything to do with leisure travel. The awards cover the whole holiday sector, with travel companies, cruise lines, travel agents, hotel brands, airlines and airports all in the running.

​​​​​​​The majority of the flights for next year’s summer season are now on sale, with Ryanair offering services to Faro in Portugal, Majorca and Corfu alongside a three-times weekly year-round Alicante service

My bold - interesting?

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teesside-voted-best-uk-airport-for-leisure-travel-at-british-travel-awards/

[N707ZS]

Looks like something the mayors office has churned out to the public. There has been some hard work by Friends of Teesside airport to get people to vote.

[P330]

My bold - interesting?

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teesside-voted-best-uk-airport-for-leisure-travel-at-british-travel-awards/

I've heard that we should keep an eye on the Ryanair website for updates on when Faro will be released, so I think there is an expectation that it will come on sale at some point. The fact it is still on the drop down menu suggests that is the case too.

However, I do think the chances of new routes coming on line for next year are ebbing away now.

[MARKEYD]

Southend is in the drop down and that base closed years ago
Cardiff to Belfast is in the drop down and that finished in the summer

Regarding Faro as previously discussed many UK airports still not featured for summer

ABZ
EXT
BOH
CWL
NQY

[Convair 440]

The airport seems to be concentration on the new hangars with rumours that Willis might take them.
They are still awaiting a decision on Darlington Borough Council planning website pages

[Grumpy1]

“They are still awaiting a decision on Darlington Borough Council planning website”

The Mayor made a big announcement stating that Planing Approval had been granted and we were getting 5 new hanger's and 250 new jobs. Sadly that wasn’t quite true as the scheme received only outline approval subject to numerous stringent conditions to be fulfilled by September but no further submissions were made. The Mayor stopped mentioning the Village shortly after his announcement and ignores all questions about it so I think most worked out quite soon that the project was dead, if it was ever alive.
Stockton Council are “minded to approve” the two hangers beside the station although the Mayor has again reported that approval has been granted. It’s pretty obvious who the tenants will be if they are built.

[Convair 440]

“They are still awaiting a decision on Darlington Borough Council planning website”

The Mayor made a big announcement stating that Planing Approval had been granted and we were getting 5 new hanger's and 250 new jobs. Sadly that wasn’t quite true as the scheme received only outline approval subject to numerous stringent conditions to be fulfilled by September but no further submissions were made. The Mayor stopped mentioning the Village shortly after his announcement and ignores all questions about it so I think most worked out quite soon that the project was dead, if it was ever alive.
Stockton Council are “minded to approve” the two hangers beside the station although the Mayor has again reported that approval has been granted. It’s pretty obvious who the tenants will be if they are built.
the 2 hangar are north of the runway so the decision lies with Darlington Borough Council

[N707ZS]

I have just spotted another whopper, TUI has also expanded its offering from Teesside this year, with twice-weekly flights to Majorca and it will also introduce flights to Dalaman, Turkey in 2024. Its not an expansion just a change of route from Antalya.

[highwideandugly]

A few whoppers abound..thanks to the vibrant world of Facebook!

However..passengers, freight and general airfield activity has increased year on year thanks to the massive investment..no denying that.

Question is..when that funding/investment slows or drys up ..what happens then?

[N707ZS]

Looks like the head fell of the brush this morning with a 2 hour departure delay on the KLM. Snow was minimal.

[Grumpy1]

“Question is..when that funding/investment slows or drys up ..what happens then?”

You make a very good point.
Dependant on the conclusions of the still to be published corruption enquiry we may have a new mayor soon although most anticipate a whitewash.
We keep being told that there will be change of government next year although I am not convinced. If there is a new government however they may be less inclined to provide massive funding when the only improvement over the Peel days is a few seasonal flights to tacky Mediterranean bucket and spade destinations and few transit vans worth of freight (funded by the taxpayer) although there is always a prospect of more freight. OK we have a refurbished terminal and a price hike in the car park.
Some insist on trying to manipulate the passenger numbers but they remain well short of being sustainable and there appears no prospect of getting even close to the business plan any time soon, if ever.

[SWBKCB]

The arguement is that the investment is to put the airport in a position where it comes selfsufficient, i.e. investment in the terminal leads to more income from passengers, investment in hangars/business park generates income from rents, as does getting more business tenants/Christmas parties in the terminal. Whether it works or not is the big question.

[P330]

“Question is..when that funding/investment slows or drys up ..what happens then?”

You make a very good point.
Dependant on the conclusions of the still to be published corruption enquiry we may have a new mayor soon although most anticipate a whitewash.
We keep being told that there will be change of government next year although I am not convinced. If there is a new government however they may be less inclined to provide massive funding when the only improvement over the Peel days is a few seasonal flights to tacky Mediterranean bucket and spade destinations and few transit vans worth of freight (funded by the taxpayer) although there is always a prospect of more freight. OK we have a refurbished terminal and a price hike in the car park.
Some insist on trying to manipulate the passenger numbers but they remain well short of being sustainable and there appears no prospect of getting even close to the business plan any time soon, if ever.

I take issue with this and its typical of a style of play where people have to be firmly in one camp or another with the potential of reasonable middle ground not existing.

I'm not going to repeat all the arguments again, but the airport business plan is not just about bucket and spade flights, its about a suite of revenue. I haven't seen anyone trying to manipulate passenger numbers? All numbers I have seen are factually correct, black and white data. Your use of the word 'tacky' is unfair and subjective. The fact you may not want to go Benidorm on holiday doesn't make it tacky. Similarly, have you ever explored the mountains around the Costa Blanca or the beautiful fishing villages ot Majorca? The destinations on offer are indeed mainstream, but they offer many choices with things to suite most tastes. Tacky?

Also the report - most think it will be a whitewash. Who are most? Where has this generalisation come from? I see four outcomes, not the one sided black and white outcome you suggest.

1) Guilty
2) Innocent
3) Most likely - some things could have been done better/differently but no corruption and well intended.
4) Whitewash and full cover up

I'm not a huge fan of the mayor, but I would much rather be someone who tries and fails than a naysayer who just flings spanners in the works from the side. And as of now, the mayor hasn't even failed and is still trying!

It would be nice if some of the comment on here would be more balanced rather than cheap one-sided digs....

[SWBKCB]

I take issue with this and its typical of a style of play where people have to be firmly in one camp or another with the potential of reasonable middle ground not existing.

It would be nice if some of the comment on here would be more balanced rather than cheap one-sided digs...

Agree your comments but it needs to be recognised that some of the announcements from the official side lack a certain credibility.

[P330]

Agree your comments but it needs to be recognised that some of the announcements from the official side lack a certain credibility.

Completely agree. The issue is two sided and that is why I have issue with the mayor. He himself, as a politician, is not balanced and reasonable in his comment. That then attracts the opposite from others. Best thing we can do is recognise this and be reasonable in our comment and analysis.....far better than becoming part of the problem.

:)

[highwideandugly]

Input from all sources can be so misleading..

a three hour delay to the one and only early departure to Amsterdam(world wide connectivity anyone) due to equipment failure seems not very professional..as the mayor would like us to believe…

What irks is his Facebook gang at it yet again..saying the airport is in full swing dicing and keeping it open!

[pug]

Input from all sources can be so misleading..

a three hour delay to the one and only early departure to Amsterdam(world wide connectivity anyone) due to equipment failure seems not very professional..as the mayor would like us to believe…

What irks is his Facebook gang at it yet again..saying the airport is in full swing dicing and keeping it open!

Agreed, also I think when Grumpy mentions passenger statistics they may be referring to the insistence on using the growth seen this year as some kind of yardstick for success which is problematic. As things stand, growth in passenger numbers is set to stagnate next year if not see a marginal decline based on what is currently on sale. I was awaiting the promised news of new flights that is yet to be forthcoming.

It’s encouraging that the Mayor and team appear at face value to be trying to add diversification of aviation business with the aim of the airport reaching self sufficiency, so it will be interesting to see how much the losses are reduced by in the next couple of years. It does however still have a question mark over just how much demand there is from an airline perspective to actually want to serve the airport, but also those freight and MRO companies to use the facilities too. In my view it does a good job with KLM, leisure traffic is an added bonus but it’s costly to host until a critical mass is attained and it is this im skeptical of it achieving.

[Harold77]

The Northern Echo on Monday will be worth a look, a few bits going in the paper.

[Diff Tail Shim]

The Northern Echo on Monday will be worth a look, a few bits going in the paper.
That without Draken and Willis corporate about, Ben has wasted a fortune?

[SWBKCB]

I suspect a rather more positive spin on the position - "going gangbusters" was how the airport was described in the Lords

[Diff Tail Shim]

The Northern Echo on Monday will be worth a look, a few bits going in the paper.
That without Draken and Willis corporate about, Ben has wasted a fortune?

[N707ZS]

No comments on Fridays loses due to lack of investment in equipment. KLM and Draken went to Newcastle. And the latest Easyjet for Willis ended up at their base at Edinburgh. This from an airport planning morning freight schedules and just in time.

[highwideandugly]

Don’t know if anyone saw the “trailer” from the Echo on Friday? Rather embarrassing really and well worth a look.

Reporter stated he had spent a good hour with the mayor..who told him the full low down on how the airport development is blasting ahead..bet that was an interesting conversation 🤪

[oldart]

No comments on Fridays loses due to lack of investment in equipment. KLM and Draken went to Newcastle. And the latest Easyjet for Willis ended up at their base at Edinburgh. This from an airport planning morning freight schedules and just in time.
I thought they diverted because of freezing fog.

[N707ZS]

With better equipment you can land in freezing fog. Leeds and Newcastle have invested in ILS and lighting whilst Teesside still uses a fireman counting lights.
I also here the new Southside road is not finished as yet and probably not paid for.

[Grumpy1]

Ah, the Northern Echo, who invited a certain Mr B Houchen to open their new offices. We have got some powerful impartial investigative journalism to look forward to then. This will be a good opportunity for him to tell us about all of those new routes that in the summer he told us were “agreed and in the bank”.

[highwideandugly]

Old Dart..think it was also reference to de icing/snow clearance equipment failures ?

[Grumpy1]

"I also here the new Southside road is not finished as yet and probably not paid for".
Contractors have now left the site with works incomplete. As of yesterday, Landowners have still not been paid. Former site foreman suggested that new sheds will only be erected when there is commitment from tenants.

[P330]

Ah, the Northern Echo, who invited a certain Mr B Houchen to open their new offices. We have got some powerful impartial investigative journalism to look forward to then. This will be a good opportunity for him to tell us about all of those new routes that in the summer he told us were “agreed and in the bank”.

I am struggling to find a quote from the mayor saying “agreed and in the bank”. Would you mind sharing?

I remember comments about hoping to share news of routes in Sept/Oct but that’s all I can find…..

[Grumpy1]

“I am struggling to find a quote from the mayor saying “agreed and in the bank”. Would you mind sharing?”

Hospital radio interview posted 25 June, “we have already have new destinations in the bank” and “we have secured more flights but we are not allowed to talk about them until Sept or Oct”.

I saved the link in anticipation of the big announcement but now getting an error 404 message.

[P330]

“I am struggling to find a quote from the mayor saying “agreed and in the bank”. Would you mind sharing?”

Hospital radio interview posted 25 June, “we have already have new destinations in the bank” and “we have secured more flights but we are not allowed to talk about them until Sept or Oct”.

I saved the link in anticipation of the big announcement but now getting an error 404 message.

Brilliant. Well that is as definite as it gets. Let’s hope the Northern Echo test that. Thanks for sharing.

If I were a betting man, I’d guess that was the truth but the deal was with the devil (a reference someone made in the past to doing business with Ryanair) and Ryanair have changed their mind or delayed the announcement due to aircraft shortages or financial reasons.

That said,,,,maybe it could be announced on Monday….

[Cautious Optimist]

The article will no doubt by very positive and biased, although that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think there will be Peel bashing with cheap references to the closure myth and they will deliberately overlook the 2017 refurbishment to claim neglect of the terminal

[Grumpy1]

He has admitted in conversation that the Peel building houses on the runway story was invented to justify paying over the odds for the airport but then repeats the myth in posts to his followers and it seems that some still believe him.

[SWBKCB]

If I were a betting man, I’d guess that was the truth but the deal was with the devil (a reference someone made in the past to doing business with Ryanair) and Ryanair have changed their mind or delayed the announcement due to aircraft shortages or financial reasons.


I'd agree, it sounds plausible but suggests that MME isn't a gold mine for RYR.

[highwideandugly]

At least more definitive news,views and honest thoughts are shared on this thread!

I wish I could stop reading the Facebook pages of Ben and the airport..they are almost cult like in their blinkered views..however I can’t!

Nice to get back to the real world on here👍

2 more Easy Jets for storage today..parking must now be at a premium?

[N707ZS]

Presume parking will be discounted at mates rates.

[Grumpy1]

Willis funding repairs to disused runways and upgrading fencing so sounds like apron may be clear soon.

[Harold77]

He has admitted in conversation that the Peel building houses on the runway story was invented to justify paying over the odds for the airport but then repeats the myth in posts to his followers and it seems that some still believe him.

I like how you keep saying this when it is absolute utter tosh.

I have told you many many times that "Ingleby Barwick MkII" was a truth not a myth.
This was personally told to me by a Council Director who signs the cheques and deals for one of the Councils involved. He told me that "only Stockton & Darlington Councils would be the winners with all the new Council Tax income streams made by all the new houses. The Councils wanted to close the airport but could not be seen to do it themselves as it would be political suicide, hence the sale. The Councils wanted Ingleby Barwick MkII built." This was long before Houchen came on scene. So how can Houchen have made it up. Also TVCA didn't pay over the odds for the Airport. When the Councils sold shares for 500k in the deal the land value was 40m. Peel could have pushed for more as land values had risen since that deal, but agreed to settle for the value from when they first made the deal with the Councils years ago.

The question that needs to be asked is why did the six Labour Councils at the time sell an airport with land value of 40m for 500k to be split between six.

[pug]

I like how you keep saying this when it is absolute utter tosh.

I have told you many many times that "Ingleby Barwick MkII" was a truth not a myth.
This was personally told to me by a Council Director who signs the cheques and deals for one of the Councils involved. He told me that "only Stockton & Darlington Councils would be the winners with all the new Council Tax income streams made by all the new houses. The Councils wanted to close the airport but could not be seen to do it themselves as it would be political suicide, hence the sale. The Councils wanted Ingleby Barwick MkII built." This was long before Houchen came on scene. So how can Houchen have made it up. Also TVCA didn't pay over the odds for the Airport. When the Councils sold shares for 500k in the deal the land value was 40m. Peel could have pushed for more as land values had risen since that deal, but agreed to settle for the value from when they first made the deal with the Councils years ago.

The question that needs to be asked is why did the six Labour Councils at the time sell an airport with land value of 40m for 500k to be split between six.

Probably because rather than wanting to close the airport, they knew they were not in a position to take it to the next level?

Dont forget that at the time small airports across the country were growing exponentially on the back of low cost airlines, and Peel had successfully facilitated growth at Liverpool which was an undeniable success story and were also planning to replicate that success at Finningley. Alas, Peel attempted the stack em high sell em cheap ethos at MME and DSA and it didn’t work. So it probably was at the time a case of sell it off to someone who can turn it around, or let it carry on with limited resources or expertise to drive it forward.

In areas of economic malaise airports are a beacon of hope, so long as the proles can get to Benidorm for a few quid they’re happy, and by virtue of that they are a political vote winner! BH and his counterparts in SY are therefore jumping into this with both feet under the guise of economic regeneration…

[SWBKCB]

Here we go again - "He said, she said". Lets try and stick to what's in the public domain

The question that needs to be asked is why did the six Labour Councils at the time sell an airport with land value of 40m for 500k to be split between six.

Dont forget that at the time small airports across the country were growing exponentially on the back of low cost airlines, and Peel had successfully facilitated growth at Liverpool which was an undeniable success story and were also planning to replicate that success at Finningley. Alas, Peel attempted the stack em high sell em cheap ethos at MME and DSA and it didn’t work. So it probably was at the time a case of sell it off to someone who can turn it around, or let it carry on with limited resources or expertise to drive it forward.

Pug is right - this was the rationale published at the time. After Sheffield City and DSA it's easy to write off Peel as property developers who close airports but thats to ignore their initial success at Teesside before that was derailed by world events (sound familiar?) and how the airport and the area around it has been transformed at LPL - Teesside would give their right arm for half that.

He has admitted in conversation that the Peel building houses on the runway story was invented to justify paying over the odds for the airport but then repeats the myth in posts to his followers and it seems that some still believe him.

I have told you many many times that "Ingleby Barwick MkII" was a truth not a myth. This was personally told to me by a Council Director who signs the cheques and deals for one of the Councils involved.

The only evidence for housing at MME is the Peel plan to build houses near the terminal on part of the car park and the area where Willis have proposed their Airport Village - none of this was airside or would have directly affected airfield operations. The public intention was that the profits from this would be used to fund the so far mythical profit making, job creating southside business park. Don't forget that the airfield site as a whole is a complex, dirty, polluted brownfield site, something that the Teesside area doesn't seem to be short of.

In areas of economic malaise airports are a beacon of hope, so long as the proles can get to Benidorm for a few quid they’re happy, and by virtue of that they are a political vote winner! BH and his counterparts in SY are therefore jumping into this with both feet under the guise of economic regeneration…

Possibly a bit harsh but all talk of "Global Connectivity" has been dropped - the comments you read are around how you easy it is go on holiday to Spain not about how my customers/investors are flying in from New York, London, Paris, Munich

[Grumpy1]

"The only evidence for housing at MME is the Peel plan to build houses near the terminal on part of the car park and the area where Willis have proposed their Airport Village - none of this was airside or would have directly affected airfield operations".

Spot on. It was part of the Peel development plan that was approved by the Authority to build a number of houses (my recollection is about 100?) along with a South Side business park (adapted by their successors) to fund the development. Closing the airport to build houses was never mentioned appart from by a certain political but only after the purchase and ofcourse a member of this group who seems to get private secret briefings from senior officers that contradict the publicly minuted adgendour.

[highwideandugly]

So.do the local authorities gain any revenue at all now from the airport?

Maybe the airport in the guise above..limited services..but a functional airport..coupled with regular stream of income from that limited housing development..might, just might have provided a reliable source of income to the councils?

Oh well..off to Alicante we go !

[N707ZS]

On the subject of Alicante, it congratulations to the staff for clearing the snow and the flight being on time.

[onion]

"The only evidence for housing at MME is the Peel plan to build houses near the terminal on part of the car park and the area where Willis have proposed their Airport Village - none of this was airside or would have directly affected airfield operations".

Spot on. It was part of the Peel development plan that was approved by the Authority to build a number of houses (my recollection is about 100?) along with a South Side business park (adapted by their successors) to fund the development. Closing the airport to build houses was never mentioned appart from by a certain political but only after the purchase and ofcourse a member of this group who seems to get private secret briefings from senior officers that contradict the publicly minuted adgendour.

It was 350 houses houses and Peel did mention they would close the airport - if that was houses or business park is a different ball game.
Those that worked or had any involvment at MME under Peel know how they looked to run the place and how they treated staff. Alongside their clear statements on closure any 'man on the Clapham omnibus' could see their plan.

[Harold77]

"The only evidence for housing at MME is the Peel plan to build houses near the terminal on part of the car park and the area where Willis have proposed their Airport Village - none of this was airside or would have directly affected airfield operations".

Spot on. It was part of the Peel development plan that was approved by the Authority to build a number of houses (my recollection is about 100?) along with a South Side business park (adapted by their successors) to fund the development. Closing the airport to build houses was never mentioned appart from by a certain political but only after the purchase and ofcourse a member of this group who seems to get private secret briefings from senior officers that contradict the publicly minuted adgendour.


It was well known years before Houchen came on scene. But you don't like to hear that because it knocks your agenda.
At least one thing when I talk I don't go beetroot red sucked in rage smirking and chuckling while stood in front of me saying "thats utterly totally wrong. you haven't got a clue what your talking about. Houchen has admitted it was a lie and he made it up."

When I asked when did he say this you say it was said in front of staff. I was told about it, I wasn't there.

Everything you say is formed from what someone else's opinion is. Never your own opinion from your own research which you admit.

What I say about Ingleby Barwick MkII being built came directly from one of the Council Directors involved at the time which I was told about 5-7 years before Houchen came on scene.
How come the Labour Councils tried soo in vain not to release any details even when demanded in Court. But one Council did spill some details in Court. Hence how we at least know it was sold for 500k, which was certainly in the public domain at the time.
So it is crystal clear that Houchen certainly never made it up.

[No-More-Bullschit]

The village idiot has spoken. That's us told.

[highwideandugly]

Well..we will all know what’s what tomorrow after the Northern Echo gospel is revealed!

[Convair 440]

Time to look at the present and future of Teesside forget what was or wasn't said or what happened or didn't happen in the past
time to move on arguing and discussing the past isn't going to change anything the future development and improvement are the only things that matter

[SWBKCB]

Was just thinking the same - and none of us were in the room at the time.

[Harold77]

I do look forward to the future and can see a balanced view. But when certain someone says "its a failed airport always has and always will be it will never change. Wasting public money on a failed airport is ludicrous and out of order."

You have got to call that out and emphasise the improvements that has been seen. As the negative attitude doesn't help and business people hearing/ seeing them sort of comments can scare investment away. In my town I have business investors join local social media groups (it is well known in business) to get a feel for the area and its residents to help in determining a case of where to locate their next investments. Some have been put off by the way negative talk portrayed on the social media groups, some have come round after talking to others and made investments.

Things are getting better but he doesn't want to see that even when presented with facts he dismisses them and always talking the airport down.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Harold, makes my sick to say it but your first paragraph is right on the money. After that mind you go back to the drivel you are known for. If I was looking for investors and they got cold feet because of things they read on social media, I wouldn't want their business and would seek a higher standard of investor

[Harold77]

2022-23 Financials

Over £15m in Revenues. Highest recorded in airports history.
Loss £2.26m

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-ahead-plan-encouraging-28215160

[P330]

Better looking results. Ahead of plan too…

Here is the Northern Echo piece.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23956908.teesside-airport-timeline-happened-5-years/

No new information here.

[P330]

Malaga is ‘when not if’ and Tenerife up there too. Long haul also gets a mention.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23964902.teesside-international-airport-soon-malaga-flight/

[N707ZS]

I cannot remember Costa Rica. We definitely had Dominican Republic. So nothing new then.

[highwideandugly]

Facebook in overdrive!

Great results though and just shows what can be achieved if you throw everything available at a project !

Only doubt in my mind..is how so much profit has been made on a monthly basis during the last year?
We are always generally told that real airport revenue comes from ..passengers,duty free,outlets car parks etc?.

so is the spa that vibrant?🤔😀

[globetrotter79]

Malaga is ‘when not if’ and Tenerife up there too. Long haul also gets a mention.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23964902.teesside-international-airport-soon-malaga-flight/

Am enjoying the repeat of Houchen's oft-aired phrase "foreign investors don't arrive by bus"..
...the thing is they don't tend to arrive from the Spanish Costas by Ryanair either, do they?!

[SWBKCB]

Am enjoying the repeat of Houchen's oft-aired phrase "foreign investors don't arrive by bus"..
...the thing is they don't tend to arrive from the Spanish Costas by Ryanair either, do they?!

Yes - nice to see the return of an old friend!

Bet KLM have cut out the article for use in the next contract negotiations.

[N707ZS]

Presume thats the excitement over for this year. Don't forget next year is election year. Perhaps they are keeping the new routes until then.

[onion]

Am I missing something here?
They announce (and I know its not on Companies House yet) a smaller than projected loss, remember the 10 year turn around expected losses, and as usual people are slamming the place!
Come on what actually gives here? This is good news, it shows they are ahead of where they want to be, admittedly probably slightly down pax wise but defintley ahead of the game profit/loss wise which points to other areas taking the slack.
So why the negativity? Or is it some people have vendettas against the airport, Houchen or both?
If you can't give credit where it is due you shouldn't be throwing stones!

[Gsm1]

Same old story, Same people with nothing positive to say. Things are moving in the right direction. ⬆️

[jorvik]

Think is boils down to the fact that it’s blatant “Quick Look over here” style posts and media output which most people see through. Most who criticise the airport on this forum have been around long enough to see through it, but it captures some folk in the headlights and they lap it up. It’s clear it’s a political football, and the sad side of it all is that the foundations are built on sand. It’s not hard to see the airport isn’t going to go anywhere fast, the lack of routes, and contraction of some, BOJ for example is testament to that. All harps back to the mayor’s favourite man, BoJo, he was the king of the “dead cat”, Quick Look at this, don’t focus on that.

[SWBKCB]

I don't see anybody slamming the place, a bit of fun being poked at the motor mouth mayor who in one breadth says that the investors don't arrive on a bus and then says the route he really wants in Malaga

For the record, I've said on a number of occasions that the strategic direction is correct, diversify the business with non passenger activities such as Draken, Willis and the Business Park and the non-aviation businesses in the terminal, but goodness me this "I've saved the world single handed" shtick gets a bit tiresome - bordering on dishonest - and there have been expensive tactical mistakes along the way.

[Grumpy1]

Anybody understand how the EBITDA reduction actually impacts on the actual trading losses. A curious way of reporting trading results as it has been suggested that accounts have been released but they are not at Companies House so where can we find them please?

[onion]

Anybody understand how the EBITDA reduction actually impacts on the actual trading losses. A curious way of reporting trading results as it has been suggested that accounts have been released but they are not at Companies House so where can we find them please?

It can lower the shown losses.
Depreciation may not be accounted for for instance, so in simple terms your asset look more valuable than it is!

It is however a legitimate yardstick that companies use.
The full accounts won't be public until they are put onto companies house.

[highwideandugly]

I still wonder how £15 million in revenues were achieved on the limited passenger/cargo/terminal throughput ?

On another thread someone thinks it’s creative accounting? Advance rents,contracts,promises etc?

[onion]

I still wonder how £15 million in revenues were achieved on the limited passenger/cargo/terminal throughput ?

On another thread someone thinks it’s creative accounting? Advance rents,contracts,promises etc?
I'm sure advanced rent contracts and promises can't be shown until the year they are paid.
Sure one of the supermarkets fell foul of that a few years back where they included future payments to them in a set of accounts.

[tigertanaka]

I still wonder how £15 million in revenues were achieved on the limited passenger/cargo/terminal throughput ?

On another thread someone thinks it’s creative accounting? Advance rents,contracts,promises etc?

Look at pre-covid - £7.6m revenues on 138k pax - so £55 per passenger
Last year had 193k pax - £15m is about £78 a head - an increase of 43% in 3 years, this feels like a big increase but not a ridiculous amount.

Of course not all the revenue is related to passengers but it is one of the key drivers. One would also imagine that Draken would be paying more than in the past and that fuel sales (which were £1.8m 5 years ago) would have been heavily helped by inflation.

Doubt we would get more info in the published accounts but there are strict rules about what companies are allowed to declare as turnover and there is added scrutiny as the airport has a public body as it's majority shareholder.

[Harold77]

I still wonder how £15 million in revenues were achieved on the limited passenger/cargo/terminal throughput ?

This is where the need to look over the previous years results.

Year / Revenues / Passengers / Movements
2019-20: £7,745,305 / 139,448 / 16,389
2020-21: £4,812,505 / 14,521 / 11,118
2021-22: £7.686,643 / 83,921 / 20,130
2022-23 £15m plus / 192,283 / 21,360

Take a look at the drop during the first covid year and the second when things were slowly opening up. The second year Revenue is near enough the same as pre covid year, but reduced numbers and nearly 4k extra movements than pre covid.
This is quite telling on how the business has increased in other areas.
So new Draken Hangar rents with extra aircraft, aircraft storage/ parking, aircraft handling, movements, more larger aircraft being handled, cargo, fuel sales increase. Then the increase in terminal facilities so more spending by passengers in the bars/ restaurants, unit rentals, car parking, office block built and occupied by TVCA, other rentals/ ground rents from other users.


Serco International Fire Training Centre
Willis Asset Management
Willis Jet Centre
Draken Europe
AeroSchool
Eden Flight Training
FedEx Express
IAS Medical
Thales Flight Inspection
Ramsdens
Linthorpe at the Airport Pharmacy/ Shop
Fairs Lloyds Travel
Bannantyne Spa
World Duty Free
House of Zana & Rejoy
The Landside Cafe
The Transporter
The Goosepool
Tees Valley Combined Authority Offices
Thai Terminal
1 Goosepool Hotel
Caravan/ Motorhome storage

Plus couple others I can't think off top of my head.


So when you add them all up then you can see where the Revenues have been come from especially with upturn in passenger numbers adding to the figures.

So definitely don't think advance payments could be attributed to the increase.

[pug]

Look at pre-covid - £7.6m revenues on 138k pax - so £55 per passenger
Last year had 193k pax - £15m is about £78 a head - an increase of 43% in 3 years, this feels like a big increase but not a ridiculous amount.

Of course not all the revenue is related to passengers but it is one of the key drivers. One would also imagine that Draken would be paying more than in the past and that fuel sales (which were £1.8m 5 years ago) would have been heavily helped by inflation.

Doubt we would get more info in the published accounts but there are strict rules about what companies are allowed to declare as turnover and there is added scrutiny as the airport has a public body as it's majority shareholder.

Is there though? I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of what they are obliged to declare, but it does seem a bit dodgy that when Esken left their shares in the airport were handed to a ‘charitable trust’ that neither provides grants or accepts donations… Does this make the whole thing less susceptible to detailed scrutiny?

[N707ZS]

There's more. Just found this extra portion.
What's in store for the future of Teesside International Airport? | The Northern Echo (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/23961344.store-future-teesside-international-airport/)

[onion]

Is there though? I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of what they are obliged to declare, but it does seem a bit dodgy that when Esken left their shares in the airport were handed to a ‘charitable trust’ that neither provides grants or accepts donations… Does this make the whole thing less susceptible to detailed scrutiny?

If anything that means there is another body scrutinising the airport through the charities commission.
Don't know the reasons as to why they don't give or accept grants but charities can work in many different ways.

[N707ZS]

Is there any evidence of the trust doing anything other than attending meetings.

[pug]

Is there any evidence of the trust doing anything other than attending meetings.

Dont know. Perhaps it’s been established with truly benevolent intent, but why have it attached to an airport as they are notoriously lacking in substantial profit through which to support other charitable ventures? Why did they see fit to gift it 25% of the shares in the airport when the only truly private sector share owner withdrew (and apparently took with it £millions)? Is it because a charitable trust is, like a private sector company, not bound to the same level of scrutiny as its public sector counterpart?

[SWBKCB]

Dont know. Perhaps it’s been established with truly benevolent intent, but why have it attached to an airport as they are notoriously lacking in substantial profit through which to support other charitable ventures? Why did they see fit to gift it 25% of the shares in the airport when the only truly private sector share owner withdrew (and apparently took with it £millions)? Is it because a charitable trust is, like a private sector company, not bound to the same level of scrutiny as its public sector counterpart?

This article gives some background on the Trust

https://www.teesvalleymonitor.com/the-phoenix-returns-to-the-ashes-part-3-teesside-airport-foundation

[Grumpy1]

The charitable trust element of the ownership has been quoted as the reason to refuse FoA applications from investigative journalists examining the goings on at what most assume to be a publicly owned body so subject to scrutiny.

[Beafer]

The charitable trust element of the ownership has been quoted as the reason to refuse FoA applications from investigative journalists examining the goings on at what most assume to be a publicly owned body so subject to scrutiny.

Charitable trusts allow the trusts to avoid business rates, and other expenses.

Local Company Example - A company who changed their name to TTI Realisations 2019 Ltd went bust after changing their name from TTE Technical Institute ltd, to a few other names over a period of time.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02360140

The accounts showed a £11 million black hole in their pension fund! Warnings had been given years before over the fund having millions not paid into it, but no one was prosecuted.

The administrators spreadsheet of the TTI Realisations 2019 Ltd company make interesting reading! They trained apprentices. HMRC were paid £500k to avoid more action.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02360140/filing-history

TTE has since been set up again working with a local college. Dont think all the same directors are involved, but it may be another charitable trust.

Charities Commission don't have enough powers, or staff to check on charitable trusts.

[tigertanaka]

If your pension deficit is equal to your turnover (and it was ultimately double that in this case), you have an almost unsurmountable problem - especially if you are a charity and cannot go cap in hand to shareholders for some cash. However even with charitable status, pension fund trustees would still be expected to report on the scheme financing to the Pensions Ombudsman although I am not sure what you would expect either party to do when the gap is that large.

Charitable status may mean that less information is available but it does not remove the requirement to report to external bodies (eg Pensions Ombudsman, Companies House). In your example, the pension deficit was shown in the accounts so lack of disclosure was hardly the issue in that case. Maybe the issue is more that journalists do not know how to interpret the information that is publicly available?

[onion]

Also we are unsure of any action post 2022 that the Insolvency Service, HMRC or the Charities commission are taking.
If they are in the process of Civil Recovery then we won't find out, if its criminal we could find out.
Things move slowly in the land of both Civil and Criminal recovery and it could be another year before an answer is reached!
Limited liability does not applying in all circumstances like alot of Directors like to think.
HMRC and the Insolvency Service are actually supporting each other on a more regular basis to bring company directors to account when serious mis practise and evasion are present.

[Beafer]

If your pension deficit is equal to your turnover (and it was ultimately double that in this case), you have an almost unsurmountable problem - especially if you are a charity and cannot go cap in hand to shareholders for some cash. However even with charitable status, pension fund trustees would still be expected to report on the scheme financing to the Pensions Ombudsman although I am not sure what you would expect either party to do when the gap is that large.

Charitable status may mean that less information is available but it does not remove the requirement to report to external bodies (eg Pensions Ombudsman, Companies House). In your example, the pension deficit was shown in the accounts so lack of disclosure was hardly the issue in that case. Maybe the issue is more that journalists do not know how to interpret the information that is publicly available?

In the accounts, there was a mention of the millions already missing in the protected pension fund a few years earlier, and that the directors said they would increase the payments.
End result the missing millions doubled, and the company name changed more than once.

[N707ZS]

On a good note I see from the movements post and from Grumpy that a fence is being constructed around the old 01 runway, so the do listen to what we say.... Wonder who's paying for it.
When Willis first arrived I was shown a drawing of a wide body hangar in this location which so far hasn't appeared.

[Beafer]

Also we are unsure of any action post 2022 that the Insolvency Service, HMRC or the Charities commission are taking.
If they are in the process of Civil Recovery then we won't find out, if its criminal we could find out.
Things move slowly in the land of both Civil and Criminal recovery and it could be another year before an answer is reached!
Limited liability does not applying in all circumstances like alot of Directors like to think.
HMRC and the Insolvency Service are actually supporting each other on a more regular basis to bring company directors to account when serious mis practise and evasion are present.

Looking at the administraton details filed on companies house website, they didnt recover any of the £11 million missing protected pension fund, even though it was supposed to be PROTECTED.
Police did not act on it. Maybe not up to speed on missing pension money? :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

What's the link here to the airport? The Trust has no active role in the operation of the airport - staffing, assetts, etc

[onion]

Looking at the administraton details filed on companies house website, they didnt recover any of the £11 million missing protected pension fund, even though it was supposed to be PROTECTED.
Police did not act on it. Maybe not up to speed on missing pension money? :ugh:

The administrators have nothing to do with the recovery of money from the directors, apart from possibly the directors loan account.
Although there was some money left in the business which would have gone to those preferential creditors first, such as the Pension fund so some was technically recovered.
HMRC and the Insolvency Service may currently have cases open on the malpractice of the directors in the past. As i mentioned if there is a civil recovery by these groups you won't hear about it apart from maybe director disqualification, if there is a criminal recovery then it will be published but that may take some time too.
The physical action of knowingly trading Insolvency is against the law.

[tigertanaka]

Looking at the administraton details filed on companies house website, they didnt recover any of the £11 million missing protected pension fund, even though it was supposed to be PROTECTED.
Police did not act on it. Maybe not up to speed on missing pension money? :ugh:
Beefer, I think it is you that needs to get up to speed here. Assets of a defined benefit pension scheme are protected to stop companies dipping into them, if you have evidence otherwise I would suggest you go to the police as strict rules were put in place following the issues with Robert Maxwell and the Mirror Group pension scheme.

The £11.6m that the Pension Protection Fund were claiming would be their valuation to pay out the benefits to the current & former employees after taking control of the scheme assets. This valuation is not the same as the one that is published in the annual accounts (which implied a £4.1m deficit at the end of 2017). The assets in the business added up to nothing like £11.6m so for that reason an administrator decided to liquidate the business and get what cash they could.

Now can we get back to discussing the airport?

[skyman771]

Been following this thread for too long, so much smoke & mirrors, conspiracy theories, potential villain's, yet it continues to throw up comment.
I'm unsure as to how many if any of the regular posters, have any direct involvement with the airport & if not then what their agendas are....
At present then this years published accounts seem to be a popular topic, yet for the most part, then the comments arising from data abstracted from the published accounts suggest that there are a few armchair accountants around, with those that possess a level of understanding simply adding "fuel to the fire" for those that appear to be using this thread with a political agenda.
Case in point then whilst there has been an explanation of "EBITDA " then attention is focused on the reduction of the loss being a reflection of the improvement in the airports performance. However this is not the "final" figure for any number of reasons & whilst some figures may be somewhat subjective i.e. depreciation / amortisation, then Interest charges on borrowings certainly are not. Given the uplift in borrowing charges, then I would very much doubt that there is anything "positive" at all in the bottom line.
On the other side then the significant increase in revenue appears very encouraging, though I fail to see that it should attract much debate until a breakdown is available between the various activities, be it pax operations or whatever. It's only when this level of detail is available is one able to make any constructive comment as to how the 10 year plan is progressing.
For my part I find it quite remarkable that the airport has to date managed to "weather the storm" , though I feel that the significant efforts made in developing the non passenger related activities should not be under estimated & that this is perhaps the only way ahead for the foreseeable future.

[Harold77]

Interest on the loan facility is 5.09% in the last few Accounts since purchase and not changed in the years. So will have to see when Accounts are published on Companies House if that has changed for this last year.

[Beafer]

Interest on the loan facility is 5.09% in the last few Accounts since purchase and not changed in the years. So will have to see when Accounts are published on Companies House if that has changed for this last year.

Thanks to posters for answers, I used the company mentioned due to the previous post about charitable trusts.
I hope the airport does survive either with the charity or not. Peel were trying to close it, but it managed to survive. Onwards and upwards. I hope more is spent on equipment for the winter season. :ok:

[Harold77]

Thanks to posters for answers, I used the company mentioned due to the previous post about charitable trusts.
I hope the airport does survive either with the charity or not. Peel were trying to close it, but it managed to survive. Onwards and upwards. I hope more is spent on equipment for the winter season. :ok:

The posts above about that charity trust has nothing to do with the airport, so don't know why it was discussed as no relevance to the airport. Just some using it to trying to say it is a way to hide stuff when its not.

A lot of companies have charitable trusts attached to them. It is a way that they can give money away to local/ national causes.
McDonalds has Ronald McDonald House Charity.
Tesco has Tesco Stronger Starts.
Asda has the Asda Foundation.
Morrisons has the Morrisons Foundation.
Manchester Airport has Manchester Airport Community Trust Fund.

So Teesside Airport is no different having Teesside Airport Foundation.

[SWBKCB]

How much has the Trust collected or given away?

Only MAG from your list has any element of public ownership. Only Teesside is whole publically owned apart from the charity element.

[P330]

Looks like movement on the App.

Whilst nothing yet for sale, you can select dates on Wednesday and Sunday and see the greyed out times over the summer. Feels like it should be on sale soon.

[highwideandugly]

Faro..thank goodness…we can all go and hibernate for the winter now!

[N707ZS]

How much has the Trust collected or given away?

Only MAG from your list has any element of public ownership. Only Teesside is whole publically owned apart from the charity element.
We have been told the Southside has been gifted to developers, so not the whole site anymore.

[onion]

We have been told the Southside has been gifted to developers, so not the whole site anymore.
:zzz: So how can they move the fence line?
No one has actually provided clear evidence yet of what you claim!

[N707ZS]

No clear evidence, its the same as who owns the Steelworks site at Redcar. You can see on the developers plans this is the designated aviation area. Would any developer say no to Willis wanting to use the land to park some planes, land thats making them nothing. And Willis being the Alpha company at the airport.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x454/img_20231205_wa0000_6af7e2e3f661e5f62c29f8f5f17831ab470c0de5 .jpg

[Harold77]

It is a 50/50 joint venture the Southside between the airport and the development company.
Airport remains owners of the land and it is in a form of lease to the joint venture the development area.
That is how I understood the documentation.

[onion]

No clear evidence, its the same as who owns the Steelworks site at Redcar. You can see on the developers plans this is the designated aviation area. Would any developer say no to Willis wanting to use the land to park some planes, land thats making them nothing. And Willis being the Alpha company at the airport.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x454/img_20231205_wa0000_6af7e2e3f661e5f62c29f8f5f17831ab470c0de5 .jpg

Yes evidence, what you ve done here is to provide a picture and your thoughts on the matter.
Harold has provided a more realistic breakdown of the situation, but its still not evidence. We've been over it serveral times and no one has provided that evidence of the claim the land was gifted.

[Grumpy1]

"We've been over it serveral times and no one has provided that evidence of the claim the land was gifted".

Should we even be having this conversation? Somehow a publicly owned asset ended up being partly owned by private individuals or a private company that just happen to well known to the mayor but we still dont know why the deal was done or why it appears to have done in secret or even how much, if anything, was paid, or do we? Surely, this should all be in the public domain and is it not reasonable to expect the mayors office to address questions from the press and others?

[SWBKCB]

Bringing us back to the earlier subject, these sorts of questions have been asked by the TVCA audit and scrutiny committee, but because of the ownership structure of Teesside Airport (i.e. the involvement of private entities Stobart/Esken and now the Trust), these are commercially confidential matters.

[SWBKCB]

Looks like movement on the App.

Whilst nothing yet for sale, you can select dates on Wednesday and Sunday and see the greyed out times over the summer. Feels like it should be on sale soon.

Now on sale

[Grumpy1]

“These are commercially confidential matters”

But nobody should be surprised when eyebrows are raised if this the explanation offered as to why the public cannot learn about the deal that results in the mayors mates gaining public assets. As it is all above board would it not be better to explain?

[Grumpy1]

Ryanair have anounced 21 new routes but sadly nothing for us. Kind of undermines the lack of aircraft excuse however.

[N707ZS]

"We've been over it serveral times and no one has provided that evidence of the claim the land was gifted".

Should we even be having this conversation? Somehow a publicly owned asset ended up being partly owned by private individuals or a private company that just happen to well known to the mayor but we still dont know why the deal was done or why it appears to have done in secret or even how much, if anything, was paid, or do we? Surely, this should all be in the public domain and is it not reasonable to expect the mayors office to address questions from the press and others?
The elephant in the room is who gets what. We have been told that the Southside development was necessary to fund the passenger side. With more fingers in the pot does the airport get less?

[pug]

Bringing us back to the earlier subject, these sorts of questions have been asked by the TVCA audit and scrutiny committee, but because of the ownership structure of Teesside Airport (i.e. the involvement of private entities Stobart/Esken and now the Trust), these are commercially confidential matters.

Exactly and any question as to the reason behind making such a decision to structure ownership that way gets shot down for being politically motivated. This is not the case from my standpoint, no suggestion from my point of view that anything illegal or underhand is happening, just an observation that it might be construed as dodgy.

Good to see FAO loaded at last!

[SWBKCB]

Don't forget it is our money being spent.

[N707ZS]

All that blurb last week and they forgot to say anything about the new bus service between Stockton and Darlington stopping at the airport.


6 - Stockton-on-Tees High Street North - Ingleby Barwick, Yarm, Eaglescliffe, Teesside Airport, Middleton St George - Darlington Town Hall - Hurworth - Darlington Town Hall or Tubwell Row







[highwideandugly]

According to another site..the access road to the south side development is now closed and blocked off..guy not sure why and for how long..any ideas anyone?

[Grumpy1]

The south side appears to have been mothballed with the contractors leaving the site with site buildings and compounds removed. One large building has been completed but there appears no evidence of it being fitted out and as far as can be seen no work has started on the further buildings.
A temporary fence with a gate and cctv cameras have been erected just beyond the access to the farms but the gate can be opened for the new access to the fire school.
There are no longer workmen around to quiz about what is or isn’t happening although we have previously been informed that if and when new tenants sign up then further buildings will be constructed although so far the mayor has not announced any tenants.

[Harold77]

October figures

Terminal Passengers 21,949
Aircraft Movements 1,686

Terminal Passengers breaking through the 200k barrier which was last seen in 2010.

[SWBKCB]

October figures

Terminal Passengers 21,949
Aircraft Movements 1,686

Terminal Passengers breaking through the 200k barrier which was last seen in 2010.

And with credit to Teesside Movements, aircraft movements down for the fourth month in a row.

[highwideandugly]

Think these figures are pretty average really?

Movements..mentioned.

Passengers figure obviously up…however, not a great increase considering investment and more to the point, next years looks pretty stagnant considering all the bluster?

[N707ZS]

Weather has been poor for flying and the pheasant shooting season season is on about zero aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

Weather has been poor for flying and the pheasant shooting season season is on about zero aircraft.

Quite right, but when the movements were going up, they got mentioned every month. Same with the cargo stats.

I'm all for a bit of balance. :ok:

[highwideandugly]

Forgot about the cargo figures …and investment in that !

To be fair..a lot of this is bluster from the mayor(and a couple of his fans). The airport has made amazing progress compared to what it was…

But please a little balance(as stated) would be better appreciated and understandable!

[Cautious Optimist]

I agree completely r.e. balance but the hunting season has been one of the best in years, every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday for the best part of two months was rammed

[N707ZS]

Grouse shooting was good yes but November December Pheasant shooting hasn't seen much only one regular DA 900 and no sign of Mr Miller.

[Harold77]

And with credit to Teesside Movements, aircraft movements down for the fourth month in a row.

I got the figures from CAA page.

[Harold77]

This is a good one.
On the Domestic Route Analysis page 12_3 To & From each reporting airport.
Under Teesside it says 41 passengers for Exeter.
Whilst under Exeter it says 85 passengers for Teesside.

Something a miss there, or did 44 do a parachute jump before the plane landed at Teesside.

[P330]

Some good numbers there.

A couple of points; pretty obvious we’re hurting on Aberdeen. Really could do with another rotation or two there.

Ryanair/Palma has had lower passengers than 2022 for 3 of the last 4 months. That’s not a Ryanair trend we want to see.

[Convair 440]

The Willis Aviation Village is now shown as unknown on the Darlington Council planning decision page
does anyone know what this means

[flybar]

Some good numbers there.

A couple of points; pretty obvious we’re hurting on Aberdeen. Really could do with another rotation or two there.

Ryanair/Palma has had lower passengers than 2022 for 3 of the last 4 months. That’s not a Ryanair trend we want to see.
Ryanair seem to have announced additional destinations for 2024 from most airports except Teesside.

[Grumpy1]

"The Willis Aviation Village is now shown as unknown on the Darlington Council planning decision page
does anyone know what this means"

Despite the mayor making a big anouncement suggesting that planning permission had been granted this apears to have been another of his inventions, probably similar to those at the Freeport. They had until September to comply with numerous planning conditions but made no further submissions. The Willis boys will tell you in confidence that there was never going to be 5 hangers and 250 jobs. Interesting that he has not had the courtesy of responding to several enquiries on his Facebook page.
Similar to deals that the mayor reported had been agreed for the new routes next year perhaps?

[SWBKCB]

Some good numbers there.

A couple of points; pretty obvious we’re hurting on Aberdeen. Really could do with another rotation or two there.

Ryanair/Palma has had lower passengers than 2022 for 3 of the last 4 months. That’s not a Ryanair trend we want to see.

Ryanair seem to have announced additional destinations for 2024 from most airports except Teesside.

If you look at the Movements website, with the exception of ALC, RYR load factors rarely get above 90%. Across the system, RYR average about 95%

[GAXLN]

If you look at the Movements website, with the exception of ALC, RYR load factors rarely get above 90%. Across the system, RYR average about 95%

I believe their reported seat factor includes those booked who noshow. So 90% may be comparable but, as always, it is yield per seat that really matters and that we don’t know.

[highwideandugly]

Teesside Airport Movements have just listed the provisional Summer 2024 timetable for perusal!

[teej013]

Re the Aviation Village, there is a "Notice of Grant" dated 12 Dec 2023 on the Darlington Planning site:

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RKF1Q4FPJB600

Teej...

[N707ZS]

Thats a bit of good news to finish the year. Planning permissions look complicated and a few restrictions of use.

[Grumpy1]

“Thats a bit of good news to finish the year”
It just looks like a repeat of the same provisional approval that was granted in the summer and is subject to numerous conditions that have not been complied with.
I think we can be sure that if Willis change their corporate mind and decide to proceed with the village or even a small proportion of it then it will all over a certain politicians Facebook page.

[SWBKCB]

“Thats a bit of good news to finish the year”
It just looks like a repeat of the same provisional approval that was granted in the summer and is subject to numerous conditions that have not been complied with.
I think we can be sure that if Willis change their corporate mind and decide to proceed with the village or even a small proportion of it then it will all over a certain politicians Facebook page.

The conditions all look familiar to me, and they have plenty of time to complete the various actions (and many can't be complied with now)

[highwideandugly]

Certain persons facebook page is too busy exalting the success of the freight village and figures..sad that people actually believe all this bluster!🤪

[N707ZS]

Certain persons facebook page is too busy exalting the success of the freight village and figures..sad that people actually believe all this bluster!🤪
The freight village has just been Nissan freight so far, nothing new. Would be interesting to know if the scanner has actually been used in the new sorry old hangar.

[SWBKCB]

Success of the freight "village"? They need to look at the stats :confused:

[highwideandugly]

It’s a common theme..always full of the ‘good’ news..but always non existent in reporting the ‘not so good “ news.

The airport has made amazing progress over the last 18 months..no doubt.
The hard part will be continuing that progress.

[N707ZS]

Bad new for KLM passengers travelling home for Christmas today. I see KL1530/7,8,9 are cancelled today and presume no flight on Friday morning. Info from the movements site. Quoted shortage of aircraft not even a German Airways or Transavia must be available.

[SWBKCB]

Winds of 30kts gusting 43 forecast this morning might be having an impact on airport capacity at AMS

[GrahamK]

Indeed, not just MME affected, both afternoon flights up the road cancelled too

[s_insania]

It’s a common theme..always full of the ‘good’ news..but always non existent in reporting the ‘not so good “ news.

The airport has made amazing progress over the last 18 months..no doubt.
The hard part will be continuing that progress.

Not sure in any walk of life you would wallow in bad news or shout it from the roof tops? Why would Ben be any different?

[Grumpy1]

“Not sure in any walk of life you would wallow in bad news or shout it from the roof tops? Why would Ben be any different?”

Because he is an elected public servant who should not exaggerate any good news and has a duty to accurately report any not so good news. In other words, the electorate and any potential investors should be able to trust him.

[Harold77]

Full Section 106 Agreement.
Public Transport Contribution of £750k
Sustainable Transport Contribution of £200 x number of car parking spaces of development.
Travel Plan Advice Fee of £100 per Full Time Employee.
Travel Plan Implementation Bond of £50 per Full Time Employee.
Monitoring Fee £2,850

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/4A7795B01EEB5B1403E00E54BC72E9DB/pdf/22_01182_FUL-S106_AGREEMENT_DATED_11_DECEMBER_2023-2032318.pdf

[SWBKCB]

Link comes upDocument Unavailable

[N707ZS]

Full Section 106 Agreement.
Public Transport Contribution of £750k
Sustainable Transport Contribution of £200 x number of car parking spaces of development.
Travel Plan Advice Fee of £100 per Full Time Employee.
Travel Plan Implementation Bond of £50 per Full Time Employee.
Monitoring Fee £2,850

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/4A7795B01EEB5B1403E00E54BC72E9DB/pdf/22_01182_FUL-S106_AGREEMENT_DATED_11_DECEMBER_2023-2032318.pdf

What's this about??

[Harold77]

Hopefully this link will work to the main documents page of the application.
https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RKF1Q4FPJB600

[Harold77]

What's this about??

It is the agreement between the applicant and Darlington Council about contributions required as part of the planning application approvals.

Section 106 agreements is part of planning application approvals for developments. This is where the local authority requests funds for numerous things. Such as to be put towards road/ rail infrastructure improvements, education/ health facilities, community facilities, environmental improvements etc.

[N707ZS]

I see. Still not a word from anyone in the media, must be keeping it for election fodder.

[Grumpy1]

The planing application includes the new Jet Centre that as previously stated is the part of the development that is going ahead. Don’t think that will involve any new jobs however.

[Asturias56]

"Because he is an elected public servant who should not be exaggerate any good news and has a duty to accurately report any not so good news. "
:p
What country have you been living in for the last 7 years?

[Grumpy1]

Mr Houchen did a very interesting on line Q&A last night.
He hopes to announce the first tennant for the South Side next year.
He intends to announce tenants for the two new hangers beside the station next year. Guess that this will be the aircraft painting contractor who are repainting the Jet2 fleet but this was not confirmed by him. No mention of the Willis again or even the new Jet Centre.
May be developments on freight soon although I note that the big announcement expected in mid-December hasn't happened. Told by others that this may be down to the CAA however.
He hopes that some work will be done to the rail station next year but not sure what that means.
Having stated on his Facebook page a couple of days ago that pax numbers will increase next year he confirmed no new flights agreed but Malaga still a target.
The publication of the corruption report was not addressed but national press now suggesting that its release has been delayed again from the origional date in October and now expected mid-January and Mr H acknowledged that he may not be reelected.
Lots of well justified praise for the staff at MME with reference to airport of the year..... twice!

[N707ZS]

The rail station is shut, now behind the fence for the new hangar. The contractors haven't removed any of the old building as yet, the old cargo centre or the flying club. They seem happy moving large quantities of soil from A to B, not sure where its come from as the area used to be flat.

The "multi-million pound cargo facility", hangar 3 to anyone else is minus front doors this week, no idea why, so presume the scanners are more exposed to the elements.

[Harold77]

The mud you seen being moved about is nothing to do with the hangars. They are building a jet blast testing bund by the side of the old taxiway.

[SWBKCB]

The "multi-million pound cargo facility", hangar 3 to anyone else is minus front doors this week, no idea why, so presume the scanners are more exposed to the elements.

Wind damage?

[N707ZS]

With thanks to the teesside airport movements Christmas review. The soil is a new engine running area.

[Harold77]

Here is link to the development. I did put it up elsewhere back in November when I came across the application on the portal. Thought I'd put/ mentioned it on here, but seems as I hadn't.

https://www.developmentmanagement.stockton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=S2U0AKPKL8P00

[N707ZS]

Thanks Harold. Presume it won't get too much use.

[highwideandugly]

Merry Xmas all….great banter and cutting edge discussion all year!

Here’s to more of the same in 2024 😀

[Harold77]

Thanks Harold. Presume it won't get too much use.

I think it will get a fair bit of use, especially by Draken. But is built big enough for larger aircraft to use, so will have a lot more scope.

[Bill Darlington]

:{would 6 tons per month be an average, I think Mme only charge £60 a ton, that's would be a very low income


Cargo 6 Tonnes
Aircraft Movements 2,245
Terminal Passengers 25,901[/QUOTE]

[Bill Darlington]

Am I right in thinking that there are, 2 flights per week less than last year, during the summer ,???

[Bill Darlington]

Airport accounts shows an amazing increase in turnover from £7m to £15m, I would like to hear views as to how this may have been achieved, considering passenger numbers have not increased substantially, an increase of £8m is huge, the accounts simply show one line stating turnover, and further info is not available due to the company not be in total public ownership.
THe nett loss was ,£5.8 and not £2m
EBITDA figures are very misleading, Warren Buffett said you should substitute BS for EBITDA, he ought to know

[P330]

Am I right in thinking that there are, 2 flights per week less than last year, during the summer ,???

One less with Bulgaria being weekly. Turkey takes a break for 3-4 weeks too.

All offset by Alicante running 3 weekly over the winter so fairly flat at the moment v 2023.

[Harold77]

2021-22
Terminal Passengers 83,921
Aircraft Movements 20,130
Revenue £7,686,643
Loss -£11,882,689

2022-23
Terminal Passengers 192,283
Aircraft Movements 21,360
Cargo 14.8 tonnes
Revenue £15,575,088
Loss -£4,456,327

What happened during 2022-23:

Draken expansion
Construction of Hangar 361 and occupation with 8x Honey Badgers arriving and start operations.

2Excel 2x 727s temporary base at airport after Doncaster closed down.
Willis Aviation work builds up.

TVCA moved into Airport offices.
Property rentals.

110k extra passengers, so extra spending in shops/ cafes/ bars/ car parking.
1230 extra aircraft movements.
Cargo numbers start to be built up.
A lot more larger aircraft being handled, residential, repairs, storage and scrapped.

So a lot more income streams than the previous year.

[onion]

Interestingly the result on companies house are out.
The South Side development (joint venture) is still listed as a property development and management company with no physical asset being transferred. There is the note to state that the airport did invest £6m into this joint venture but that figure still forms part of the airports assets - note this was also in the previous years accounts so is nothing that wasn't already known about.

For me more interestingly about £5.6m of assets under construction have been transferred out of the airport.... it doesnt say where too but an educated guess would be the joint venture - this alone would of actually put the airport into profit 🤫
Add to this the fact that the buildings and runway are valued at over £40m but with depreciation amount to almost £40m as well due to a prudent approach to the situation in the aviation industry, we may see in the next couple of years a re valuation of those assets so the depreciation is shown differently.
Currently there is still a long way to go but reading between the lines and the sneaky accounting processes there is alot to be positive about!

[N707ZS]

They also haven't paid the farmer for his land on the new road. The value of that must be excessive. Hope he gets paid soon.

[Harold77]

The draw down loan facility has been boosted.

It now stands at £88m (£64.4m Airport and £23.6m Southside) of which £63.3m has been drawn down in total.

Last year the facility was £77.6m of which £44m was drawn down.

So I take it that the government funding awarded to TVCA for airport projects gets put into the loan facility to the airport, hence the boosting seen this year.

[SWBKCB]

The draw down loan facility has been boosted.

It now stands at £88m (£64.4m Airport and £23.6m Southside) of which £63.3m has been drawn down in total.

Last year the facility was £77.6m of which £44m was drawn down.

So I take it that the government funding awarded to TVCA for airport projects gets put into the loan facility to the airport, hence the boosting seen this year.

Is that right? The funding for the hangars etc were described as Grants not Loans. I'd also expect funding for a specific purpose to be held seperatley rather than going into a central fund. Of course the way the airports ownership is structured means that there is no transparency in the way taxpayers money is spent.

[SWBKCB]

Some guesses in response to H77's comments

Draken expansion
Construction of Hangar 361 and occupation with 8x Honey Badgers arriving and start operations.


Clearly a good thing. Increase in activity and good quality jobs from the additional aircraft. How was the hangar funded, I'd expect a significant contribution from TVCA/the airport?

2Excel 2x 727s temporary base at airport after Doncaster closed down.
Willis Aviation work builds up.

Again, both good things albiet 2Excel was a short term gain. It will be interesting to see how Willis develop - they are doing things at Teesside that they don't do anywhere else in their group. What happened to the Regional airliner maintenance centre that was quoted as being operational in the planning application for the new development?

TVCA moved into Airport offices.
Property rentals.

All good things, but return on investment would be interesting. Also parties and fashion shows in the terminal :ok:

110k extra passengers, so extra spending in shops/ cafes/ bars/ car parking.

A lot of money has been spent on the terminal, and getting RYR in was a coup. But it has all gone a bit flat. It's clear from RYR's behaviour that they aren't making loadsamoney, and they almost appear to be in 'contractural obligation' mode. Are the shops/cafes/bars making a return on the money spent on them? Global connectivity has gone down the list of priorities - how much would have to have been spent to keep KLM happy? I would suspect not much, so the terminal investments main benefit seems to have been to let Teessiders have a shorter journey to go on holiday - hmmm...

1230 extra aircraft movements.

I'd expect the bulk of these to be Draken and other residents who presumely pay a flat fee per year rather than per movement. Where do Draken source their fuel from? From the airport, or do they have their own supply?

Cargo numbers start to be built up.

Cargo numbers are sporadic to say the least. Based on Teesside Movements 2023 year to date figures it's 70 odd tonnes. If Bill Darlington's figure of £60 per tonne is correct, isn't paying for the cargo managers compnay car, let alone starting to repay the £3m (?) invested in cargo handling. Can only be called a disappointing start.

Unless anybody knows otherwise, all of this is Nissan related so clearly it is a good thing to be supporting one of the Northeasts biggest employers even if it is outside the TVCA area.


PS - anybody else think "Honey Badger" is the sort of nickname Michael Gove made up for himself in the hope that the big lads thought it "cool"? L-159's please!

[Bill Darlington]

2021-22
Terminal Passengers 83,921
Aircraft Movements 20,130
Revenue £7,686,643
Loss -£11,882,689

2022-23
Terminal Passengers 192,283
Aircraft Movements 21,360
Cargo 14.8 tonnes
Revenue £15,575,088
Loss -£4,456,327

What happened during 2022-23:

Draken expansion
Construction of Hangar 361 and occupation with 8x Honey Badgers arriving and start operations.

2Excel 2x 727s temporary base at airport after Doncaster closed down.
Willis Aviation work builds up.

TVCA moved into Airport offices.
Property rentals.

110k extra passengers, so extra spending in shops/ cafes/ bars/ car parking.
1230 extra aircraft movements.
Cargo numbers start to be built up.
A lot more larger aircraft being handled, residential, repairs, storage and scrapped.

So a lot more income streams than the previous year.
Would you have an explanation for the term
Gain of financial asset at fair market value... could this mean the value of the airport has increased,the value showing is. £2.7m similar to last year
And interesting that 8 board members were replaced in 2023

[Bill Darlington]

Ryanair are having significant problems with delivery of their 737s that are on order. Boeing have stated that problems continue in manufacturing and with a shortage of planes. it's very unlikely that small regional UK airports will see much additional traffic and with aircrafts becoming ever more complicated to maintain, the need for them to be at a carrier's hub is essential, something Teesside cannot offer, so it's Newcastle that will benefit.

Teesside is the only English commercial airport without any connection to other English airports, it desperately needs a connection to London and Southampton, but they have been tried before.

it really does seem there is a huge reluctance on behalf of carriers to use Teesside, it's just not seen as a suitable airport for many reasons, so I think it will be unable to expand and it's clear that Mr Houchen is vigorously exploring different avenues. he has high hopes for the business park, but in one year he has only managed to build 1% of the proposed total, and as yet that is unoccupied.

Within the Darlington area there are well over 2 million sq ft of empty unlet warehouses, so a tough call.
The local residents are all full of praise for the airport and why not, it's quiet and user friendly, but unlikely to make any money.
How long will the TVCA be prepared to provide taxpayers funds to support it, with or without the current Mayor?

[onion]

Would you have an explanation for the term
Gain of financial asset at fair market value... could this mean the value of the airport has increased,the value showing is. £2.7m similar to last year
And interesting that 8 board members were replaced in 2023
Bill if you read note 14 it explains it a little bit.
This is a likely revaluation of the investment property, e.g the fair value (done by an external group) of the property has increased. A little like you house gaining value.

[SWBKCB]

And interesting that 8 board members were replaced in 2023

Aren't most of these local councillors? Presumably the jobs get rotated.

Ryanair are having significant problems with delivery of their 737s that are on order. Boeing have stated that problems continue in manufacturing and with a shortage of planes. it's very unlikely that small regional UK airports will see much additional traffic and with aircrafts becoming ever more complicated to maintain, the need for them to be at a carrier's hub is essential, something Teesside cannot offer, so it's Newcastle that will benefit.

I think how much money is being made has more influence over how routes are allocated then these operational reasons.

[Bill Darlington]

Bill if you read note 14 it explains it a little bit.
This is a likely revaluation of the investment property, e.g the fair value (done by an external group) of the property has increased. A little like you house gaining value.
Thanks for your reply, as I thought, I presume the only real asset is the airport itself, it must be that, but it appears that the figure has been used to make the loss less, would you think likewise?

[Grumpy1]

"Ryanair are having significant problems with delivery of their 737s that are on order"
Although certainly an issue, think that was an excuse made up when Ryanair were slow to confirm that last years routes would return. Other UK airports have seen a Ryanair expansion.

"It really does seem there is a huge reluctance on behalf of other carriers to use Teesside"
When the mayor secured the Ryanair deal it was reported that there was a no competition deal preventing other low cost carriers from coming in for a period so we were never going to see Easyjet or Jet2 etc. Is this still the case?

[Markushillman]

I think in reference to Ryanair, it seems clear that with Teesside, Exeter and now my local Norwich, Ryanair realistically see these airports as a few Sunshine routes, no more no less. Clearly that is where your rumoured Malaga route will eventually come from (Norwich has Malaga coming for 2025 so the rumours go with Malta as a stand in for this year, so id expect the same for Teesside). But personally I wouldn't expect to see anything more than that in the future.

In fact if you look at Teesside and Norwich they are almost Identical now in routes, the only thing missing for Teeside which Norwich does have is a TUI summer seasonal base. Which of course opens up more routes for the airport.

So perhaps this may be your best bet for future route expansion, as clearly Ryanair have a plan for these smaller airports and it isnt a big one.

[Bill Darlington]

Yes the board members are in the main councillors but 8 resigning is just too many... sounds more like a fundamental disagreement with the major

[Bill Darlington]

Yes I seem to remember a quote that the mayor has signed a ,,7 year deal with Ryanair and he was desperate to see that deal done, as one of his pledges was to bring in a LCC hub, well he's brought in a few flights, a hub was never going to happen
reluctance may also be linked to Teessides terrible credit rating of just 1.5 out of 5...... Newcastle have 5
The mayor seems to spend a lot of time on social media telling us how great he is making the area and how the airport is progressing so rapidly , but in reality flights out next summer are down, people keep asking for more and he keeps promising, do people know his past ?

[onion]

Thanks for your reply, as I thought, I presume the only real asset is the airport itself, it must be that, but it appears that the figure has been used to make the loss less, would you think likewise?
No this is the investment properties that this specific element relates too.
The runway and associated airport buildings (terminal) are valued and almost £0 currently due to the current aviation climate.

The opposite could be said in that as the runway and terminal are valued at £0 the airport is possibly undervaluing itself.... some may say this is prudent.

[onion]

Yes the board members are in the main councillors but 8 resigning is just too many... sounds more like a fundamental disagreement with the major
Probably not as the councillors are sworn onto the board and will either have a fixed term or their terms are linked to them being councillors!
I was a director at a sport association due to being voted each year by my club to be their representative director on the association.

[SWBKCB]

And as if any disagreement would have been kept quiet!

[Grumpy1]

"do people know his past?"
In every interview I've seen he tends to edit out certain bits....... but in fairness we would probably all do that.

[Harold77]

Yes the board members are in the main councillors but 8 resigning is just too many... sounds more like a fundamental disagreement with the major

The Councillors will have lost their seats in the May elections. It is always a case that after each elections Councillors are added/ removed from Board of Directors.

So there is no real story in that 8 have resigned their position on the board, especially if they have lost their council seats.

[Bill Darlington]

On the Airport's Facebook page a couple days ago was a comment about it's loans, and one answer stated that the airport plan had been removed from the Teesside.gov page, and I checked, yes no mention of the airport at all
Seems that the mayor does not want this brought up any more.
Newcastle airport announced yet more routes last week, this time Easyjet twice weekly to Alicante from April and considerably cheaper than flying from Teesside, not good news
​​​

[Bill Darlington]

A happy New year to everyone

[Harold77]

The full Business Case for purchase is still online.

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/Appendix-2-DTVA.pdf

[SWBKCB]

To be fair to BD if you google "Tees Valley Combined Authority Teesside airport business case" this page came up as the top hit

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/investments/durham-tees-valley-airport/

and clicking on "Click here to view the full business case" link comes up "404 NOT FOUND"

H77's link isn't immediately apparent from the TVCA website menu's

[Bill Darlington]

To be fair to BD if you google "Tees Valley Combined Authority Teesside airport business case" this page came up as the top hit

https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/investments/durham-tees-valley-airport/

and clicking on "Click here to view the full business case" link comes up "404 NOT FOUND"

H77's link isn't immediately apparent from the TVCA website menu's
Not too transparent !!??
Thanks

[Grumpy1]

Outputs• Secure the 400 direct jobs at the airport
• Lead to a tenfold increase in passenger numbers by 2023 (up from 130,000 in 2017)
• Attract a low-cost carrier and up to ten additional routes, with half scheduled and half chartered flights
• See an economic impact of £421million per year, and add around 7,000 jobs in the wider economy by 2027

[highwideandugly]

That went well!

[onion]

That went well!
Only failing on one and that point was hit by COVID.

[Harold77]

Well no one knew that something like Covid would happen. That could never be foreseen it or the effects it would cause.

So out of four full Financial Years since purchase, two were wrecked by Covid.

If Covid never happened then passenger figures and routes would have bedded in well and expanded much more. The routes announced after take over never got a chance to get off the ground due to Covid. Things would certainly have been very different by now if Covid hadn't hit.

It is knowing how to read the results in the context that is required, given Covid.

There were three scenarios that business plan taken into account.

So since purchase in February 2019 to October 2023
Terminal Passengers 618,181, November will see that to just over 630k
Aircraft Movements 85,224

So from where we started from in February 2019 to October 2023 with well over two years marred by Covid, progression is heading in the right direction.

[Grumpy1]

Thanks Harold. I have just won my bet that you would introduce Covid as an excuse again that apparently only impacted on the Tees Valley but two years after the event has not caused the same stagnation at our competitors up and down the road.

I realise that some of us may not “know how to read the results” but Covid was then and this is now so making up none existent jobs, inventing imaginary new routes, plus manipulating the financials does not help.

Can we at least recognise that the current lack of new routes was not part of the plan so is disappointing please.

[SWBKCB]

I thought the view put forward was that Teesside had 'recovered' better from Covid than other airports. i.e. it is one of the few with higher passenger numbers now than before Covid?

[P330]

Multiple truths here.

MME recovered better than other airports from Covid - True

MME behind original business case PAX projections - True

Covid impacted business plans - True

MME improving its financial position year on year - True

MME currently likely to stagnate in passenger numbers in 2024 - True

MME in a much better position than it was in 2019 and for several years before - True


It’s all about whether we compare versus plans, versus other airports, versus pre-Covid actuals etc

So multiple truths….nothing to gain in trying to paint a partial story….,

My favourite term on this thread…..balance!

[onion]

More importantly the financial figures actually show that the airport is ahead of the financial target and at the end of the day that's the bottom line.

If it doesn't make money or contribute to the wider area we lose it.
So can we agree that its heading in the right direction at a quicker pace than expected!

[P330]

More importantly the financial figures actually show that the airport is ahead of the financial target and at the end of the day that's the bottom line.

If it doesn't make money or contribute to the wider area we lose it.
So can we agree that its heading in the right direction at a quicker pace than expected!

Agree!

[Grumpy1]

Thanks for the words of wisdom from the grown ups.
So the airport is certainly in a better state than it was under Peel and the current stagnation has nothing to do with Covid although the lack of growth in routes and passenger numbers being significantly less than expectations must be of concern.
In relation to the financial situation, does anybody have the anticipated finances to compare with the current figures as we must have learnt by now that we cannot simply reply mayor's word in this respect. The introduction of EBITDA rather that simple figures that could be understood by all was curious to say the least.

[highwideandugly]

Creative accounting,creative HR spin and creative Optimism.


Airport ancillary wise has done amazing.



True airport finances ..Passengers, movements and cargo…mmmm the jury is out? Time will tell..l still to this day would love to know how the airport is making profits?

[Harold77]

Thanks Harold. I have just won my bet that you would introduce Covid as an excuse again that apparently only impacted on the Tees Valley but two years after the event has not caused the same stagnation at our competitors up and down the road.

I realise that some of us may not “know how to read the results” but Covid was then and this is now so making up none existent jobs, inventing imaginary new routes, plus manipulating the financials does not help.

Can we at least recognise that the current lack of new routes was not part of the plan so is disappointing please.


Are you for real. Are you able to read and understand what I have put without making things up.

I have not introduced Covid as an excuse again.

It is there in black and white the whole world over, that for over two years Covid had a dramatic effect in every sector of every economy all around the world. When I mentioned Covid it relates to the time frame that it was.

But I forget that you only like looking at things negatively.

[Harold77]

Financial Year CAA Stats
April-October
Terminal Passengers
2022-23: 135,616 (year total 192,283)
2023-24: 165,933

Aircraft Movements
2022-23: 13,797 (year total 21,360)
2023-24: 13,708

Cargo:
2022-23: 15 Tonnes year
2023-24: 61 Tonnes so far

So as can be seen with five months of results to come in Passenger numbers are going to exceed last years in region of 25-35,000 extra.
Aircraft numbers currently slightly down as there has been numerous weather issues this year.
Cargo so far quadrupled over last years.

Also this year will see the effect that the increase in Willis traffic will have on the year end results.

So this current financial year will be further ahead than the 2022-23 results that have just been released last month.

[onion]

Thanks for the words of wisdom from the grown ups.
So the airport is certainly in a better state than it was under Peel and the current stagnation has nothing to do with Covid although the lack of growth in routes and passenger numbers being significantly less than expectations must be of concern.
In relation to the financial situation, does anybody have the anticipated finances to compare with the current figures as we must have learnt by now that we cannot simply reply mayor's word in this respect. The introduction of EBITDA rather that simple figures that could be understood by all was curious to say the least.

Go to companies house, the accounts were released about a week ago.

[onion]

Creative accounting,creative HR spin and creative Optimism.


Airport ancillary wise has done amazing.



True airport finances ..Passengers, movements and cargo…mmmm the jury is out? Time will tell..l still to this day would love to know how the airport is making profits?
It's quite clear that it isn't making a profit yet? Not sure what you are getting at?

Also the true airport finances are not passenger numbers movements or cargo..... the bottom line is £. How they make that money on the airport estate doesnt really matter as long as there is a runway, terminal building and the ability for the public to use it.

[highwideandugly]

Sorry..meant to say increasing profits!. and not losing as much!

[SWBKCB]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/plans-announced-new-fit-purpose-28373433

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has committed £20million to the cause and says the investment will see a fully accessible station installed at the airport. The current station has regularly featured among the least used in the country in recent years, with National Rail stating that it is currently "closed until further notice due to urgent repairs to the railway."

Would love to see the business case for this - should be funded by the Mayor's re-election campaign.

[P330]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/plans-announced-new-fit-purpose-28373433



Would love to see the business case for this - should be funded by the Mayor's re-election campaign.

Probably not a classic 5 year payback project that’s for sure. Presumably there would need to be a minibus linking the terminal and the station? How long would the walk be and is there a path?

[onion]

Probably not a classic 5 year payback project that’s for sure. Presumably there would need to be a minibus linking the terminal and the station? How long would the walk be and is there a path?

Ben has said there will be a shuttle bus service linking the terminal.
Ideally you'd have a shuttle bus linking the whole of the airport estate, south side included.

[SWBKCB]

Will it be running to serve the KLM 06.00 departure and the 21.35 arrival (will there be trains also)? Sounds expensive.

[onion]

Will it be running to serve the KLM 06.00 departure and the 21.35 arrival (will there be trains also)? Sounds expensive.
I'm guessing the money is coming from HS2 and as such is part of a dedicated transport pot. So probably can't be used for non transport projects.

[Get me some traffic]

Hooray, common sense at last. The railway station has long been an underused and neglected asset. I remember two converted milk floats shuttling back and forth quite often full. As Onion says, should connect to the south side as well as all of the airport estate. Paid for by the scrapping HS2. Not costing the airport but potentially bringing much improved and green access. I remember British Rail diverting two Intercity 125s to the station to pick up passengers from two diverted BA 747s and take them to London. My fingers are tightly crossed. Well done all. Happy New Year.

[SWBKCB]

Common sense? Who is going to fill this mini bus? Currently averaging 600 passengers a day, the Southside has no tenants (or workers). Is the ongoing bus support also funded by central govt taxpayers? An awful lot of expansion needed before this makes any sort of sense.

Teesside has no more pressing transport needs? Fill a lot of pot holes for £20m.

Wonder If this would be happening if Teesside Airport didn't keep getting mentioned in those lowest pax stories.

[Get me some traffic]

SWBKCB I don't understand where you are coming from. Don't you want the airport to succeed? Access to any airport is vital. Try getting to Teesside Airport by public transport. Taxis are too expensive for a lot of people and not everyone owns a car. How do you get from Bishop Auckland or Shildon to the Airport. The station asset has been there for decades and has been allowed to fall into disrepair. Let's improve all the infrastructure and the passengers/airlines/flying clubs/ bizjets etc will come. We need this airport let's support it.

[SWBKCB]

I'd like taxpayers money to be spent on something useful. Take a look at the departure board - Teesside is nowhere near the sort of passenger or employee number's to justify this level of expenditure on a train link that will require ongoing support for the link to the terminal.

[JKKne]

Sorry but this is absolutely crazy from the White Elephant Mayor.

At it's peak the station was barely used, Northern neither have the stock or desire to serve the station, it's still in a poor location

Can you tell there's an election on the horizon?

[onion]

So when he promises to do something and does it you moan, when he promises something and he doesn't or you see lack of movement you moan?

Yes we are in a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Having a accessible station and using it is better than not having it. Passengers and workers will only benefit from this.
The alternative is to remove it and lose the station.
I wonder if this is a network rail leas decision anyway with Ben taking credit for keeping it at the fore front of network rails mind.
If that is the case are you going to moan about network rail?

[SWBKCB]

I've absolutely nothing against public expenditure on required infrastructure but this build it and they will come approach is just wasting taxpayers money. Happy to moan at whoever came up with it - I'd be amazed if Network Rail are leading on this. What next, a siding to serve the freight centre that has been sat empty for two years?

Realistically, how much use do you see the railway station getting? A subsidized express bus service once passenger numbers have picked would be far more cost effective but you need to have a reach a realistic critical mass before this level of expenditure can be justified

[JKKne]

The Tees Flex DRT scheme is likely to end this year - you'd almost be better off repurposing that or some random BSIP funding.

Even this from 2021 seems more feasible

Now a Tees Valley Combined Authority (TVCA) transport report has revealed its unlikely to have any more services until the overhaul at Darlington Station is completed.
The paper stated: “Due to rail capacity constraints it is proving difficult to identify opportunities for service enhancement until after completion of the Darlington Station project in 2024. “Work is under way to develop a scheme to upgrade the station, which could facilitate a future increase in services.”

Buses run from Darlington station to the airport at the moment.

A 2020 combined authority report estimated the cost of making the current airport station safe – by removing a platform and the existing footbridge – would be about £700,000.

Chiefs ruled out moving the seldom-used stop closer to the terminal in 2019.

In the past, suggestions including more shuttle buses and even a horizontal travelator have been put forward to boost its use.

[Grumpy1]

My heart says I should welcome the restoration of the station which I should applaud but I guess we all know that this is another pre-election stunt, but in fairness that’s what politicians do.
I am old enough to remember when we had a reliable rail service (long gone) at a 30 minute interval and an electric pax carrying former milk float shuttling to/from the terminal plus a half decent number of flights to choose from. Guess what, the service was hardly used which is why the shuttle ended and rail services reduced. Car parking charges have now been hiked up but I still doubt if most would risk using public transport to catch a flight.

[Convair 440]

Road signs indicate the A67 road past the Airport Railway Station will be closed from 10th January to 26th January 2024
from 00.01 to 05.00 weekdays and 23.00 06.00 Sundays this i guess will be for the work on the station
signs have been in place since mid December

[N707ZS]

The station should be moved near to the entrance road and the housing so the passing busses can pick up the train passengers and bring them to the airport. Otherwise the major will have to buy himself a bus to travel from the station, like days of old.

[pug]

SWBKCB I don't understand where you are coming from. Don't you want the airport to succeed? Access to any airport is vital. Try getting to Teesside Airport by public transport. Taxis are too expensive for a lot of people and not everyone owns a car. How do you get from Bishop Auckland or Shildon to the Airport. The station asset has been there for decades and has been allowed to fall into disrepair. Let's improve all the infrastructure and the passengers/airlines/flying clubs/ bizjets etc will come. We need this airport let's support it.

This field of dreams thinking has seen £bns wasted in this country over many years. The idea that such a scheme should be supported without question boggles the mind.

Dedicated airport rail facilities typically don’t really work until an airport reaches a critical mass of something like 10mppa. So, unless there is some way of influencing service providers to create an integrated hub or ‘park and ride’ style service for local people to access services to London etc.. then forget it. If the Mayor is able to squander more public money on this white elephant then I despair.

[N707ZS]

If more passengers arrive by public transport the airport will loose revenue from the carpark.

[onion]

This field of dreams thinking has seen £bns wasted in this country over many years. The idea that such a scheme should be supported without question boggles the mind.

Dedicated airport rail facilities typically don’t really work until an airport reaches a critical mass of something like 10mppa. So, unless there is some way of influencing service providers to create an integrated hub or ‘park and ride’ style service for local people to access services to London etc.. then forget it. If the Mayor is able to squander more public money on this white elephant then I despair.

What white elephant?
You seem to forget he's a politican who made promises and was voted in by the people on those promises.
Unfortunately Pug this is how democracy works and if a Labour mayor got in they could pull back on the spending at the airport, but in the past that's not what the people wanted.
As mentioned before the airport is ahead of schedule on the 10 year plan.
Even if the place doesn't work the public will still own the land.

[Grumpy1]

“If more passengers arrive by public transport the airport will loose revenue from the carpark”

At one time the airport promoted parking as a benefit. With the recent price hikes it’s now more expensive to park for at MME compared with NCL, LBA or even further afield. A colleague who uses the KLM link has stopped using MME for this reason as its not much further to head north or south and there is also less chance of being cancelled. What a shame.


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