Teesside-2

[N707ZS]

Just banana skins then!

[pug]

Absolutely this. The same people having the same arguments over and over - no one is going to convince the other to change their mind.

So on the topic of actual airport stuff, has there been any further rumblings about the rumoured FedEx flights? Seems to have gone very quiet in that regard.

Hardly, most of the posts are generated on the back of announcements by the mayor, and as this is an aviation forum with a focus on Airports, Airlines and Routes then expect some differences of opinion when the latest announcement is made. Haven’t seen anyone say they want the airport to close, perhaps though it is incumbent on the airport operator to at least be truthful and transparent with the electorate.

[SWBKCB]

Hardly, most of the posts are generated on the back of announcements by the mayor, and as this is an aviation forum with a focus on Airports, Airlines and Routes then expect some differences of opinion when the latest announcement is made.

The latest flurry of discussion was prompted by this quote - but lets ignore polictics, elections, etc shall we?


Tees Valley Mayor, Ben Houchen, said, “Teesside Airport today is unrecognisable from the airport we saved from Peel’s destruction back in 2019. We have worked tirelessly to turn things around and in a short space of time we have seen massive progress. We have seen holiday flights to Spain, Greece, Portugal, and Turkey return, alongside the complete transformation of the terminal. Our plan is ahead of schedule, we are seeing record passenger numbers, and now is the time to increase our offer to local people further. That is why, if re-elected, I will bring flights to Malaga and Tenerife to our airport. Whilst my Labour opposition wanted to close the airport and sell it off for housing, I want to make sure more people can visit more Poolside destinations from Teesside. That’s my promise, and that’s what I will deliver, just as I delivered on my pledge to save the airport.”

[onion]

Hardly, most of the posts are generated on the back of announcements by the mayor, and as this is an aviation forum with a focus on Airports, Airlines and Routes then expect some differences of opinion when the latest announcement is made. Haven’t seen anyone say they want the airport to close, perhaps though it is incumbent on the airport operator to at least be truthful and transparent with the electorate.
Ah but who is the airport operator?
Ben is just the figure head of the owner of the owner of the airport! He's about 3 companies/organisations removed!

[SWBKCB]

And the band played "Believe it if you like"!

[Grumpy1]

Onion is correct in suggesting that the mayor should be remote from the operation of the airport but we are being promised that HE will deliver new routes if reelected.

[onion]

My point being how involved is he in negotiations with companies interested in operating from the airport, be it airlines or other?
He through the Tees Valley Mayoral Authority has provided the cash, but are we to believe he is actually sitting down and doing the negotiations? Or are those who actually run the airport doing it?
Now I quite believe he sweeps in and takes the credit and he may originally been a pull as he was a face companies wanted to be associated with, currently that may be different!
Likewise if he manages to win again do we think we will see his credibility with companies increase again as they may have more confidence in him actually representing the local people? As such we may see more movement from companies!
Could companies be waiting on the outcomes of elections before showing their hands!

[Grumpy1]

Cant disagree with anything that Onion says. However I do recall him flying to Budapest to encourage Wizz to consider us in their expansion plans.
Think it was the FT who suggested that he has now become such a toxic character that he is now an impediment to growth and we are seeing evidence of this so let's hope he can be persuaded to step away and let the management get on with it if reelected.

[SWBKCB]

Also flew to the States to talk to Willis. Read the Teeswork report - it would be surprising if the approach to the airport is different.

[flybar]

'we are seeing record passenger numbers'
Today there are over 30 scheduled flights from LBA and Newcastle. There are two from Teesside.
To sustain the airport we need passenger numbers all year round

[Jamesair1]

Maybe the Govt.. Department transfer to Darlington will lead to a few more passengers using the airport

[pug]

Ah but who is the airport operator?
Ben is just the figure head of the owner of the owner of the airport! He's about 3 companies/organisations removed!

Yes but who owns it? Who is accountable?

[onion]

'we are seeing record passenger numbers'
Today there are over 30 scheduled flights from LBA and Newcastle. There are two from Teesside.
To sustain the airport we need passenger numbers all year round
This is a myth, there are a number of airports that survive and make money on little to no passengers.
We need to move away from the concept of passengers being the bottom line all the time and understand that Teesside will not compete with the likes of LBA and NCL on passenger numbers but could provide a viable service to the local population.
On your LBA/NCL has 30 filight, only last week MME on some days had 30 plus flights as well! Just not all passengers, and we aren't talking all club flights either!

[Grumpy1]

"Maybe the Govt.. Department transfer to Darlington will lead to a few more passengers using the airport"
Only if the staff want to go to Amsterdam or Aberdeen? Although the transfer to Darlington was a commitment before the mayor became the mayor who still claims it as one of his and promises mainly jobs for local people so probably unlikely to generate many new customers.

[SWBKCB]

Maybe the Govt.. Department transfer to Darlington will lead to a few more passengers using the airport

Unlikely - there is a main line station close by with a good London service and most Civil Servants are banned from flying domestically anyway. Doubt there will be much foreign travel.

This is a myth, there are a number of airports that survive and make money on little to no passengers.

I agree - the industrial estate with a runway is the way to go (which was the Peel Masterplan). But so much has been spent on the terminal, which has to be manned during these two flights a day months, it must be a drain.

And for those who say Peel and the LA's were hand in hand, one of the delays in Peel starting the southside was the fights over the change in planning permission around aviation use etc

[Grumpy1]

""This is a myth, there are a number of airports that survive and make money on little to no passengers"
This is becoming a habit, but Onion is correct once again. We found out recently that the admittedly ambitious development plan had been signifficantly watered down without any anouncement (still disappointed that the normally prolific Harold kept this one to himself) so it seems that it may now be accepted that we may never achieve the passenger figures required for viability. It is starting to look like the future of the airport could be more sustainable with the expense of passenger operations.

[SWBKCB]

On your LBA/NCL has 30 filight, only last week MME on some days had 30 plus flights as well! Just not all passengers, and we aren't talking all club flights either!

How much income would they have generated though?

[pug]

Unlikely - there is a main line station close by with a good London service and most Civil Servants are banned from flying domestically anyway. Doubt there will be much foreign travel.



I agree - the industrial estate with a runway is the way to go (which was the Peel Masterplan). But so much has been spent on the terminal, which has to be manned during these two flights a day months, it must be a drain.

And for those who say Peel and the LA's were hand in hand, one of the delays in Peel starting the southside was the fights over the change in planning permission around aviation use etc

That is the point too, isn’t it why under Peel ownership it was decided they would shun the operation of passenger flights on higher fire cat aircraft?

I agree with Onion, it’s not just about passenger flights. It is like you say about the industrial estate with a runway attached ethos for small regional airports, and having KLM and other similar services which contribute to the regional economy are a good trade off for having the expense of passenger handling facilities. But those costs should be managed, and plucking passenger projections like 1.4mppa in ten years out of thin air and having that as a cornerstone of the business plan is unhelpful in my view. Reaching that level of throughput would be an exceptional circumstance and is not a likely outcome, also potentially puts the whole operation into question under other political circumstances.

[ATNotts]

How much income would they have generated though?
Indeed, and how much cost would all these flights actually have covered?

To handle passenger services an airport requires a terminal, security staff, UKBA facilities, cleaners, etc etc and they will be mostly on full time contracts with big gaps in their working day.

The non public flights require far less support, and doubtless pay far less than KLM or Ryanair (or in the case of the latter, their customers) for using the airport.

This goes not only for MME but as I have mentioned upthread the likes of SEN, CWL, PIK, EXT etc. The passenger facilities have to be worked much harder for the airport to be profitable for its owner and operators.

Comparing LBA and MME on all flights is nonsense when LBA handles nearly 10 times more scheduled flights than MME so has considerable economies of scale. If MME had, or grows a substantial cargo operation as EMA has low PAX operations become less important.

[N707ZS]

That is the point too, isn’t it why under Peel ownership it was decided they would shun the operation of passenger flights on higher fire cat aircraft?

I agree with Onion, it’s not just about passenger flights. It is like you say about the industrial estate with a runway attached ethos for small regional airports, and having KLM and other similar services which contribute to the regional economy are a good trade off for having the expense of passenger handling facilities. But those costs should be managed, and plucking passenger projections like 1.4mppa in ten years out of thin air and having that as a cornerstone of the business plan is unhelpful in my view. Reaching that level of throughput would be an exceptional circumstance and is not a likely outcome, also potentially puts the whole operation into question under other political circumstances.
Peel were about when TNT left there cargo and maintenance base, so cargo also wasn't in the plan.

[pug]

Peel were about when TNT left there cargo and maintenance base, so cargo also wasn't in the plan.

Why did TNT leave? Most likely because of their takeover by FEDEX so the requirement for an operating station at MME went with the acquisition, unlikely to have been much that Peel could have done about that.

[N707ZS]

Fedex has the whole of hangar 1 at the movement, road freight. And before that hangar 2 road freight. The aircraft side is what was removed in the Peel days.

[pug]

Fedex has the whole of hangar 1 at the movement, road freight. And before that hangar 2 road freight. The aircraft side is what was removed in the Peel days.

Yes but my point is that it was removed after TNT no longer required it. I’m sorry if I’m getting the wrong end of the stick here but there seems to be implication that if something has found itself surplus to requirements it should be kept anyway (at possible cost?) on a just in case basis. Had the tangible possibility of regular air freight reared its head again under the ownership of Peel the airport would have accommodated it.

FEDEX operates a station on the site, it was probably the case that they needed the space for their non airside operation. The rent from which ultimately contributed to the airports revenue.

[highwideandugly]

They are records..year on year..

This year could be another record year..but not by much as nothing new on offer really?

[Harold77]

When the original Business Plan was put forward it had three scenarios.

Scenario 1, 2 & 3.

Scenario 1 Organic Growth.
Scenario 1: Organic: It is assumed that DTVA’s market share remains constant relative to its North East peers and grows at the market rate. This scenario reflects no material change to how DTVA operates today with growth coming as a result of improvements to load factors on existing routes and marginal increases in capacity.


Scenario 2 Seasonal Growth.
Scenario 2: Seasonal/Regional: It is assumed that more active management allows DTVA to attract seasonal services, bringing its service levels to the standard seen at other UK airports. It is also assumed that DTVA attracts a regional operator to better serve the domestic and short haul market. For this scenario, ICF have adopted a bottom up approach at the route level based on regional demand and benchmarking to other UK airports.


Scenario 3 Optimistic.
Scenario 3: Low Cost Carrier (LCC): It is assumed that driven management is able to attract an established LCC from a regional competitor airport to DTVA. It is assumed that the carrier moves all operations to DTVA over a two year period, with minor disruption to its market share. It is assumed that regional operations are established in addition to the LCC traffic, but at a lower throughput given the competition from the LCC operator. It is assumed that the LCC provides services to cater for the summer seasonal demand and that therefore only a limited charter operation remains at DTVA outside the LCC’s network.

REVENUE OPERATIONS
5.11 The aviation Business Plan financial forecast over the 10 year period 2019 to 2028 is as follows:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/861x674/teesairport_revenue_predictions_4660690102aa9aa8a9e879919e23 5d7a18944294.jpg

5.12 The Business Plan financial forecast as set out above is based on Scenario 3 of the ICF report. Key assumptions within this plan are that passenger numbers will grow to 1.61m by 2028 on the basis that the airport will secure a low cost carrier and there will be an increase in seasonal and regional operator flights.

5.13 The Business Plan forecast is that losses will continue to 2025 at a total cost of £19.4m. After this point the airport will be in annual financial surplus, which will steadily increase from £0.65m in 2026 to £4.32m in 2037. In the total plan period to 2037 the outturn forecast is £17.8m surplus.

5.14 In assessing the financial risks should passenger growth not be achieved as forecast two further financial scenarios where considered. Firstly, that a low cost carrier not secured and secondly, that there is neither growth in seasonal / regional activity nor is a low cost carrier secured. The detail of both these scenarios have been set out as Scenario 1 and 2 in the ICF report.

5.15 If a low cost carrier is not secured but growth in seasonal and regional activity is achieved as planned then passenger numbers will increase to 379k by 2028 (as set out the Scenario 2 in the ICF report). Under this scenario losses will continue throughout the first 10 years, with a total loss of £16m. The level of losses will however decline on an annual basis from £2.7m in 2019 to £0.9m by 2028. By 2037 losses are forecast at £0.4m per annum.

5.16 In the worst case scenario with neither growth in seasonal / regional activity nor a low cost carrier secured then passenger numbers will only grow organically to 167k by 2028. The financial impact of this would be a £20.6m loss over the first 10 years. The level of losses will however decline on an annual basis from £2.7m in 2019 to £1.7m by 2028. By 2037 losses are forecast at £1.4m per annum.



So reading the original Business Case. Three Financial Scenarios were assessed and agreed to by the TVCA and relevant Council Authorities.

So let us have a look at where we currently are Revenue wise compared to what was on the Business case.
Fin Year / Predicted / Actual

2018-19 / £5.76m / £7.56m (Purchased 15th Feb 2019)
2019-20 / £5.82m / £7.75m
2020-21 £10.76m / £4.81m
2021-22 £16.69m / £7.69m
2022-23 £17.00m / £15.58m

The Scenario out runs for 2027-28.

Scenario 3
Revenue £17.84m
Passengers 1.61m

Scenario 2
Passengers 379k

Scenario 1
Passengers 167k

We are going to see far higher revenues than what was expected in the ICF report for 2027-28.

No Business in the world could ever foresee a brutal event like to what Covid turned out to be. So Business Plans in any business, would never have taken into account such an event.

As part of the Business Case it was calculated that a Route Development Fund of £500k for first four years was set. So Route Development had £2m to get new routes started. This was seen with 8 new Domestic routes with Eastern announced in 2020.
Belfast City, Cardiff, Dublin, London City, Southampton and Isle of Man, then followed later in year with Newquay and London Heathrow.

In November 2020 it was announced that Ryanair to start two routes Alicante & Palma starting in Summer 2021. TUI announced Palma to start in 2022.

The objective was to attract 10 additional routes by 2022.

The effects of Covid had dented what was looking to be a good start.to the turnaround plan.

In September 2021 an updated Business Plan was released.
Objectives
Revenues £30.5m by 2025
Passengers 314,000 in 2022.
Passengers 1 million by March 2026.

Ryanair expands programme for 2022
Alicante, Corfu, Faro & Palma

TUI announces Antalya added to schedule for 2022, postponed to 2023.

TUI doubles Palma route for 2023.

Ryanair increases Alicante route to three times a week.

TUI announces Dalaman route for 2024.

TVCA move their offices from Thornaby and into the Airport.

Terminal refurbished.
New Hangar built for Draken.
Jet/ Engine Blast Bay begins construction.
New Hangar being built for Airbourne Colours.
Darlington Council finally grants full permission for Willis Aviation Village.
Southside Road built.
First unit on Southside built.

Cargo stands at over 72 Tonnes for 2023, highest amount of cargo since 2009.

Employment
Year / Employees / Wages
2018-19 / 81 / £3.58m
2022-23 / 124 / £4.95m

Then you also have increased staff numbers at airport based companies. Thus giving a great substantial amount of spending power in the local economy.

So the investment in the airport is starting to show the benefits in numerous avenues.

There was another updated Business Plan in 2022 and the airport is on target with that plan.

[highwideandugly]

Your head must be a whirl🤪

[N707ZS]

Southside road is not finished and possibly not paid for. Might be another reason for greater income.

[onion]

How much income would they have generated though?
Let's put it this way Draken has probably meant the airport has stayed in business.
But how much is anyones guess! I would say probably more than you think.

[onion]

Southside road is not finished and possibly not paid for. Might be another reason for greater income.
Just how would not paying for something increase income? 🤔

[SWBKCB]

Let's put it this way Draken has probably meant the airport has stayed in business.
But how much is anyones guess! I would say probably more than you think.

Agreed, FR/Draken (and KLM) have been the airports mainstays for years. My point was that I'd be surprised if Draken paid for individual flights - more likely an annual figure adjusted on a sliding scale based on actual number of flights

[Harold77]

Let's put it this way Draken has probably meant the airport has stayed in business.
But how much is anyones guess! I would say probably more than you think.

Totally agree, if it wasn't for the four based main companies (Draken, Thales, Serco & FedEx) plus the two flight schools providing a good income base, it would be highly likely the airport would have folded long ago.
Especially Draken having a substantial aircraft base has provided three income streams Rent, Fuel Sales and Movements Fees. If it wasn't for the Draken airborne operations, I don't think the airport would have survived the past decade.

Now we have Draken, Thales, Serco, FedEx, Willis, Airbourne Colours, IAS Medical plus AeroSchool and Eden Flight Training giving a good solid foundation base of incomes on the airfield and numerous airborne activity. Whilst the terminal redevelopment has seen new offices built with TVCA moving in plus the passenger terminal retail and hospitality units bringing in incomes. As passenger numbers climb car park incomes are increasing.

All this helps give the airport a firm financial footing on which passenger operations can be grown from.

[Harold77]

Agreed, FR/Draken (and KLM) have been the airports mainstays for years. My point was that I'd be surprised if Draken paid for individual flights - more likely an annual figure adjusted on a sliding scale based on actual number of flights

May be a case of they have an annual/ numerous year package deal fee, but that could include X amount of flights in the package. So in essence they are still paying for each flight. Then you have the fuel sales also.

[SWBKCB]

May be a case of they have an annual/ numerous year package deal fee, but that could include X amount of flights in the package. So in essence they are still paying for each flight. Then you have the fuel sales also.

Yes, exactly - so Draken having 'X' number of flights on day 'Y' isn't really of any significance, it will already be part of their deal with the airport. Do Draken buy fuel from the airport or have their own supply?

Now we have Draken, Thales, Serco, FedEx, Willis, Airbourne Colours, IAS Medical plus AeroSchool and Eden Flight Training giving a good solid foundation base of incomes on the airfield and numerous airborne activity. Whilst the terminal redevelopment has seen new offices built with TVCA moving in plus the passenger terminal retail and hospitality units bringing in incomes. As passenger numbers climb car park incomes are increasing.

Apart from Airbourne and Willis, all of these are long term residents. None of them are using the expensive cargo and passenger facilities which have been developed. Given the money spent on these, they must be costing more than they earn, especially in the off season. There is a seven hour gap between the RYR leaving thsi morning and the next arrival - how is that staffed?

[highwideandugly]

Some 10 years ago..it was once announced that it was a 2 million per year contract.

If benji would be a bit more open with revenue streams we might not have to speculate as much !

[Jamesair1]

Any Politician or Journalist jumping into this thread could fairly assume that he/she has walked into a campaign to close the airport......just joking..... (I hope).

[SWBKCB]

Any Politician or Journalist jumping into this thread could fairly assume that he/she has walked into a campaign to close the airport......just joking..... (I hope).

Only if they don't read it propoerly. The discussion is mainly about the best use of resources to ensure the airport remains open and how it is managed.

I think the only person who discusses the possibility of the airport being shut is the Mayor!

[onion]

Some 10 years ago..it was once announced that it was a 2 million per year contract.

If benji would be a bit more open with revenue streams we might not have to speculate as much !
Sorry but Ben can't give that information out and for people to think they are entitled to it now is just naive.
I've heard figures of £2m a year, £5m over a number of years and numerous other figures.
Let me put it this way when the Local Authorities owned the airport we did know the ins and outs of duck's a*@# so why are we so concerned about it now! Political motivation and keyboard warriors.
Most of the LAs if not all were Labour and Ben is a Conservative, the Internet and chat forums wasn't as accessible and back then the airport was carrying more passengers.
Just because you think and believe you are entitled to something doesn't mean you actually are.

[Grumpy1]

Have to disagree with Onion on this one. The Airport is "owned" and subsidised by the taxpayer so the taxpayer feels entitled to see the numbers regardless if there is a legal right to see the books.
The coruption report has identified a culture in which there is a reluctance to allow scrutiny and to demonstrate value for money and the Mayor's constant refusal to answer legitimate questions results in a lack of confidence and causes suspicion, leading some to ask what is he trying to hide. He is playing into the hands of those who want the project to fail.
I would love to know how much Ryanair recieve in "discounts", when Draken will start paying rent for their new hanger and definitely how much (if anything) his mates paid for the South Side.

[P330]

Only if they don't read it propoerly. The discussion is mainly about the best use of resources to ensure the airport remains open and how it is managed.

I think the only person who discusses the possibility of the airport being shut is the Mayor!

You may be right and I genuinely don’t believe people on here want that to happen, but words have consequences.

Now I am not saying words on here have the power to topple a mayor or kill an airport but collectively, combined with other media and actions could. This forum does not exist in a vacuum.

Now whilst the questions are legitimate to ask. And whilst it’s fair to say the mayor brings most of this on himself, there comes a point where you get worn down.

As I said the other day, the constant same questions, the disputing of facts, the claims of illegality. At the other end of this are businesses choosing to invest, employees with
mortgages to pay and dare I say it, a mayor and management team who are human beings who whilst getting lots of things wrong, are I believe, doing everything they can to make it a success.

Sooner or later, people will give up and say ‘sod it’. Sooner or later, people will walk away. Yes, the mayor may have caused lots of this and done little to help himself, but he is also keeping the airport going along with lots of companies, employees and stakeholders.

We may not want it to close, but be mindful of the actions of our words.

And if it did, the mature keyboard warriors will just blame the mayor and say ‘nowt to do with me guv, he started it.’

[Harold77]

Grumpy1.
Oh really.
Let's put it all out there for other airports/ airfields to see what we are charging. Then other airports/ airfields will come along and undercut by some way to gain business. What a way to do business unless you want to go out of business.

Even though it is publicly owned it doesn't mean the public are entitled to know what commercial terms that are in place.

Loose lips sink ships.

[Grumpy1]

Give over Harold. You know very well what I mean. Our airport is reliant on the continued support from the taxpayer so transparency is essential.

[Bill Darlington]

A snippet from GOOGLE news

Ryanair has cut flights from its summer 2024 schedule after confirming on Friday (1 March) that it now expects to receive just 40 of the 57 planned Boeing 737-MAX8200 aircraft that were due to be delivered before the end of June 2024.

[Grumpy1]

It's a revamp of old news Bill. The rate of delivery has been known for a long time so suspect it's more to do with the justification of fare increases that they have linked this to given that new routes all over europe have been anounced.

[onion]

Give over Harold. You know very well what I mean. Our airport is reliant on the continued support from the taxpayer so transparency is essential.
Likewise Grumpy my comment was that people are being naive if they think they are entitled too it! Remember there are usually 2 signatories to a contract and one in these circumstances doesn't have to give out that information as such 'commercial sensitivity' is an actual thing.
Would you be willing as a taxpayer to pay for the indiscretions of an elected figure or a public body.... no you wouldn't.
The airport is bound by commercial contracts. If you want companies to leave quickly and loose all confidence in Ben and the public body that runs the airport then go ahead publish those commercially sensitive contracts. You won't get any company doing business with the airport.
You can't have it both ways! Crying foul when you say hes damaged goods while advocating to make it even worse!

[Grumpy1]

Just look at the damage caused to the credibility of the Teesworks as a result of him handing 90% to his associates in a secret deal. This was criticised in the corruption report although he did not recieve a brown envelope. On the face of it he has done somthing similar with the South Side, which I think had no tendering process, but he wont even indicate if any payment was recieved. It may have been a great deal for the taxpayer and the airport but we may never know and the uncertainty gives ammunition to the airports critics.
There has been much criticism that he has only attracted holiday flights that are of little economic benefit to the region but may help him win an election. Why refuse to answer questions about the basics of a deal (not the actual amounts involved) and shut the critics up.

[Bill Darlington]

Here's a great video off you YouTube for you Grumpy
https://youtu.be/ulu_HTsoTLM?si=QxnhVHgA6ikUDYV-

You may have seen it....it's 4 years ago, and Houchen is claiming that there will be 3.5 million sq ft built, later it was 1.9 million and more recently 2.8 million ????
So in 4 years just one unit, and less than 1%, very disappointing, and for the foreseeable future not likely to add much to revenues,
Unit D has been built, one of just 4 in the first phase, thereafter the joint venture will be not being building anymore, rather, renting out parcels of land for clients to build themselves, that's what I understand from the agents,
I did see some freedom of info requests made in the past but they were fobbed off, so I guess we'll never know the financing of the South side

[onion]

Here's a great video off you YouTube for you Grumpy
https://youtu.be/ulu_HTsoTLM?si=QxnhVHgA6ikUDYV-

You may have seen it....it's 4 years ago, and Houchen is claiming that there will be 3.5 million sq ft built, later it was 1.9 million and more recently 2.8 million ????
So in 4 years just one unit, and less than 1%, very disappointing, and for the foreseeable future not likely to add much to revenues,
Unit D has been built, one of just 4 in the first phase, thereafter the joint venture will be not being building anymore, rather, renting out parcels of land for clients to build themselves, that's what I understand from the agents,
I did see some freedom of info requests made in the past but they were fobbed off, so I guess we'll never know the financing of the South side
If you read into the accounts there is some information into the funding of the Southside with a transfer of I think £6million from the airport to the joint venture to support it.
On a side note that was an expense in the accounts, so you could argue if that hadn't of been made the airport would of turned a profit last year! 🤔

The Southside is a joint venture. With a company 50/50 split with the airport. That company owns no land it is just a development and managment company currently.
So a different set up to the Teesworks area.

My point again is you can't complain that Ben is causing business to look elsewhere while advocating for the release of information that will almost certainly make those businesses go elsewhere! You are contradicting yourselves!

[Grumpy1]

Thanks Bill and Onion.
I was confident that Onion would provide some facts so thanks. The one similarity between Teesworks and the SS is that there has been a resistance to respond to enquiries by the press and others and explain what was happening which in the case of Teesworks resulted in numerous critical press reports and encouraged a certain Labour MP to make daft allegations under privilege.
I note with interest that the airport has transfered £6million to the developers whereas my simple mind asks if it should be the developers should be paying the airport for the valuable land that they have aquired.
Thanks to Bill for the YouTube link. Embarrassing.
Those of us who go to the South Side on a regular basis have spoken to the land owner plus land agents, surveyors and construction staff before work was suspended. There is much that could be said but perhaps not in a public forum although it is no secret that the project is years late and over budget. As Bill has pointed out, the origional plan to build units and rent them out on completion this seems to have been abandoned in favour of occupants renting plots and funding the building. Wasnt sure if this was in the public domain but others can speculate on the reason for this. Oh, and when I was last down, the farmer was still waiting for his money!!!

[onion]

Thanks Bill and Onion.
I was confident that Onion would provide some facts so thanks. The one similarity between Teesworks and the SS is that there has been a resistance to respond to enquiries by the press and others and explain what was happening which in the case of Teesworks resulted in numerous critical press reports and encouraged a certain Labour MP to make daft allegations under privilege.
I note with interest that the airport has transfered £6million to the developers whereas my simple mind asks if it should be the developers should be paying the airport for the valuable land that they have aquired.
Thanks to Bill for the YouTube link. Embarrassing.
Those of us who go to the South Side on a regular basis have spoken to the land owner plus land agents, surveyors and construction staff before work was suspended. There is much that could be said but perhaps not in a public forum although it is no secret that the project is years late and over budget. As Bill has pointed out, the origional plan to build units and rent them out on completion this seems to have been abandoned in favour of occupants renting plots and funding the building. Wasnt sure if this was in the public domain but others can speculate on the reason for this. Oh, and when I was last down, the farmer was still waiting for his money!!!
As far as the land is concerned its still the airports. The developers havent aquired it.

[Bill Darlington]

This appears to be a very strange deal, it's supposed to be a joint venture where the airport puts in £6 million and the venture partner puts in nothing, I assume the £6 was to develope unit D and maybe the next one as well,
Can anyone explain why this seems to be a one sided deal

[Bill Darlington]

Also Houchen proudly pronounced that there would be a £200 million pound investment into the South side, so that's £194m to go. !?

[MARKEYD]

Oh god please make this thread stop its the worst I think I have ever read 🤣🤣

[Grumpy1]

"Oh god please make this thread stop its the worst I think I have ever read"
The South Side development is intended to be an enduring source of income to assist the airport to survive so its important to those of us who want the plan to succeed.
Fortunaty, reading the thread is not compulsory.

[P330]

"Oh god please make this thread stop its the worst I think I have ever read"
The South Side development is intended to be an enduring source of income to assist the airport to survive so its important to those of us who want the plan to succeed.
Fortunaty, reading the thread is not compulsory.

Any chance this nonsense debate could be taken somewhere else. This is genuinely killing what used to be a great forum. Can’t you and Bill just get a room somewhere and go and whinge together there?

[Markushillman]

Any chance this nonsense debate could be taken somewhere else. This is genuinely killing what used to be a great forum. Can’t you and Bill just get a room somewhere and go and whinge together there?

:D this thread gets more posts views than Heathrow one of the busiest airports in the world on this forum. Seriously this thread needs temporary closing

[Harold77]

The Airport fully owns the land and will continue to own the land. There has been no transfer of land.

There is £23.6m of drawdown loans available from the TVCA to the airport for the Southside project. This is to allow for infrastructure works to be installed and development to begin.

That has been clear from the very start.

It is the Southside Business Park operating company that is the 50/50 joint venture.


A few years ago I was told that to resurface a mile of road costs £1m, that is just taking the old road surface up and laying a new surface. So to build a new road from nothing, remove a considerable height of land and build a roundabout on an active road with all the foundation work, underground infrastructures and utilities. That is going to cost a considerable amount.

[Convair 440]

:D this thread gets more posts views than Heathrow one of the busiest airports in the world on this forum. Seriously this thread needs temporary closing
It's time the Moderators stepped in and put a end to this
It's probably doing Teesside more harm than good whith all this bickering on this thread

[ZULUBOY]

It's time the Moderators stepped in and put a end to this
It's probably doing Teesside more harm than good whith all this bickering on this thread

Please don't stop it Mods, it's the best thread on here. Love it!!

[Atlantic Explorer]

It's time the Moderators stepped in and put a end to this
It's probably doing Teesside more harm than good whith all this bickering on this thread

Bickering? All I see is healthy debate. It’s called an internet chat forum for a reason, it’s where people discuss issues. Sometimes the issues are not what other people want to discuss, that’s fine, just click on by and don’t bother reading the thread if it bothers you. I’m struggling to see why anonymous chat on a forum will harm Teeside to be quite honest. The larger issues at hand at Teeside will have much more impact than any of us posting on a forum I would suggest.

[DP.]

I’m struggling to see why anonymous chat on a forum will harm Teeside to be quite honest. The larger issues at hand at Teeside will have much more impact than any of us posting on a forum I would suggest.

Quite. If around a dozen people having a back and forth on here about it could truly harm the airport, I think that suggest much more fundamental issues with the place. As I've said upthread, I'm an outsider to this whole debate, but I find the entire discussion about the viability of the airport and Houchen's deep involvement to be absolutely fascinating.

[N707ZS]

Just how would not paying for something increase income? 🤔
I have had a few days away. To make it more clearer. I am suggesting. If you do not pay for something it does not come up on your accounts as being spent. Thus your profit is greater.

[onion]

I have had a few days away. To make it more clearer. I am suggesting. If you do not pay for something it does not come up on your accounts as being spent. Thus your profit is greater.
Income and profit are 2 different things.
But in answer to your point possibly but unlikely as it would still appear as a debt not paid!
If this was a bad debt there would more than likely be a specific note to say that this debt has not been paid on time!
Also I'm unsure if payment would have been due in the accounting period anyway.
If it was it would normally appear as a debt owed and be accounted for. It could appear in the accounts to be paid in the following year or over a number of years.
This could be where people are saying said land owner has not been paid... the airport could of negotiated payment begining in x year for a number of years rather than up front or when work was finished!

[SWBKCB]

This could be where people are saying said land owner has not been paid... the airport could of negotiated payment begining in x year for a number of years rather than up front or when work was finished!

All the farmers I've met understand how money works - I'd be surprised if he's saying he's not been paid if the payment wasn't due.

[onion]

All the farmers I've met understand how money works - I'd be surprised if he's saying he's not been paid if the payment wasn't due.
I made a suggestion as to where the rumours came from that's all.
Have you spoken to tge specific farmer involved?

[SWBKCB]

No - it's clear I was speculating and talking in general terms based on experience, as were you.

[N707ZS]

Until recently the farmer had not been paid.

[Beafer]

During the budget Mr Hunt was praising Houchen!

Houchen will be out at the next election. He will be visiting the Lords each day to claim his £300 daily attendance allowance.

He's done the deals with the rich friends, so wont be short of a bob or two. The shredders will be going late into the night when he loses the next Mayor election.

Tories will lose all of their red wall seats. When Labour take over they will be looking at who got what, and where the money has gone?

You never know Peel may be already talking to the Mayor about buying it back ;)

[N707ZS]

Not the wife's sherry again Beafer.

[highwideandugly]

Benji will get in again..no doubt!

Meanwhile back at the ‘drome’. 3 scheduled departures today…. 18 over previous 5 days…3 ish per day.
How on earth is the airport making any money..especially the concessions in the terminal?

I’m sorry..it must be massive subsidies?

[Markushillman]

Benji will get in again..no doubt!

Meanwhile back at the ‘drome’. 3 scheduled departures today…. 18 over previous 5 days…3 ish per day.
How on earth is the airport making any money..especially the concessions in the terminal?

I’m sorry..it must be massive subsidies?

But hey only 6 seats left on the Alicante tomorrow, so thats 183 punters passing through. ;)

[onion]

Benji will get in again..no doubt!

Meanwhile back at the ‘drome’. 3 scheduled departures today…. 18 over previous 5 days…3 ish per day.
How on earth is the airport making any money..especially the concessions in the terminal?

I’m sorry..it must be massive subsidies?

Meanwhile Draken have to pay even if there are no movements.
If you want to see the subsidies check the accounts for the losses.
There are airports out there that make money without schedule services or very few, why can't Teesside moving forward?

[Harold77]

But hey only 6 seats left on the Alicante tomorrow, so thats 183 punters passing through. ;)

Ticket price available for tomorrow £313.04

[SWBKCB]

Yes, you are right. But is anybody in the terminal making money for six months a year?

[Markushillman]

Ticket price available for tomorrow £313.04

A steal at that price! In all seriousness good load for early March

[Harold77]

£253 fares for the next two Sundays and not one fare below £100 for March and that includes the Palma flight at end of the month.

[Grumpy1]

Ticket price available for tomorrow £313.04
Compared with £140+ish this week from LBA or MAN

[onion]

Ticket price available for tomorrow £313.04
Compared with £140+ish this week from LBA or MAN
The point is the flight is likely to be full! Where as how many seats are left from LBA and MAN?

[Harold77]

Ticket price available for tomorrow £313.04
Compared with £140+ish this week from LBA or MAN

Did you actually look at what fares available. Just looked now and these are the prices for MAN & LBA.

Manchester
£313 Thursday
£188 Friday
£188 Saturday
£253 Sunday
£288 Monday
£313 Tuesday
£313 Wednesday

Leeds
£188 Thursday
£253 Friday
£215 Saturday
£215 Sunday
£188 Monday
£206 Tuesday
£206 Wednesday


I'll throw in Newcastle's as well.
£323 Friday
£298 Saturday
£323 Sunday
£323 Monday

Teesside
£313 Thursday
£313 Sunday
£188 Monday
£188 Thursday

[flybar]

Did you actually look at what fares available. Just looked now and these are the prices for MAN & LBA.

Manchester
£313 Thursday
£188 Friday
£188 Saturday
£253 Sunday
£288 Monday
£313 Tuesday
£313 Wednesday

Leeds
£188 Thursday
£253 Friday
£215 Saturday
£215 Sunday
£188 Monday
£206 Tuesday
£206 Wednesday


I'll throw in Newcastle's as well.
£323 Friday
£298 Saturday
£323 Sunday
£323 Monday

Teesside
£313 Thursday
£313 Sunday
£188 Monday
£188 Thursday

Clearly only looking at Ryanair - alternative flights are available from the airports quoted, except Teesside!

[Grumpy1]

Ryanairs algorithms change fares constantly, often based on how many enquiries are being made.

[N707ZS]

They also seem to change per customer.

[Grumpy1]

Always have changed per hour and per customer. MAN-ALC tomorrow was £140ish last night but now £175 on same phone but only £160 on second phone yet Harrold was quoted £188. From experience, if lots of seats available price will drop tonight.
Have booked many low cost flights at last minute at much lower price than amount quoted a couple of weeks earlier but most dont want to take the risk of selling out and probably not from MME where there is less competition.
Same goes for hotels and car hire deals.

[Grumpy1]

Well the Ryanair fare MAN-ALC for tomorrow is £175 and has not dropped so flight must be full(ish).

[Bill Darlington]

The mayor, today, posted on Facebook and Instagram his big airport pre election update
claiming overwhelming success including the fact that the airport is bursting with jobs and investments, just a little over the top....he also claimed massive Willis investment and that they already have 100 current employees , more likely a whole lot less, and delivering cargo flights, that the new £200 million business park is now open, with many more units coming, and of course if he's elected Malaga and Tenerife flights, it was expected that he would make a big airport update/promotion, but I thought it e be a little nearer to the election date , so maybe they'll be another even more OTT media post next month

[TheSpiddalKid]

[QUOTE=Bill Darlington;11614223]The mayor, today, posted on Facebook and Instagram his big airport pre election update
claiming overwhelming success including the fact that the airport is bursting with jobs and investments, just a little over the top....he also claimed massive Willis investment and that they already have 100 current employees , more likely a whole lot less, and delivering cargo flights, that the new £200 million business park is now open, with many more units coming, and of course if he's elected Malaga and Tenerife flights, it was expected that he would make a big airport update/promotion, but I thought it e be a little nearer to the election date , so maybe they'll be another even more OTT media post next month/]

Do rules of purdah apply to mayoral elections as they do for parliamentary elections?

If they do, then at some point he will be bound by them and not allowed to use the Airport as a good news platform (e.g. announcing new routes for political advantage).

[N707ZS]

Has there been a cargo flight in 2024 more than a PC-12.

[Beafer]

On the centre line... plans in the pipeline up the road in Urlay Nook. Will he buy the airport off Benny, as he already owns one in Germany.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24176676.michael-flacks-buys-land-around-north-east-air-ambulance-hq/

[SWBKCB]

Has there been a cargo flight in 2024 more than a PC-12.

I was thinking the same - can't think what the last one was.

[Grumpy1]

Those who follow the mayor's facebook page would be forgiven for thinking that the business park had tenants providing jobs and income, that the freight centre was actually handling goods, that Wiilis are building a village and that there is an ever increasing number of passenger flights. He claims to be "AHEAD" (he used capitals) of the 10 year plan but we must thank Harrold for exposing the scandal of the plan being secretly rewritten with no anouncement from what was initially announced or even mentioned on his social media.

[Harold77]

Those who follow the mayor's facebook page would be forgiven for thinking that the business park had tenants providing jobs and income, that the freight centre was actually handling goods, that Wiilis are building a village and that there is an ever increasing number of passenger flights. He claims to be "AHEAD" (he used capitals) of the 10 year plan but we must thank Harrold for exposing the scandal of the plan being secretly rewritten with no anouncement from what was initially announced or even mentioned on his social media.

Do you ever give in.

You might be surprised that in the Business World that every company updates their Business Plan either every year/ every couple of years. There is no difference what goes on here at the airport. It is a necessity of businesses to keep reviewing their plans. Does every company make a song and dance of their business plans. You'll find that companies issue business plan developments information within press releases when they report on something.

So you will find that information about updates have been given out over the past couple of years.

But since you don't look into anything, you just go off peoples opinions (that is in your own words). Then it comes as no surprise to you to think everything is shrouded in secrecy when you miss out on info that has been put into the public domain just because you can't be bothered to look/ do your own research.

Do us all a favour and actually do some research of your own before making comments that infuriate/ wind up people. Instead of relying on opinions from people and making your assumptions based on other peoples opinions rather than your own research.

[Grumpy1]

My appologies Harrold. I was trying to give you credit for highlighting the covert changes to the plan. You are quite wrong in trying to suggesting that it is not unusual to significantly change a 10 year plan every year or so. That's why it's called a 10 year plan! Given the prominence of the initial announcement of the plan the public are entitled to expect fundamental changes to be announced with similar prominence and not to be hidden away so that only those with enought time on there hands to undertaken research on the internet (heard it called lots of things!) can find. Thanks again for exposing this but it's a shame that the mayor did not tell his supporters who probably have no idea of the revision in the grand promises made.

[Robert-Ryan]

Do you ever give in.

Do us all a favour and actually do some research of your own before making comments that infuriate/ wind up people. Instead of relying on opinions from people and making your assumptions based on other peoples opinions rather than your own research.
The pot is calling the kettle black here mind!

[Harold77]

My appologies Harrold. I was trying to give you credit for highlighting the covert changes to the plan. You are quite wrong in trying to suggesting that it is not unusual to significantly change a 10 year plan every year or so. That's why it's called a 10 year plan! Given the prominence of the initial announcement of the plan the public are entitled to expect fundamental changes to be announced with similar prominence and not to be hidden away so that only those with enought time on there hands to undertaken research on the internet (heard it called lots of things!) can find. Thanks again for exposing this but it's a shame that the mayor did not tell his supporters who probably have no idea of the revision in the grand promises made.

The changes weren't covert at all, they were in the public domain. Article about the 2021 updates https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airport-bosses-aim-1m-passengers-21625977

It was realised quite soon that the Scenario 3 Revenues target of £17.84m by 31st March 2028 was going to be surpassed far earlier than predicted. Hence updates to the plan. The 2021 update puts Revenue target of £30.5m by 31st March 2025.
https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/about/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/03/TIA-Business-Plan-redacted-002.pdf

[SWBKCB]

Those who follow the mayor's facebook page would be forgiven for thinking that the business park had tenants providing jobs and income, that the freight centre was actually handling goods, that Wiilis are building a village and that there is an ever increasing number of passenger flights.

Getting back to the point - I've not seen any of the Mayor's posts, but if Grumpy is correct, this doesn't seem to be an accurate reflection of current activity.

[onion]

Getting back to the point - I've not seen any of the Mayor's posts, but if Grumpy is correct, this doesn't seem to be an accurate reflection of current activity.
Here is Ben's post below so you can make your mind up on whether Grumpy is making an accurate report!

Our airport is bursting with investment and jobs 💪

Our airport is going from strength to strength and we all know that new holiday flights are what people want to see and that’s why, if re-elected, I will bring flights to Malaga and Tenerife from Teesside 🏖️

However, to make sure our airport continues to grow, we have to use every part of it and that’s why we have delivered new cargo flights and opened our new Teesside Airport Business Park 📦

🇺🇸 We have become home to US giant, Willis Aviation’s, Maintenance base, employing over 100 people (if you’ve ever wondered why all those EasyJet planes are parked up, they are here to be inspected and serviced by Willis)

🏗️ We have seen the construction of the first Unit on the Business Park (with plenty more coming), connected by the newly built Mynarski Way.

🎨 We have also secured a £6.5m investment from International Aviation Paint company Airborne Colours, who will make our new Hangar 4 their home bringing 40 new good quality local jobs.

📈 All this means we are AHEAD of our 10-year plan and securing the Long Term Future of OUR airport 👊

[Bill Darlington]

Most of the post is grossly exaggerated, some people might even believe it

[P330]

Most of the post is grossly exaggerated, some people might even believe it

Bill - out of interest, which parts are exaggerated? Be good to compare with the facts you have.

[onion]

Most of the post is grossly exaggerated, some people might even believe it
So what is unacceptable exaggerated then. Just so I know what I need to fact check.

I ll give you the new cargo flights are a stretch, they may have come anyway but could argue they are new per say, but Ben is a politican.
The rest seems accurate enough.
What am I not to believe, Willis are there aren't they or have I missed something?
The paint shop is going up, is it worth £6.5m and will it bring 40 jobs? I don't know but neither do you Bill so can't comment on the exaggeration.
I'm sure there is a building on the southside - or do my eyes decieve me? More to come? According to the planning permission there is but I suppose Bill you have insider knowledge showing otherwise? Please share.
Come on Bill what is actually wrong with the press release or is it you just don't like the truth on this one?

[Bill Darlington]

First of all ..... bursting with jobs
I found 5, I would have thought bursting would be a good deal more, and bursting with investment, I'm not sure that accurate either, since the only visible investment is the new airborne hanger for which they are only a tenant , so I don't see much direct bursting investment
The Willis repair centre do not employ 100 workers in one single hangar
The south side is not open for business it has no tenants as yet, and as an average person I would imagine air cargo planes to be large proper DHL like cargo planes, don't think there's been many of those?
And the description of airborne colours is a bit over the top, they rent a couple of hangars to paint
The mayor describes Willis as a huge company, I imagine a huge company with 20,000 employees not 500
It's mainly about the numbers and words like bursting, it's just too much for me

[Bill Darlington]

Small mistake, Willis is referred to a a giant company not huge, ...so even larger, and they are mainly involved in leasing

[Grumpy1]

Bill is correct. It's very cleverly worded so perhaps more a question of what he doesnt say.
The heading to the feature includes reference to the "£25m Willis Village" that isnt happening so why mention that let alone the 100 jobs that curiously has reduced from the previous claim of 250?
The heading states £200m Business Park is "under construction" forgetting that contractors pulled off the incomplete site many months ago with not a single tenant since advertising started three years ago.
The heading also references the "2.5m cargo facility" that to the best of my knowledge hasn't had a single flight yet.
Being "AHEAD of our 10 year plan" fails to reference that the plan appeares to have been quickly abandoned without any public announcement although I am sure that Harrold will criticise us all and I assume also his supporters for not knowing.
It is interesting to note the impression that his divoted supporters have gained without knowing the facts by looking at their comments.

[SWBKCB]

The heading to the feature includes reference to the "£25m Willis Village" that isnt happening so why mention that let alone the 100 jobs that curiously has reduced from the previous claim of 250?

Is this confirmed or supposition? With regard to job numbers, haven't Willis also taken over a number of roles at the airport e.g. ground handling? Willis may be a sizeable company, but I've always been curious that they are taking on roles at MME that aren't anywhere else in their business.

[Harold77]

Grumpy, What were all them planes that have come in over the past year that carried 72 Tonnes of cargo last year. Equipment and staff were used to handle the cargo on and off the planes. So bit unfair to say the facility hasn't seen a plane.
The 10 year plan hasn't been abandoned at all. There has been updates to it, but certainly not abandoned. Revenue targets have been upgraded by £13m from the original plan. Is it that abandoning the plan.


Bill, Investment at the airport.

Terminal refurbished, new tenants moved in.
Offices built tenants moved in.
Upgrades to Hangar 1 & 2
Hang Four being built. Airbourne Colours may be just a tenant, but there is all the equipment and fitting out required.
Draken 361 built to allow Draken to expand their fleets.
Jet Blast/ Engine Test facility under construction.

Willis Aviation Services across all three operations (FBO/ Handling/ Maintenance) at the airport will employ a fair number across all shifts. Revenues for them in 2022 was over $2.6m
During 2023, Teesside Maintenance unit was transferred from Asset Management company and into the Aviation Services company. So all Teesside operations now fall under the Willis Aviation Services company.
Operations for Willis really ramped up during 2023, so we will have to wait until the 2023 Financial Year results are announced to see what staff numbers have grown to during 2023.

[SWBKCB]

Freight is very peaky - 58 of the 72 tonnes in three months, three months with nothing at all. Very much the position that we've seen from Nissan for many years.

Atr-72 carries about 8 tonne.

[Bill Darlington]

As Willis is taking on all operations, one has to ask what the 115 airport staff are doing all day,

[Cautious Optimist]

There are circa.100 Willis staff at MME currently, I also believe that's just the H2 operation but even if it includes the Jet Centre and ground handling it's still a correct statement

[Bill Darlington]

Is that 100 workers at the H2 refueling dept, sounds a lot.

[N707ZS]

Grumpy, What were all them planes that have come in over the past year that carried 72 Tonnes of cargo last year. Equipment and staff were used to handle the cargo on and off the planes. So bit unfair to say the facility hasn't seen a plane.
Unfortunately the freight comes of an aircraft with a forklift straight into a road vehicle and out of the gate. The same as it always did. The facility hasn't anything of note. The box on the photographs was leftover from Hangar 1. Oh, and Nissan flights are not new.

[Grumpy1]

"Unfortunately the freight comes of an aircraft with a forklift straight into a road vehicle and out of the gate. The same as it always did".
And disopointly, the Mayor plus and Harold already knew that........

[Harold77]

Unfortunately the freight comes of an aircraft with a forklift straight into a road vehicle and out of the gate. The same as it always did. The facility hasn't anything of note. The box on the photographs was leftover from Hangar 1. Oh, and Nissan flights are not new.

Does every truck going onto a ferry get scanned and searched, no they do not but still count towards port facility throughput. No difference here. Staff and equipment still used, even if it doesn't get put through the scanners or stored in the warehouse its still handled.

[SWBKCB]

Does every truck going onto a ferry get scanned and searched, no they do not but still count towards port facility throughput. No difference here. Staff and equipment still used, even if it doesn't get put through the scanners or stored in the warehouse its still handled.

You are absolutely right. So why the "build it and they will come" approach, spending millions of our money on the freight centre? You'd have thought there must have been some sort of information on what the market wanted?

[Grumpy1]

We had the occasional Nissan traffic and similar before millions were spent on the freight centre and we would still have the occasional flights even if we did not have the empty freight centre. What business, if any, has been attracted because of the freight centre?

[highwideandugly]

Rumours of Fed Ex moving to the airport have gone quiet..I’ve heard because no staff available to handle out of hours?

Also heard traffic has been turned away recently especially diversions ,training etc) due staffing and available parking…

Maybe more need to be put into the operational infrastructure..ATC, AFS Ops etc? But that is expensive!

Freight…flowers,fruit , wide bodies…was that Harold or the mayor?
Infrastructure..basically not up to scratch to handle that type of regular freight yet? Odd Nissan last minute charter the limit.
That tonnage through the airport is frankly pathetic!

Anyway a labour government will put the cat amongst the pigeons shortly!

[Harold77]

Freight…flowers,fruit , wide bodies…was that Harold or the mayor?

Airport press releases.

[N707ZS]

We had the occasional Nissan traffic and similar before millions were spent on the freight centre and we would still have the occasional flights even if we did not have the empty freight centre. What business, if any, has been attracted because of the freight centre?
The freight centre that evolved from a 1940s hangar.

[Harold77]

January CAA Stats 2024.

Terminal Passengers 12,015
Aircraft Movements 1,363

[highwideandugly]

Thoughts on figures..

194 departing passengers per day

Movements down
Amsterdam load factor hovering around the 50% mark
Aberdeen..ouch
Alicante the saviour increasing the monthly total just.
No cargo

Wonder what spin Benji Boy puts on that lot!

[Grumpy1]

Wonder what spin Benji Boy puts on that lot!

He will be busy rewriting the 10 year plan again as its important to report that we are "ahead" of expectations when there is an election due.

Oh, and movements dont count when they are declining but he will leave his representative on planet earth to try and justify the lack of cargo.

[P330]

Thoughts on figures..

194 departing passengers per day

Movements down
Amsterdam load factor hovering around the 50% mark
Aberdeen..ouch
Alicante the saviour increasing the monthly total just.
No cargo

Wonder what spin Benji Boy puts on that lot!

So, instead of just posting the negatives and the usual sarcasm - here is a more balanced assessment.
Movements down - Not ideal, but not a big issue either.
Amsterdam - Always quieter loads in January so for real comparison, compare to Jan 2023 and we're 28% up on prior year. That is excellent!
Aberdeen. This is a real mess right now and will be down for Feb and March too until we're comparing like for like. Market to Aberdeen is down and not what it was.
Alicante. Extra rotations mean this is 34% up.
Total Passengers. 12% up on prior year - so a good result.
Cargo - Nothing to report - clearly not doing anything material (yet).

As for Ben - He's a politician that will put spin on things. I hate that and it is beyond annoying. But constantly repeating the jibes just clutters the forum. We won't change him or politicians generally.

As for re-writing the business plan. I'd be surprised if that is happening, but let's not that get in the way of an opportunity for another sarcastic comment.

I have no issue with people posting facts, or indeed opinions or rumours. But the constant one sided angles and childlike jibes add nothing to the discussion.

[Grumpy1]

Must concede much of what P330 has said. We know that Lord H is a politician but when spin becomes misrepresentation that may be damaging the airport it is legitimate to call it out. Thought the business plan had already been revised from what was made public and what the taxpayer thinks they are getting so sarcasm is perhaps justified.

[P330]

Must concede much of what P330 has said. We know that Lord H is a politician but when spin becomes misrepresentation that may be damaging the airport it is legitimate to call it out. Thought the business plan had already been revised from what was made public and what the taxpayer thinks they are getting so sarcasm is perhaps justified.

Harold has answered that a few times and the updates were public (link already provided). Sarcasm is probably justified, once, maybe twice - its even funny. But doing it constantly, what does it add? When you've heard a joke 10 times, you probably don't laugh as much as you used to....

[N707ZS]

A question for users of the Aberdeen flight, is Friday the day most people would commute back to Teesside from Aberdeen?

[Grumpy1]

P330 again perhaps makes a valid observation. In the same way, constantly trying to talk up pretty crap statistics becomes tedious such as introducing the limited Nissan freight to pretend that the freight centre is performing.
Shall we all accept that this year is going to be another stagnant/disapointing one in terms of performance and if the opinion polls are correct we may soon have a new mayor (although I doubt it myself) with probably a new government so the goal posts may well and truly move soon.
Could soon be a case of better the devil you know.......

[P330]

P330 again perhaps makes a valid observation. In the same way, constantly trying to talk up pretty crap statistics becomes tedious such as introducing the limited Nissan freight to pretend that the freight centre is performing.
Shall we all accept that this year is going to be another stagnant/disapointing one in terms of performance and if the opinion polls are correct we may soon have a new mayor (although I doubt it myself) with probably a new government so the goal posts may well and truly move soon.
Could soon be a case of better the devil you know.......

Agree completely. I think this year, as it stands, is probably not going to be too exciting. Though that can change, positive or negative.

And you’re right about the mayor, and if we replicate his behaviour, just constantly calling out negatives, or falsehoods, then I think we lose the morale ground to call him out for doing exactly the same using positive language.

As for what happens if the mayor changes, we will just have to wait and see. Like him or not, he fights for the airport and a replacement mayor may tick all of our balance and ethics boxes, but could choose not to support the airport. Like you say, better the devil you know (maybe). 😉

[Harold77]

That opinion poll that was done was 1,000 people spread across Teesside, South & West Yorkshire. So how can they call the results when the survey incorporated large section from other areas of the country. Would have more believable if the survey was just from one area not three.


Movements down due to weather issues, can't do much with bad weather. Otherwise Movement figures would have been up.

I'm reckoning Passenger Figures will be up compared to last year. As Amsterdam are seeing extra flights on weekends during the summer timetable and with larger capacity aircraft being used. This will boost the figures a bit.

[highwideandugly]

Sorry Harold..missed that opinion pole..what was it and what did it say?

Btw ..sure weather affected all airports! How about Benji spending 5million plus and getting Cat 3 and lighting. And power back up..now that’s commitment!

[Harold77]

https://scontent-lhr6-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/430690910_10232259439370161_4741704873719356404_n.jpg?stp=cp 6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=wKJfuZ-82IkAX_jKR_9&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr6-2.xx&oh=00_AfBBm4UyDYT2m13K4sP57tmfF_sDuYinnGI-kBu7vE4jEw&oe=65FA44D3
That is the poll result that the media are running stories with. This poll had 1,000 people surveyed from Teesside, South & West Yorkshire in the one survey. There isn't even a Reform candidate stepped forward yet.

[Harold77]

Total Passengers. 12% up on prior year - so a good result.
Cargo - Nothing to report - clearly not doing anything material (yet).


There was a military cargo flight from Oslo, but must have been less than a Tonne, otherwise it would have appeared in the CAA stats.

[Grumpy1]

Think Harold is correct that it's a flawed poll. Surely the unpopular mayor will not get as much as 23% of the vote???
I'll get my coat.

[N707ZS]

Sorry Harold..missed that opinion pole..what was it and what did it say?

Btw ..sure weather affected all airports! How about Benji spending 5million plus and getting Cat 3 and lighting. And power back up..now that’s commitment!
Back to proper conversation!!! The lack of CATs is going to bite them in the ass if they start to get early morning arrivals. Newcastle will LOL.

[mmeman]

A question for users of the Aberdeen flight, is Friday the day most people would commute back to Teesside from Aberdeen?

I think the issue with Aberdeen on a Friday is that it is quite busy coming south, but not much demand for the northbound service. It seems that Aberdeen is not operating on various Fridays through March and April - but must be struggling from Newcastle too, as it looks like it has been cut to 1 flight a day Sunday to Friday, so pretty much the same frequency as Teesside.

[Harold77]

Logan have been cutting schedules all over the country, so just not a Teesside phenomenon.

[N707ZS]

I can see it being frustrating having to add three or more hours to your Friday journey if Loganair dump you at Newcastle.

[onion]

Think Harold is correct that it's a flawed poll. Surely the unpopular mayor will not get as much as 23% of the vote???
I'll get my coat.
What he is saying is some of those people in the survey are not eligible to vote in the mayoral election! Shall i get my coat?

Regarding CAT numbers.... yes it would be nice to have more but MME did perfectly fine back when they had early morning flughts/h24 flighs so not sure why it would be different now?
On a side note if you talk to people with experience MME has a fairly decent weather record but when they put the barrage in it did mean fog tended to come furth inland/upstream.

[SWBKCB]

Logan have been cutting schedules all over the country, so just not a Teesside phenomenon.

While that is correct, unless there are good operational reasons (e.g. getting crew/aircraft into the right place), good business practice would be to drop the weakest performing routes.

[Grumpy1]

On a side note if you talk to people with experience MME has a fairly decent weather record but when they put the barrage in it did mean fog tended to come furth inland/upstream.

And the decline in MME's previously excellent weather record coinsided with Brexit so I blame those Europeans.
I'll get my coat again.

[FlyMME]

Love him or hate him, announcement 7am tomorrow according to Ben on Facebook.

Finally confirmation of FedEx?

[highwideandugly]

Rumours Newcastle turned down 2 more Jet 2 based……could be?

[Bill Darlington]

The mayor's announcement tomorrow has to please all his devoted followers or it won't go down well.
A FedEx announcement will disappoint, needs to be BIG

[Harold77]

Could it be the Eastern base announcement for the Amsterdam job, as he hasn't mentioned it yet.

[Bill Darlington]

Ah, that sounds very possible,
but still a bit plain and simple, and not a Biggie

[Harold77]

Welcome news this morning. Capacity of nearly nearly 90 Tonnes of cargo per week, that over 4,600 Tonnes per year. The operation is to be based out of Hangar 3 with operations to begin in June.
So Air Operations to be based out of Hangar 3 and Road Operations to continue from Hangar 1, after 5 year leases agreed for both operations.


https://teesbusiness.co.uk/2024/03/18/teesside-airport-secures-five-year-fedex-freight-flights-deal/

[P330]

Indeed good news!

It would have seemed strange to promise more flights if BH wins an election and then deliver before.

Without seeing the detail, you would feel this is a more sustainable piece of business.

DTV movements quoting a 737 4 days week dropping in from Edinburgh and then onto Paris.

[SWBKCB]

Welcome news this morning. Capacity of nearly nearly 90 Tonnes of cargo per week, that over 4,600 Tonnes per year. The operation is to be based out of Hangar 3 with operations to begin in June.
So Air Operations to be based out of Hangar 3 and Road Operations to continue from Hangar 1, after 5 year leases agreed for both operations.


https://teesbusiness.co.uk/2024/03/18/teesside-airport-secures-five-year-fedex-freight-flights-deal/

Good news for MME. Fed Ex did 400t inbound and 525 tonnes outbound out of NCL last year - don't forget it's a combined flight and FedEx freight typically isn't that dense

[N707ZS]

I see there is no inbound freight times so far on a morning only outbound on a night. Listed on the movements site.

Could Newcastle still take the morning flight and day stop?

[highwideandugly]

Would that be cost effective?

Another rumour going around was Newcastle needed the parking slot for an TUI and possible Jet 2 aircraft? So maybe wouldn’t/didn’t want to compete with Benji-boys incentives?
The Fed Ex just blocked a whole stand all day?

[Bill Darlington]

Good news for MME. Fed Ex did 400t inbound and 525 tonnes outbound out of NCL last year - don't forget it's a combined flight and FedEx freight typically isn't that dense
It's good news for the airport/staff, but you say around 400 tonnes a year, but Harold mentioned 4600, what is MME likely to handle, 400 doesn't sound like a profitable amount.
his supporters seem to be happy, but not so sure that the average holiday maker will be very interested. But it's better than before.
I'm surprised he said nothing about new jobs coming???

​​

[SWBKCB]

The figures I have used are from the CAA stats for Newcastle, the figure quoted by H77 is, I presume, if the 4 flights per week were operating at maximum capacity (I haven't checked the figures) - that's unlikely as I explained in my earlier post. I doubt whether the agreement with FedEx is based on the quantity carried anyway.

[Bill Darlington]

Many thanks for your kind reply, so it sounds like about 9 or 10 tonnes a week in and out, doesn't sound profitable.
The mayor just can't help exaggerating, claiming FedEx are the largest when UPS and DHL are larger, and 8 UPS flights a week, that works out at about...3 tonnes on each flight , surely that's not economical , or am I missing something.?{

[highwideandugly]

Split loads?

[P330]

Many thanks for your kind reply, so it sounds like about 9 or 10 tonnes a week in and out, doesn't sound profitable.
The mayor just can't help exaggerating, claiming FedEx are the largest when UPS and DHL are larger, and 8 UPS flights a week, that works out at about...3 tonnes on each flight , surely that's not economical , or am I missing something.?{

Not like you Bill to turn a good news story into another doom laden post? :hmm:

Not sure how accurate this is, so don't shoot the messenger, but on www.statista.com, it shows in the Americas at least in 2021, Fedex had 44% market share, UPS had 33% and DHL had 20%. I suspect though the figures could be different in Europe or if taken through a global lens. And is 'big' defined as revenue, market share, flights, tonnes, profitability, employees? All could yield different rankings.

This is undoubtedly good news for the airport and builds the portfolio. None of us at this stage have any idea if it will be profitable or not but you would expect that it should be, or will be eventually.

Will holiday makers care? At the headline level, probably not. But if this portfolio build secures a long term airport, there is an increased chance of holidaymakers having a local airport to fly from and they are more likely to care about that.

I can imagine a birthday party in Bill's household. Everyone singing and wishing many happy returns to the individual when Bill joins in..."Ah but, you're another year closer to dying now aren't you."..... :)

[Harold77]

The Airport's Press Release
The operation will provide capacity for 196,000 lbs of cargo to be transported through the airport each week.

So that equates to about 11 Tonnes per flight and just under 89 Tonnes a week, times 52 weeks puts that at just over 4,600 Tonnes per year.

The 737 can carry about 20 Tonnes, so the press release is saying half the capacity on the flight for Teesside.

[N707ZS]

Harold, don't forget there is only 4 flights with Teesside cargo, so on your calculations thats 44t. I don't think you will get anything inbound from Edinburgh.

[ATNotts]

The Airport's Press Release
The operation will provide capacity for 196,000 lbs of cargo to be transported through the airport each week.


Does anyone (apart from our American cousins) still weigh cargo in lbs? I guess its expressed in pounds because it gives a more impressive figure than kgs!

Glad to see you did your calculations on tonnes.

[Bill Darlington]

In Global data UPS shows as having the most revenue with DHL second, I'm sure there's a way of interrupting FedEx as the largest
I can see this as a much bigger win for FedEx a sensible move, for them, this is a win, win for Houchen, he gets a bit more revenue and lots of glory ,

[Harold77]

Harold, don't forget there is only 4 flights with Teesside cargo, so on your calculations thats 44t. I don't think you will get anything inbound from Edinburgh.

There will be inbound cargo for sure as it is feeding into a large area from Teesside. Distribution will be up towards Tyne, Wear & Northumberland, across to Cumbria and the Lakes and down to Yorkshire and the Humber with everywhere in between. What I guess the journey would be Paris - Edinburgh - Teesside - Paris rotation. So Teesside allocation can be on board from Paris.

[Bill Darlington]

Not like you Bill to turn a good news story into another doom laden post? :hmm:

Not sure how accurate this is, so don't shoot the messenger, but on www.statista.com, it shows in the Americas at least in 2021, Fedex had 44% market share, UPS had 33% and DHL had 20%. I suspect though the figures could be different in Europe or if taken through a global lens. And is 'big' defined as revenue, market share, flights, tonnes, profitability, employees? All could yield different rankings.

This is undoubtedly good news for the airport and builds the portfolio. None of us at this stage have any idea if it will be profitable or not but you would expect that it should be, or will be eventually.

Will holiday makers care? At the headline level, probably not. But if this portfolio build secures a long term airport, there is an increased chance of holidaymakers having a local airport to fly from and they are more likely to care about that.

I can imagine a birthday party in Bill's household. Everyone singing and wishing many happy returns to the individual when Bill joins in..."Ah but, you're another year closer to dying now aren't you."..... :)
The last part of this comment was not easy to read , aimed at someone who has a seriously damaged heart and an ICD implant,

[N707ZS]

There will be inbound cargo for sure as it is feeding into a large area from Teesside. Distribution will be up towards Tyne, Wear & Northumberland, across to Cumbria and the Lakes and down to Yorkshire and the Humber with everywhere in between. What I guess the journey would be Paris - Edinburgh - Teesside - Paris rotation. So Teesside allocation can be on board from Paris.
There is in an inbound flight, the aircraft comes from Edinburgh on the evening leavers Teesside and goes to Paris. There's is no return leg unless the freight sits at Edinburgh all day.

[Cautious Optimist]

There seems to be an undercurrent of criticism in the lack of an inbound flight which is totally unjustified, I think we need to view this as A) a new high for the airport in air cargo ops and B) one in the eye for Newcastle (in theory - providing FedEx don't launch the MAN-NCL-CGN ATR service they have slots for, which would defeat the object of them moving here in the first place).

It's also worth noting that the bulk of the cargo on the existing service into NCL found it's way into our Hangar 1 anyway.

[N707ZS]

I don't see it as a criticism. Its just the point that an inbound flight does not exist when it did at Newcastle. And where is the cargo going to go from that flight.
Yes it is great that we will have an outbound flight on four days a week with a split load from Edinburgh.

[SWBKCB]

There seems to be an undercurrent of criticism in the lack of an inbound flight which is totally unjustified

Does anybody know what the full rotations is? There seems to be an assumption that it is CDG-EDI-MME-CDG with a daystop on EDI - is that correct? Doubt whether EDI is looking forward to another daystopper over Summer. At NCL over the past two years inbound has been 75-80% of outbound.

in theory - providing FedEx don't launch the MAN-NCL-CGN ATR service they have slots for, which would defeat the object of them moving here in the first place

Suppose that depends on what the object is? Doubt whether anybody here knows what drives FedEx's operations - routings have chopped and changed, for example tonights NCL flight is going to CDG via EMA (!?)

It's also worth noting that the bulk of the cargo on the existing service into NCL found it's way into our Hangar 1 anyway.

In which case why did it take so long, or is timing everything?

[highwideandugly]

It is strange though..4 outbounds..where is the inbound freight going to?

As an aside..2 scheduled departures today..and tomorrow..pick up over Easter ..or an awful lot of strain is being put on the ancillary work at the airport to generate income?

[Harold77]

Does anyone (apart from our American cousins) still weigh cargo in lbs? I guess its expressed in pounds because it gives a more impressive figure than kgs!


The aviation industry still works in lbs.

lbs of fuel
lbs of thrust

So it is just natural when they describe cargo loads in lbs in the air industry.

[SWBKCB]

The aviation industry still works in lbs.

lbs of fuel
lbs of thrust

So it is just natural when they describe cargo loads in lbs in the air industry.

So naturally you can provide examples of lbs being used to describe cargo loads rather than thrust or fuel capacity or dubious attempts to impress the public with unrealistic big numbers?

Edinburgh Airport use tonnes - look under facts and figures:

https://corporate.edinburghairport.com/doing-business-with-us/cargo

FedEx themselves use number of packages or tonnes

https://newsroom.fedex.com/newsroom/europe-english/fedex-meeting-increased-import-demands-with-new-cutting-edge-import-system-at-its-cargo-facility-at-stansted

And of course the CAA reports are in tonnes

God loves a trier...

[Grumpy1]

God may well love a trier but doesn't the good book also say something about dishonesty?
Aviation fuel is ordered and supplied in tonnes and every bill of lading, manifest, condition of carriage or transit document that I have seen in the UK and internationally references tonnes. For Harold's benefit, that's a metric ton.
This wasn't one of of his better tall tales.

[ATNotts]

The aviation industry still works in lbs.

lbs of fuel
lbs of thrust

So it is just natural when they describe cargo loads in lbs in the air industry.
Except they don't, except for one renegade country, the USA.

Air cargo rates are always per kg or a volume conversion based on cc per kg, used to be generally 6000cc per kg when I was last involved but I thing some carriers might use 4000 or 5000cc per kg.

Is it really true that aircraft made and certified outside the USA still weigh in lbs, and calculate engine power in lbs rather than kN. Genuine question.

[highwideandugly]

Facebook rumours say flights to Memphis now from the airport..another of Benji porkies ?

[Atlantic Explorer]

Facebook rumours say flights to Memphis now from the airport..another of Benji porkies ?
Well somebody’s telling porkies!

[tigertanaka]

Facebook rumours say flights to Memphis now from the airport..another of Benji porkies ?

Do you have a link for that? I can't see anything on his FB page.

[SWBKCB]

At a guess somebodies found a routing via the CDG hub and assumed it's a direct flight. Don't think FedEx have any non-hub flight from Europe to Memphis. Let's see how the Paris route goes, eh?

[highwideandugly]

Yeh it was just a ‘spotters’ link I think…

[P330]

Yeh it was just a ‘spotters’ link I think…

So, why suggest the Mayor was telling lies then?

[Beafer]

Mayor election politics - airport mentioned.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24204421.labour-deny-claims-darlington-conservatives-tees-mayor-race/

[Bill Darlington]

https://newsroom.fedex.com/fedex-express-uk-rolls-out-newly-designed-e-cargo-bikes-in-london

Brilliant FedEx city delivery vehicle
170 kg load and 45 mile range

[highwideandugly]

Sorry..benji doesn’t tell untruths!

I never actually said it was him..I wondered if it was!
Trouble is sometimes it’s hard to tell what is cult propaganda and what is actually happening at the airport..

I know..sorry..keep politics off the thread..

[N707ZS]

At a guess somebodies found a routing via the CDG hub and assumed it's a direct flight. Don't think FedEx have any non-hub flight from Europe to Memphis. Let's see how the Paris route goes, eh?
Perhaps someone wanted "to return something to sender".

[GrahamK]

No KLMin April then, all flights operated by Eastern Airways E190. Is the lease just for a month?

[Harold77]

No KLMin April then, all flights operated by Eastern Airways E190. Is the lease just for a month?

KLM are wet leasing E190's and crews from Eastern for the whole summer timetable. Increased weekend services as a result.

[SouthernAlliance]

KLM are wet leasing E190's and crews from Eastern for the whole summer timetable. Increased weekend services as a result.

Increased services and Eastern Airways don’t usually go together!

[Jamesair1]

Eastern 190's are also doing one of KLM.s daily flights to NCL. from 1st April

[Atlantic Explorer]

Increased services and Eastern Airways don’t usually go together!

Indeed, when I read that I thought to myself; what could possibly go wrong?!

[Atlantic Explorer]

Eastern 190's are also doing one of KLM.s daily flights to NCL. from 1st April

What an appropriate date to start the operation!

[Jamesair1]

What an appropriate date to start the operation!
I like that....Ah well, with each aircraft doing 8 sectors a day, we shall see !!!!!

[Beafer]

Looks like the Mayor or public are going to pay the £2.73m legal fees for the spat. Judge makes a ruling.
Wonder if the mayor will ask his special friends to help pay the bill?

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/judge-rules-stdc-teesworks-pay-28900959

He won't have much money left... Time to sit in the Lords falling asleep.

[Grumpy1]

There was a time when a crass and entirely foreseeable error of judgement like this would result in a politician resigning..... but not our Ben. And not a word about blowing £2.73m of taxpayers money on his FB page.

[Beafer]

There was a time when a crass and entirely foreseeable error of judgement like this would result in a politician resigning..... but not our Ben. And not a word about blowing £2.73m of taxpayers money on his FB page.


Well said Grumpy, the current Mayor will be out at the next election, and then the investigations will start!

[Bill Darlington]

The court stated that the STDC was responsible for it's own costs plus 80% of PD Port's, a total of around £5 million, unfortunately this is all public taxpayers money, all because the STDC refused to a reasonable deal , Houchen's choice, therefore he is at fault. It was interesting at the trial that it was Julie Gillespie, ( the STDC CEO, with her _£170k salary plus perks) who was in court.... Houchen was obviously busy on his social media so could not attend

[SWBKCB]

An interesting read - I've always been baffled by Stobart's position at MME.

https://www.teesvalleymonitor.com/teesside-airport-bad-governance-and-plan-b-part-1

[highwideandugly]

Yes just read that…looking forward to part 2.

Until the airport and the mayor has complete transparency and open frank discussions , I feel this thread will continue to seek out the truth rightly or wrongly..at the expense of potential great developments.. ?

[highwideandugly]

Oh dear..how long before people get wise to this Eastern sub charter and give the main Amsterdam route the elbow?

So far sadly..its going as many people prophesied!

[Bill Darlington]

Yes a very interesting article, I am also looking forward to part 2
I fear that nobody will know what's going on until there is new management, it's odd that the councillors are kept in the dark. The big question is will Houchen remain mayor, looking at comments on his Facebook posts they are very positive, he certainly has a solid following and remains popular but is that enough, my feeling is that he will scrap in, as someone said before, it won't be the votes that he receives rather than the people who don't want him that don't bother to vote .
The mayor is very active on social media posting many times a day, he really is trying

[Harold77]

An interesting read - I've always been baffled by Stobart's position at MME.

https://www.teesvalleymonitor.com/teesside-airport-bad-governance-and-plan-b-part-1


Stobart/ Esken's financial position was a real cause of concern. So it was a right decision to part ways, especially since Esken fell into administration two weeks ago.

[Grumpy1]

Harold. You have already been called out by a journalist on another thread for making up this story when it was explained to you why you could not know what you have invented so why have you repeated your tale in this forum?
Only Harold would try and link a business desision going back 3 years with events a couple of weeks ago. Guess that's another one for the list!

[Harold77]

Grumpy what on earth are you on about. What journalist has called me out?

Have you followed the timeline of events of Stobart/ Esken, then you can see where things were heading and when.

[Grumpy1]

Stop it Harold. A local journalist told you "you've made this up" and you responded so you know very well.
I dont think the group wants to witness another pointless attempt to change history so let's leave it at that.

[onion]

Stop it Harold. A local journalist told you "you've made this up" and you responded so you know very well.
I dont think the group wants to witness another pointless attempt to change history so let's leave it at that.

Not sure of the context of "you've made this up" but i actually think Harold is on to something if that's what he said.
Just look at the loses for Esken - I know its Wikipedia but it simplifies the information - their decline has happened over a number of years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esken

[Harold77]

Stop it Harold. A local journalist told you "you've made this up" and you responded so you know very well.
I dont think the group wants to witness another pointless attempt to change history so let's leave it at that.

If your talking about on the Monitor page. Then I am calling a political activist out, when things aren't right.

[Grumpy1]

Onion, for context, his latest tale was that "Esken's exit was because they we imploding into financial oblivion" so "it was agreed to part ways so that the Airport wasnt dragged down" and "that to safeguard Teesside it was agreed for Esken to part ways".
Will leave it to you to decide if he has sources only available to him who now contradict the explanation offered at the time as pointed out by the journalist who reminded him that they were contractualy paid £1.5 million by the airport when leaving.

[Harold77]

When a headline says it all.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/group-behind-collapsed-stobart-air-21152800

[onion]

Onion, for context, his latest tale was that "Esken's exit was because they we imploding into financial oblivion" so "it was agreed to part ways so that the Airport wasnt dragged down" and "that to safeguard Teesside it was agreed for Esken to part ways".
Will leave it to you to decide if he has sources only available to him who now contradict the explanation offered at the time as pointed out by the journalist who reminded him that they were contractualy paid £1.5 million by the airport when leaving.

From what I can see a loss of £350m in 3 years is an implosion.
£1.5m is childs play incomparison to losses of that amount.
Don't think there was any explanation at the time as to why they parted company, but a business that is making huge losses and likely not to be around shortly (at the time) is something anybody would want to avoid unless your going to pick the bones of that business. Maybe they took the £1.5m to pay creditors in the short term.
Nobody knows what the contractural obligations were of either side.

[N707ZS]

Our friends at the movements site have announced that the Alpha taxiway from Britannia corner is to be resurfaced and a narrow point near the control tower is to be made back to full width.

[SWBKCB]

Not sure of the context of "you've made this up" but i actually think Harold is on to something if that's what he said.
Just look at the loses for Esken - I know its Wikipedia but it simplifies the information - their decline has happened over a number of years.

So probably not the best choice in the first place?

Nobody knows what the contractural obligations were of either side.

Other than the presence of the fragrant Ms Willard and new shirts for the airport staff, what did Stobart contribute?

Is it also correct that their share in the aiport never appeared in their accounts as an assett (or as a liability if they had paid nothing at the time) until after they pulled out?

[Grumpy1]

Don't think there was any explanation at the time as to why they parted company....
Onion address the point and the press report certainly does not explain, so not a good idea to invent a reason and report it publicly to try and undermine a considered article that does not suit your politics. You then try a justify your invention by suggesting that only you know what the rest of us dont know but decline to respond to requests that you reveal you sources at the airport or Esken, or even confirm that you have any actual sources.

[onion]

Don't think there was any explanation at the time as to why they parted company....
Onion address the point and the press report certainly does not explain, so not a good idea to invent a reason and report it publicly to try and undermine a considered article that does not suit your politics. You then try a justify your invention by suggesting that only you know what the rest of us dont know but decline to respond to requests that you reveal you sources at the airport or Esken, or even confirm that you have any actual sources.
First of all I'm not on trial here so you may want to reword your approach!
Secondly are we sure that the article is accurate? I ve not read it but journalist have been known to lie, embellish or just get it wrong!
Thirdly I ve not invented a reason per say I ve provided evidence that Esken were in trouble and provided a view point based on that..... probably no different to the article you mention, maybe I'm an investigative journalist now?
As I said before nobody knows what the contractural obligations were of either side and that can come down to breaking that contract!

[onion]

So probably not the best choice in the first place?



Other than the presence of the fragrant Ms Willard and new shirts for the airport staff, what did Stobart contribute?

Is it also correct that their share in the aiport never appeared in their accounts as an assett (or as a liability if they had paid nothing at the time) until after they pulled out?
Possibly not the best choice but what metric was looked at we don't know.... they certainly had sucssess at Southend for a period pre Covid. Were the Esken books looked at and the due diligence on them looked into I don't know but accounts are filed after the end of the reporting year.

I don't know what they contributed, it could be that they were there to chase airlines and the day to day was left to the wider staff. It could be they were hands on from the start. Maybe any staff members on here could provide some insight.

Regarding how it was reported as an asset in Esken books i don't know, haven't looked that deep.... I haven't even checked to see what class of shares they were and what rights were attached to them!

[Grumpy1]

I am not disagreeing with Onion. My comments are addressed at Harold who, not for the first time, has claimed to have his inside knowledge that is not available to the rest of us and he knows of the thinking of the Airport and Esken boards three years ago. So agree, it's not Onion who is on trial. Also agree very much that journalists are often very wrong but attempting to undermine an article that doesnt fit your narrative by inventing an alternative history is potentially damaging to the airport.

[ATNotts]

Just in an idle moment I was looking at the posting stats per airport and see that with 3,400 plusTeesside is way ahead of major airports including BHX, EDI and LGW and only a little behind MAN.

Should the word "Hamsterwheel" the added to the thread header?

Same could be said for SOU and SEN to some extent!

[SWBKCB]

Just in an idle moment I was looking at the posting stats per airport and see that with 3,400 plusTeesside is way ahead of major airports including BHX, EDI and LGW and only a little behind MAN.



Maybe because those airports haven't gone through the transformation MME has, and certainly not in the same manner.

[DC3 Dave]

Maybe because those airports haven't gone through the transformation MME has, and certainly not in the same manner.

As with SEN there is a clear divide between those who believe the airport has little or no potential and those who believe the opposite.

I always look forward to new MME posts because, for me, there is always something of the night going on.

[ATNotts]

Maybe because those airports haven't gone through the transformation MME has, and certainly not in the same manner.

I get that but the recurring (hamsterwheel) is the "The mayor's a crook" or otherwise which reads me like a "Durham Politics" thread than an aviation / airport related one.

The argument quite rightly goes along the lines of "if you aren't interested then don't read it" but the soap opera is well worth dipping into occasionally, in the almost forlorn hope that some real interesting news will surface with regard to development of aviation related business at the airport.

[SWBKCB]

"Durham Politics"? You are confusing this with an old thread... :rolleyes:

[P330]

I get that but the recurring (hamsterwheel) is the "The mayor's a crook" or otherwise which reads me like a "Durham Politics" thread than an aviation / airport related one.

The argument quite rightly goes along the lines of "if you aren't interested then don't read it" but the soap opera is well worth dipping into occasionally, in the almost forlorn hope that some real interesting news will surface with regard to development of aviation related business at the airport.

I agree ATN. I'm hoping that there is some real airport news to talk about soon rather than the usual soap opera hamster wheel of rinse and repeat non-info.

Was talking to someone within the industry today and they said they were hoping to hear of new routes soon - (whether that is the Malaga/Tenerife as promised by the mayor or something else - I don't know).

I wonder at what point the Eastern performance at MME will become newsworthy or start affecting confidence/loads?

[Harold77]

Calling out inaccuracies of articles that was made by a political party activist because they don't like the Mayor's party was required, hence my comments on their thread.

I am a political neutral, but if things that are said that need calling out on any side, then I'll call them out.

As for no mention of Teesside in Esken's accounts. Teesside was featured in the Accounts of Southend Airport.

You can decipher reasoning from how articles and press releases are made, plus what headlines are made and own research. As which some have pointed out above.

Also there were mentions in comments on social media.

But if you don't look, you don't see and find out things.

It is easy to find things if you look for yourself.

Just like yourself Grumpy, I called out your comments over the years. What was it you were shouting and dancing from the rooftops all last year. Oh yes, "the airport was losing more than a million pounds a month" when clearly it wasn't and when the figures came out proved my point it was no where near losing over a million pounds a month. So you needed calling out back then.

It's not rocket science to see how the airport is performing. You can calculate a fair chunk of stuff as it is in the public domain, so you can get a good idea of where the airport is at and how it is doing.

[SWBKCB]

Teesside was featured in the Accounts of Southend Airport.

What value was it given?

[onion]

What value was it given?
I haven't looked but usually it is given as the share price value x the number of shares. So if they had 25 shares at £1 each it ll be down as £25. They don't add the true value of a Limited company share into the accounts usually.

[highwideandugly]

Moving forward…notice the airport technically closed tonight for high power engine runs..Been a few times recently (inc. an unanticipated closure due damage to airfield lighting)

How .
I wonder does this fit in with an operational airport…available at all times..to all traffic? Or will someone have to take a back seat?

[Harold77]

Moving forward…notice the airport technically closed tonight for high power engine runs..Been a few times recently (inc. an unanticipated closure due damage to airfield lighting)

How .
I wonder does this fit in with an operational airport…available at all times..to all traffic? Or will someone have to take a back seat?

https://www.developmentmanagement.stockton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=S2U0AKPKL8P00

There is a jet blast test facility being built. So there will be an area away from the runway to perform engine runs in the future.

[Harold77]

Our friends at the movements site have announced that the Alpha taxiway from Britannia corner is to be resurfaced and a narrow point near the control tower is to be made back to full width.

That is certainly going to help things along with traffic levels increasing, as no need to back track down runway first.

[Harold77]

Was talking to someone within the industry today and they said they were hoping to hear of new routes soon - (whether that is the Malaga/Tenerife as promised by the mayor or something else - I don't know).

Malaga and Tenerife are certainly on the cards. There are more irons in the fire just waiting to be pulled out and may be a few surprises. Clues are out there if know where and how to look. It is a jack in the box moment, you wind the key and wait for it to spring out the box.

[N707ZS]

https://www.developmentmanagement.stockton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=S2U0AKPKL8P00

There is a jet blast test facility being built. So there will be an area away from the runway to perform engine runs in the future.

They seem to have given up on that at the moment.

[Harold77]

They seem to have given up on that at the moment.

Driven past at dinnertime the area of it cleared with piles of earth on the eastern flank built up and some equipment parked up on it, didn't quite make out what the equipment was.

[Grumpy1]

Malaga and Tenerife are certainly on the cards. There are more irons in the fire just waiting to be pulled out and may be a few surprises. Clues are out there if know where and how to look. It is a jack in the box moment, you wind the key and wait for it to spring out the box.

Based on what the mayor has been repeating I think we know that a deal has probably been done for Malaga and Tenerife but does anybody seriously believe that the airline will walk away if we dont vote for Ben unless there is another of his secret subsidies.
Lost count of how many times Harrold has told us that the clues are out there and we should expect a surprise if you know how to look but then nothing happens, so go on, stick your neck out, tell us all what the clues actually are and how we should be looking please???

[Harold77]

Grumpy, you say you never have time to look at things, so what's the point. You don't seem to be able to do cryptic or riddles either.

It is a case of having wide eyes and ears, scanning allsorts of areas for information. There is no one stop shop provision of information but a gathering of information and able to see patterns emerge. If you know how to find the signals you can piece together information from various sources and work out what is coming up. Even looking and watching peoples body language and facial expressions can give lots of information without saying what they are hiding. Add that to all snippets of information and you find the plan. There's many ways to be able to gain information.

But you want the information yesterday instead of being patient and waiting for it to be disclosed.
Some snippets have been disclosed from various sources but you have dismissed them because it is not all the info mentioned at once so must be making things up. Some things are in plane sight, whilst some stuff is cryptic. It is knowing how to piece together the bits.

[onion]

That is certainly going to help things along with traffic levels increasing, as no need to back track down runway first.
If they are only reinstating the taxi way to the original width it'll help a bit but unfortunately nothing bigger than the large Embraers will use it, A320s and 737 -800 will not be able to.
Largest I ve seen round there were DC9s, F100s 737-500s and occasionally a herc.

[Robert-Ryan]

Harold, do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look? :ugh:

[Atlantic Explorer]

Grumpy, you say you never have time to look at things, so what's the point. You don't seem to be able to do cryptic or riddles either.

It is a case of having wide eyes and ears, scanning allsorts of areas for information. There is no one stop shop provision of information but a gathering of information and able to see patterns emerge. If you know how to find the signals you can piece together information from various sources and work out what is coming up. Even looking and watching peoples body language and facial expressions can give lots of information without saying what they are hiding. Add that to all snippets of information and you find the plan. There's many ways to be able to gain information.

But you want the information yesterday instead of being patient and waiting for it to be disclosed.
Some snippets have been disclosed from various sources but you have dismissed them because it is not all the info mentioned at once so must be making things up. Some things are in plane sight, whilst some stuff is cryptic. It is knowing how to piece together the bits.

Dear god, is this some sort of wind up? Did you actually read what you wrote on this post before hitting send? This is just pure fantasy fiction. I’ve no other words for this waffle.

[highwideandugly]

Harold..I’m sure this is your cut and paste from the previous two years ?

It’s no secret that benji has been after a Malaga for sometime..so will be no big surprise when it’s announced twice a week next summer.

Wonder how much the resurfacing is costing and which budget that will come out of?

I agree with Onion..needed to be a bit wider and maybe stronger to be of significant use.

[FlyMME]

Harold, I think you get a hard time in here an Di generally enjoy your posts but post like that one do you absolutely no favours. It's almost a carbon copy of a post from a year ago and nothing has been announced since.

Seems certain Tenerife and Malaga to be added next summer - but from what I can see not too many hints on anything else. Unless you count Ben replying to every comment on Facebook requesting flights.

[SWBKCB]

Reading the comment on the Teesside movements website, the primary purpose of the work is to give access to the new Airbourne Colours hangar, with any additional benefit to the rest of the airport a bonus.

[onion]

Reading the comment on the Teesside movements website, the primary purpose of the work is to give access to the new Airbourne Colours hangar, with any additional benefit to the rest of the airport a bonus.
Yes but if that is to give access to that hangar that really restricts the aircraft that can use that hangar, I maybe wrong but in all my time I ve never seen anything bigger than a 737-500 go round there. If you want access to there for A320s etc is where the redesignation to a 'taxilane' comes in?

[SWBKCB]

Holding point A1 is at the end of 23, so to get to the new hangar, you would get to it from there rather than from the terminal Main apron down past Draken?

Not sure the taxilanes bit is relevant here. The FAA define a taxilane as "Taxilane - The portion of the aircraft parking area used for access between taxi ways and aircraft parking positions. Taxilanes are located outside the movement area. Taxilanes provide access from taxiways (usually an apron taxiway) to airplane parking positions and other terminal areas"

[onion]

Holding point A1 is at the end of 23, so to get to the new hangar, you would get to it from there rather than from the terminal Main apron down past Draken?

Not sure the taxilanes bit is relevant here. The FAA define a taxilane as "Taxilane - The portion of the aircraft parking area used for access between taxi ways and aircraft parking positions. Taxilanes are located outside the movement area. Taxilanes provide access from taxiways (usually an apron taxiway) to airplane parking positions and other terminal areas"
Is the taxiway from A1 to Britannia corner wider then?

I've read the definition for a taxilane and don't really get it! It seems its outside of normal controlled moving (apron, taxiways) areas. So aircraft have right of way but doesn't require as much input from ATC.

[Bill Darlington]

I have carefully observed The Mayor's body language and I can definitely confirm that he is convinced that Málaga and Tenerife are coming
if they don't he'll look pretty stupid, will he be around to celebrate and pat himself on the back
And the budget for resurfacing and alterations will obviously come from the Mayor's magic money tree

[Grumpy1]

I must remind Bill that the mayor and his special friend told us last year year that additional routes had been agreed and even told us when they were going to be announced but they weren't. Looking stupid last year did not reduce the output from either of them although I have to agree that it's probably true this time round but dont forget that the evil Labour mayor will cancel them so that he can build houses on the runway so its all academic.

[Bill Darlington]

Ah , yes, Grumpy, but I've invested in a new crystal ball, and I've seen the Mayor holding up a Tenerife sign, and in the background was a gentleman holding a houses for sale notice ,

[N707ZS]

Yes but if that is to give access to that hangar that really restricts the aircraft that can use that hangar, I maybe wrong but in all my time I ve never seen anything bigger than a 737-500 go round there. If you want access to there for A320s etc is where the redesignation to a 'taxilane' comes in?

The last notable regular use was Air Europa with 737-400s. The restriction near the fire station can be seen on google earth. Hatched area on the Southern edge.

[Harold77]

I must remind Bill that the mayor and his special friend told us last year year that additional routes had been agreed and even told us when they were going to be announced but they weren't. Looking stupid last year did not reduce the output from either of them although I have to agree that it's probably true this time round but dont forget that the evil Labour mayor will cancel them so that he can build houses on the runway so its all academic.

If Boeing had delivered what they were contracted to deliver, we wouldn't be having this conversation as enough aircraft would have been in the fleet. But you dismiss that notion.

[FlyMME]

But that does not ring true, Ryanair expanded in lots of places? If the loads were good enough it would have been done already

[Robert-Ryan]

If Boeing had delivered what they were contracted to deliver, we wouldn't be having this conversation as enough aircraft would have been in the fleet. But you dismiss that notion.
You were adequately disproven in this matter

[N707ZS]

I think Harold must be in line for an award for the most duff guff on Pprune in one day.

[Harold77]

I have carefully observed The Mayor's body language and I can definitely confirm that he is convinced that Málaga and Tenerife are coming

Who said anything about the Mayor.

[SWBKCB]

Was it MOL? Doubt whether anybody outside RYR really knows what's going on. The Ryanair website says they have a fleet of 600 a/c, so the fact that they can't squeeze in what would probably be a handful of extra flights a week just shows were MME sits in the pecking order.

[Grumpy1]

Especially when at the same time that we were hoping for new routes, RYR introduced many new routes arround Europe. If the shortage of aircraft was remotely the reason for new routes not mareialising we can be confident the the mayor would be telling us this.
The lack of aircraft appears to be another invention to deflect from the embarrassment of reporting new routes that it appears were never going to happen so perhaps we should not even be exploring this in any serious manner.

[highwideandugly]

No doubt Harold is right..Malaga and maybe Tenerife will be announced for 2025…

The lord has decreed it…so it will happen…at what cost? Who knows!

[Grumpy1]

Although he has previously fibbed, lttle doubt this time that it's a given for 2025 if he is re-elected but what if he is given the boot? Is it a done deal (as we were previously told for 2024) and the mayor is being mischievous in implying that the airport will only get new routes if he is voted back or is it genuinly subject to him being mayor again so will or should an airline allow themselves to become involved in local politics.

[Harold77]

Could it be a case that of a firm indication has been given as to when flights will start. Which is usually the case. Only a month to go till we find out the result for sure.

So for the Airport regarding the Mayoral election.

Conservatives Ben Houchen, has done lots and lots of posts about the airport.

Labour Chris McEwan, has done two posts about the airport. Says his Dad worked as Customs at airport and says supportive. Has visited and chatted with management.

Lib Dems Simon Thorley, one post about airport, but as an attack Houchen's actions. Doesn't give his verdict about the airport. But on a local political social media group said he would never have spent the money on the airport in the first place.

[Grumpy1]

No idea what the Labour bloke actually stands for about anything tbh and I guess the Lib Dems want the airport returning to nature although dont actually know that. Problem is that as far as the general public are concerned, the flight numbers at the airport are pathetic with destinations of little interest to most so the reported pumping of yet more money into the "loss making" airport is probably a vote looser but not sure that Lord H has worked that out yet.

[Harold77]

Here is the latest TVCA Medium Term Financial Plan.
The budget presents all forecast funding and expenditure for the plan period.

https://scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/434487324_388514194108679_469786651681945262_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1 09&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=5SkJ8-rP1OEAb4zI-QQ&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&oh=03_AdWhwQCCy6DVBk8EG-v_yRlTEdEYMyVxhG7CbHLpSl3M3Q&oe=663A7CB2

[N707ZS]

A bit of real news for once from the Northern Echo. The restriction of the Village end must have forced Willis to look again. With the mayoral election due, we are spared politics BS.
Details added to Teesside Airport repair hangar plans | The Northern Echo (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24228746.details-added-teesside-airport-repair-hangar-plans/)

[SWBKCB]

This isn't the Willis complex though, is it? It's the Airbourne Colours plus one hangar down near the railway they got government funding for.