Teesside-2

[pug]

What white elephant?
You seem to forget he's a politican who made promises and was voted in by the people on those promises.
Unfortunately Pug this is how democracy works and if a Labour mayor got in they could pull back on the spending at the airport, but in the past that's not what the people wanted.
As mentioned before the airport is ahead of schedule on the 10 year plan.
Even if the place doesn't work the public will still own the land.

Was he voted in on promises to invest £20 million into a railway station that lost services after it was one of the least used railway stations on the entire network?

There is an element of responsibility when making pledges, obviously that has gone to the wall in this populist political era, but still. To invest so much in this instance is verging on the criminal in terms of its negligence.

[SouthernAlliance]

Wow, £20m on a new station that will potentially service a handful of pax. Sounds very much like another of the mayors PR stunts pre election!

[onion]

£20m is alot but this money is coming from the windfall from HS2. The quoted revamp for the station was originally £6m so not entirely sure where they managed to get to £20m! Unless that's what he's been given as the windfall. There was mention of upgrades to other stations in the Tees Valley area as well.... is it possible that £20m is being spent across the region on stations?

[SWBKCB]

£20m is alot but this money is coming from the windfall from HS2. The quoted revamp for the station was originally £6m so not entirely sure where they managed to get to £20m! Unless that's what he's been given as the windfall. There was mention of upgrades to other stations in the Tees Valley area as well.... is it possible that £20m is being spent across the region on stations?

From the Gazette - note start date of 2027/28:Following the scrapping of the Northern leg of the HS2 rail line, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak announced an additional £8.55 billion of funding to be provided through city region sustainable transport settlements (CRSTS). This meant that the Tees Valley was allocated a total of £978m of funding for CRSTS for years 2027/28 to 2031/32.

[Harold77]

Was he voted in on promises to invest £20 million into a railway station that lost services after it was one of the least used railway stations on the entire network?

The reason why it was least used station on the network.

For a number of decades there was only ever a parliamentary train service. Which in words was one service each way a week. Used to be on a Saturday morning, then changed to a Sunday morning.

So that is the reason of hardly any passengers using the station.

[pug]

The reason why it was least used station on the network.

For a number of decades there was only ever a parliamentary train service. Which in words was one service each way a week. Used to be on a Saturday morning, then changed to a Sunday morning.

So that is the reason of hardly any passengers using the station.

Ok so what was the reason at that time that meant that the service operators did not stop there as part of the network? Was it possibly because there wouldn’t be any passengers using it so it would only serve to inconvenience people and times on the routes had they stopped there?

Houchen even claims that Network Rail wanted to demolish the station but he’s ‘saved the day’ yet again and decided to keep it open using money from the HS2 windfall. I’m certain that the Tees Valley region has some actual transport shortfalls elsewhere that need cash injections.

Even the most ardent supporters of the airports development must question this utter nonsense.

[SWBKCB]

Ok so what was the reason at that time that meant that the service operators did not stop there as part of the network? Was it possibly because there wouldn’t be any passengers using it so it would only serve to inconvenience people and times on the routes had they stopped there?

Even the most ardent supporters of the airports development must question this.

Agreed - there was only one train a week because there were no passengers. The rail company would have stopped it completely but to do so requires parliamentary agreement. I'd wager that there won't be enough passengers once the station is re-built to justify the moeny spent. Passenger numbers will need to climb significantly to justify the expenditure of the new station and the shuttle service that will be needed to support it and there will be stories/pictures of empty shuttle buses endlessly trundling around. And no, having a train station won't attract significant numbers of passengers to justify new services.

Yes, the Mayor has a democratic mandate to save the airport, but that doesn't mean he gets free rein to chuck good money after bad.

[pug]

Agreed - there was only one train a week because there were no passengers. The rail company would have stopped it completely but to do so requires parliamentary agreement. I'd wager that there won't be enough passengers once the station is re-built to justify the moeny spent. Passenger numbers will need to climb significantly to justify the expenditure of the new station and the shuttle service that will be needed to support it and there will be stories/pictures of empty shuttle buses endlessly trundling around. And no, having a train station won't attract significant numbers of passengers to justify new services.

Yes, the Mayor has a democratic mandate to save the airport, but that doesn't mean he gets free rein to chuck good money after bad.

It’s almost like this Ben Houchen is living on another planet entirely. It’s one thing to save the airport and ensure its future proofed by investing in business parks to generate ancillary revenue, it’s another entirely to start pretending the place is some intercontinental hub worthy of its own railway station and going against Network Rail to rebuild the station at significant public expense.

Did Santa not bring him any Lego again this Christmas?

[Grumpy1]

When there are gaps of many many hours during the day between flights, is the airport going to fund what will inevitably be an empty shuttle bus running backwards and forwards between the station and the terminal and if so for how many years?
The previous rail operator reduced the airport service and the number of stops at Dinsdale, Allans West and at one time even Eaglescliffe to accelerate the service between Darlington and Middlesbrough so I can imagine resistance to adding several minutes to each journey to accommodate airport stops. The mayor has stated that journey times will increase by only 45 seconds which sadly demonstrates either a lack of understanding unless he is just making things up again.

[mmeman]

I have won multiple bets by coming on here and predicting who would say what about the proposed new station...

[Cautious Optimist]

What was I down for? 😂

[N707ZS]

Driving the Station bus!:O

[AirportPlanner1]

Two things to be wary of. It could be a very good investment in rail infrastructure, should the ultimate plan be to convert the whole place into a new town/‘garden community’. It could also be a means of directing public money towards favoured recipients who will be doing the ‘works’.

Of course, there could be a genuine long term plan to develop north of the station for housing. But what is for sure is that this isn’t genuinely for the airport, and if it was there is no world in which this represents a responsible use of taxpayers money.

[N707ZS]

Is the twenty million just for the airport station or the whole line? That would be interesting to know. For it to work they will have to build two new platforms and means to cross the tracks.

[virginblue]

Financial Year CAA Stats

Cargo:
2022-23: 15 Tonnes year
2023-24: 61 Tonnes so far

Cargo so far quadrupled over last years.



I don't want to rain on anyone's parade and every bit helps of ocurse, but 61t of cargo is the equivalent of something like 3 Boeing 737 freighter flights, isn't it?

[Grumpy1]

Or two wagon loads.....

[Bill Darlington]

Is the twenty million just for the airport station or the whole line? That would be interesting to know. For it to work they will have to build two new platforms and means to cross the tracks.

“If more passengers arrive by public transport the airport will loose revenue from the carpark”

At one time the airport promoted parking as a benefit. With the recent price hikes it’s now more expensive to park for at MME compared with NCL, LBA or even further afield. A colleague who uses the KLM link has stopped using MME for this reason as its not much further to head north or south and there is also less chance of being cancelled. What a shame.


.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade and every bit helps of ocurse, but 61t of cargo is the equivalent of something like 3 Boeing 737 freighter flights, isn't it?
SO that's about 200 kg per day, well that will take about,...10 minutes, what happening the rest of the day

[Grumpy1]

"For it to work they will have to build two new platforms and means to cross the tracks"

There is little doubt that the current station is beyond repair. The platforms are wasted, the decking is rotten and the bridge is heavily corroded.

The new station is required to be accessible to disabled people so that will mean either ramps as well as steps serving the footbridge or expensive to maintain lifts on either side of the bridge. The height of the bridge will have to be raised to accommodate future electrification of the line.

All good for photos again when the sun gets round on an afternoon unless there are officious parking restrictions.

[TheSpiddalKid]

With cost overruns in much of recent rail infrastructure, I wondered if the quoted £20m would be enough. Network Rail opts for a carbon copy approach to the new station design. You would think this should bring costs down, but when I looked at the costs of recent station openings, there is a massive amount of variance. Below is a list of station openings recently (Barring Brent Cross East, as it has been over-engineered, so it is an unfair comparator).

Headbolt Lane, £80m (https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/news/mayor-hails-progress-at-headbolt-lane-station-as-opening-approaches)
Reading Green Park £20m https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-65698714
Marsh Barton £16m https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/construction-16million-rail-station-exeters-19624961
Thanet Parkway £44m https://kentandsurreybylines.co.uk/business/transport/thanet-parkway-station-opens/#:~:text=It%20cost%20%C2%A344m%2C%20funded,Thanet%20District %20council%20and%20KCC.
Portway Park & Ride £5.8m https://busandtrainuser.com/2023/07/22/portway-on-the-way/
East Linton £15m https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects/east-linton-station#:~:text=Construction%20starts%20on%20East%20Linton%2 0station&text=Work%20is%20now%20underway%20to,You%20can%20read%20more %20here.

It surprised me how much difference there is; what I am taking from the above is that where there is a higher cost, this may be down to local considerations, such as the station being on a viaduct. £20m based on today's prices may be enough, but the risk is inflation and how long it takes to get spades in the ground.
Some comments have been on whether Houchen may offer this money as jobs for friends. Anything on railway land must be designed and commissioned by Network Rail, including a selection of contractors. There will be more limited ability to play with pork barrel politics unless he uses a friend as a middleman, who then creams off a hefty commission.

[Bill Darlington]

With cost overruns in much of recent rail infrastructure, I wondered if the quoted £20m would be enough. Network Rail opts for a carbon copy approach to the new station design. You would think this should bring costs down, but when I looked at the costs of recent station openings, there is a massive amount of variance. Below is a list of station openings recently (Barring Brent Cross East, as it has been over-engineered, so it is an unfair comparator).

Headbolt Lane, £80m (https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/news/mayor-hails-progress-at-headbolt-lane-station-as-opening-approaches)
Reading Green Park £20m https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-65698714
Marsh Barton £16m https://www.business-live.co.uk/regional-development/construction-16million-rail-station-exeters-19624961
Thanet Parkway £44m https://kentandsurreybylines.co.uk/business/transport/thanet-parkway-station-opens/#:~:text=It%20cost%20%C2%A344m%2C%20funded,Thanet%20District %20council%20and%20KCC.
Portway Park & Ride £5.8m https://busandtrainuser.com/2023/07/22/portway-on-the-way/
East Linton £15m https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects/east-linton-station#:~:text=Construction%20starts%20on%20East%20Linton%2 0station&text=Work%20is%20now%20underway%20to,You%20can%20read%20more %20here.

It surprised me how much difference there is; what I am taking from the above is that where there is a higher cost, this may be down to local considerations, such as the station being on a viaduct. £20m based on today's prices may be enough, but the risk is inflation and how long it takes to get spades in the ground.
Some comments have been on whether Houchen may offer this money as jobs for friends. Anything on railway land must be designed and commissioned by Network Rail, including a selection of contractors. There will be more limited ability to play with pork barrel politics unless he uses a friend as a middleman, who then creams off a hefty commission.
Is this just another way to try and support airport passenger numbers, if it is, it's a very expensive route, with little potential return or am i missing something

[N707ZS]

Some comments have been on whether Houchen may offer this money as jobs for friends. Anything on railway land must be designed and commissioned by Network Rail, including a selection of contractors. There will be more limited ability to play with pork barrel politics unless he uses a friend as a middleman, who then creams off a hefty commission.

He has already worked on a number of rail projects so will know all of the contractors in the club.

[highwideandugly]

Next pet project apparently is a bridge or tunnel under the Tees…busy guy the mayor!

[Grumpy1]

"Next pet project apparently is a bridge or tunnel under the Tees…busy guy the mayor!"

It's for all of those people in Hartlepool who are desperate to escape to Redcar. Or could it be that there is an election coming?

[SWBKCB]

Or maybe it's to provide relief to the A19 and better access to Teessworks/ports etc? Certainly a better candidate for funding than the airport train stop.

[Grumpy1]

A second Tees crossing to take pressure off the A19 has been talked about for years although the number of houses that would need to be knocked down to accommodate the access roads will always be an issue. Based on the mayors FB video he does not seem to talking about that however.
Would a Hartlepool to Redcar car ferry win many votes perhaps?

[N707ZS]

"Next pet project apparently is a bridge or tunnel under the Tees…busy guy the mayor!"

It's for all of those people in Hartlepool who are desperate to escape to Redcar. Or could it be that there is an election coming?

Get it right guys it a one million pound study, only.

[SWBKCB]

Private Eye have commented on the airport accounts in the latest issue 😳

[SWBKCB]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-draws-down-63m-28346873Teesside International Airport has drawn down more than £60m in loans out of a £88m taxpayer pot in its first four years. Annual accounts published online show the taxpayer-owned airport remained in the red - although the overall loss has dropped by over 60% from £11.9m in 21/22 to £4.5m the following financial year. Turnover more than doubled as international travel returned following the impact of the Covid pandemic.

By March 2023, the airport had drawn down more than 70% of the Tees Valley Combined Authority (TVCA) loans - which span until March 2029. The airport is ahead of a forecasted business plan to return to profit after being brought back into public hands for £40m in 2019. At the time, a further £35m was to be drawn down as required for the first decade to help fund the site through a TVCA loan.

Over the years, this has been increased to £64.4m - which comprises the original £35m loan and the two additional loans of £10m (approved in 2021) and £20m (approved in 2022) "required due to Covid 19 and the impact of the global pandemic on the aviation industry".

The day-to-day working capital requirements are met through cash generated from operations and utilising a loan facility provided by the Tees Valley Combined Authority, the accounts state.

The loans are being used to "support the expansion of Teeside Airport including terminal improvements, capital investments in the freight and new business park, operational costs including the general running of the airport and paying staff wages," an airport spokesperson says.

The accounts report states: "A [loan] facility for an amount of £23.6m which is due to be used to fund the Southside development is in place. The total amount drawn down at the year end under both facilities was £63.3m and further draw downs are forecast to be made over the next two to three years in line with the company's development and expansion plans."

The loan is repayable on demand but the airport received a letter of continued support for not less than 12 months from date of signing from the TVCA. The £23.6m loan to build the Southside business park - a £200m vision to create more than 4,000 jobs in the next 15 years - was signed off by the Tees Valley Combined Authority in late 2019.

Since the 2021/22 financial accounts were published - where £44m had been drawn down from both loans - a further £19m has been accessed by the airport. The airport spokesman added that, at this stage, loan spending plans remain "broadly within forecast".

"However, if additional funds were required it would be a decision for the Tees Valley Mayor and Cabinet which is made up of the leaders of the five Tees Valley Councils."

[highwideandugly]

It’s taken Private Eye a long time to delve into the airport finances..while not a high brow reputable publication..then again are any these days…it still makes interesting reading!
Worth a look!

[SWBKCB]

It’s taken Private Eye a long time to delve into the airport finances..while not a high brow reputable publication..then again are any these days…it still makes interesting reading!
Worth a look!

Really? Their coverage of Horizon Post Office scandal, for example, was going on for years before anybody else was interested

[highwideandugly]

Today’s project is the long overdue Darlington bypass…£250 million.

[N707ZS]

Has anyone been past and noted how many airbuses have moved to the Southside. Is that to become the new death row?

[P330]

I understood the old runway has been converted into a storage farm and the EasyJets and others will be stored there now there is improved fencing. I could be wrong!

[Bill Darlington]

I understood the old runway has been converted into a storage farm and the EasyJets and others will be stored there now there is improved fencing. I could be wrong!
Not a good look for a struggling airport, is there any sign of building on the south side or has it come to a standstill until unit ,D becomes occupied

[Isaacicm]

Great progress step by step...

[Harold77]

Willis have something like 12-14 aircraft at Teesside occupying many stands. easyJet are disposing of their full A319 fleet over the coming couple of years. Willis has a contract for some of them hence their arrivals and are stripping of parts and will be dismantled. So more space is required, so utilising the disused runway it has allowed more storage space to be created and freeing up operational stand space.

[SWBKCB]

Not a good look for a struggling airport, is there any sign of building on the south side or has it come to a standstill until unit ,D becomes occupied

No activity on the Business Park.

Not sure why storing aircraft is "not a good luck". Money's being made

[Cautious Optimist]

Passengers don't give two hoots about scrap aircraft, in fact it piques the interest of many who enthusiastically enquire about them. At the end of the day, airports are for aviation, you don't get to pick and choose which elements, and many would do well to remember that.

[Bill Darlington]

No activity on the Business Park.

Not sure why storing aircraft is "not a good luck". Money's being made
I just thought a large number of redundant planes makes it look a little like a giant scrapyard, I have never been to an airport and seen a dozen redundant planes, it's good that they are dismantled and recycled, unlike America where they are dumped in the desert

[onion]

I just thought a large number of redundant planes makes it look a little like a giant scrapyard, I have never been to an airport and seen a dozen redundant planes, it's good that they are dismantled and recycled, unlike America where they are dumped in the desert
They aren't dumped in the desert! They are stored there as the climate is conducive for long term storage and once they reach a certain point they are then recycled.

[Bill Darlington]

They aren't dumped in the desert! They are stored there as the climate is conducive for long term storage and once they reach a certain point they are then recycled.
ok didn't know that, good to learn
Thanks

[SWBKCB]

Passengers don't give two hoots about scrap aircraft, in fact it piques the interest of many who enthusiastically enquire about them. At the end of the day, airports are for aviation, you don't get to pick and choose which elements, and many would do well to remember that.

Don't let them see any of those sinister looking jet fighters! :eek:

[Flying Hi]

They aren't dumped in the desert! They are stored there as the climate is conducive for long term storage and once they reach a certain point they are then recycled.
To Global Airlines? ;-)

[highwideandugly]

It’s activity at the end of the day?

However cash wish..apparently..according to all those knowledgeable people..it’s footfall through the terminal(shopping etc) and car parks that’s makes the revenue?…That take time…The product terminal wise..has a long way to go?

[SWBKCB]

It’s activity at the end of the day?

However cash wish..apparently..according to all those knowledgeable people..it’s footfall through the terminal(shopping etc) and car parks that’s makes the revenue?…That take time…The product terminal wise..has a long way to go?

No, it all contributes. Teesside needs contributions from all the different activities. Starting from where they were, passengers is possibly the most difficult nut to crack. A business park with a runway in the middle with passengers through the terminal contributing is fine.

[Grumpy1]

Another of the mayors fireside chat videos dropped on Facebook last night.
Of relevance to the airport, it seems that in addition to the rail station shuttle bus to the terminal, there will also be a shuttle to the South Side Park. Sadly still no announcement of any tenants for the South Side yet.
Of less relevance to the airport, but mentioned on here last week, the new Tees crossing will not be an A19 relief road but will provide a Redcar to Hartlepool link by tunnel or bridge.

[Bill Darlington]

Tees Valley Monitor posted an interesting article today about the airport on their Facebook page

[mmeteesside]

Another of the mayors fireside chat videos dropped on Facebook last night.
Of relevance to the airport, it seems that in addition to the rail station shuttle bus to the terminal, there will also be a shuttle to the South Side Park. Sadly still no announcement of any tenants for the South Side yet.
Of less relevance to the airport, but mentioned on here last week, the new Tees crossing will not be an A19 relief road but will provide a Redcar to Hartlepool link by tunnel or bridge.

Believe they’re still trying to fight for the money for the Flyover relief road but the study into a second crossing will be a separate project…

[David Thompson]

No activity on the Business Park.

Lo and behold , the Mayor has launched his 2024 re-election campaign from said Business Park , from inside a very cold hangar in-fact ;
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24034682.ben-houchen-pledges-new-hospital-re-election-campaign/ .

[N707ZS]

Its not a hangar unfortunately.

[Bill Darlington]

Houchen proposes that he will build a brand new hospital, that will be good news and a big suprise for the NHS.
maybe he can employ his mates
​​​​​

[P330]

Houchen proposes that he will build a brand new hospital, that will be good news and a big suprise for the NHS.
maybe he can employ his mates
​​​​​

With respect, what has this got to do with "Rumoured airlines and routes from/to Teesside". If we're not careful, this thread is going to turn completely into a political side swipe forum akin to the Evening Gazette comments. I can read all the anti-Houchen stuff there!

Can't we keep the conversation on topic?

[highwideandugly]

Will this money pit ever run dry?

Social media starting to wind its self up over Teesworks and its financial concerns again. I’m sure the airport will be mentioned amid the same financial concerns!

[Bill Darlington]

With respect, what has this got to do with "Rumoured airlines and routes from/to Teesside". If we're not careful, this thread is going to turn completely into a political side swipe forum akin to the Evening Gazette comments. I can read all the anti-Houchen stuff there!

Can't we keep the conversation on topic?
Sorry, only because the meeting was at the airport, but back to aviation, I just watched for the first time Kyle travel.... Concorde at Teesside airport, I never knew it had been there, I actually flew om that plane a very long time ago, such an amazing experience, we flew at 2.02 Mach, once in a lifetime

[Flying Hi]

With respect, what has this got to do with "Rumoured airlines and routes from/to Teesside". If we're not careful, this thread is going to turn completely into a political side swipe forum akin to the Evening Gazette comments. I can read all the anti-Houchen stuff there!

Can't we keep the conversation on topic?
Quite so. With all this politicing going on I'm close to the point of unsubscribing from this thread.
Which would be a shame. Back in the 'good old days' of Torrington on Yarm Road I used St George's Hotel prior and post MME-AMS trips so felt a little 'connected' still.

[Grumpy1]

The boundary between political news and only aviation news becomes blurred when the mayors declining reputation and his difficulties with the truth starts impacting on the airport in the same way that it has with the Freeport.
On a more positive note, it looks like the new aircraft painting contract in the two new hangers is eventually going ahead.

[GrahamK]

I do see that KLM E190s are becoming more regular, must be a good sign

[Sharklet_321]

KLM Cityhopper have 48 190’s/195’s versus just 17 170’s. I believe the plan is for 7 of the 170’s to be retired as the new E2’s come in. So you’ll be seeing more and more of the larger variants

[N707ZS]

It sounds like the election sweeteners are coming. What do we think might be announced? Hopefully they might finish the Southside road and pay the farmer for his land.

[SWBKCB]

Tenant for the new hangars - previous resident moving back?

[FlyMME]

Someone jumped the gun today I guess?
Imagine it was meant to be something about the two new hangars?

[highwideandugly]

Rumour is it’s another renaming of the airport..from April the First it will become known as LBHIA…

Lord Ben Houchen International Airport…


Changing all the road signs is causing the delay…

[FlyMME]

Looks like Grumpy1 was correct, new hangar going up for Airborne Colours

[SWBKCB]

That's been the rumour, has it been announced?

[FlyMME]

On our Lord and Saviours Facebook

[SWBKCB]

Thanks - haven't got accerss to that. Good news to have a well established operator in the new hangars - was it Airborne that were in hangar one years ago? Wonder if there will be any impact on Willis's paintshop plans, or will it be mutually beneficial?

[SWBKCB]

A Teessider who founded a world-leading aircraft painting firm is returning to his roots by setting up a new base at Teesside International Airport.

Steve Darbyshire is the founder and Chief Executive of Airbourne Colours – a world-leading company which paints aircraft from around the globe.

Now the 49-year-old’s company has been confirmed as the tenant for a major new hangar under construction at Teesside Airport – with 40 new jobs in the offing

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teessider-returns-to-his-roots-as-his-global-aviation-company-announces-airport-base/

[colinhunn]

Looks like Grumpy1 was correct, new hangar going up for Airborne Colours
Airborne Colours have post on LinkedIn confirming first steelworks in place.

[N707ZS]

Thanks - haven't got accerss to that. Good news to have a well established operator in the new hangars - was it Airborne that were in hangar one years ago? Wonder if there will be any impact on Willis's paintshop plans, or will it be mutually beneficial?
No, it was Sprayavia and they were in hangar 2.

Is this the company that was going to go into the Willis village paint shop? And are they to have both of the new hangars near the station? The Willis hangar the plans restricted working after 11.00pm until 6.00am.

It must be a bonus being a new build hopefully constructed as a paint shop and not a modified hangar.

[SWBKCB]

Thanks for that! There's only one hangar mentioned in the press release. Similarly there is no mention of Willis, so would assume it is seperate (and the Willis paintshop was in one of their later phases).
The new hangar 4 won't be in such close proximity to housing, so may not have the same conditions.

[Bill Darlington]

Interesting question..........how many litres does it take to paint an A380 ?

[Harold77]

950 gallons of paint on a 380

[Bill Darlington]

Good guess....725 gallons. /. 3300 litres

[SWBKCB]

And as MME is unlikely to ever get a 380 capable hangar, an initeresting if pointless diversion....

[Bill Darlington]

It appears that His Lordship and another failed to attend a TVCA overview and scrutiny meeting at the airport on Thursday so the meeting was cancelled as there was not a quorum, he also failed to attend the November meeting, although members stated that it was organised around houchen's calendar, as the person making all the decisions at TIA and trying to make it a success, why not attend meetings

[highwideandugly]

Think we all know why! …
too busy spending a zillion pounds !

[Jamesair1]

Has everyone forgotten? I seem to remember that the opposition Mayoral candidate to Houchen was recorded as being completely against wasting money on saving MME. At least you have an airport to complain about. (I hold no view eitherway).

[Cautious Optimist]

Has everyone forgotten? I seem to remember that the opposition Mayoral candidate to Houchen was recorded as being completely against wasting money on saving MME. At least you have an airport to complain about. (I hold no view eitherway).
They haven't forgotten just several active contributors to this thread are either secretly, publicly or obliviously aligned with said opposition. I am happy for the Mayor to continue "wasting" all the money he wants on the place, as should we all be.

[P330]

Hear Hear

Be careful what you wish for. We have a great little airport that is growing. Move political discussion to a general thread elsewhere.

[onion]

The question that needs answering is - is he actually wasting money on the place? By what measure are you making your decision?
Passenger numbers?
Position against the turn around plan?
Teesside International Airport accounts?
Gooespool 2019 accounts?

All have varying degrees of sucsses and failure at this moment in time!
How long are you prepared to wait to make your decision as well?
The turnaround plan has a time frame, are we willing to let that materialise and then make a decision? Or should we be passing judgement right away?

[SWBKCB]

Surely we can question the way money is being spent (taxpayers money). Anybody believe that £20m on a train station that isn't goig to be needed in the forseeable future? Is the freight centre a good investment?

Clearly there are some good things happening, but some questionable one's as well. As was mentioned earlier, balance.

[Grumpy1]

Our mayor did another piece to camera tonight describing the huge investments going into upgrading the road and rail networks in the region. Interesting stuff if a little confused.
Of relevance to the airport, he still does not appear to be able to say were the new station is going to be located but we are apparently getting driverless trams from the station to the terminal via the business park as it's all on private roads. That will be interesting, especially getting to the south side.
For the first time since last summer that I know of he actually responded a question about the lack of progress at the Willis Village but didn't say much other than that they are consulting and reviewing things.
A very poorly worded question from a numpty apparently about his honesty resulted in an interesting statement that he and his wife can hardly afford to put food on the table!

[highwideandugly]

Slightly off topic..and yes possibly wrong thread..but at least money is being spent at the airport…don’t hear much going on up the road in investment terms!

[Grumpy1]

"don’t hear much going on up the road in investment terms!"
They have already had their investment into a very regular Metro service that runs into the terminal.

[onion]

"don’t hear much going on up the road in investment terms!"
They have already had their investment into a very regular Metro service that runs into the terminal.
Argument would be that for another £200m Teesside could get alot more as well!

[Bill Darlington]

£20 million on a rail terminal at the airport is sheer madness, TIA has a perfectly good car park right Infront of the terminal yielding excellent revenue, why shoot yourself in the foot.....and a tram system without tracks, surely that's a bus, and many other schemes all delivered within two years, while a government official stated that this £1 bn will only be released in 2027,

[highwideandugly]

Hope no one planning on going to Amsterdam in the next couple of days..all flights are cancelled!

KLM everywhere seems to shut down these days as soon as they can find an excuse!

[Bill Darlington]

Due to very cold weather and a lack of enough de icing facilities

[P330]

Hope no one planning on going to Amsterdam in the next couple of days..all flights are cancelled!

KLM everywhere seems to shut down these days as soon as they can find an excuse!

Is your latest theory that KLM, a commercial organisation, shuts down as soon as it can find an excuse?

I know there are no facts to back this up, but I stand to be corrected and apologise in advance if there are.

[highwideandugly]

I think if you go back just a couple of years..KLM were one of the airlines you could rely on..I would suggest..not so much these days!

Having said that a lot of flights were cancelled UK wide earlier today…all of a sudden they appear to be operating again ! over reaction maybe?

[Markushillman]

My friends were on the Alicante flight yesterday outbound and said there weren't many pax on probably about 1/3 full or 70ish pax. I know it's January but would of thought a few more pax, I noticed your Alicante flights are 3x weekly in the winter and 2x weekly in the Summer you would of thought it was the other way around.

[pug]

£20 million on a rail terminal at the airport is sheer madness, TIA has a perfectly good car park right Infront of the terminal yielding excellent revenue, why shoot yourself in the foot.....and a tram system without tracks, surely that's a bus, and many other schemes all delivered within two years, while a government official stated that this £1 bn will only be released in 2027,

If this goes ahead he will be opening himself to being dragged over the coals should Labour be successful in the next GE. Such spending is still subject to Central Government oversight to ensure local Mayors aren’t just giving out lucrative contracts to mates and basically squandering public money on vanity projects that have no potential for return or economic regeneration. BH is quite clearly part of the in crowd at Westminster currently, but these things when they change, they change very quickly.

With this in mind I hope that whatever has been going on behind the scenes at MME really does mean it can become self sufficient in the not too distant future..

[Harold77]

November CAA stats.

Terminal Passengers 13,609
Aircraft Movements 1,560

[Bill Darlington]

My friends were on the Alicante flight yesterday outbound and said there weren't many pax on probably about 1/3 full or 70ish pax. I know it's January but would of thought a few more pax, I noticed your Alicante flights are 3x weekly in the winter and 2x weekly in the Summer you would of thought it was the other way around.
Cost of living crisis is biting hard !!

[mmeman]

Eastern advertising for cabin crew to be based in Teesside...

[RA85684]

Aye, it sounds like a couple of their darts have landed at Middleton St George, again.

Bets on routes? Is it gonna be Jetstreams to Aberdeen and Belfast? ATR’s to London and Paris? Or E190’s to the beach? Or a combination of all of the above.

Will Loganair step up? Will it last more than 5 minutes?

Who knows, but it’s exciting…

[Markushillman]

Eastern advertising for cabin crew to be based in Teesside...

Where did you see that advertised out of interest?

[Cautious Optimist]

At least it shows there's no ill will

[Harold77]

Where did you see that advertised out of interest?

Eastern have put post on their Facebook account advertising jobs to be based at Teesside.

[FlyMME]

According to the ever excellent DTVMovements, this is just Eastern operating the Amsterdam service on behalf of KLM during the Summer whilst they are suffering from aircraft shortages.

So good news for the reliability of that service, but nothing to be too excited about..

[Albert Hall]

Were you being sarcastic with the "good news for the reliability of that service" comment?

[Markushillman]

According to the ever excellent DTVMovements, this is just Eastern operating the Amsterdam service on behalf of KLM during the Summer whilst they are suffering from aircraft shortages.

So good news for the reliability of that service, but nothing to be too excited about..

Yes correct @SeanM1997 on twitter has stated Eastern to operate on behalf of KLM both from Humberside and Teeside. Both operating 8 sector days. Not sure Eastern and reliability go hand in hand but we shall see

[Cautious Optimist]

An eight sector day = one extra rotation doesn't it?

[Markushillman]

An eight sector day = one extra rotation doesn't it?

Well klm booking system only showing x2 daily flights for a random week in July, so would only be 4 sector's used

[highwideandugly]

So Amsterdam reduced to two returns(larger aircraft) and two Aberdeen returns ?

Goodbye Loganair!

[SWBKCB]

Or they do other KLM sectors between MME and HUY flts

[highwideandugly]

Good point..Leeds..Inverness..Norwich spring to mind ?

[Markushillman]

I should say Amsterdam seems to be reduced to x2 daily during just July and August, otherwise its 3x daily for the remaining summer season months

Teesside - Amsterdam
​​​​​​06:20 - 08:40
09:55 - 12:10

Amsterdam - Teesside
09:15 - 09:25
21:35 - 21:45

Id suggest that with this deal the 3rd daily will come back and a rotation somewhere else (from Amsterdam). Or you will go 4x daily like cities such as Norwich have during the Summer. As those times aren't very crew friendly.

[Cautious Optimist]

So Amsterdam reduced to two returns(larger aircraft) and two Aberdeen returns ?

Goodbye Loganair!
Aberdeen has nothing to do with anything?

[highwideandugly]

Aberdeen..not yet!

[Harold77]

I should say Amsterdam seems to be reduced to x2 daily during just July and August, otherwise its 3x daily for the remaining summer season months

Teesside - Amsterdam
​​​​​​06:20 - 08:40
09:55 - 12:10

Amsterdam - Teesside
09:15 - 09:25
21:35 - 21:45

Id suggest that with this deal the 3rd daily will come back and a rotation somewhere else (from Amsterdam). Or you will go 4x daily like cities such as Norwich have during the Summer. As those times aren't very crew friendly.

Will this be the son of Concorde 10mins AMS-MME. WOW

[onion]

Will this be the son of Concorde 10mins AMS-MME. WOW
Guessing they are local times!

[Markushillman]

Will this be the son of Concorde 10mins AMS-MME. WOW

Haha, think the old time difference is at play here 😉

[pug]

Aberdeen..not yet!

I would hope that KLM have specified that the aircraft and crew are used solely for services on behalf of KLM. Otherwise you will see random charters in the middle of the schedule, with the inevitable tech issue out of the network and ensuing reduction in reliability. Hope this is not a bad sign regarding the longevity of KLM at MME and HUY..

[mmeteesside]

I should say Amsterdam seems to be reduced to x2 daily during just July and August, otherwise its 3x daily for the remaining summer season months

Teesside - Amsterdam
​​​​​​06:20 - 08:40
09:55 - 12:10

Amsterdam - Teesside
09:15 - 09:25
21:35 - 21:45

Id suggest that with this deal the 3rd daily will come back and a rotation somewhere else (from Amsterdam). Or you will go 4x daily like cities such as Norwich have during the Summer. As those times aren't very crew friendly.

Even at the current times 3x daily I’d guess you require 3 sets of crew (changing at 0930 and 1700)? Unless your middle rotation was somewhere nearby like NCL or LBA and you could swap there? Would that be doable in duty periods or would they still need a hotel, in which case it really makes no difference where your night stop is…

[N707ZS]

German Airways and at least Transavia have been operating many other KLM flights for months. But not into Teesside.

[Markushillman]

Even at the current times 3x daily I’d guess you require 3 sets of crew (changing at 0930 and 1700)? Unless your middle rotation was somewhere nearby like NCL or LBA and you could swap there? Would that be doable in duty periods or would they still need a hotel, in which case it really makes no difference where your night stop is…

Most likely

MME-AMS
​​​​​AMS-MME
MME-AMS
AMS -MME

Crew change around 1-2pm back at MME

MME - AMS
AMS - ?
? - AMS
AMS - MME

I work in airline ops doing schedules, so that's how my brain would work it. But this is Eastern so could be anything

[mmeteesside]

Most likely

MME-AMS
​​​​​AMS-MME
MME-AMS
AMS -MME

Crew change around 1-2pm back at MME

MME - AMS
AMS - ?
? - AMS
AMS - MME

I work in airline ops doing schedules, so that's how my brain would work it. But this is Eastern so could be anything

That’s the way I would work it too but would they want to swap the 5pm departure for a lunchtime one? Time will tell I guess!

[Markushillman]

That’s the way I would work it too but would they want to swap the 5pm departure for a lunchtime one? Time will tell I guess!

possibly not but with my local NWI the 4x daily summer schedule would fit in perfectly with that, the question mark being MME and the 4-5pm evening rotation

[SWBKCB]

KLM will know their UK regional routes like the back of their hand. Doubt they'll be adjusting their scheduling to suit Eastern's crewing needs.

[Grumpy1]

They started to interview candidates living close to MME about a month ago so that may give a clue.

[BristolexFlyer]

8 sectors a day, I suspect along the lines of what KLM used to do at HUY with the F100 at one point.

HUY-AMS AMS-HUY
HUY-AMS AMS-HUY
HUY-AMS AMS-STN
STN-AMS AMS-HUY

Same theory for the HUY based a/c.

Kind regards

BristolexFlyer

[N707ZS]

They started to interview candidates living close to MME about a month ago so that may give a clue.
Were the jobs advertised as temporary?

[Diff Tail Shim]

So Amsterdam reduced to two returns(larger aircraft) and two Aberdeen returns ?

Goodbye Loganair!
I think not.. 🤔

[P330]

I don't believe there is any impact on Aberdeen at all here. As far as I can see, that remains with Loganair and no suggestion that Eastern will join in,

However, if I can contribute to the rumour mill with a thought....I would bet the powers that be are desperate to try and get a Malaga rotation in on a weekend whilst the MME based aircraft is a little quieter for S24! Maybe a possibility until the Ryanair eventually lands....

[SWBKCB]

Which will depend on the terms of their contract with KLM - do they want the a/c going off on private ventures? Given Easterns record of prioritising charters over flying for others, you'd think not but the German Awys E190's have done so.

[Markushillman]

Credit to @@SeanM1997 on X

KLM S24 (non peak summer) - up to daily flights:

Aberdeen -5
Belfast City -1
Birmingham -5
Bristol -4
Cardiff -3
Edinburgh -5
Glasgow -5
Humberside -3
Inverness -2
Leeds -3
London City -9
London Heathrow -8
Manchester -6
Newcastle -5
Norwich -4
Southampton -3
Teesside -3

STC

[mmeman]

Looks like the KLM booking engine is in the process of being updated - all flights from April 2024 showing as an Embraer 190, reamining 3 daily during the week but an extra flight from Amsterdam on a Saturday night, and an extra one to Amsterdam on a Sunday morning.

[P330]

Going to be interesting to see how reliable and resilient this service is. Eastern aren’t known for their service and punctuality, but wonder if this will be different given it’s a KLM plan?

If HUY are also on the 190 that’s both of their 190s occupied all week with limited downtime.

Fingers crossed it works!

My earlier Malaga suggestion feels far less of a prospect this morning.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Going to be interesting to see how reliable and resilient this service is. Eastern aren’t known for their service and punctuality, but wonder if this will be different given it’s a KLM plan?

If HUY are also on the 190 that’s both of their 190s occupied all week with limited downtime.

Fingers crossed it works!

My earlier Malaga suggestion feels far less of a prospect this morning.

Judging by their performance on the ORY routes, it’s not looking good. I’d expect cancellations aplenty. KLM must be desperate getting into bed with Eastern.

[pug]

Judging by their performance on the ORY routes, it’s not looking good. I’d expect cancellations aplenty. KLM must be desperate getting into bed with Eastern.

In fairness there is a distinct difference. The ORY routes were operated as a franchise agreement where demand was questionable. This is being operated on established routes as a wet lease on behalf of KLM so will be subject to - I would hope - more robust service level agreements. It could work out to offer some stability to Eastern and potentially lucrative if they manage to honour the agreement properly, I just hope for the routes sake it is only temporary!

[N707ZS]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/hangar_4_aee5e08c7aa543e95172c2d3eb3954543967a4b6.jpg
All the plans show a two bay hangar but so far only one has appeared.

[SWBKCB]

Is that the one for Airborne Colours?

[FlyMME]

I think Houchen replied to a comment on his Facebook stating only 1 hangar was required at the moment.

[SWBKCB]

Looks a bit small? Would you get a 737/320 in there?

[N707ZS]

Thats what we have been told in the media. And it seems buried in soil.

A search of the plans came up with this.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x717/hangars_b2eda0fcb2b30d8c53fdc9d59593d0685afbab10.jpg

[Bill Darlington]

Yes it's for airborne ,they say they will be open on 1st September
Houchen said nothing about a second hanger ,

[N707ZS]

On the subject of hangars. Perhaps the money saved on not building the second hangar could be spent on GA as promised.
Airport bosses urged to act on 'promise' and offer new base to evicted aircraft owners - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airport-bosses-urged-act-promise-28455971)

[SWBKCB]

On the subject of hangars. Perhaps the money saved on not building the second hangar could be spent on GA as promised.
Airport bosses urged to act on 'promise' and offer new base to evicted aircraft owners - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airport-bosses-urged-act-promise-28455971)

Aren't these new hangars taxpayer funded? As such I'd thought they'd need to be supported by a business case to promote investment and jobs.

[Grumpy1]

But there are no votes in building a GA hanger as it's not sexy like constantly inventing high quality jobs or telling your supporters that you are bringing back steel making in a furnace that cant actually make steel! Sure the driverless busses, sorry trams, will be vote winners however.

[highwideandugly]

And a train station for 13 people per year. £20 million is it?

[Flying Hi]

And a train station for 13 people per year. £20 million is it?
Maybe they're reckoning on some of the business park workforce using bike and train?

[SWBKCB]

Maybe they're reckoning on some of the business park workforce using bike and train?

It'd be cheaper to buy them all a car...

[Flying Hi]

It'd be cheaper to buy them all a car...
Nissam of course.:zzz:

[P330]

Some pretty shocking journalism here. I’ll let you make your own judgements.


https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24062727.eastern-airways-hints-arrival-teesside-airport/

[N707ZS]

I just hope we don't get an announcement saying new flights to Amsterdam.

[Harold77]

And a train station for 13 people per year. £20 million is it?

With one parliamentary train service a week on a Sunday morning for at least three decades, it isn't a surprise that numbers were only a handful.

[SWBKCB]

With one parliamentary train service a week on a Sunday morning for at least three decades, it isn't a surprise that numbers were only a handful.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The reason there was one parliamentary train a week was because there was no demand.

[N707ZS]

The bridge being condemned didn't help either.

[Bill Darlington]

Seems like the aero club is unlikely to get their promise hangar unless they fork out £1 million, Houchen has offered all sorts of excuses including planning, this article is worth a read, especially about a call from Houchen to Heathrow
https://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.co.uk/news/20163072.teesside-aircraft-owners-thrown-hangar-3/

[N707ZS]

Bill, its the private owners not the aero club or any flying school.

[Bill Darlington]

Bill, its the private owners not the aero club or any flying school.
I assumed it was a club, as they are all like-minded owners
Anyway I wish them well with their quest against Houchen

[highwideandugly]

Anyone have the railway station figures during the boom years 2003/2008 ish..Nearly a million passengers…so how well did it do then..a time when people maybe found it necessary to catch a train more than today?

Me thinks..not very good!

[Cautious Optimist]

The parliamentary service predates the boom years so same as now

[SWBKCB]

The parliamentary service predates the boom years so same as now

Is that right? When did the shuttle bus go?

[Cautious Optimist]

I stand to be corrected but there's never been any more than one train per week each way in the 20 years I've been involved, and I think the shuttle bus was gone way before that

[N707ZS]

1980s before the Conservatives privatised the railways. After then they wanted to reduce the time it took to get to Darlington, so cut services along the line. For my first job at the airport it was handy on days when the weather was no good for cycling, or I couldn't borrow my mothers car.

[Grumpy1]

When the airport station opened there was a thirty minute frequency in each direction. In those days the service was reliable with cancellations unusual unlike today and there was an electric milk float with a passenger cabin that connected with every train but sadly not many passengers. The railway operator was preasured to speed up the service between Darlington and Middlesbrough so the underused station at the airport had the service cut.
Mr Houchen is telling his disciples that a train stopping will add less than a minute to the timetable but this is noncence as a railway working timetable shows several minutes for deceleration, station dwell and acceleration so you can anticipate resistance from the railway to stopping trains unless there are lots of passengers for all of those extra flights that certain politicians and members of this group seem to like inventing.

[tigertanaka]

Trying to keep the politics out of this but here are a few points with regards to the airport railway station

The wind-down of the station must have happened sometime before summer 1996 (the June 1996 timetable shows 1 train a day stopping at the airport). Station usage data published by Office of Rail and Road (ORR), goes back to 1997-98 and Teesside Airport station has not been used significantly at any point since then (low of 2 passengers in 2022-23, high of 338 in 2019-20). Whatever the situation, usage of the station was minimal even in the airport's peak passenger years of 2000-2008.
The line does not appear to be well used anyway. There are 17 stations on the Tees Valley line which together serve 5.6m passenger trips a year (although not all these people are using the Tees Valley line itself). However, this is hugely skewed by stations with fast links to big cities (ie Darlington, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby & Middlesbrough) but places like Shildon, Newton Aycliffe, Heighington, North Road, Dinsdale, Allens West, South Bank, Redcar East, Longbeck & Marske together average 160 passengers a day each. Clearly the Mayor needs to get more people using the line but with only 2 trains an hour running between Darlington & Middlesbrough, there is not the convenience of a urban metro like we would see in places like Newcastle or Manchester and this must reduce demand.
The Darlington station redevelopment will hugely increase capacity on the line as local trains will be able to run east of Darlington without having to cross the East Coast mainline. The mayor is saying that when the new platform at Darlington is finished, they can run trains every 5 minutes on the line. One might question the demand for 12 trains an hour but when this work is complete, the plan is clearly to run a more regular timetable. This means that stopping at Teesside Airport (and a future Teesside Park station) will not be such a major issue. Furthermore, all trains do not necessarily need to stop at all stations along the line.
Presumably the future station usage is a combination of airport passengers and people who work on the airport site?
The cost of refurbishing the station was only £6m in 2020. Link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-51340195) Presumably this was cancelled due to COVID?
Finally, given that Network rail are responsible for Teesside Airport station, and that a lot of the issues appear to come from a lack of maintenance - why is the mayor coughing up £20m out of his budget to bring it back into usage? Shouldn't some of this come from Network Rail?

[Grumpy1]

"The mayor is saying that when the new platform at Darlington is finished, they can run trains every 5 minutes on the line"

Dont fall into the trap believing the fairy stories that the mayor makes up. The branch line from Darlington to Middlesbrough, Saltburn, Hartlepool and beyond is not signalled for a service with a five minute headway. The sections from passed the airport to South Bank and Hartlepool have recently been resignalled for the current frequency of trains with an increase of frequency through Hartlepool and paths for freight trains in between as required and works are in hand to resignal South Bank to Saltburn in the near future with no planned increase in train frequency. The life expectancy of the new signalling is upto 50 years.
Further, trains heading to Bishop Auckland will still have to cross the main line at Darlington unless the service is reduced to a basic shuttle to and from Darlington but the mayor is refusing to clarify.

[tigertanaka]

"The mayor is saying that when the new platform at Darlington is finished, they can run trains every 5 minutes on the line"

Dont fall into the trap believing the fairy stories that the mayor makes up. The branch line from Darlington to Middlesbrough, Saltburn, Hartlepool and beyond is not signalled for a service with a five minute headway. The sections from passed the airport to South Bank and Hartlepool have recently been resignalled for the current frequency of trains with an increase of frequency through Hartlepool and paths for freight trains in between as required and works are in hand to resignal South Bank to Saltburn in the near future with no planned increase in train frequency. The life expectancy of the new signalling is upto 50 years.
Further, trains heading to Bishop Auckland will still have to cross the main line at Darlington unless the service is reduced to a basic shuttle to and from Darlington but the mayor is refusing to clarify.

Please do not patronise me like that - at no point did I say I believed what the mayor said, it was clear that I was merely quoting him and also clear that the extra platform at Darlington would benefit the route to the east of the town.

As you appear to have some expertise in this area, perhaps you could share your knowledge and help us all understand that the frequency per hour could be east of Darlington given the signalling (and any other) constraints.

[Harold77]

Train paths:

Middlesbrough/ Eaglescliffe to Hartlepool every 3 mins
Hartlepool to Sunderland every 6 mins
Sunderland to Newcastle every 2 mins

Saltburn to Redcar every 6 mins
Redcar to Eaglescliffe every 3 mins
Eaglescliffe to Darlo every 4 mins

Northallerton to Eaglescliffe every 8-9 mins

A lot of the area it can be seen to run signal to signal with trains. Only thing that really hinders capacity are level crossings.

[Grumpy1]

Appologies to tigertanka. Wasnt intending to patronised you or accuse you of believing the mayor. A figure of speech.

Harold makes the point. A five minute scheduled headway is not possible given that we have flat or level junctions, and if you factor in overlap time at junctions especialy if trains have different performance and some have intermediate stops not to mention recovery time.
The Tyne Wear Metro can achieve a six minute headway in the rush hour with signaling that does not have to accommodate slow heavy freight trains.

[Bill Darlington]

The mayor's proposed rail link would cost billions, Birmingham spent £1 billion on just 11 miles and their super efficient service is every 10 minutes.

[HH6702]

Believe the plan is bishop trains to Darlington only apart from maybe early morning late evening and the saltburn will be the same. That way more trains can run on the mainline.

plan is also the same at Newcastle station with northern nothing will run via all stopping
Hexham to Middlesbrough will be change trains and again the Morpeth’s

[highwideandugly]

Again in English please?

[Wallsendmag]

Believe the plan is bishop trains to Darlington only apart from maybe early morning late evening and the saltburn will be the same. That way more trains can run on the mainline.

plan is also the same at Newcastle station with northern nothing will run via all stopping
Hexham to Middlesbrough will be change trains and again the Morpeth’s
Makes no sense for so many reasons. You are aware of the new platforms coming to Darlington?

[highwideandugly]

Gosh it’s hard to keep up with events!

So the latest is regular cargo flights because of the Red Sea blockades and best one..a potential/possible/maybe runway extension…

Watch this space!

[Bill Darlington]

Gosh it’s hard to keep up with events!

So the latest is regular cargo flights because of the Red Sea blockades and best one..a potential/possible/maybe runway extension…

Watch this space!
Maybe the runway extension has a. U bend

[N707ZS]

This is the source of wonder.
Teesside Airport cargo operations could be 'more important than ever' during Red Sea crisis - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-cargo-operations-could-28495390)

[ATNotts]

This is the source of wonder.
Teesside Airport cargo operations could be 'more important than ever' during Red Sea crisis - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-cargo-operations-could-28495390)
Good grief!!

Don't you love Reach rags.

[Flying Hi]

Good photo of airport 'Departures' entrance showing MMEs daily passenger rush.

[Bill Darlington]

This is the source of wonder.
Teesside Airport cargo operations could be 'more important than ever' during Red Sea crisis - Teesside Live (gazettelive.co.uk) (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-airport-cargo-operations-could-28495390)
Mr. Land, clearly needs some help !???

[Grumpy1]

Going to the local tame press with a none story like that has a feel of desperation. Last year it was being leaked that regular freight operations were imminent but that didnt happen.

[SWBKCB]

It was an airport consultative committee that was being reported on

[ATNotts]

It was an airport consultative committee that was being reported on
A couple of questions then.

First, does the airport have a handling agent able, or more importantly willing, to invest in staff to facilitate dealing with these ad hoc large cargo aircraft?

Second, does the airport (or indeed the handling agent) have equipment capable of unloading and loading wide body maindeck freighters?

[Asturias56]

It was an airport consultative committee that was being reported on

true but its only recently that the media has become exercised by STORMS - in the past it often blew hard in the NE and no-one bothered

[oldart]

A couple of questions then.

First, does the airport have a handling agent able, or more importantly willing, to invest in staff to facilitate dealing with these ad hoc large cargo aircraft?

Second, does the airport (or indeed the handling agent) have equipment capable of unloading and loading wide body maindeck freighters?
They did until Peel took it away to use at Doncaster Airport, where it's at now I have no idea.

[ATNotts]

They did until Peel took it away to use at Doncaster Airport, where it's at now I have no idea.

I guess they've flogged it off. I think I'm correct in saying Swissport at BHX acquired one comparatively recently?

[highwideandugly]

Think Newcastle recently acquired one?

This consultative committee must have been interesting!
So if the runway is extended..it will be for freight only…sorry passenger flights..you will have to use reduced distances 🤪

[Harold77]

Think what is being said is if it was for passenger only operations the case doesn't stack up, but would work for cargo operations. But once built then all operations will be accepted as it is there.

[highwideandugly]

Yep..guessed that!

[SWBKCB]

Extended runway? That will confuse the Lordships FB followers who already think it's the longest runway in the country...

Again, love to see the business case. Maybe the money would be bettter spent on improving the taxiway PCN's.

[Harold77]

Think you'll find its the DSA worshippers that deem they have longest runway in the country because it was designated space shuttle emergency landing site.

[SWBKCB]

Nope - definetely the Mayors FB page

[jmdavies86]

Think you'll find its the DSA worshippers that deem they have longest runway in the country because it was designated space shuttle emergency landing site.

I thought Manston held both of these titles, no...?!

[N707ZS]

Mayors mates would build half the extension and declare it open. The farmer on the 23 end was approached about a bit of land near the undershoot.

[pug]

Think you'll find its the DSA worshippers that deem they have longest runway in the country because it was designated space shuttle emergency landing site.

Even then that’s only according to Wikipedia. The only official abort landing site cited in any NASA documents was RAF Fairford. Just a wild rumour. Based on the specifications as outlined by NASA, the Shuttle required 12000ft of paved runway for an emergency landing, Fairford was in fact the exception to that rule being only 10,000ft. But I believe this is because of a lack of other suitable options in the U.K. and probably because they had a US presence on site who were trained to deal with such an eventuality.

RAF Finningley was never considered as a Space Shuttle emergency landing site.

[Bill Darlington]

After the massive expansion of the air cargo hub, and the extended runway, there will probably be a announcement of a new low cost carrier... called.
. Houchenair. !?

[N707ZS]

It looks as if the new hangar is only going to be full height at the front door / tail area end.

[N707ZS]

Could it be big reveal day with Mr Willis, Sunak and possibly Mayor Ben floating around.

[Bill Darlington]

Houchen stated that Airborne Colours has a £10 million turnover,150 employees, ....Pomanda, a company information platform,states the turnover was £3.6 million last year. (with no profits) and just 34 employees .
Houchen further stated that the new hangar would bring 40 jobs, whereas Airborne uses just 17 per painting hangar, he also stated that it would bring £6.5 m investment, by which he means that TIA has forked out that amount to entice a new tenant
The posted photo of the hangar previously looks too small and the wrong shape for an a320 it should be around 170 by 170 ft...

[SWBKCB]

See the plans linked below - door opening 42m, A320 with with winglets 40m, B737MAX 36m

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/0D674F9841093E27479CB1EC671B2F2A/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PROPOSED_ELEVATIONS-1988998.pdf

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/265F22FC2E4F692D975750DAF06AB08F/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PR_HANGAR_GA_PLAN-1996563.pdf (https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/0D674F9841093E27479CB1EC671B2F2A/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PROPOSED_ELEVATIONS-1988998.pdf)

[Bill Darlington]

See the plans linked below - door opening 42m, A320 with with winglets 40m, B737MAX 36m

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/0D674F9841093E27479CB1EC671B2F2A/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PROPOSED_ELEVATIONS-1988998.pdf

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/265F22FC2E4F692D975750DAF06AB08F/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PR_HANGAR_GA_PLAN-1996563.pdf (https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/files/0D674F9841093E27479CB1EC671B2F2A/pdf/23_00694_FUL-PROPOSED_ELEVATIONS-1988998.pdf)
I could not open the docs, just said unavailable
So what are the dimensions of the building supposed to be,

[SWBKCB]

See the site local plan (first document) and the proposed elevations doc (bottom of the page)

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RXQOB5FPIZG00

[teej013]

Could it be big reveal day with Mr Willis, Sunak and possibly Mayor Ben floating around.

BBC Parliament channel says that there will be a Statement in the House today at 17:00, (Ish), on the Teesworks Report that is due to be released today.

[Bill Darlington]

See the site local plan (first document) and the proposed elevations doc (bottom of the page)

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RXQOB5FPIZG00
Yes got it, great many thanks
Cosy fit for an airbus

[Bill Darlington]

BBC Parliament channel says that there will be a Statement in the House today at 17:00, (Ish), on the Teesworks Report that is due to be released today.
Bring out the white wash paint

[Jamesair1]

Not much point to 'Statements to the House' if you believe that they are all (Labour and Tory) a whitewash.

[Grumpy1]

I think that it is wise to await the report before passing judgement. Unfortunately, many (perhaps most) have witnessed what Lord Ben has done at Teesworks and the airport with his resistance to scrutiny so will conclude that there has been a whitewash and he will forever be tarred with the dodgy brush regardless of what the report says. He could have probably avoided the allegations and the brown envelope innuendos if had not resisted the investigations by Private Eye the FT and Yorkshire Post etc. Sadly, his reputation, deserved or not, impacts on our airport.

[P330]

Isn’t it the modern world that when presented with something official, such as a report, a court ruling or whatever….if it doesn’t agree with our narrative we say it’s a white wash, a lie or fake news.

Really saddens me.

If Mr Trump is to be believed, every allegation and court finding against him is fake.

Questions needed to be asked, Ben didn’t help himself, but now we have the answers.

Move on or become part of the anti-expert, post-truth garbage that is blighting society…

[teej013]

Anyone wishing to read the report in full can download it from:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture

With an Executive Summary here :

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture-executive-summary-and-recommendations

[flybar]

Anyone wishing to read the report in full can download it from:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture

With an Executive Summary here :

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture/independent-review-report-south-tees-development-corporation-and-teesworks-joint-venture-executive-summary-and-recommendations
The reports 28 recommendations are all critical of the current setup so how anybody can suggest that the report clears the Mayor and his cronies is not reading it fully.

[N707ZS]

See the site local plan (first document) and the proposed elevations doc (bottom of the page)

https://publicaccess.darlington.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=RXQOB5FPIZG00

Thats not what the are building in shape or size. I see the parking area is reduced and the old cargo building is not being demolished after they evicted the tenants.

[P330]

The reports 28 recommendations are all critical of the current setup so how anybody can suggest that the report clears the Mayor and his cronies is not reading it fully.

Exactly, this is everything but a whitewash. Really interesting reading. No illegality but lots of transparency improvements needed.

[Grumpy1]

The 28 critical recommendations in the report certainly do not clear the mayor and highlight the lack of transparency but sadly that is not how he is selling it to his supporters. This was a great opportunity for him to eat some humble pie and admit to mistakes but he is in danger of missing that opportunity.
On TV interviews tonight he did admit to what I think we all knew, that his reputation had caused businesses that did not want to be associated with the questionable TVCA to go elsewhere or postpone making commitments and this may well also explain the lack of progress at the airport. Hope he takes wise council.

[SWBKCB]

Isn’t it the modern world that when presented with something official, such as a report, a court ruling or whatever….if it doesn’t agree with our narrative we say it’s a white wash, a lie or fake news.

Maybe that reflects some of the rubbish that comes from official sources

Exactly, this is everything but a whitewash. Really interesting reading. No illegality but lots of transparency improvements needed.

At the risk dragging us very off topic, I've read a lot of reports and this is very cagey wording.

1.7. The review Panel has now completed its work within the scope of the terms of reference. Based on the information shared with the Panel, we have found no evidence to support allegations of corruption or illegality.

[flybar]

Exactly, this is everything but a whitewash. Really interesting reading. No illegality but lots of transparency improvements needed.
I think if we get a change of government the 28 recommendations will be enforced.

[Bill Darlington]

The 28 critical recommendations in the report certainly do not clear the mayor and highlight the lack of transparency but sadly that is not how he is selling it to his supporters. This was a great opportunity for him to eat some humble pie and admit to mistakes but he is in danger of missing that opportunity.
On TV interviews tonight he did admit to what I think we all knew, that his reputation had caused businesses that did not want to be associated with the questionable TVCA to go elsewhere or postpone making commitments and this may well also explain the lack of progress at the airport. Hope he takes wise council.
Grumpy is right, Houchen will use any angle to justify his position, but 28 recommendations tells it's own story.
There will be even less companies wanting to be associated with his style of business after this, and not good news for the airport, will he now go on a huge PR exercise to repair his reputation, we'll see

[onion]

:zzz: Really can't fathom people out.
The report is quite clear they found no evidence of illegality or corruption which is what was leveled at the Mayor and his department.
Yes there are recommendations on how to improve and hopefully get an even better deal for the taxpayer!
Gove has already asked for a response from the Mayor on how he intends to action these recommendations.

The issue now for those who are dead against the mayor is they now have to find something else to pick apart.... so the recommendations become an issue.
The fact is he was transparent when needed in this, true he and his department should be more transparent but he and his departments have been found to have done no wrong! And recommendations are only that. He would be a fool not to implement them to hopefully stop another witch hunt!
I'm more interested in what his accusers have to say? Where was their evidence? Parliamentary privilege is something to be cherished but only when used correctly!
We are unlikely to know if his accusers ever had strong evidence.... or if it was just an opportunity to try and discredit someone.... throw enough mud and some will stick.

I would of been surprised if there hadn't been any recommendations. We learn from things like this. To be honest several of the points in the recommendations aren't even leveled at the mayor. They are at individuals (which could include the mayor).
Others are at the constitutions of the entities involved.

Hopefully the recommendations are implemented.... i then await the next stage of the witch hunt!

[highwideandugly]

I think as much as anything it’s the lack of transparency in airport financial affairs..well documented on this thread.
A reluctance by the mayor to be upfront at all times…charitable foundation anyone?
This seems to be similarly murky with Teesworks finances.

Will it have any influence on airport development..who knows.Much anticipated new holiday flights were to be announced this year..but weren’t.
Worth bearing in mind Ryanair pulled out because of the fuss over airport departure tax…will this bad/good recent press have a similar effect..?
Time will tell..guess the outcome yesterday will rumble on until absolute clarity..probably in the form of an NAO investigation is complete.
Either that or a Labour government starts asking pertinent questions?

[Jamesair1]

I hope all this business gets sorted out to everyones satisfaction, of course, if the opposing anti-airport Mayoral candidate had won, there would now be no airport and no Teesside thread to debate on.

[Grumpy1]

The criticisms of the mayor were raised and have been repeated many times by the Private Eye and the Financial Times plus several others and related to poor desision making, transparency and governance. A daft labour MP then used parliamentary privilege to make a silly claim and this allowed the mayor to deflect attention to him and ignore the more substantive criticisms that investors will see.
The 28 recommendations in the report largely validate the criticisms but again attention has been deflected to what the MP said rather that acknowledging the errors and short comings.
Mr Houchen has now admitted that the criticisms of his conduct have caused businesses to avoid the Tees Valley and this has surely impacted on our airport.
The national press and TV news chanels are highlighting the 28 recommendations and this is what those with the cheque books will see.
It's not and never has been a witch hunt but there needs to he a response to the report that persuades future potential investors in Teesworks and the Airport that Mr Houchen can be trusted afterall especialy if Labour win the next election and the magic money tree dries up.

[SWBKCB]

Agreed - the headline is "no corruption" but the length of the list of the recommendations and the wording used in the summary is telling. I haven't looked at the full report, but reportedly that is even more damning.

[SWBKCB]

I hope all this business gets sorted out to everyones satisfaction, of course, if the opposing anti-airport Mayoral candidate had won, there would now be no airport and no Teesside thread to debate on.

Allegedly...

[Bill Darlington]

The list of Recommendations were probably long so as to put you off reading the whole report, I've read the report and it paints a very different picture, it clearly shows Houchen's attitude to running the TVCA, which was dictatorial, lack of consultation and very dysfunctional, sure there is no hint of corruption, but the report is an eye opener, this will likely have a long term effect, his fans see this report as being a victory for the mayor but his critics are now further convinced that he is the villain, so that's were we are. !

[highwideandugly]

Big advertising write up in the Echo, promoting the South Side Business Park and extolling the benefits of moving there.

Anyone know how many companies have moved in so far..and more to the point for the airport..aviation related?

[N707ZS]

None and none. The road isn't even finished. No sign of it in my Echo.

[highwideandugly]

It’s on the Ben media site..Facebook!

[Bill Darlington]

TIA have appointed two agents, both show it's still available and that the warehouse can be split into two halves, and in the first phase there will be 4 units, thereafter land will be available for lease for clients to build their own warehouse, it's interesting that the road isn't finished, is it still be worked on and is there anything going on at the warehouse area ?

[Grumpy1]

The sheds started to be offered for sale or rent a couple of years ago. The contractors pulled off the incomplete site before Christmas and the foreman told the farmer and the regulars down there that the plan was to only build more units when tenants or owners came forward. No obvious activity currently although Lord H promised the first tennant early in the new year. As of a fortnight ago the farmer had still not been paid.
The site over the road opposite the hems base was occupied as soon as the units were completed which must be worrying.
Being in the Freeport zone is generally quoted as being the reason for the apparent lack of interest but could it be the fear of being associated with Lord H as a couple of businesses interested in the Teesworks have publicly stated that this is why they have gone elsewhere and he admitted as much this week.

[tigertanaka]

The sheds started to be offered for sale or rent a couple of years ago. The contractors pulled off the incomplete site before Christmas and the foreman told the farmer and the regulars down there that the plan was to only build more units when tenants or owners came forward. No obvious a activity currently although Lord H promised the first tennant early in the new year. As of a fortnight ago the farmer had still not been paid.
The site over the road opposite the hems base was occupied as soon as the units were completed which must be worrying.
Being in the Freeport zone is generally quoted as being the reason for the apparent lack of interest but could it be the fear of being associated with Lord H as a couple of businesses interested in the Teesworks have publicly stated that this is why they have gone elsewhere and he admitted as much this week.

You have mentioned before about the farmer not being paid, do you know if this is this a sale or rent situation? If he sold the land he needs to ask his solicitor why he did not get paid at completion, if it's rent then he needs to get on the phone...

[Grumpy1]

Think its others who have mainly stood up for the farmer and his family who are lovely folks and have always been welcoming to enthusiasts. I dont have permission to report beyond what has be said already.

[Bill Darlington]

Looking back at the recent airport accounts I am still struggling to make sense of them
THe. Passenger airport fee at Teesside is £23.50 so they had very appropriately, 100000 extra passengers so an additional,£2.35 m turnover, but claimed the turnover was up by £7.5m, so we have an increase £5m unaccounted for.
In the previous year the fees from passengers was v.approx £2.35 m from a turnover of £7.5 ...so other sources were around £5m
Current accounts passenger fees £4.7m from £15 m turnover
Which means the difference went up from £,5.15 m to £10 m
Maybe 5% more in rents and services and at most _£0.5m in extra car park and food etc but that still leaves £4m, where did that come from ,
There seems to be some imaginative accounting, I did ask but no answer , has our secretive mayor made a undesclosed sale ? Or has anyone any ideas ?

[SWBKCB]

I think you trying to knit with fog as there are so many variables - for example, do you really think Ryanair and KLM are paying the 'walk-up' price which is published? Then there are other factors like fuel sales (prices higher etc)

On a seperate point, these are EBITDA figures - sure I've ready that interest was £4m in the previous year, so more money borrowed and higher interest rates probably wipes out any profit.

[Bill Darlington]

Yes I appreciate what you say, and there are many variables but for me the gap is too large, and information is just not available, so I just think something is hidden
The passenger fees are a little higher than average but not much, I have found airports seem to be not keen to divulge any more info than necessary , and I really don't like EBITDA accounting, it doesn't give a true picture of a companies position

[highwideandugly]

Just looking at the great Teesside movement web site.

Especially Saturdays…Recently no flights after 12 ish…how much does it cost to keep a fully functioning airport open..if nothing is happening or generating cash?

[P330]

EBITDA gives an excellent financial position. Primarily, it tells you the trading profit excluding depreciation and amortisation (which are costs from the past) and interest (which whilst a real cost/income, is not reflective of trading).

Few companies, regardless of sector disclose more than they are required to by law. One of the reasons for this is it gives away your hand to potential customers, suppliers and competitors and takes away any negotiating power you have.

There are strict, legally binding accounting rules in place, verified by independent auditors.

So unless Bill you know something we don’t, I’d strongly suggest we quit with unhelpful conspiracy theories.

[P330]

Just looking at the great Teesside movement web site.

Especially Saturdays…Recently no flights after 12 ish…how much does it cost to keep a fully functioning airport open..if nothing is happening or generating cash?

Again, you post this or versions of this every few weeks on a quiet day. Winter Saturdays have been like this for years, so not news. Your question cannot be answered about costs, but one would assume like airlines, airports make their money in the summer (from passengers at least).

Anyone got anything constructive to say today?? 🙄🙄🙄🙄

[Bill Darlington]

EBITDA gives an excellent financial position. Primarily, it tells you the trading profit excluding depreciation and amortisation (which are costs from the past) and interest (which whilst a real cost/income, is not reflective of trading).

Few companies, regardless of sector disclose more than they are required to by law. One of the reasons for this is it gives away your hand to potential customers, suppliers and competitors and takes away any negotiating power you have.

There are strict, legally binding accounting rules in place, verified by independent auditors.

So unless Bill you know something we don’t, I’d strongly suggest we quit with unhelpful conspiracy theories.
May I suggest you read
https://www.wallstreetprep.com/knowledge/warren-buffett-ebitda/#:~:text=According%20to%20Buffett%2C%20EBITDA%20is,capital%2 C%20among%20various%20other%20issues.
I'll stick with Warren Buffett

[P330]

Bill - I know my onions. I’m a qualified finance professional and have been for 25 years. This means I deal with facts not fiction.

That said, I like a good rumour about new airlines and routes from an airport….

[Bill Darlington]

Bill - I know my onions. I’m a qualified finance professional and have been for 25 years. This means I deal with facts not fiction.

That said, I like a good rumour about new airlines and routes from an airport….
And before retirement I was the CEO of a manufacturing company for 17 years, selling their finished goods all over the world and we never saw the nessesity to declare EBITDA figures, we were proud of our performance and had nothing to hide, so I am still with Warren Buffett,

[onion]

And before retirement I was the CEO of a manufacturing company for 17 years, selling their finished goods all over the world and we never saw the nessesity to declare EBITDA figures, we were proud of our performance and had nothing to hide, so I am still with Warren Buffett,
And I working in auditing, and seen many CEO have no clue what their company is doing!
There are strict rules as P330 says on reporting and unfortunately for for those conspiracy theorist out their Mr Houchen has very little if nothing to do with the accounts! But of course any CEO should be able to confirm that.

[highwideandugly]

Ok..my reply..so you are saying it’s ok for an airport to be ‘rather’ quiet during the winter months…as exceptionally high profits are made in the summer? Ok..I will go with that theory.

But my original query was how much does it cost ,I wonder, to keep a major airport open on days when..actually..not much happens?

[Flying Hi]

Ok..my reply..so you are saying it’s ok for an airport to be ‘rather’ quiet during the winter months…as exceptionally high profits are made in the summer? Ok..I will go with that theory.

But my original query was how much does it cost ,I wonder, to keep a major airport open on days when..actually..not much happens?
I would guees that its the same as 'busy' days. So divide the cost x 365 - if you actually know what the 'cost' is, that is.

[Bill Darlington]

And I working in auditing, and seen many CEO have no clue what their company is doing!
There are strict rules as P330 says on reporting and unfortunately for for those conspiracy theorist out their Mr Houchen has very little if nothing to do with the accounts! But of course any CEO should be able to confirm that.
In my 17 years I met with dozens of CEOs and from my personal experience all knew exactly what the financial capacity of their companies were,

[Flying Hi]

In my 17 years I met with dozens of CEOs and from my personal experience all knew exactly what the financial capacity of their companies were,
Me too - as QC ISO9000 auditor for big engineering multinational.
Worst / Best answer to basic question 'what is your long term ambition for your Company' was 'getting through to Friday'. Sayeth.MD of eng components company training over Millions.

[Bill Darlington]

Me too - as QC ISO9000 auditor for big engineering multinational.
Worst / Best answer to basic question 'what is your long term ambition for your Company' was 'getting through to Friday'. Sayeth.MD of eng components company training over Millions.
Indeed Mr Yan from Evergrande was saying that just a week ago
I was fortunate to retire before COVID and all the instability that followed, it's a lot more difficult nowadays,we live in a poorer world, we need to learn how to be peaceful again.

[P330]

To be fair Bill, I’ve disclosed EBITDA before and alternatives such as Operating Profit. The argument for EBITDA is it focusses on trading and ignores historical capex and interest. I get though that some don’t like it.

That said, using it is fine, entirely normal and legal, independently verified and is not a sign of people trying to hide things.

My frustration is the constant search for conspiracy and non-truths.

[Bill Darlington]

To be fair Bill, I’ve disclosed EBITDA before and alternatives such as Operating Profit. The argument for EBITDA is it focusses on trading and ignores historical capex and interest. I get though that some don’t like it.

That said, using it is fine, entirely normal and legal, independently verified and is not a sign of people trying to hide things.

My frustration is the constant search for conspiracy and non-truths.
I do appreciate that EBITDA accounting is perfectly acceptable, entirely legal, but there are many CEOs and especially investors are not fans,
I guess conspiracy theorists, and I admit I am a little that way inclined, is that they are always looking beyond the problem, rightly or wrongly, without questions we don't know the answers , some of us simply have a suspicious nature, and seek explanations before we accept what's being told to us, we are who we are, we mean no harm

[SWBKCB]

Maybe the search can be stopped by being open and honest with taxpayers money?

[P330]

I do appreciate that EBITDA accounting is perfectly acceptable, entirely legal, but there are many CEOs and especially investors are not fans,
I guess conspiracy theorists, and I admit I am a little that way inclined, is that they are always looking beyond the problem, rightly or wrongly, without questions we don't know the answers , some of us simply have a suspicious nature, and seek explanations before we accept what's being told to us, we are who we are, we mean no harm

Fair enough, can’t argue with that. 👍

[Harold77]

Just looking at the great Teesside movement web site.

Especially Saturdays…Recently no flights after 12 ish…how much does it cost to keep a fully functioning airport open..if nothing is happening or generating cash?

I wouldn't take what is on the movements page or the airport departure/ arrivals boards as gospel as to what is actually happening on the day. It may seem that nothing is happening but the exact opposite. It could be kept quite busy with single engine light aircraft doing circuits etc which they don't put up on the page. So the small aircraft can be generating cash when it doesn't seem to be anything happening.

[SWBKCB]

I wouldn't take what is on the movements page or the airport departure/ arrivals boards as gospel as to what is actually happening on the day. It may seem that nothing is happening but the exact opposite. It could be kept quite busy with single engine light aircraft doing circuits etc which they don't put up on the page. So the small aircraft can be generating cash when it doesn't seem to be anything happening.

And how much cash do based training a/c generate on a Saturday afternoon? I would expect there to be some sort of annual contract, rather than pay for invidual movements. Anybody know?

[Harold77]

I do appreciate that EBITDA accounting is perfectly acceptable, entirely legal, but there are many CEOs and especially investors are not fans,
I guess conspiracy theorists, and I admit I am a little that way inclined, is that they are always looking beyond the problem, rightly or wrongly, without questions we don't know the answers , some of us simply have a suspicious nature, and seek explanations before we accept what's being told to us, we are who we are, we mean no harm

let us see what has happened in the last financial year that the results cover.

New Hangar 360 built and occupied. Draken increases fleet with 8x Honey Badgers arriving after gaining new contract increasing their business.
TVCA had moved into new office built at the airport.
Training Schools increasing fleets.
Fuel sales increased after increase in aircraft.
Cargo operations start.
More larger aircraft using airport than previous year.

108,362 extra passengers than previous year.
1,230 extra aircraft movements

Extra passengers means increased car parking revenues and spending in terminal businesses along with fees.

Turnover £15,575,088
Cost of Sales £14,226,132
So profit £1,348,956 on turnover vs cost of sales.

Interest Rate on Loans remain same level as they have done since purchase.

So there is a lot more going on than just passengers at the airport.

[N707ZS]

Harold, we have had cargo since the airport opened in the 1960s. The shed was still lying empty with a broken door last time I passed by.

A curio. The Mayor said he had 20 million to build hangars and all the plans appeared. Then Airborne Colours said they were spending 6.5 million on the hangar. So who is actually paying for the new hangar?

[Harold77]

We've had more cargo now than we have had for a good number of years.
Financial Year
2022-23 about 15 tonnes
2023-24 about 62 tonnes so far.

CAA Historical Data
Calendar Year - Tonnes
2020 - 8
2018 - 1
2017 - 4
2016 - 8
2014 - 2
2011 - 3

2009 - 298
2008 - 290
2007 - 786
2006 - 457
2005 - 363
2004 - 485
2003 - 1,087
2002 - 1,007
2001 - 1,927
2000 - 3,007

1999 - 2,820
1998 - 1,455
1997 - 39
1996 - 68
1995 - 85
1994 - 69
1993 - 40
1992 - 35
1991 - 53
1990 - 86
1989 - 77
1988 - 65
1987 - 68
1986 - 63

[Harold77]

Harold, we have had cargo since the airport opened in the 1960s. The shed was still lying empty with a broken door last time I passed by.

A curio. The Mayor said he had 20 million to build hangars and all the plans appeared. Then Airborne Colours said they were spending 6.5 million on the hangar. So who is actually paying for the new hangar?

Meant to say Cargo operations start to increase again.

That 20m extra was to help towards covid losses and expansion of airfield facilities.
We have seen Draken new Hangar built, Hangar Four being built, Jet engine (testing) blast bay plus all the associated hard standings (aprons/ taxiways), updates to radar/ airport computer systems to include new buildings and aircraft stands and utilities connections.

The Airbourne Colours investment figure could comprise of numerous costs such as equipment and plant, hangar fitting out, also other costs.

[Cautious Optimist]

The quality of user on this thread has fallen off a cliff of late. It's like watching a load of attention seekers and village idiots bicker over a subject matter they think they understand and quite frankly don't

[N707ZS]

Agree with that. They are even missing the new developing points.