British Airways - 2

[Final 3 Greens]

Munnyspinner

I won't use the link, why should I? I have a choice of three other airlines on the route.

Out of interest, the communication was in response to a press report (right or wrong, I don't know) that WW had only received 2 letters of complaint about the new CE seating, so I asked if they would kindly forward my comments to him; your analogy of a shredder sounds plausible.

You may be on to something with your view on 'terminal decline', IMHO. The average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company varies from time to time, but is usually just over 40 years and BA has existed for ........ 36 years.

I passed through the UK last week and found the 'upgrade to BA' adverts at LGW to be risible, the easyJet flights I took had a perfectly acceptable product, with very good service and punctuality. The seats were more comfortable than the BA 737 CE aisle product!

[Brian Fantana]

BA have not made a profit - boo bloody hoo.
I flew with BA LHR-YYC a while ago and was amazed to see a cruise relief pilot. This is a single sector duty, ( cannot remember flight time) What is the extra cost for sector pay, flight pay, hotel accommodation and away from base allowance just to have a relief pilot kipping in the bunk!!
I have operated UK-YYC lots of times and only two crew, there is no need for a relief pilot! How many BA flights are operated in this throw money down the drain manner?
Whilst on a BA flight Singapore-LHR I was chatting to the crew they had been staying at the expensive Raffles hotel.
BA get off and night stop in Cyprus when all the charter boys are operating straight back to the UK.
It’s about time they got in the real world, they only have themselves to blame and there is plenty of cost cutting to have.

[aar4n5]

If BA had not paid out £350 million in fines and £80 million the give managers a huge pay off to leave the company would it have resulted in a profit ???

[Stall Pusher]

Is BA still pumping millions into Willie's OpenSkies airline, whilst ditching staff and aircraft from its Mainline operation?

[Carnage Matey!]

What a lot of boll**** people write on this thread!

Originally Posted by Brian Fantana

BA have not made a profit - boo bloody hoo.
I flew with BA LHR-YYC a while ago and was amazed to see a cruise relief pilot. This is a single sector duty, ( cannot remember flight time)

I'll save you the trouble, it's 9:25.

I have operated UK-YYC lots of times and only two crew, there is no need for a relief pilot!

Go and pick up your copy of CAP 371, a BA schedule, and then come back and tell us why BA think they need a third pilot. Don't forget the return leg.

How many BA flights are operated in this throw money down the drain manner?

I guess its all the ones that BA can't legally operate with two crew.

Whilst on a BA flight Singapore-LHR I was chatting to the crew they had been staying at the expensive Raffles hotel.

That must have been nice for them, perhaps they had treated themselves out of their own pockets? BA pilots do not, and have never, stayed at the expensive Raffles hotel on company money.

BA get off and night stop in Cyprus when all the charter boys are operating straight back to the UK.

What do you think drives that nightstop? The desire to give the boys a night off in the Med, or the commercial departments decision about what time they want a LCA service to operate to best match customer demand and aircraft availability?

It’s about time they got in the real world

I think you could do with taking your own advice there!

Originally Posted by JKKne

British' Airways is probably an operative word

When I lived in the UK, in the NE, the airline was as relevant and accessible to me as KLM or Air France.

I doubt any of the regions will have much sympathy for them

Change the record, it's getting boring. The North East doesn't generate sufficient revenue to support a base for any significant network carrier. Air France and KLM don't do anything different from BA, except operate a less frequent service to NCL.

Originally Posted by aar4n5

If BA had not paid out £350 million in fines and £80 million the give managers a huge pay off to leave the company would it have resulted in a profit ???

No it wouldn't. The £350M fine was on the 08/09 accounts. The £80M isn't to give the manages a huge pay off, its the voluntary redundancy bill for the whole company.

[aar4n5]

maybe not the best time to start veagas but its moving on on one of Virgin's most profitable routes. Just a look at the Gatwick winter caribbean schedule big increase in flights to bgi, uvf and anu with new routes to montego bay and punta carna again moving in on virgin.
Alhough ba's traditional business market is down longhaul lesiure travel is on the up so incresesing flights to these destinations makes more sense.

[doubledolphins]

Can't comment about the other stuff but I last summer I often took a 767 into LCA arriving at the same time as the BA one and left about the same time as it did, to come home. It had a fresh crew, we did both sectors. But then I get to sit on a beach in other parts of the world that they don't go to. And my boss is not giving up a month's salary.

[747-436]

I am sure things like certain European nightstop patterns are being investigated in the drive to remove cost out of the business, the ones that work operationally and commercially will no doubt be changed.

Thw whole business is being looked at in a bid to reduce costs. Interesting times ahead!

[M.Mouse]

BA management played a very smart game by allowing this deficit, and to let it grow, even in years where enough money was coming in to make good on its contracts. This has already resulted in a major reduction in the whole pension scheme at BA. I am sure this crisis will be used to put the nail in the coffin of what is left. It is the Anglo-saxon way of doing business. Let the bonuses roll!

BA did no such thing. In fact in the late 90s the pension funds was doing so well that BA was compelled under government rules to take a payment holiday from APS and in NAPS our benefits were improved. The government has brought about the demise of most final salary schemes (except their own of course) and the cost of winding up the scheme is actually so prohibitive that BA is stuck between a rock and a hard place - they cannot afford to wind it up and, by all accounts, the deficit is getting larger.

Regarding flight times and crew numbers. Calgary is 9+ hours and I find it extraordinary that people think it is acceptable to have two individuals effectively sat at the controls without any meaningful break for longer than they themselves might even sit at a desk.

Larnaca flights which are operated by some airlines there and back by the crew entail a very long duty and often overnight. Some people wonder why fatigue amongst flight crew is a problem!

Just because the cut throat world of the low cost airlines has led to crews flying to absolute legal limits and driven the cost of a seat down to unsustainable levels which, combined with the current world economic situation, will result in the collapse of an airline or two does not benefit anybody in the long run. Once capacity has been slashed by the demise of said airlines just watch the seat prices rocket.

BA has many problems not least of which is the legacy of having been a nationalised industry but like any other company with that background changing years of overmanning and extravagant or restrictive practises takes years of difficult negotiation with stubborn and obstructive unions 'protecting' their members. This is crunch time and either BA responds rapidly and effectively or sinks.

Ignoring the usual anti-BA rants here I think very few people will see the demise of BA as something to be welcomed.

[wiggy]

Brian F

"Whilst on a BA flight Singapore-LHR I was chatting to the crew they had been staying at the expensive Raffles hotel."

In what decade did you have this chat? BA crew certainly have not stayed at the Raffles in 20 plus years, if ever.

[M.Mouse]

The confusion is that we used to stay at The Raffles Plaza hotel, nothing like THE Raffles hotel.

The rates BA negotiate at most hotels are very competitive purely through volume of guaranteed business. Where should we stay the YMCA?

[Tercarley]

Crew used to stay at the Shangri La and the Hyatt and the hotel up at Tanglin Circus in bygone years. I stayed at the Raffles in BOAC yonks ago and it was the crew hotel then but it must be lets see at least 1965-70 .

The Raffles then was not like it is today - mores the pity. Perhaps this post should be in the nostagia section. !!!!!!!!!

[topjetgeezer]

What's Willie to do with BA?

Willie Walsh claimed his position at BA was rock solid today on the news despite the airline losing 1.5 million pounds a day. But what suggestions does he have in order to protect the crew at BA and make their position rock solid? It's always the front liners that do the work that get the chop and the management that decide the fate that end up with rather nice pensions and expense allowances. Maybe he can team up with the speaker and get a place in the house of lords

[Brian Fantana]

CAP 371 states an acclimatised crew of 2 or more operating 1 sector can operate an FDP of 13 hours if checking in between 1300-1759
BA103 schedule gives 9.25. a dept time of 1725L. With the hour pre flight and half hour post flight it could operate 2 crew on one sector.
Return BA102 schedule gives 8.50. a dept time 2135L. If crew not acclimatised the most limiting FDP on an 18 to 30 rest period is 11.30, acclimatised FDP is 12 hours. Flight can still operated 2 crew.
The LCA flight dept 0850 has 1.20 on the ground in LCA arrives UK at 1940 that would be an FDP of 11.50. CAP371 allows an FDP 12.15 there is no reason this cannot be operated there and back by one crew on the day just like the numerous UK charter operators.
I concede that the Raffles hotel may have been a one off for that crew or maybe it was a windup, the chat I was having was in Feb 2009.
I am in the real world and have been for a long time through the good and bad times within this ever changing industry, I’m just thinking of things that IMHO would save some cash.
Well done to Willie for leading the way.

[Miles Magister]

A bit like the restaurant not doing so well so they cut down the number of waitresses and then goes to the wall because service is bad, but should have employed more waitresses to improve the service.

Cut the layers of admin staff and build the front of house service.

[Dan Air 87]

Okay. I am SLF and a frequent flyer to where the oil industry is based so I am working into places such as ABZ, LOS, PHC, LAD and IAH to name a few. I prefer to fly out of LHR where possible. Despite the cost pressures of my firm (they want me to fly to LOS via Tripoli) I still believe in the BA long haul product. The crews do a damned good job and T5 is simply brilliant compared to T3 which to my eyes has simply papered over the cracks.

Short haul is always a problem but the phasing out of the B734's can't come quickly enough. Ok the interiors a bit naff but if you have a/c which are due to go off lease soon why waste more money doing a refurb? I'd much rather BA save this money and freshen up the interiors of the Airbus fleet.

BA's biggest problem is the decrease in J and W traffic where they make their money and the price of fuel. Its a common problem and in the climate was bound to happen. Other airlines are posting large losses so BA is not alone.

I for one will be keeping faith with BA. Those of you out there who want to fly with LCC's are more than welcome but you are missing great service from a great airline. BA will bounce back and in a year we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about. It needs managers and customers to hold their nerve too and realise what great value you get for your money.

[Dan Air 87]

Yes but flying to LAS in smart B777's (rather than the worn out B744's of the other acrrier) should do wonders for the loads. Plus of course it will fit in nicely with the interlining and one world alliance traffic. Bring it on.

[topjetgeezer]

Exactly right Miles, they're looking at redundancies now simply because people are turning right instead of left when they get on the aircraft. I know it's a bit drastic but if people now want burgers instead of a gourmet meal then give them a burger. Put more economy seats on the aircraft is the answer. Hey maybe we should now get a job in management. We should charge for this bit of advice.

[Final 3 Greens]

realise what great value you get for your money.

With all due respect, you don't and that is the problem.

BA is no longer a product worth paying a premium for, the competitive advantage that the innovation typified by flat beds (remember BA was the world leader in introducing these) no longer seems to be there and the company appears to be a follower, these days.

I fly Star Alliance, Emirate and other airlines in business quite regularly. For example, I did some flights to South America with Iberia last year, frankly with very low expectations and found the product and service to be very good (flat bed, good food/wine.) When I price the flights, BA is not often competitive and I don't see the extra value to pay more.

Its a shame, but there you are.

I have no doubt that the pilots are selected and trained to be the equal or better of their peers, but the cabin crew are not as good (consistently) as they used to be, for example I took 2 flights on the 'thigh grabber' in May.

One had an excellent purser (or whatever they are called) who monitored our needs in an unobtrusive way all the flight and the other crew did the very minimum, bfore retreating to read the Mail. To be fair, it was not their fault they had no Campari on board (outbound from LGW), but to be without soda water as well was pretty poor for an alleged 'full service' airline.

I do not understand what BA's strategy is and I get mixed messages from the airline - what I do know is that other airline's have better value propositions at the moment.

This is not BA bashing, as it would suit me to have another viable and vfm choice, I would come back in an instant, but the company has to start providing better value for money.

[raffele]

I heard on the radio earlier that he's refusing his wages for either June or July. (June I think it was). Interesting tactic there - big gesture from the big man, makes joe public impressed at his efforts, but really it won't make much of a difference! And of course, few will realise this.

Yes indeed - cut the bureaucratic layers, not the essential FOH support. Now is not the time for the airline to lose it's footing against it's rivals through worsening quality of service