BA Direct Entry Pilot.
I know the last individual I came into contact with (quite recently FWIW) who did that sort of commute with BA was very very diligent in making sure he was compliant with EASA/BA regs. Must have been darned tough on his home life but horses for courses I guess, plus a prt time contract.
Of course mixed fleet cabin crew combine short haul flying with operating the SIN/SYD/SIN 9 day trip, so whilst to/from Oz plus shorthaul sounds outlandish the company roster something along those lines... but you’ve obviously got to stick to the rules.
Of course mixed fleet cabin crew combine short haul flying with operating the SIN/SYD/SIN 9 day trip, so whilst to/from Oz plus shorthaul sounds outlandish the company roster something along those lines... but you’ve obviously got to stick to the rules.
Last edited by wiggy; 4th Dec 2018 at 13:37.
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Some Pilots think they can get away with it because BA can’t really police it
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But we’ve had this conversation before.
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Rex
Certainly very few long haul pilots can claim to have had 8 hours rest immediately prior to flying home. For example, on West coast USA trips, most people wake at about 3am or 4am local time, before reporting for the flight home somewhere between 3pm and 8pm local time. If they are lucky, they may have achieved 2 or 3 hours of sleep just prior to their wake up call.
However, I believe the rules require fully rested and acclimatised at time of report at base. To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable, because the rules are designed to take account of the lower likelihood of decent rest whilst in the different time zone. BA are probably cracking down on this because they are slowly recognising faitigue is becoming a serious issue, and they want to make sure they are fully covered in that court room should that fatigue related incident occur.
Certainly very few long haul pilots can claim to have had 8 hours rest immediately prior to flying home. For example, on West coast USA trips, most people wake at about 3am or 4am local time, before reporting for the flight home somewhere between 3pm and 8pm local time. If they are lucky, they may have achieved 2 or 3 hours of sleep just prior to their wake up call.
However, I believe the rules require fully rested and acclimatised at time of report at base. To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable, because the rules are designed to take account of the lower likelihood of decent rest whilst in the different time zone. BA are probably cracking down on this because they are slowly recognising faitigue is becoming a serious issue, and they want to make sure they are fully covered in that court room should that fatigue related incident occur.
Probably a bit of both.....
As GS has said they want to make sure they have their ducks in a row if there is a fatigue related incident.
There might well be gains in efficiency if it is known that management proactively “manage” / investigate the background to fatigue reports.
As GS has said they want to make sure they have their ducks in a row if there is a fatigue related incident.
There might well be gains in efficiency if it is known that management proactively “manage” / investigate the background to fatigue reports.
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I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.
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That’s not my argument. I’m just pointing out that BA and the regulator are holding you to standards that they themselves do not abide by. To state, as EASA do, that you are acclimatised if you go east by two time zones so you ought to be able to manage to get the same amount of rest/sleep as a result of that state of “acclimatisation” is clearly bullsh1t and can be demonstrably shown to be so. They’re setting you up to operate in an unrested state because nobody can skip forward two hours and get to sleep at the required time because your body hasn’t adjusted to that, same as it hasn’t adjusted when the alarm wakes you up at 03AM (5 o clock local) the next day. For the regulator to put so much emphasis on rest but at the same time you can effectively lose two hours of sleep and yet that’s not a problem, well that’s having your cake and eating it, it’s not science and there’s so many holes in it that it’s ripe for challenge.
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Jumbo2. The rostering has and continues to get worse. The market has changed and the pay at BA has been left behind. Both of those changed since I took command.
Sometimes you you need to try something to really understand it. Command achieved, got the stripes and it really is not worth it. The pay could be doubled and it still would not be worth it. The rostering is really really hard. A few of us will certainly be taking a stripe off to go RHS LH.
May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?
Sometimes you you need to try something to really understand it. Command achieved, got the stripes and it really is not worth it. The pay could be doubled and it still would not be worth it. The rostering is really really hard. A few of us will certainly be taking a stripe off to go RHS LH.
May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?
Thread drift, but,
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!
Last edited by cessnapete; 4th Dec 2018 at 20:15.
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of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?
I know you had been more then 5 years in BA when you went to the left but listening to junior FO's who are less then 2 years in, getting a command and then start complaining about the pay and lifestyle are beyond me and I really struggle to have any empathy for them. As a junior FO going for command (less then 5-8 years in) you might make 400 ponds more a month (because of less efficient lines) but you will get all the leftovers on your roster with plenty of TASS (BA has got the most transparent rostering system I've seen in any airline so it is easy to see what rosters junior P1's are getting). If they don't realise this before going for their command then they haven't done their homework or where foolishly blinded by the P1 status. The pay structure in BA hasn't changed (I'm pretty sure if you take the average pay of all SH P1's and compare that to other UK operators it isn't that far off) and neither did the rostering policy change in the last few years (until JSS now but we only know in 7 days how that is working out).
So with all the information available before one decides to bid for a command (nobody is forcing you to bid for a command anyway) there is no point of complaining about the T&C's afterwards is there?
I know you had been more then 5 years in BA when you went to the left but listening to junior FO's who are less then 2 years in, getting a command and then start complaining about the pay and lifestyle are beyond me and I really struggle to have any empathy for them. As a junior FO going for command (less then 5-8 years in) you might make 400 ponds more a month (because of less efficient lines) but you will get all the leftovers on your roster with plenty of TASS (BA has got the most transparent rostering system I've seen in any airline so it is easy to see what rosters junior P1's are getting). If they don't realise this before going for their command then they haven't done their homework or where foolishly blinded by the P1 status. The pay structure in BA hasn't changed (I'm pretty sure if you take the average pay of all SH P1's and compare that to other UK operators it isn't that far off) and neither did the rostering policy change in the last few years (until JSS now but we only know in 7 days how that is working out).
So with all the information available before one decides to bid for a command (nobody is forcing you to bid for a command anyway) there is no point of complaining about the T&C's afterwards is there?
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We have to work until 75 now?! Please no....
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Jumbo2. Fair point about super junior commands after 2 years.
At 25% I guess you have been in about 5 years. The rostering has changed to EASA FTL’s and there have been a number of changes to bidline rules. That all makes a big difference but the crux of it has been we have been short of numbers. The pay issue is one which has come about because of the improvements in terms elsewhere in the industry. Rostering has always been bad when junior on any status but even guys who have seniority are working some pretty brutal lines.
The problem is very few people are even prepared to bid for a command. I admire the fact that you can make that choice. It seems daft that we have experienced guys like yourself who won’t take a command yet we need to delay courses of some guys so they have the minimum hours.
Easy fix, and yes it will never happen. Seniority as a FO based on DOJ. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command check. It’s the RYR way. And no it’s not a serious proposal so let’s not get into that.
Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more.
Yes there are reasons I have not left and options at BA is one of them.
Fruitbat
At 25% I guess you have been in about 5 years. The rostering has changed to EASA FTL’s and there have been a number of changes to bidline rules. That all makes a big difference but the crux of it has been we have been short of numbers. The pay issue is one which has come about because of the improvements in terms elsewhere in the industry. Rostering has always been bad when junior on any status but even guys who have seniority are working some pretty brutal lines.
The problem is very few people are even prepared to bid for a command. I admire the fact that you can make that choice. It seems daft that we have experienced guys like yourself who won’t take a command yet we need to delay courses of some guys so they have the minimum hours.
Easy fix, and yes it will never happen. Seniority as a FO based on DOJ. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command check. It’s the RYR way. And no it’s not a serious proposal so let’s not get into that.
Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more.
Yes there are reasons I have not left and options at BA is one of them.
Fruitbat
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Why did you go for the command when you did?
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.
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Thread drift, but,
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!
B
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One thing to possibly contemplate about delaying your command to protect your current lifestyle is that sooner or later it’s inevitable that procedures/technology will be in place to remove the heavy crew on the longer LH sectors. That’s the direction we’re going in I’m afraid. In the First Officer redundancy phase that will inevitably follow the seniority list will not protect you whilst you slot into a LHS ahead of someone more “junior” to you A) because the cost to the company will be unacceptable and B) because it’s flat out illegal. Food for thought.
How’s that for black cloud thinking, WonderBus? NUTA’d the **** out of that one, didn’t I? ;-)
How’s that for black cloud thinking, WonderBus? NUTA’d the **** out of that one, didn’t I? ;-)
Last edited by RexBanner; 5th Dec 2018 at 06:48.
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I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade? The pilot numbers currently required, both within the company and globally, mean the risk of redundancies is minimal, even with a significant global downturn. There will at some point be a bit of pressure on more senior pilots to take their commands, simply so they can get their NAPS pensions uplifted before the end of the transition period, but the end of 2023 is still a fair way off yet.
