BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: Button Moon
Bumped into a BALPA rep today. I hope I wasn’t being fobbed off but KG’s shopping list is being viewed as utter tosh apparently.
Lets see. KG is picking a very big fight with a huge portion of the workforce and with lots of very senior people all at the same time.
Frankly I’m not sure I can carry on with this lot if this gets through. As I’ve already said, I didn’t sign up for this s***.
Time will tell.
Lets see. KG is picking a very big fight with a huge portion of the workforce and with lots of very senior people all at the same time.
Frankly I’m not sure I can carry on with this lot if this gets through. As I’ve already said, I didn’t sign up for this s***.
Time will tell.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
From: UK
Happened at my previous too. Layovers reduced. I’ve always said JSS is only the first step of the grand plan [camera draws away to show white cat being stroked on a leather armchair] . JSS well placed to exploit holes in bidline rules which were specifically written with a sister system in mind. That system gone, tweaks to BLR already been happening for ages.
Limit the line hoarding of the newly created high credit 3 day LAXs etc with limits (sold to the workers as being of benefit to juniors). Then they’re sprinkled about the demographic forcing most rosters to contain more plentiful low credit items. Any day at home benefits nicely put up in smoke, Man hours utilisation achieved. Just one way [camera shows white cat now purring and weird kinky gloved hand reaches for the brandy glass]
BA. Can be a fantastic place to work. Don’t forget that those looking in. It’s not entire gloom. No one saying that. But the blacks are swamping the whites now. So the positives are holding less and less currency with each change. Especially if you’re junior trash like a lot of us. Such a shame. It’s increasingly draining. Often intimidating, not unfair to say almost Stasi-esque through its own actions sometimes (surveil your workers travel on personal time anyone?) and sometimes the comms read a little like a mafioso internal newsletter from the capos.
They now want champagne workers on a beer budget and they don’t mind admitting it. That’s bad. Very bad. That they’re starting to talk openly about it, amid such vast profits. If you join your joining a firm that’s making a fortune where terms are on a down slope. They’re not worried. Post bag’s full apparantly. And I think they’re telling the truth to be fair. It really will come down to personal choice.
I hope the union better will not suggest giving anything up for the “pay rise?. If anything I’d rather they treat lifestyle as a priority, like air. It’s up against the ropes as is. No concessions please.
looks like I picked the wrong year to quit sniffing glue.
Limit the line hoarding of the newly created high credit 3 day LAXs etc with limits (sold to the workers as being of benefit to juniors). Then they’re sprinkled about the demographic forcing most rosters to contain more plentiful low credit items. Any day at home benefits nicely put up in smoke, Man hours utilisation achieved. Just one way [camera shows white cat now purring and weird kinky gloved hand reaches for the brandy glass]
BA. Can be a fantastic place to work. Don’t forget that those looking in. It’s not entire gloom. No one saying that. But the blacks are swamping the whites now. So the positives are holding less and less currency with each change. Especially if you’re junior trash like a lot of us. Such a shame. It’s increasingly draining. Often intimidating, not unfair to say almost Stasi-esque through its own actions sometimes (surveil your workers travel on personal time anyone?) and sometimes the comms read a little like a mafioso internal newsletter from the capos.
They now want champagne workers on a beer budget and they don’t mind admitting it. That’s bad. Very bad. That they’re starting to talk openly about it, amid such vast profits. If you join your joining a firm that’s making a fortune where terms are on a down slope. They’re not worried. Post bag’s full apparantly. And I think they’re telling the truth to be fair. It really will come down to personal choice.
I hope the union better will not suggest giving anything up for the “pay rise?. If anything I’d rather they treat lifestyle as a priority, like air. It’s up against the ropes as is. No concessions please.
looks like I picked the wrong year to quit sniffing glue.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: London
If the 24h LH stopovers becomes a reality I’ll leave the company. Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs is a grim existence (granted not as grim as current situation SH 12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane and repeat) and not why I joined BA. I get the argument that a couple of days downroute somewhere nice gets ordinary after a while but the alternative would grant me zero job satisfaction. For a £2b profit company why can’t they just accept some hotel bills, look after crews wellbeing by a less fatiguing/more sensible roster by hiring adequate pilot numbers rather than just some well-being posters up in CRC. Another lb of flesh. That ‘recognition’ gala video nonsense that appeared in my inbox was vomit inducing, management seem to think if they just use the word ‘recognition’ in every other sentence that they are reacting to that ‘reality check’ employee survey.
It it could be a good place to work but the company is just out to squeeze everything from their employees. That’s the feeling I have as a ‘generation Cruz’ DEP after just 2.5yrs. Part time is the only way to survive a career here with your sanity and health. Sad as it just doesn’t have to be this way, a few tweaks and we could be the envy of every other airlines’ pilot workforce, as it stands BA is a cold, greedy and hideously corporate beast.
It it could be a good place to work but the company is just out to squeeze everything from their employees. That’s the feeling I have as a ‘generation Cruz’ DEP after just 2.5yrs. Part time is the only way to survive a career here with your sanity and health. Sad as it just doesn’t have to be this way, a few tweaks and we could be the envy of every other airlines’ pilot workforce, as it stands BA is a cold, greedy and hideously corporate beast.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 724
Likes: 24
From: UK
It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.
It’s pretty obvious “Santa Klaus” is coming for LH, and we have a pay claim in progress, so watch this space.
I agree with the comments above though, BA really isn’t all that bad. There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 619
Likes: 37
From: Home Counties
Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs
You arrive at your hotel having been on duty for 12 hours, awake for 15 and you are tired. Do you go to sleep for 8-9 hours and then fail to get any more rest for the 15-16 hours before your next 12 hours duty .... its difficult to manage and impacts on safety as you approach the highest work load period at the end of your next 12 hours strapped in to a jet.
12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane
Best of luck in the ensuing negotiations
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: London
RightRudder - agree DEP on A350 is awesome on paper, but bottom of the list, jss, and possibly a few hours downroute in (near?) future, max legal hrs, min legal rest, might get tiresome pretty quickly or just impossible to sustain a happy family/social/healthy lifestyle. I have no answers though, just bored/fed up on airport standby and opened up ppprune for first time in years. It’s probably not that bad...but fatigue makes everything worse and I’ve been feeling it for too long.
Last edited by Paperplanes89; 8th December 2018 at 07:56.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: England
All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 995
Likes: 103
From: Botswana
I’m sorry but the “Master Seniority List is the most important thing, you’ll slot in ahead of them when you move” argument just doesn’t wash any more. When exactly are we going to get to move? I wanted to do Long Haul whilst I was relatively young. That sure ain’t gonna happen any more.
Every Long Haul DEP (and there’s going to be a load of them this year by all accounts) removes a LH position that would have been available in one or two years. When guys ahead of us on the P2 Airbus status list can’t move across to Long Haul we stagnate behind them and can’t benefit from better rosters/bidding power etc. Long Haul DEP disadvantages everyone on the Airbus and I for one (and I’m not the only one by any stretch) resent it massively.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: UK
Surely with every aspect of the business under fire is it not time for the union to grow some balls and balance the power out a little? If you bow down and let them rear end you then you've only got yourselves to blame? Time for LH/SH/senior/junior to surely come together and make a stand. The "I'm alright Jack" issues at the top of the list has to be put to one side because everyone will have the sharks after their t&cs at some point in the future, the top needs the bottom's help and the bottom needs the top's help. Get with it before it's too late.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
Rex, don’t worry, when you do eventually get to long haul, you’ll realise all these years of thinking long haul is easy and it’s only short haul taking the pain, was actually completely wrong and you’ll wonder why on Earth you’ve given all of these years to BA just to end up feeling fatigued and worthless, with no useful time at home and no useful time downroute.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 954
Likes: 64
From: england
Rexbanner ...I see where you’re coming from. You will merely join the masses of pilots ahead of you that have trodden the same path of resentment and disappointment in BA. As previously mentioned, this could be the best job in aviation if only it was run properly. I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA reps and the pilot workforce share the blame. Many of the changes don’t really affect reps that only fly once or twice a month, and the majority of pilots seem to be grateful to BA that they have a job and are unwilling to stick their necks out for anything. Lots of complaining but no action.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA share the blame
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: Button Moon
BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BA’s expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACC’s responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.
I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
From: united kingdom
Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.
I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
You can’t just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I don’t think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. That’s unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, we’d be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
From: Button Moon
You can’t just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I don’t think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. That’s unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, we’d be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
Drastic action is required and it's not a case of being agressive towards BA. It's simply a matter of unifying the workforce. I agree it's hopeful to think such a thing could happen but in my humble opinion it's what's required. Until we're more unified the company will continue to pick us off one by one and the Me Me / I'm alright Jack's play right into their hands.
Just to add, this tactic isn't unique to BA. They just do it better than most.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 74
From: UK
We need BALPA educating the community as to why supporting a cause which does not directly effect the individual is vital for the long term bigger picture of said individual. The problem is, that would bring us closer to strike action, and BALPA are scared stiff to find themselves in a battle with BA/IAG after what happened with openskies. It suits them to maintain the current status quo, and just watch our terms and conditions dwindle whilst keeping us under control for the company. That way they get a nice revenue stream with not too much hassle or risk. Our current union needs to be replaced with one that actually has a backbone.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 0
From: UK
All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
Yes there are some airlines out there with FRMS systems which are now mature and have been around for some time. Up until recently there was a well known quote "there is no fatigue at BA" - might have to get through the "yee who has the last laugh" before things move in the right direction for both BA and its crews.
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 780
Likes: 10
From: Doctor's waiting room
I suspect if you asked a senior long haul FO what they had in common with a new FO at LGW, I suspect it might be easier for the list of differences to be highlighted rather than what they have in common within the context of their job. One doesn't need to look too far to see how there are numerous aspects of flying for BA that can create differences between colleagues. LHR vs LGW, Shorthaul vs Longhaul, Carmen vs Bidline (in a historical context of course) and BARP vs NAPS and that is coming from someone who doesn't work for the company, so I suspect more could be added to the list!! The more differences amongst colleagues, then the more challenging it has to be to create any solidarity in the workplace.
Reading some of the previous posts reminds me of an ex BA skipper who stepped into a Flight Ops management position at my last company after he retired. It was rather irksome to see how reluctant he was to engage with management and to address any issues that were passed up the food chain. After a few beverages down route one night, one of the cabin crew actually took him to task over his reluctance to communicate and help create change where it was needed. He admitted he had no desire to 'rock the boat' unless he himself was going to benefit as well. A carry-over from his BA days perhaps?
As I said earlier, I am not at BA but I do have a few friends still there, so I do read this thread from time to time out of interest. I left the UK to become an ex-pat aviator before EASA FTLs were brought in, so my knowledge of them is rather scant, to say the least. Regardless of that, any manager worth their salt will use their FTL framework as a guideline for enhancing crew productivity and I have seen this where I am now. It seems that no airline in IAG appears to be immune from this nowadays either. If 24 hours down route in the US west coast is legal, then it's a case of when rather than if it ever happens before your management consider tweaking with your rosters. Having crews away from home base longer than needed, seems to be a bête noire for management in any airline and it is a very easy way for them to reduce operating costs.
Some of you seem to have suggested that change will be forthcoming for trips that are changed to include shorter layovers, once a paper trail has started involving safety and fatigue reporting. I can assure you from first-hand experience that it is nothing short of a gargantuan task to revert roster practices, back to a level that reduces crew productivity. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.
From reading this thread it would seem that some BA aviators here, seem to have lost hope in your CC as well but this has to be your last line of defence against unfavourable change. If enough of you are disillusioned about your CC as some of the posters on this thread appear to be, then what would the outcome of a petition of 'No Confidence' in your CC be?
Good Luck and I shall be watching from the sidelines!
Reading some of the previous posts reminds me of an ex BA skipper who stepped into a Flight Ops management position at my last company after he retired. It was rather irksome to see how reluctant he was to engage with management and to address any issues that were passed up the food chain. After a few beverages down route one night, one of the cabin crew actually took him to task over his reluctance to communicate and help create change where it was needed. He admitted he had no desire to 'rock the boat' unless he himself was going to benefit as well. A carry-over from his BA days perhaps?
As I said earlier, I am not at BA but I do have a few friends still there, so I do read this thread from time to time out of interest. I left the UK to become an ex-pat aviator before EASA FTLs were brought in, so my knowledge of them is rather scant, to say the least. Regardless of that, any manager worth their salt will use their FTL framework as a guideline for enhancing crew productivity and I have seen this where I am now. It seems that no airline in IAG appears to be immune from this nowadays either. If 24 hours down route in the US west coast is legal, then it's a case of when rather than if it ever happens before your management consider tweaking with your rosters. Having crews away from home base longer than needed, seems to be a bête noire for management in any airline and it is a very easy way for them to reduce operating costs.
Some of you seem to have suggested that change will be forthcoming for trips that are changed to include shorter layovers, once a paper trail has started involving safety and fatigue reporting. I can assure you from first-hand experience that it is nothing short of a gargantuan task to revert roster practices, back to a level that reduces crew productivity. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.
From reading this thread it would seem that some BA aviators here, seem to have lost hope in your CC as well but this has to be your last line of defence against unfavourable change. If enough of you are disillusioned about your CC as some of the posters on this thread appear to be, then what would the outcome of a petition of 'No Confidence' in your CC be?
Good Luck and I shall be watching from the sidelines!
