British Airways - 2
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The only glimmer of light in this is that the figures encompass the sky high fuel figures from last year!
All airlines have been bleeding cash so it comes as no surprise.
Perhaps now those with their heads in the sand can see that the company is not telling them a pack of lies and the negotiations on outdated working practices can finally yield something positive.
All airlines have been bleeding cash so it comes as no surprise.
Perhaps now those with their heads in the sand can see that the company is not telling them a pack of lies and the negotiations on outdated working practices can finally yield something positive.
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BA needs to understand that it cannot reduce service levels in the premium classes and then expect customer loyalty in hard times.
I could give the company 20-30 return trips, every year, between Malta and London in Club Europe, but why should I when they send tired 737's (tired as cabin fittings, e.g. seat headrest fell off recently) and change the seating so that it feels tighter than Ryanair? If one buys 2 seats on Ryanair and priority boarding, then the space is similar to CE and several times less expensive, Priority Pass gives lounge access at both ends. A meal at the airport replaces the in flight offering and the savings more than pay for a bottle of wine or two enroute.
On short haul these days, I actively use easyJet before BA, their wx canx policy is miles better and the service is usually excellent. I had a weather related problem with BA this year (as a Club pax) and it was only resolved when a kind member of BA staff PM'd me with an email address in response to a thread on the SLF forum. Otherwise I would have had to pay GBP350 for hotac. When I experienced an airborne return with U2, due to intense TS activity over France, they provided hotac, meals and a replacement flight (i.e. added an extra, ad hoc, flight to their schedule.)
When I took the time to give feedback about the new Club Europe seating, I got this reply
"Dear Mr F3G
It’s important to us that you have an opportunity to let us know what you like or think needs to be improved and we have opened this feedback channel so that you can do just that.
Unfortunately we cannot respond personally to every piece of feedback we receive but we will collect this information with a view to making improvements that are important to you.
Thank you for sending us your feedback.
Regards
XXXXXXXXX
British Airways Executive Club
That simply is not a good enough reply, maybe losing 900 million might focus their thinking a little.
And then I fly regularly to the middle east, but the 'service' at T5 is sometimes horrible (in particular fast track security, pretty important to the FQTV, is a total joke), so I tend to use * Alliance instead. If BA cannot sort out service levels with BAA, then they don't deserve my business.
BA took cost out of the business last year, at the customer service end and are now paying the price for that decision.
I could give the company 20-30 return trips, every year, between Malta and London in Club Europe, but why should I when they send tired 737's (tired as cabin fittings, e.g. seat headrest fell off recently) and change the seating so that it feels tighter than Ryanair? If one buys 2 seats on Ryanair and priority boarding, then the space is similar to CE and several times less expensive, Priority Pass gives lounge access at both ends. A meal at the airport replaces the in flight offering and the savings more than pay for a bottle of wine or two enroute.
On short haul these days, I actively use easyJet before BA, their wx canx policy is miles better and the service is usually excellent. I had a weather related problem with BA this year (as a Club pax) and it was only resolved when a kind member of BA staff PM'd me with an email address in response to a thread on the SLF forum. Otherwise I would have had to pay GBP350 for hotac. When I experienced an airborne return with U2, due to intense TS activity over France, they provided hotac, meals and a replacement flight (i.e. added an extra, ad hoc, flight to their schedule.)
When I took the time to give feedback about the new Club Europe seating, I got this reply
"Dear Mr F3G
It’s important to us that you have an opportunity to let us know what you like or think needs to be improved and we have opened this feedback channel so that you can do just that.
Unfortunately we cannot respond personally to every piece of feedback we receive but we will collect this information with a view to making improvements that are important to you.
Thank you for sending us your feedback.
Regards
XXXXXXXXX
British Airways Executive Club
That simply is not a good enough reply, maybe losing 900 million might focus their thinking a little.
And then I fly regularly to the middle east, but the 'service' at T5 is sometimes horrible (in particular fast track security, pretty important to the FQTV, is a total joke), so I tend to use * Alliance instead. If BA cannot sort out service levels with BAA, then they don't deserve my business.
BA took cost out of the business last year, at the customer service end and are now paying the price for that decision.
Living in the "regions", BA is generally no longer a realistic option to use. However, I have just completed a short haul BA 4 leg trip, using A320. B752 & 2 x B734s. The youngest aircraft provided was circa 19 years old. The interiors were very tatty & in worse condition than BMI baby / Jet2 aircraft.
The inflight magazines look like they had been in use for years & one seat did not sit upright properly & another seat had no safety card.
It was confirmation for me, that from the regions I should stick to AF / LH & KL & skip the LHR/LGW experience. Thanks BA, but no thanks.
The inflight magazines look like they had been in use for years & one seat did not sit upright properly & another seat had no safety card.
It was confirmation for me, that from the regions I should stick to AF / LH & KL & skip the LHR/LGW experience. Thanks BA, but no thanks.
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Sadly symptomatic of the current yield levels in short haul.
BA is trying to bolster its long haul operation at the cost of its short haul 'feeder' routes. The problem is that BA will not address these issues unles the profitability of LH goes up. Until then it will continue to try to entice premium onto its LH aircraft.
Whilst those of us who use SH extensively can see the detrimental effect, the company views SH as a route to get its customers onto its shiny new refitted 777/744 aircraft and all will be forgiven. This is at cost to the SH route structure as any connecting pax for LH shows only on the LH budget.
As I said, sad but true.
Ironically the company have, this year, taken delivery of about 16 new Airbus aircraft but seem to have an odd way of allocating them to specific, high value routes. As in they don't!
(Edited due to Freudian slip of 748!)
BA is trying to bolster its long haul operation at the cost of its short haul 'feeder' routes. The problem is that BA will not address these issues unles the profitability of LH goes up. Until then it will continue to try to entice premium onto its LH aircraft.
Whilst those of us who use SH extensively can see the detrimental effect, the company views SH as a route to get its customers onto its shiny new refitted 777/744 aircraft and all will be forgiven. This is at cost to the SH route structure as any connecting pax for LH shows only on the LH budget.
As I said, sad but true.
Ironically the company have, this year, taken delivery of about 16 new Airbus aircraft but seem to have an odd way of allocating them to specific, high value routes. As in they don't!
(Edited due to Freudian slip of 748!)
Last edited by wobble2plank; 22nd May 2009 at 09:14.
The big difference between BA and the other majors in Europe is that BA has the pension fund on it's books and the others haven't. This significantly weakens their financial strength, they simply can't afford to pay the likes of 500 million quid into the pension pot...
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The APD will indeed be another nail in the whole uk aviation industry.
Why, to pay for outfits like OFCOM (who do what?) They employ 800 staff (WTF do they all do ?),all I presume on fully (publicly paid) indexed linked pensions.
And and as from yesterday another 15,000 + families being allowed in to be provided with free housing.hospitals and benefits paid for by us the taxpayer.
Not to worry, the country is being run by ministers who it now appears have memories like sieves when it comes to anything to do with money.
Why, to pay for outfits like OFCOM (who do what?) They employ 800 staff (WTF do they all do ?),all I presume on fully (publicly paid) indexed linked pensions.
And and as from yesterday another 15,000 + families being allowed in to be provided with free housing.hospitals and benefits paid for by us the taxpayer.
Not to worry, the country is being run by ministers who it now appears have memories like sieves when it comes to anything to do with money.
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BA Record Losses
It would be interesting to know how much of the BA losses were incurred due to incorrect fuel hedging. A number of asian airlines (CP and China Eastern to name two) got the oil market ar*e about face last year (on the way up and even worse on the way down) resulting in 100's of millions of dollar losses reported recently....anyone have any specific info on the BA fuel numbers?
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BA to Vegas
So BA announce their worst ever set of financial results at the same time as they announce their latest new route to ..... Las Vegas (from LHR) ... a city which is suffering from a massive down-turn in visitors.
Somehow just doesn't add up. Hardly the type of new route which is going to improve BA's financial health!
Somehow just doesn't add up. Hardly the type of new route which is going to improve BA's financial health!
Robert Peston (BBC Economics Editor) suggests that BA's fuel costs increased by £ 900 million last year, and that if it weren't for this they would have made a profit.
BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: Loaded down
BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: Loaded down
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APD will affect all UK Airlines
170 GBP in APD Tax for a LHR-TYO Business Class passenger!!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but TRANSIT pax are exempt from APD.
BA's trapped with those Pension problems and stuck Operationally in Catch 22 - needs to cut costs, but cuts service, so drives away business people, so needs to cut costs...repeat etc...
BA in 2012 will look a lot different to now I am sure.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but TRANSIT pax are exempt from APD.
BA's trapped with those Pension problems and stuck Operationally in Catch 22 - needs to cut costs, but cuts service, so drives away business people, so needs to cut costs...repeat etc...
BA in 2012 will look a lot different to now I am sure.
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Longhitter. BA is the only major carrier in Europe with a pension fund on it’s books??? Can you expand on your view of this, because my airline (bigger than BA), and very much in Europe, certainly has one, properly funded (read no deficit). And I know of four other major European carriers that have one. I realize that pprune is very much orientated towards the UK side of the business. Maybe you meant no other major UK carrier?
BA management played a very smart game by allowing this deficit, and to let it grow, even in years where enough money was coming in to make good on its contracts. This has already resulted in a major reduction in the whole pension scheme at BA. I am sure this crisis will be used to put the nail in the coffin of what is left. It is the Anglo-saxon way of doing business. Let the bonuses roll!
As example of the UK centrism on pprune:
A thread on Ryanair maybe charging for toilet service can rant on for weeks and count hundreds of post. But; two days ago a joint venture was signed between Delta Airlines (which has integrated with NWA) and Air France/KLM. Which will control 25% of the transatlantic market, represents around 12 Billion Euros in revenue per year. Each day 50,000 seats across the Atlantic are offered. And not a peep on pprune.
BA management played a very smart game by allowing this deficit, and to let it grow, even in years where enough money was coming in to make good on its contracts. This has already resulted in a major reduction in the whole pension scheme at BA. I am sure this crisis will be used to put the nail in the coffin of what is left. It is the Anglo-saxon way of doing business. Let the bonuses roll!
As example of the UK centrism on pprune:
A thread on Ryanair maybe charging for toilet service can rant on for weeks and count hundreds of post. But; two days ago a joint venture was signed between Delta Airlines (which has integrated with NWA) and Air France/KLM. Which will control 25% of the transatlantic market, represents around 12 Billion Euros in revenue per year. Each day 50,000 seats across the Atlantic are offered. And not a peep on pprune.
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I still personally think BA crew are as good if not better than any but its the product they were dumped with for so long.
Premium frequent fliers shafted year after year by changes to the exec club, bonus upgrades you couldnt use, airmiles you couldnt use, expensive short haul club flights leaving Pax to fight over the armrests on the RHS of the aisle looking on in envy at those on the LHS with that nice mid seat empty - all paying the same price. (Might be different now with the 2+2 layout but you just know what will happen when the upturn comes)
Looking at current long-haul prices they must be half what I was paying 10 or more years ago. And loads down by 17% up front?, no wonder they are up the proverbial creek without the paddle. Well over a million a day in losses and caught in a perfect storm of trouble from every angle.
The name BA may exist in a few years but the existing company wont.
Premium frequent fliers shafted year after year by changes to the exec club, bonus upgrades you couldnt use, airmiles you couldnt use, expensive short haul club flights leaving Pax to fight over the armrests on the RHS of the aisle looking on in envy at those on the LHS with that nice mid seat empty - all paying the same price. (Might be different now with the 2+2 layout but you just know what will happen when the upturn comes)
Looking at current long-haul prices they must be half what I was paying 10 or more years ago. And loads down by 17% up front?, no wonder they are up the proverbial creek without the paddle. Well over a million a day in losses and caught in a perfect storm of trouble from every angle.
The name BA may exist in a few years but the existing company wont.
Otterman,
The BA pension fund's value is on the books with BA. Fluctuations in it's value and coverage factor directly affect the financial position of the airline. I have seen the Financial Times referring to BA jokingly as 'that pension fund with an airline attached to it'.
For AF & KLM this does not apply, since the pension fund for pilots, cc and other staff are independent of the airline. AF and employees pay premiums into it, but the actual value of the fund and fluctuations thereof do not appear on the companies' books. Worst thing that can happen is that premiums go up a couple of percent to make up for lost coverage factor due to stock portfolio decreasing in value / lower interest rates. No expert, but I think it's the same for Lufty.
Sorry for the confusion, it's probably a UK thing to have the pensions on the books...
LH
The BA pension fund's value is on the books with BA. Fluctuations in it's value and coverage factor directly affect the financial position of the airline. I have seen the Financial Times referring to BA jokingly as 'that pension fund with an airline attached to it'.
For AF & KLM this does not apply, since the pension fund for pilots, cc and other staff are independent of the airline. AF and employees pay premiums into it, but the actual value of the fund and fluctuations thereof do not appear on the companies' books. Worst thing that can happen is that premiums go up a couple of percent to make up for lost coverage factor due to stock portfolio decreasing in value / lower interest rates. No expert, but I think it's the same for Lufty.
Sorry for the confusion, it's probably a UK thing to have the pensions on the books...
LH
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'British' Airways is probably an operative word
When I lived in the UK, in the NE, the airline was as relevant and accessible to me as KLM or Air France.
I doubt any of the regions will have much sympathy for them
When I lived in the UK, in the NE, the airline was as relevant and accessible to me as KLM or Air France.
I doubt any of the regions will have much sympathy for them
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F3G,
If you respond to the link that you would have been given with the standard response you will be able to frustrate yourself even further by entering into increasingly pompous and illogical discussion with customer services representative of ever higher status. BA don't care a jot. The economic downturn is a saviour to their management who lost the plot 12 months ago, or more. Fuel costs were high last summer and into the winter but where are they now?
The results are, in my humble opinion, a lot better than expected and, unlike the banking sector, who have been at pains to cover the worst eventuality in the final year accounts, I think BA are still trying to paint a rosy picture of a company with a huge pension problem, a failing business model and no real idea how to sort it out. There are still too many staff and far too many managers.
BA still has global brand potential but it needs a radical re-think to turn it around. There are few global brands that continue to operate in the same way as BA and, whilst credit is due for limiting their stated losses to £400m, the management need to wake up and realise that the world is changing far quicker that BA ever can.
Despite the persistent thrumming of WW stating that BA is a premium airline with premium values the fact is that BA no longer undertsnd the meaning of the word 'Premium' and don't actually understand that many of their customers do. This is why you get patronising guff from Customer relations whose mailbox is probably permanantly fixed to a shredder.
And Before anyone says that I simply have a thing about BA I will remind them that I was a loayal customer for over 10 years and have accummulated and used many hundreds of thousand BA miles over that period. The decline is terminal ( excuse the pun) and someone has to say it.
If I belived that BA had a future and could be a premium ailrine again - I would be delighted. I don't and I'm prepared to say it.
If you respond to the link that you would have been given with the standard response you will be able to frustrate yourself even further by entering into increasingly pompous and illogical discussion with customer services representative of ever higher status. BA don't care a jot. The economic downturn is a saviour to their management who lost the plot 12 months ago, or more. Fuel costs were high last summer and into the winter but where are they now?
The results are, in my humble opinion, a lot better than expected and, unlike the banking sector, who have been at pains to cover the worst eventuality in the final year accounts, I think BA are still trying to paint a rosy picture of a company with a huge pension problem, a failing business model and no real idea how to sort it out. There are still too many staff and far too many managers.
BA still has global brand potential but it needs a radical re-think to turn it around. There are few global brands that continue to operate in the same way as BA and, whilst credit is due for limiting their stated losses to £400m, the management need to wake up and realise that the world is changing far quicker that BA ever can.
Despite the persistent thrumming of WW stating that BA is a premium airline with premium values the fact is that BA no longer undertsnd the meaning of the word 'Premium' and don't actually understand that many of their customers do. This is why you get patronising guff from Customer relations whose mailbox is probably permanantly fixed to a shredder.
And Before anyone says that I simply have a thing about BA I will remind them that I was a loayal customer for over 10 years and have accummulated and used many hundreds of thousand BA miles over that period. The decline is terminal ( excuse the pun) and someone has to say it.
If I belived that BA had a future and could be a premium ailrine again - I would be delighted. I don't and I'm prepared to say it.