British Airways - 2

[Munnyspinner]

BA has funding in place for all the new aircraft currently scheduled for delivery over the next few years. I notice that many airlines are cancelling or deferring theirs.

While some very valid points are being made about BA there is a huge amount selective quoting going on.

Hmmm, selective quoting?

Yes, BA has funding for it's new Aircraft but as a proportion of the fleet, the investment is modest. If you make a comparison against many other airlines BA was not investing when they were and, whilst cancellations are understandable in these straightened times, it doesn't remove that fact that BA are operating an aged fleet whose care and maintenance needs are greater than those of their modern competitors.

When the premium market does return I belive that this lack of investment will impact on BA whose product will be seen as shabbly in comparison with those who have had the foresight to invest. Oh, and by 'investing' ( another word for losing money) in a swanky new terminal at Heathrow has actually yet to show any dividend whatsoever.

BA should break up its flight operations and franchise these to a series of national and international carriers. Use the brand presence and expertise to create a globally dominant marketing and ticketing structure to feed these franchisees.

[Final 3 Greens]

M.Mouse

FWIW, I don't see your colleagues and you as being the problem with BA, you have a collective track record of excellence and undoubtedly work hard.

I have some issues with the cabin crew and definitely with BASSA, which is a constraint on your business's ability to succeed.

More importantly, I believe that the 'business' side of the airline is weak, shows little real leadership and has killed product innovation in recent years.

I take no joy in saying this, as I was a happy BA customer for many years.

At the moment, I am really confused whether BA short haul is a premium or budget product and as I connect from abroad, it is only too easy to fly Star Alliance as an alternative.

At the risk of being boring, the ground handling at Heathrow is well below par and if BA cannot get BAA to provide a proper fast track service (like Zurich), then this is a major disscincentive to me, as time is literallymoney to me and half an hour lost standing in a queue has an opportunity cost of GBP100-150.

Regarding the perceived arrogance of BA pilots, in taking several hundred flights, I never noticed PAs that gave this impression and every BA pilot I met was polite and charming.

I do empathise with you, it must not be nice to tke this type of stick on a forum.

[Skipness One Echo]

There is a lot of hysteria on here at the minute. Even in short haul, the majority of the fleet, by a long way are 21st century built Airbuses. The B757s are being grounded, the B734s at LGW *may* not even be replaced, the B767s on short haul will soldier for some years more. However the bulk of the flying from LHR and a large proportion from LGW is on new-ish Airbuses.

BA had the biggest investment in long haul a few years back when they bought 57 B747-400s and 45 B777s to replace all the classic B747s / DC10s / TriStars. The oldest B744s are due for replacement soon and B77Ws have been ordered in the interim until the A380 arrives. I agree a WIP but the foundations are in and the work has begun.

To say that BA treats economy passengers like scum is rubbish. I have *never* flown up front in my life except when buying a late ticket on the Shuttle. I am generally amidhsips or down the back and the service I find to be pretty damn good.

Taking out the hysteria, once this mess is out of the way, and it *IS* survivable, BA will have new aircraft arriving, Terminal 5C up and running and even the possibility of Runway 3 underway at LHR. ( if you really believe the Tories policy let me remind you what the current definition of a politician reads like ).

There are two issues killing them slowly. T/ Cs of LHR cabin crew which are way beyond market rates, and the pension fund deficit. Just don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater !

At the moment, I am really confused whether BA short haul is a premium or budget product and as I connect from abroad, it is only too easy to fly Star Alliance as an alternative.

In the UK wouldn't that be BMI who are in a worse mess as to inconstent product? As for Swiss, the service up the back is worse than BA, perhaps on the other side of the curtain it excels but not in economy.

[Lord Bracken]

The oldest 747-400s in the fleet are approaching 20 years old (delivered in 1989 onwards). The youngest 777s are approaching 10 years old. Everything else on longhaul is somewhere in between. Now, unlike an accountant I don't have a problem with old aircraft per se as long as they are well looked after - historically this has always been a BA strong point however I think in recent years it appears that general smartening up of the cabin seems to have taken something of a back seat. And while New Club World is a very nicely designed product, it's pretty flimsy and I doubt will be able to last very long.

The biggest issue BA passengers have with BA is the continued erosion, small cut by small cut, of service standards and amenities on board the aircraft which all add up to a negative impression: not offering cheese and dessert on CW flights (either/or); removal of Port from shorthaul CE; no choice of hot dish on Band 3 CE flights in summer (one hot, one cold); no hot food at all outside breakfast on Band 1/2 CE flights; "Extended breakfast" and "Afternoon Tea" on CE flights which are the most mankiest, laughable excuses for airline catering I have ever seen; no sandwiches only birdseed on UK domestics at the weekend; no decent food available on Club World Sleeper Service flights (some of us don't have time to eat in the lounge); reductions in the Club Kitchen offering; shorthaul champagne is now Pommery when 5 years ago it was Piper Red; removal of converted seats in CE so they're now the same as Y...it just goes on and on.

Yes, BA are losing business passengers due to the downturn, but they're also losing them because it's getting harder and harder to justify the cost of J when you consider the benefits received (especially in Europe).

[Final 3 Greens]

In the UK wouldn't that be BMI who are in a worse mess as to inconstent product? As for Swiss, the service up the back is worse than BA, perhaps on the other side of the curtain it excels but not in economy.

1. I am internationally based and look at a bigger picture than the UK only and I don't fly bmi and couldn't care less whether the airline is worse than BA. Why would I connect via LON on *, when ZRH, is more efficient, provides less security hassle and fast track that actually is fast track?

2. Swiss premium is as good or better than BA on short haul (depending whether the BA plane is a bus or a thigh grabber), varies on long haul from equal to not as good on the 332s, due to the seats, not the crew service which is usually excellent, as is BAs crew on long haul.

But my point, which you don't seem to grasp, is that some parts of BA (e.g. the exec club, where I hold a premiuim card) regularly write to tell me how important I am, then they send a 737 with seats in CE that feel narrower than a Ryanair jet, can't even manage a Campari and soda (don't have either) and when wx disruption hits LHR, refuse to even try and help find me hotac, just throw me to the wolves on a CE ticket, event though their staff are perfectly aware I live in Malta.

You also demonstrate the typical short sightedness that afflicts the UK, when you talk about T5C and runway #3.

Heathrow is well past its sell by date, what is needed is a new airport. Paris bit the bullet in the 1970s and the UK should have done the same a long time ago.

I am well aware of the constraints at Heathrow, as I have worked as a consultant looking at some of these.

A serious effort at Stansted in the 80s could have seen London's premier airport located there, with proper high speed rail links.

Edited to say that Lord Bracken makes some very good points about reduced service levels.

[Skipness One Echo]

I am internationally based

Aren't we all?

I get the fact that you feel as a Premium customer you are undervalued however I would remind you that this is the British Airways forum, hence I make no apologies for a UK bias and mentioning LHR as the home of....er British Airways.
The reason ZRH is more efficient is partly becasue of the Swiss nation themselves and partly because it handles a mere fraction of the traffic and can afford to be. Swiss premium may be much better but Swissair ( for it is they that they were born from ) was legendary for service and look at 1) Only the extremely well off could afford to fly frequently and 2) They went bust.

Being based in Malta, you must know that all you are going to get is an old B737-400 from LGW. Before that it wasn't even a BA service, it was a GB franchise route in recent years.

Heathrow is well past its sell by date, what is needed is a new airport. Paris bit the bullet in the 1970s and the UK should have done the same a long time ago.

I can only assume you don't use CDG much as it is as much a dysfunctional nightmare as LHR, except that with LHR's T5 and East development, LHR is improving!! CDG is a joke in transit.

I am well aware of the constraints at Heathrow, as I have worked as a consultant looking at some of these.
A serious effort at Stansted in the 80s could have seen London's premier airport located there, with proper high speed rail links.

If you were indeed a consultant on UK transport then you'll be aware as to why moving to a farm in Essex was never really an option for anyone working where the market was.....which was the M4 corridor, the Thames Valley and WEST London.

[Lord Bracken]

Being based in Malta, you must know that all you are going to get is an old B737-400 from LGW. Before that it wasn't even a BA service, it was a GB franchise route in recent years.

Do I detect a bit of snobbery? For the record, I flew GB Airways for years between LGW and Faro in Club and they offered

- brand new A320s/A321s
- excellent, BA branded service from a small group of delightful cabin crew
- four flights a day in Summer, two in winter IIRC

which has now been replaced with

- clapped out mainline 737s...the state of the toilets on some of them is disgusting
- food cuts as mentioned above (band 3)
- two flights a day in summer, one in winter right in the middle of the day, useless if you want to get away for a long weekend - I fly EZY instead.

However, at least it's a "BA service." God knows what Broughton thinks of it, as I gather he has a house in the Algarve...

[sak123]

You obviously have no idea what the crew think of passengers down the back. Cattle class to precise. As a male member of cabin crew for BA I find that I get away with throwing passengers dinner at them. Chicken or beef love. Only joking! But on a serious note crew for BA have no respect I have been told by a Purser to scrape food off the galley floor as we were short on meals and I dropped one by accident. I was told to give it to a snooty woman. Thats another reminder. Dont upset the crew. It may appear proffessional but believe me crew couldnt give a ****.

[sak123]

Are you mad. cabin crew cannot stand passengers. i should know, i an ba cabin crew. its just a front because they get payed well. if they had a choice they would sit there without doing any service whatsoever. The union will probably back them up aswell. as they say in the briefing , you may not like serving the stuck up bastards but they they think they pay youre wages. so let them think it. and that came from a csd.

[beauport potato man]

I agree with other poster that the two biggest achilles heals at BA are the pension deficit and the crew contracts..... and on the latter I am stunned that there still exists things like layover days.... 2 & 3 day trips to short haul destinations with accompanying allowances & expenses.

This is outdated and unnecessary. Friends I have who have moved to BA short haul from other s/h airlines think its a holiday camp. They seem to spend half their life nightstopping and laying over!

[M.Mouse]

Oh, and by 'investing' ( another word for losing money) in a swanky new terminal at Heathrow has actually yet to show any dividend whatsoever.

That statement is actually patently untrue and T5 has and is continuing to provide a significant improvement over BA's previous ground based costs. I have seen figures but do not have them on record.

Final 3 Greens, you are quite correct when you say that it must be unpleasant to read threads such as this. Interestingly your calm and factual observations from your experience are at once easier to read and also a cause for great despair. Pilots, probably more than any other group, are tied via seniority into BA's future.

We are aware of and observe the facts which you state. I can assure you that many of us personally and via our representatives have forcefully told our managers and even the CEO what we observe and hear. It is indicative of the bovine leadership we endure that nothing ever seems to change and despite the importance of retaining customers, let alone trying to attract new ones, we, as a company, sail on regardless with an imperious arrogance of truly mind blowing proportions.

If I am totally honest for the first time in over twenty years I fear for the survival of BA and am carefully calculating whether I can afford to take early retirement and salvage what I can while there is something still available to salvage.

[M.Mouse]

sak123, if you are really BA crew, which I doubt, then you are a disgrace and serve nobody by making your two, and I note only, semi-literate posts.

[Hounddog1]

I agree, Sak123 is a disgrace to BA, perhaps he would rather fly on empty planes, no pax = no moaners or whingers. Sak123 you are obviously in the wrong job.

I have flown with some excellent BA cabin crew on long and short haul flight, ofcourse all barrels have bad apples in them

[Off Stand]

Sak123, I hope to God that I never fly with you. I am shocked and disgusted with what you have written. If indeed you are BA, then you are the type of person that gives us a bad name. If you hate passengers that much, just leave and do something where you won't be imposed upon the general public!

[Serenity]

Last time i travelled B.A. from Italy, as the roll was thrown out, the one crew member pushing the cart said to the other,
" i hate this flight, can`t wait to get off"".
All surounding pax heard!!
Are they really worked that hard on a 2 hour flight, i don`t think!!
Maybe they should try wroking for a charter outfit for a reality check instead!!!

[Redcap49]

Sak123,your rants regarding passengers are a disgrace.I can't believe that you have been employed by BA with that attitude.If you have then God help BA in the future if you are an example of what they are now employing.

[Final 3 Greens]

Skipness

Being based in Malta, you must know that all you are going to get is an old B737-400 from LGW.

An interesting point of view, however one that apparently misses the 3-5 rotations between Malta and LHR/LGW, flown by Air Malta with a very new Airbus fleet (with in flight feature films), good service and keen pricing in the premium cabin or the loco offerings from easy and the Ryans on new Airbus or 738s.

Or for connections, Air Malta and Lufthansa/Swiss/Austrian in cooperation going north or Emirates to the east. And that is not even considering Alitalia and Egyptair, who are not my first choices.

BA could withdraw from Malta and the world would hardly end. Lord Bracken is right, the GB franchise was an excellent experience.

The reason ZRH is more efficient is partly becasue of the Swiss nation themselves and partly because it handles a mere fraction of the traffic and can afford to be. Swiss premium may be much better but Swissair ( for it is they that they were born from ) was legendary for service and look at 1) Only the extremely well off could afford to fly frequently and 2) They went bust.

Frankly, that is a load of cobblers. Zurich airport works efficiently because it is well managed and Swissair went bust because they got things badly wrong with their business model - remember Sabena? Swiss International (who, IMHO, are not as classy as Swissair were), arose from Crossair, who in effect reversed into the rump of what was left.

If you were indeed a consultant on UK transport then you'll be aware as to why moving to a farm in Essex was never really an option for anyone working where the market was.....which was the M4 corridor, the Thames Valley and WEST London.

I was a consultant working for a certain big airline at LHR.

By the way, which part of 'fast rail links' did you have trouble understanding? With the right train service, the M4 corridor would be about 45 minutes from Stansted. And considerably quicker for the City of London, which was a major player for the last 20 years, or so. BA used to lfy a lot of merchant bankers in premium class and very few worked wets of London.

I can only assume you don't use CDG much as it is as much a dysfunctional nightmare as LHR, except that with LHR's T5 and East development, LHR is improving!! CDG is a joke in transit.

I have used it a lot. Note that I did not present it as a model of excellence, merely commented that the French took a strategic view and made a big decision, whereas the Brits have tinkered around and compromised.

[Skipness One Echo]

Final 3 Greens you make some really good points. The only thing I would come back on is that people say "well all you need is a fast rail link" and that's true. I live here, I know that. The truth is that the sheer over population in this part of the world prevents strategic transport objectives like that. In the real world it is a nightmare, however much we cannot lose sight of the ideal.

I disagree with some of what you say but you make your points well sir. I am not holding my breath for a fast rail link as they have just begin work on Crossrail, some 18 years late.....

[cornishsimon]

The youngest 777s are approaching 10 years old

or how about 10 days old ?

[rmac]

And horror of horrors, the Aeroflot service in C class from Moscow to London is now far superior to BA's tired "Club Europe" service. Proper wide seats and personal video players with selections in English and Russia and the cabin crew even smile these days