Teesside-2

[SWBKCB]

Is the taxiway from A1 to Britannia corner wider then?

I've read the definition for a taxilane and don't really get it! It seems its outside of normal controlled moving (apron, taxiways) areas. So aircraft have right of way but doesn't require as much input from ATC.

Yes - the site plan on the planning permission does show the corner being modified.

I read a taxilane as being a path defined across an apron whereas a taxiway is seperated.

[N707ZS]

This isn't the Willis complex though, is it? It's the Airbourne Colours plus one hangar down near the railway they got government funding for.

I read it as new and not Airbourne Colours. Two additional, no mention of paint spraying.

[SWBKCB]

I read it as new and not Airbourne Colours. Two additional, no mention of paint spraying.

It's nothing new, it's an amendment to the planning permission for the two down by the train station. One of those is for Airbourne Colours and there's permission for another one we've heard nothing about.

These are the one's they got the funding from Gove.

[N707ZS]

Apologies, our dear local rag is up to its old tricks. Yes nothing new here.

[Bill Darlington]

Part 2 of the Monitor's report is available and makes for interesting reading, one does wonder why Houchen keeps on reporting that the airport is ahead of the plan while the South side business park looks totally unproductive, especially considering this was to be the airports principle development scheme, the plans was always far to ambitious, and Houchen has not mentioned it for a while, and as for plan B, well thats anyone's guess

[FlyMME]

Our Lord and Saviour has been back on Facebook today. Hopes to have based aircraft Summer 25 or 26, and has been talking to Jet2, Easyjet, Wizz and Norwegian.

He did also go on to say has held very very early talks with Qatar as well so would probably take all of the above with an industrial size pinch of salt.

[SWBKCB]

You would be amazed if they weren't talking to those airlines on a regular basis (ok, maybe not Qatar) - as will every other airport in the country.

And work on the train station could start early next year.

[P330]

Yeah, pinch of salt but whilst he is fighting, there is hope. Fingers crossed for something more in 2025!

Note no mention of Ryanair?

[GrahamK]

Our Lord and Saviour has been back on Facebook today. Hopes to have based aircraft Summer 25 or 26, and has been talking to Jet2, Easyjet, Wizz and Norwegian.

He did also go on to say has held very very early talks with Qatar as well so would probably take all of the above with an industrial size pinch of salt.


Wizz would be the most likely IMO

[Harold77]

Yeah, pinch of salt but whilst he is fighting, there is hope. Fingers crossed for something more in 2025!

Note no mention of Ryanair?

He did mention Ryanair and TUI a few times.

[P330]

He did mention Ryanair and TUI a few times.

Even better. Yes, just listened to the whole piece. Seems to suggest Malaga and Tenerife before a base, with as said above, the hope for based aircraft in 25 or 26.

He did mention aircraft delivery delays too affecting the market Harold. 😉. I’ll get the popcorn…,

[Bill Darlington]

During that lengthy speech,he has promised multiple flights a new hospital and a complete rebuild of Teesside, the hospital alone will cost over £800 million, and of course thousands of jobs on projects that yet are to be financed, and of course we'll see nothing unless we vote for him,
The hospital bit came from a recent statement from the.nhs that North Tees has another 8 years, before a rebuild
Lots of promises, too many to count

[Grumpy1]

He did mention aircraft delivery delays too affecting the market Harold. 😉. I’ll get the popcorn…,
He said that he had been told and we know it's one of the myths that somebody has been peddling on facebook, especially when sucking up to the mayor. What he didnt say was that either Ryanair or the Airport had told him that this was why the extra flights that were supposed to be in the bag did not materialise.

[onion]

5 in the hold at NCL and looks like 2 are diverting.
Anyone know the reason, maybe diverts inbound.

[SWBKCB]

Hole in the runway at NCL - two Loganair div to MME, RYR to EDI, TUI to MAN, LS training flight carried on to BHX (good practice!)

[Diff Tail Shim]

Hole in the runway at NCL - two Loganair div to MME, RYR to EDI, TUI to MAN, LS training flight carried on to BHX (good practice!)
pot hole. And as MME would not extend, aircraft stuck there tonight.

[onion]

pot hole. And as MME would not extend, aircraft stuck there tonight.
May also have to do with CAT for fire cover as well.

[SWBKCB]

May also have to do with CAT for fire cover as well.

It looks like the fire cover level mean that only the Embraers could be taken, which then got stuck at MME before they could recover to NCL once the runway opened because of the airport closing.

Can anybody confirm?

[onion]

It looks like the fire cover level mean that only the Embraers could be taken, which then got stuck at MME before they could recover to NCL once the runway opened because of the airport closing.

Can anybody confirm?
But there has been no urgency to get them out this morning!

[P330]

Looks like KLM stepping back in today to cover the afternoon rotation.

[Harold77]

February Stats

Terminal Passengers 13,171
Aircraft Movements 1,544

[P330]

Yes, similar trends to January Harold.

After 2 months, year on year passengers are 16% up (or around 3,500 people) driven by the extra Alicante rotation v prior year and improvements on Amsterdam. Aberdeen continues to be well down (fewer rotations). This is likely to be replicated in March.

The interesting analysis begins from April when Aberdeen will be a like for like comparisons as will the Ryanair flights. Amsterdam will be a test and we'll be able to see how the Eastern performance is affecting numbers. Then from May through to October, with no new flights yet available, it will be interesting to see if the reduced Bulgaria and the change in Turkey is offset by the greater availability of Amsterdam (Sat night), which it itself will be tested by poor performance and so far the lower capacity aircraft.

I still maintain, that until something new comes on line, we're probably looking at a flat year for passengers numbers (give or take a couple of thousand here or there).

[tigertanaka]

Very minor data point but my flight to AMS tomorrow has been pulled forwards 10 minutes from 0620 to 0610. I got a bit worried when I received an email this morning from KLM saying it had been rescheduled. Never had anything like such a last minute timing change on 170 odd flights MME<>AMS before. Maybe KLM are rejigging slots to help out Eastern in a small way?

[N707ZS]

I bet it should have been plus 10 or more.

[SWBKCB]

A commercial property consultancy has been appointed to market Teesside International Airport's 2.8 million sq ft business park, following a competitive tender process. Naylors Gavin Black has been selected to generate international and national interest in the strategic site which aims to bring significant inward investment into Teesside. The business is working alongside Colliers International and aviation real estate specialist AREA.

https://www.insidermedia.com/news/north-east/property-consultancy-appointed-to-major-teesside-airport-scheme

[markhillmana320flyer]

Aberdeen route has been cancelled effective 10th May, however Newcastle has also been axed, credit to @SeanM1997 on X

[FlyMME]

Credit to SeanM1997 on Twitter - Loganair dropping Aberdeen from 10 May.

Would expect Eastern to pick that back up?

[P330]

Can’t pretend this is good news.

Of course, someone else may step in but that is 12K passengers now at risk for this year.

I’m sure Loganair haven’t helped, but, there is no doubt the market for Aberdeen is not as strong as it was in part due to the decline of O&G but also business travel policies.

[SWBKCB]

There is only Eastern who could realistically pick up the route, would they be keen to come back?! With NCL being dropped as well, I agree it looks like a declining market

[Harold77]

Eastern have vacancies advertised for Teesside. So I would presume that Eastern are coming in soon with a range of routes.

[P330]

Eastern have vacancies advertised for Teesside. So I would presume that Eastern are coming in soon with a range of routes.

I've heard this rumour too. Look, I'm sure we'll take anything (if the rumours are true) but am I the only one who gets nervous when Eastern is mentioned?

[N707ZS]

Would it be worth increasing the size of aircraft on the Humberside Aberdeen flight and stopping off at Teesside each way. This would also open up the route to Humberside for the rig and offshore workers who fly from there.

[P330]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/loganair-pulls-out-teesside-airport-29052751

Now in the press, with a statement from the airport confirming they are talking to other operators about running the route.

[DP.]

I've heard this rumour too. Look, I'm sure we'll take anything (if the rumours are true) but am I the only one who gets nervous when Eastern is mentioned?

I'd think anyone who has had experience of dealing with Eastern would get nervous if they became your only option.

[SWBKCB]

A spokesperson for the airport said: “It is disappointing to see Loganair pull routes from various UK airports, including Newcastle. We’d like to thank all of those who have used the route over the years and, as we continue to develop our route offer, we are examining opportunities for alternative airlines to provide this route. In the meantime, we have just kicked off our 2024 summer season and – despite this news – we are expecting the biggest and best year since the airport was brought back into public ownership. Our new Dalaman route is proving hugely popular, along with our mainstays of Corfu, Faro and Majorca. We are also continuing to deliver on our plan to return the airport to profitability which includes major progress on the development of our £200million southside Business Park, the creation of new hangar space and attracting new companies such as Airbourne Colours and new air freight service from FedEx."

Interesting statement - the usual dig at Newcastle, no mention of 'mainstay' Alicante, no mention of Willis

[P330]

I suspect the lack of comment on Willis or Alicante was a simple omission. The Newcastle reference though is just petty (though clearly designed to show MME wasn't being singled out).

Concentrate on your own affairs before commenting on others I'd say to the MME spokesperson.

[SWBKCB]

Agreed - does make you wonder about the process involved in putting out such statements

[Grumpy1]

Wonder if our Mayor acknowledges the disapointing news in the week before the election?
Certainly looking forward to "Eastern coming soon with a range of routes" that only Harold seems to know about.

[Robert-Ryan]

I'd say it wasn't a dig at Newcastle at all but rather an effort to counter the Gazette headline which singles us out, why should they tolerate that when it's not just us?

[SWBKCB]

We'll agree to differ then. It's not like it's the first time.

[Robert-Ryan]

Yes but it's normally aggressive and calculated, this isn't

[flybar]

I'd say it wasn't a dig at Newcastle at all but rather an effort to counter the Gazette headline which singles us out, why should they tolerate that when it's not just us?
So why not mention Glasgow as well if it's not a dig at Newcastle?

[Diff Tail Shim]

But there has been no urgency to get them out this morning!
Crew duty hours?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Credit to SeanM1997 on Twitter - Loganair dropping Aberdeen from 10 May.

Would expect Eastern to pick that back up?
If they have got the assets or the people to do it. They may not.

[Harold77]

Interesting quote from the Mayor this morning.

"Hopefully we can get to a place where there isn't actually disruption in service. But watch what happens in the coming weeks."

Is it a case of election purdah means announcement can't be made in run up to the election. So would mean next Friday would be the earliest could be announced.

[Grumpy1]

Blimey that's creative thinking Harold. Certainly one of your better ones.
Surley nothing to stop an airline or the airport announcing a new route if a deal is done and think we can be confident that if he funds an new operator we will know all about it before the election.

[Bill Darlington]

Despite the mayor having a difficult week, what with Loganair, having to appoint yet another estate agent to handle the South side business park, now 3, strong comments from Steve Gibson, and a not too flattering TV interview, he has come out positive and suggesting that talks are in progress with the "profitable" Aberdeen route, and it seems like his army of followers are still behind him, nevertheless the loss of Loganair has come as a blow more as a matter of pride, than the 12k passengers, so will the airport have a new leader, too close to call. ??

[Harold77]

Houchen, election candidates, Local Authorities or their controlled companies can't make any announcements other than in an emergency during the election purdah window.

Yesterday was the public announcement of routes being pulled by the airline, airport operators will have been given advance notice of routes being pulled, it wouldn't have been sprung upon them. So talks will have been underway well before the public announcement by Logan yesterday.

[Grumpy1]

Just enquired. Think Harold is guilty of his wishful thinking again as nothing to stop the Airport or an Airline giving notification of a replacement airline to continue the route if there was one.
I count that as the 12th route to close under the current regime.

[Harold77]

I count that as the 12th route to close under the current regime.

Versus at least 33 routes closed under previous regime.

But are you counting chickens before they hatch.

[N707ZS]

Which previous regime is that, that closed 33 routes. Can you name them?

[Harold77]

Which previous regime is that, that closed 33 routes. Can you name them?

Under Peel.

Paris CdG
Alicante
Ibiza
Malaga
Palma M
Reus
Corfu
Larnica
Paphos
Rome C
Rome F
Arrecife
Bodrum
Dalaman
Burgas
Monastir
Tenerife S
Mahon
Las Palmas
Prague
Cork
Dublin
Newquay
Rhodes
Faro
Heathrow
Gatwick
Belfast Int
Gerona
Warsaw
Southampton
Sharm El Sheikh

Only routes have stayed throughout is Aberdeen, Amsterdam & Jersey.

[Grumpy1]

Harold gives us a timely reminder that the airport appears unable to generate enough business to sustain routes other than AMS and the bucket and spade destinations that many assume the mayor is subsidising.
In the circumstances perhaps not a good idea for him to invent his tales about talks being already underway with new operators or that a range of new routes are coming.

[onion]

Harold gives us a timely reminder that the airport appears unable to generate enough business to sustain routes other than AMS and the bucket and spade destinations that many assume the mayor is subsidising.
In the circumstances perhaps not a good idea for him to invent his tales about talks being already underway with new operators or that a range of new routes are coming.
A little harsh Grumpy when it has been reported that they are in talks with airline re routes all the time.
All Harold has done is speculated on reports in the media if we don't believe his insider knowledge.

I ll speculate and say i think the Aberdeen will return and hopefully on a user friendly schedule. (No insider knowledge unfortunately)

[Grumpy1]

It must be obvious that Harold has no insider knowledge although there are some on here who do. Not sure it is harsh given his record for, at times, potentialy damaging invention.

[N707ZS]

He miss the Liege TNT flight.

[SWBKCB]

Houchen, election candidates, Local Authorities or their controlled companies can't make any announcements other than in an emergency during the election purdah window.



Teesside became the first airport in the country to offer direct lounge to aircraft experience on Tuesday (23 April).

Emergency announcement? Actual guidance is below

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teesside-first-airport-in-uk-to-offer-direct-lounge-to-aircraft-boarding/

https://www.local.gov.uk/publications/short-guide-publicity-during-pre-election-period

[SWBKCB]

Ooops

This is the only lounge at T3 from which passengers can board the aircraft directly. .

https://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested/lounge-review-emirates-lounge-heathrow-t3/

[Harold77]

It must be obvious that Harold has no insider knowledge although there are some on here who do. Not sure it is harsh given his record for, at times, potentialy damaging invention.

I have never given out any insider knowledge. Any information I have said on the forums are what is already in the public domain in one form or another. I cannot be held liable when information is in the public domain.

[N707ZS]

Its D-day for the mayor on election day Thursday. Very few are bothered to go and vote by the sound of it.

[Bill Darlington]

Yes just a few days, he has been posting 5 times a day, telling us the same old guff , it's amazing that voters believe him, it's normal that there's not a lot of interest in local elections, but Houchen is not normal,
He's managed to tell us about 50 times how he has saved the airport ,and how magnificent he is, ... maybe if he gets voted back in he'll build a nuclear power station and a state of the art hospital, and many other major projects , but probably not

[Harold77]

Its D-day for the mayor on election day Thursday. Very few are bothered to go and vote by the sound of it.

In four of the five Councils it is just Mayor & PCC that are being balloted.
One Council has third of the Council Chamber up for election as well.

So I can see a lower turnout than the last election in 2021, just because of the lack of other elections taking place. I'd be very surprised if 169k votes are cast in the Mayoral election like there was in 2021 when Houchen got 122k of the vote.

[highwideandugly]

The airport is his pet love and crusade..he almost lives there..maybe he’s a secret spotter!…

Hypothetically..if he does get in…what do we expect the next major announcements to be?

Conversely..if he doesn’t…??

[FlyMME]

It will no doubt be Tenerife and Malaga announced, whoever is mayor.

[Bill Darlington]

. Remember this announcement by Houchen regarding the new Solar Park that SSE was building.......Energy giant SSE Energy Solutions has launched an office base at Teesside International Airport as part of the company’s ambitious growth plans for the region.

The FTSE 100 company has signed a lease for a unit in the airport terminal, with staff now working from the location.

The agreement follows an announcement last month that SSE is to deliver a major solar power project at Teesside International Airport.

The new office is part of a wider recruitment expansion across the Tees Valley by the company, providing opportunities and skills for workers from across the region.

The new office will initially provide a base for up to 15 employees with a plan to grow to double that figure within two years.

Nehal Mehta, Director of Regions and Social Value with SSE Energy Solutions, said: “As part of our ongoing commitment to the region we are opening an office hub at Teesside International Airport to help recruitment in green jobs and bring in local talent from a diverse range of background
_-----------------------------------------------------------------

Well turns out that's a deliberate falsehood
As it has not featured in any of houchen's big election build up, I asked SSE, and this was their answer
--------------+------------

Sorry, SSE does not have an office at the airport. It is the airport who are developing the project so any employment opportunities would run through them.Good luck,Pieter

One wonders.

[SWBKCB]

deliberate falsehood - surely not? From the Gazette:

Posting on Facebook (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/all-about/facebook), Lord Houchen said: "Labour (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/all-about/labour-party) sold off our airport to Peel (for nothing) and then helped them run it into the ground. The Labour candidate in the mayoral election 'sought to build' 350 houses on the airport, which would have seen our airport closed... all before he took a seat on the airport board with Peel.

[Cautious Optimist]

There is definitely an office in the terminal actively occupied with the SSE logo on the door

I think even Peels critics understood that the 350 houses were on surplus land, their argument was that they wouldn't have stopped there but generally speaking that said houses would not have closed the airport

I see the guy who held the rights to the Teesside International Airport name has had Alex Cunningham write to Government and try to get the TVCA to do some kind of proper transfer, Ben seems to think if successful we would have to go back to Durham Tees Valley?!

[Bill Darlington]

That's interesting that there's a SSE logo on the door
The email came from– Pieter D’haan Sector Director for Generation & Storage at SSE Energy Solutions,

[teej013]

SSE - DTV Joint Venture. From the SSE Site:

https://www.sseenergysolutions.co.uk/news-and-insights/teesside-international-airport-jv

[N707ZS]

A major problem will be connecting the site to the grid.

[P330]

Bill - what is it with your persistent conspiracy theory agenda?? It is now becoming a parody!

You continue to berate the mayor for falsehoods and misleading information, yet, apparently you think it is acceptable for you to push one sided arguments, half truths and headline grabbing nonsense.

The irony is, there are grains of truth is some of what you say, but your pursuit of the negative at the expense of anything positive or balanced renders much of what you say questionable. Not too dissimilar to what some of us say about Houchen.....

[Bill Darlington]

It's not really a conspiracy theory, it's much more simple, I just believe very little of what Houchen says

[highwideandugly]

I know not many on here follow Facebook or twitter(X)..but for those that don’t..it’s almost an unhealthy obsession , the amount of time Benji is spending on those platforms telling everyone how he saved the airport and has developed it into a major part of Teesside life!

Local transport,crime and honesty seems to be taking a back seat in his vocal expenditure!

I sometimes wonder if airlines ever look and take any notice of the PR overload?

[Bill Darlington]

Yes 7 posts on FB and 7 on Instagram, just today !!!

[SWBKCB]

The old magician's trick - look at the shiny thing in my right hand, ignore what the left hand is doing.... :ok:

[P330]

[QUOTE=Bill Darlington;11646287]It's not really a conspiracy theory, it's much more simple, I just believe very little of what Houchen says[/QUOTE

I get that. But if we get obsessed with one side of the coin and go hunting for anything that backs it up, or when there is no facts, fill it with sarcasm and half truths, then we’re doing what we accuse Houchen of.

[Harold77]

Well it is election time so you expect contenders to be constantly putting up posts numerous times a day on the run in to the election, its all part of modern electioneering. Out of election season and its few times a week.

[highwideandugly]

Slight change of topic!

Can any clever person shed any light on the function or reason behind the Charitable Foundation that was set up by Benji as he saved the airport from the carnage that was Peel (allegedly) and Labours plan for the airports future?

[Harold77]

Once the Airport is in profit. Some of profits will go into the Foundation to give out to good causes.

[highwideandugly]

Ok thanks….Harold

[SWBKCB]

And including it in the ownership structure protects from FOI's. Much like with Stobart.

[skyman771]

Once the Airport is in profit. Some of profits will go into the Foundation to give out to good causes.

Harold77 did you actually manage to arrive at this conclusion all on your own? as it's complete nonsense..., as said it' been set up to evade FOI, i.e. transparency as to what is financially actually going on at MME.

That the airport will ever make a "profit" with distributable reserves seems pure fantasy, & if they did then then these funds would no doubt be required for reinvestment.

[Harold77]

Conclusion on my own. Really.

If people happen to listen and look at when things are announced and explained then they will be able to understand.

Most companies give slices of profits to charities/ good causes.

[SWBKCB]

But they don't set up their own charities and give them a big chunk of the company.

And their entry on the airports website makes no mention of being funded by airport profits.

[SWBKCB]

According to this article both Skyman and Harold are wrong

Funds will initially be set aside to support the trust, with these increasing as the airport moves into profit in line with its 10-Year Turnaround Plan. The trust will deliver financial support and assistance to charities running projects, schemes and initiatives to improve the lives of people across the region.

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/mayor-give-teesside-international-new-protections-against-being-sold-without-referndum/

Be interesting to see the charities accounts and see what's been collected and donated

This is an interesting piece - not sure how this referendum business works?To safeguard Teesside International Airport for future generations, Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has introduced new protections that will mean the people’s airport can never again be sold off without the express support of local people through a public referendum. In the future, before Teesside Airport could be sold, a referendum would have to be held across Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool and permission from local people would be required. To provide these protections Mayor Houchen is establishing The Teesside Airport Foundation, a new independent charitable trust that, along with safeguarding the future of the airport, will focus on education, employment, welfare and regeneration across the region. The Foundation will hold the 25% stake in the airport that will be transferred back to the airport, at no cost, from Esken, previously known as Stobart Group.

[Grumpy1]

What? Harold is wrong again? Surely not!

[N707ZS]

Other than a few bits of paperwork and a name on a door can anyone give examples/evidence that the trust exists.

[Grumpy1]

Given how active the Mayor is at self publicity is it not reasonable to assume that if the charity had done any good works we would know all about it.

[Bill Darlington]

The latest poll has Houchen 7 points ahead, I agree I think he has it in the bag, at least it'll keep us active !!

[Gsm1]

Teesside gets its Aberdeen route back! 🙂

[SWBKCB]

From the movements website:

Eastern are taking over the Aberdeen route, 6x weekly from 13th May then 10x weekly from September

[highwideandugly]

Social media overload tonight!…something happening tomorrow?

[Grumpy1]

Good news on the eve of the election.
Bet Harold now regrets making up his purdah tall tale...... or perhaps somebody needs to call the election police?

[Atlantic Explorer]

“Eastern are taking over the Aberdeen route, 6x weekly from 13th May then 10x weekly from September”

Hmmmm, what could possibly go wrong?

[P330]

Anyone know what equipment Eastern are planning on using?

More life yet in the old J41s?

Noted the Amsterdam's on-time performance is much better since switching to the 190!

[Albert Hall]

They look to have solved whatever problem was killing the operation every lunchtime through Schiphol on both lines of flying, from which they never recovered. I wondered if they were trying to get the daily checks done by KLC in AMS and they've moved that to the evenings instead when the aircraft have a couple of hours' turn between the last arrival into AMS and the final sector of the day back to base. I can't think what else would have been causing an issue.

[SWBKCB]

Are they still parking on jetbridges or using the remotes?

[Diff Tail Shim]

“Eastern are taking over the Aberdeen route, 6x weekly from 13th May then 10x weekly from September”

Hmmmm, what could possibly go wrong?
Jetstream from ABZ I wager.

[SWBKCB]

Initially the new daily flights will be the only direct service from the North-East to Aberdeen when they begin on Monday 20th May, operating daily weekdays and Sundays before increasing to twice daily from Monday 9th September.

Has the definition of the word 'daily' changed?

Does nobody check the airports press releases? This is another one littered with mistakes.

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teesside-airport-secures-eastern-airways-as-new-operator-for-aberdeen-service/

[P330]

Not yet bookable, but Ryanair to Alicante appears to be showing in the App for winter 24/25. Looks to be twice weekly, Mon and Sat. So, if correct, a reduction v this winter.

[HH6702]

Not yet bookable, but Ryanair to Alicante appears to be showing in the App for winter 24/25. Looks to be twice weekly, Mon and Sat. So, if correct, a reduction v this winter.

NCL has increased to 5 weekly over 4 last winter
also looks like NCL is getting a 3rd based aircraft

[SWBKCB]

Eastern ABZ flights don't seem to be on sale yet - but "Teesside (Seasonal)" has appeared in the drop down menu - a hang over from the Jersey flights?