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Old 5th Dec 2018, 13:43
  #5421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade.
Airbus are already working on this technology. Correct me
if I’m wrong but I believe that the A350 is already capable of a fully autonomous emergency descent. Of course if there’s the technology available think of the amount of pilots BA will be in surplus on the LH fleets. We’ve seen Alex Cruz attempt to outsource everything that moves and put all the ground station staff in the USA at risk, do you really think BA are going to keep a surplus amount of pilots in work that are not needed purely out of goodwill?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 13:57
  #5422 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
It will require a change of EASA FTLs.

That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe.

I wouldnt strike for much, but a reduction in safety standards to this gross level, suggested above, would be one reason I would back a strike, for the simple reason that it would be european companies that receive cost benefit, with significant ímpact on risk to our passengers.

I think the corporate world realizes this, which is why there will be no debate about it happening, no lobbying for a change and therefore no change.
VinRouge is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 14:25
  #5423 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
It will require a change of EASA FTLs.

That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe.
Just like EASA FTL’s were to begin with?
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 15:11
  #5424 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


Just like EASA FTL’s were to begin with?
So where is your supposed NPA? Or is this just scaremongering?

The new FTLs were required to harmonise fatigue regs across Europe and were broadly similar to CAP371. IIagree though that they were a derugulation and a move in the wrong direction. The suggestion that augmented rest is simply binned off is not going to happen as it's used globally by even the likes of the GCAA.

There are too many examples of why sustained single pilot cruise ops is an utterly awful idea for it to change.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 15:51
  #5425 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 684
You’ve got to get this technology approved. Then you’ve got to actually get those aircraft into the airlines. A company is not going to just replace its entire fleet overnight. The fuel savings of modern jets are massive compared to the savings you are speaking of, and yet we didn’t immediately bin the 747 overnight. BA pilots are unlikely to have to worry about your scenario for at least another decade or two. It certainly isn’t making me think I need to rush out and get my command before I get made redundant.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 16:27
  #5426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 470
Anyone read the special feature in Flight OPS news with KG?

interesting read. Some points I picked out
* We need to have a adult conversation
* Some bidline rules are no longer relevant
* More hours in a day but fewer days at work, achieved by SH one crew doing 10 hour days with fixed links. LH replacing 48 Hr slips with 24 hr ones.
* LH are rewarded slightly above market rate
* SH are market rate. But then says we are not way off, we need to look at the blended market rate.
* As a workforce we are demotivated
* No reason why BA pilots won’t fly LEVEL aircraft. Same model as Air Canada and Rouge.

Take it as you will but it sounds like any pay deal will be attached to more efficiencies and sacrifice of bidline rules. I like the sound of some of it but I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home.

Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure.
bex88 is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:01
  #5427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post

Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure.

AI /neural network technology, read true machine learning, is completely 180 out on how a manufacturer demonstrates to a regulator that they are compliant with certification specs. How.do you demonstrate compliance with loss models for example when as soon as you get past single point of failure? There are literally millions of combinations of system failure at this step. So that means your MEL dispensation makes your aircraft uncertifiable as you are unsure of how the system can respond. And if it will respond in the same way. We may see cargo go single pilot ops in our lifetime, but you then still have the issue that airworthiness includes considering those that you fly over, as well as those on the air system.

Your insurance premiums will be a lot higher than the cost of that second pilots salary and pension methinks.

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Old 5th Dec 2018, 17:07
  #5428 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,858
Bex...

Thanks for the heads up..just had a look.....in a desperate attempt to keep within one intent of this thread (info for prospective new joiners) it looks like if Klaus has his way they may be able to enjoy LAX night-stops (thinks “legacy agreements” and the age old question of why Seattle isn’t on the West Coast .....maybe some day soon it will be...)

I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home.
.....

You are probably right, the company aren’t going to sit back and let bigger gaps on rosters go to waste....
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 20:16
  #5429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Just read it. I love the way he’s spinning a 24h nightstop in LAX as being for our benefit, not the company’s. My God the guy is absolutely deluded if he thinks we can’t see straight through that.
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Old 5th Dec 2018, 21:31
  #5430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Dirty South
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Just read it. I love the way he’s spinning a 24h nightstop in LAX as being for our benefit, not the company’s. My God the guy is absolutely deluded if he thinks we can’t see straight through that.
You have no idea how bad this can get. The goal is for BA to look and feel like a Legacy first class carrier to the public, with pilots compensated at the low end of low cost carrier rates. Think about what ‘blended market rates’ means - pick the worst compensated A320 carriers in Europe and then blend their Terms and Conditions. Perhaps throw Norwegians 787 rates into a compensation comparison for LH. Then outsourcing and dividing groups (long haul/short haul, pensions, Level etc.) to the furthest extent possible.

In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his.

This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip.

To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 05:57
  #5431 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by student88 View Post
Fake news - not true.
Apart from the 744, care to elaborate on which fleet that’s not the case?

Last edited by DuctOvht; 6th Dec 2018 at 06:36.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 06:32
  #5432 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,858
Originally Posted by DuctOvht View Post
I think it’s fleet specific but on my fleet it most certainly is true.
It is...I can”t speak directly for the 78 but I suspect at BA now the 744 is the only fleet exempt from the “autothrust/throttle required in “manual flight” rule.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 06:39
  #5433 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


It is...I can”t speak directly for the 78 but I suspect at BA now the 744 is the only fleet exempt from the “autothrust/throttle required in “manual flight” rule.
Sorry Wiggy, I edited my post. I can confirm the 787 is very much autothrottle only.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 07:23
  #5434 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by DuctOvht View Post


Sorry Wiggy, I edited my post. I can confirm the 787 is very much autothrottle only.
As is the 777. Having come from the 76 where it was routine to disconnect the A/T on approach, it’s taken a a bit of time to adapt to my left thumb doing nothing at the appropriate time.
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:05
  #5435 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by JPJP View Post


You have no idea how bad this can get. The goal is for BA to look and feel like a Legacy first class carrier to the public, with pilots compensated at the low end of low cost carrier rates. Think about what ‘blended market rates’ means - pick the worst compensated A320 carriers in Europe and then blend their Terms and Conditions. Perhaps throw Norwegians 787 rates into a compensation comparison for LH. Then outsourcing and dividing groups (long haul/short haul, pensions, Level etc.) to the furthest extent possible.

In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his.

This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip.

To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would.

This is exactly what i named earlier. BA is a legacy, and as they say themselves, with highest standards, a best in class airline, and require the best in class pilots (BA is proud to tell that only 5%-10% of the DEP applicants gets into BA). Then they should not measure their pilots with with the average. But should compare themselves with the other EUROPE legacies, having the same requirements as BA. So: Air France- KLM and Lufthansa (Lufthansa got +10% pay rise in the new CLA). And not with Eurowings, Thompson, Norwegian, Wizz, Flybe. You cannot compare even, because Eurowings, and Norwegian have fast upgrades to CPT LH. Which is not so much the case at the legacies.
pilotting is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:35
  #5436 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
If Klaus gets his way and we start slipping for 24h in destinations like LAX with a 10+ flight time I will be taking an early command and be out the door the moment I get 1000h PIC.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:40
  #5437 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: England
Posts: 102
Does anyone find that there's much operational seasonality at BA?

i.e Can you expect your roster to quieten down/surviving standby's towards the winter time or is it pretty much full-on all year round?
GetTheQRH is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:55
  #5438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 39
Posts: 470
LGW = quieter winters
LHR = generally busy all year round. It does slacken a little in the winter but not much. Usually we go from chronically short of crew to just short of crew. If the numbers were right then yes you could expect it to be a little easier. It is nothing like the change you see in charter ops though.
bex88 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 13:21
  #5439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,858
I'd agree with bex regarding LHR longhaul.

A big chunk of the passengers are on Business travel, which isn't that seasonal, a lot of flights are too/from the southern hemisphere so different holidays, different seasons come onto play, plus what might have been regarded as off season once upon a time is now when those with flexibility try and travel in the hope of cheaper fares.

End result is any monthly variability you do notice won't be a lot and tends to be down manpower fluctuations on fleets and the odd outlier like engine issues taking work from one fleet and lumping it on other.

Last edited by wiggy; 6th Dec 2018 at 15:36.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 18:48
  #5440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Just read KG's Special Feature..... wish I'd read it before dinner, nearly threw up on the patronising corporate cheese.

The next battle lines are just starting to make themselves known....more efficiency, squeeze that lemon even harder!

As he seems so keen to give us more time at home at the expense of our our downtime down route I wonder if KG will commit to more days free of duty per annum or a maximum number of trips per month to avoid these new hotel savings and reduced days away being turned into MORE trips on our lines. I think I already know the answer to that.

Surely he knows we can all see through this? Generally a positive chap but I didn't sign up for all this tbh. It's worse than the low cost operator I joined from!
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