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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 7th Dec 2018, 16:07
  #5501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
I agree Wiggy. BA will be aiming to employ the efficiencies of the mixed fleet model. They cannot give us short haul and long haul, but they can ensure we get a mixture low credit 3 day trips and high credit 3 day trips so we are all up at 900 hours, but not before the end of the year for some and unattainable for others (as currently happens).
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 16:40
  #5502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 301
Wiggy just described verbatim what happened with us at Cathay years ago one of the many times they pulled the wool over our eyes.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 17:13
  #5503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 703
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder View Post
Very few BA pilots want a SH only existence.
If Klaus gets his wish and LH destinations become nightstops then Long Haul may as well be Short Haul. If you’re not getting to see and enjoy the destinations (and it’s going to be a really difficult ask as Wiggy has already alluded to with the time available) then what’s the point in being a Long Haul pilot? It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 21:08
  #5504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 288
Bumped into a BALPA rep today. I hope I wasnít being fobbed off but KGís shopping list is being viewed as utter tosh apparently.

Lets see. KG is picking a very big fight with a huge portion of the workforce and with lots of very senior people all at the same time.

Frankly Iím not sure I can carry on with this lot if this gets through. As Iíve already said, I didnít sign up for this s***.

Time will tell.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 21:38
  #5505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Happened at my previous too. Layovers reduced. Iíve always said JSS is only the first step of the grand plan [camera draws away to show white cat being stroked on a leather armchair] . JSS well placed to exploit holes in bidline rules which were specifically written with a sister system in mind. That system gone, tweaks to BLR already been happening for ages.

Limit the line hoarding of the newly created high credit 3 day LAXs etc with limits (sold to the workers as being of benefit to juniors). Then theyíre sprinkled about the demographic forcing most rosters to contain more plentiful low credit items. Any day at home benefits nicely put up in smoke, Man hours utilisation achieved. Just one way [camera shows white cat now purring and weird kinky gloved hand reaches for the brandy glass]

BA. Can be a fantastic place to work. Donít forget that those looking in. Itís not entire gloom. No one saying that. But the blacks are swamping the whites now. So the positives are holding less and less currency with each change. Especially if youíre junior trash like a lot of us. Such a shame. Itís increasingly draining. Often intimidating, not unfair to say almost Stasi-esque through its own actions sometimes (surveil your workers travel on personal time anyone?) and sometimes the comms read a little like a mafioso internal newsletter from the capos.

They now want champagne workers on a beer budget and they donít mind admitting it. Thatís bad. Very bad. That theyíre starting to talk openly about it, amid such vast profits. If you join your joining a firm thatís making a fortune where terms are on a down slope. Theyíre not worried. Post bagís full apparantly. And I think theyíre telling the truth to be fair. It really will come down to personal choice.

I hope the union better will not suggest giving anything up for the ďpay rise?. If anything Iíd rather they treat lifestyle as a priority, like air. Itís up against the ropes as is. No concessions please.


looks like I picked the wrong year to quit sniffing glue.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:29
  #5506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 29
Posts: 37
If the 24h LH stopovers becomes a reality I’ll leave the company. Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs is a grim existence (granted not as grim as current situation SH 12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane and repeat) and not why I joined BA. I get the argument that a couple of days downroute somewhere nice gets ordinary after a while but the alternative would grant me zero job satisfaction. For a £2b profit company why can’t they just accept some hotel bills, look after crews wellbeing by a less fatiguing/more sensible roster by hiring adequate pilot numbers rather than just some well-being posters up in CRC. Another lb of flesh. That ‘recognition’ gala video nonsense that appeared in my inbox was vomit inducing, management seem to think if they just use the word ‘recognition’ in every other sentence that they are reacting to that ‘reality check’ employee survey.

It it could be a good place to work but the company is just out to squeeze everything from their employees. That’s the feeling I have as a ‘generation Cruz’ DEP after just 2.5yrs. Part time is the only way to survive a career here with your sanity and health. Sad as it just doesn’t have to be this way, a few tweaks and we could be the envy of every other airlines’ pilot workforce, as it stands BA is a cold, greedy and hideously corporate beast.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:30
  #5507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 698
It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.
I can’t argue with any of that, I just don’t see the alternative employer out there who will attract droves of BA pilots. Our T&Cs will be under attack until the supply/demand ratio tips in our favour. BA need 300+ pilots next year according to the manpower boffins - they will have more than enough pilots applying for those positions. That’s our problem. It’s very difficult to enact meaningful (positive) changes to our working agreements under these circumstances.

It’s pretty obvious “Santa Klaus” is coming for LH, and we have a pay claim in progress, so watch this space.

I agree with the comments above though, BA really isn’t all that bad. There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:34
  #5508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 41
Posts: 476
Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs
We do a variety of ops in business aviation and the above is the most tiring.

You arrive at your hotel having been on duty for 12 hours, awake for 15 and you are tired. Do you go to sleep for 8-9 hours and then fail to get any more rest for the 15-16 hours before your next 12 hours duty .... its difficult to manage and impacts on safety as you approach the highest work load period at the end of your next 12 hours strapped in to a jet.

12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane
This is actually easier (although much less fun), you get to the hotel, eat dinner, go to sleep, get up, eat breakfast and report for duty ... at least this is safer but very boring and not the shiny dream of working in a legacy.

Best of luck in the ensuing negotiations
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:39
  #5509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 60
BA will always get enough pilots applying.
When I went through stage 2 there were 12 of us in the morning and another 12 joined the afternoon (RAF,EZY,CX,RYR etc etc). That was just 1 day. Obviously not all will get through but the numbers are available.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:39
  #5510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 29
Posts: 37
RightRudder - agree DEP on A350 is awesome on paper, but bottom of the list, jss, and possibly a few hours downroute in (near?) future, max legal hrs, min legal rest, might get tiresome pretty quickly or just impossible to sustain a happy family/social/healthy lifestyle. I have no answers though, just bored/fed up on airport standby and opened up ppprune for first time in years. It’s probably not that bad...but fatigue makes everything worse and I’ve been feeling it for too long.

Last edited by Paperplanes89; 8th Dec 2018 at 07:56.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 08:19
  #5511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: England
Posts: 72
All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:36
  #5512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 703
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder View Post
There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.
Which is absolutely disgusting in my opinion. The company are seriously trying to tell us thereís not enough internal bidders? I know thereís a lot of people still frozen but a lot of those guys have done four years slogging it out on Short Haul maybe it might be the right time to reward them for that? No itís time to slap them in the face yet again with more Long Haul DEP. Letís face it virtually nobody joins this company because they want to do Short Haul, itís the big selling point of BA and why the vast majority of us are here.

Iím sorry but the ďMaster Seniority List is the most important thing, youíll slot in ahead of them when you moveĒ argument just doesnít wash any more. When exactly are we going to get to move? I wanted to do Long Haul whilst I was relatively young. That sure ainít gonna happen any more.

Every Long Haul DEP (and thereís going to be a load of them this year by all accounts) removes a LH position that would have been available in one or two years. When guys ahead of us on the P2 Airbus status list canít move across to Long Haul we stagnate behind them and canít benefit from better rosters/bidding power etc. Long Haul DEP disadvantages everyone on the Airbus and I for one (and Iím not the only one by any stretch) resent it massively.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:46
  #5513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 267
Surely with every aspect of the business under fire is it not time for the union to grow some balls and balance the power out a little? If you bow down and let them rear end you then you've only got yourselves to blame? Time for LH/SH/senior/junior to surely come together and make a stand. The "I'm alright Jack" issues at the top of the list has to be put to one side because everyone will have the sharks after their t&cs at some point in the future, the top needs the bottom's help and the bottom needs the top's help. Get with it before it's too late.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:47
  #5514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
Rex, donít worry, when you do eventually get to long haul, youíll realise all these years of thinking long haul is easy and itís only short haul taking the pain, was actually completely wrong and youíll wonder why on Earth youíve given all of these years to BA just to end up feeling fatigued and worthless, with no useful time at home and no useful time downroute.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:49
  #5515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 627
Rexbanner ​​​​​​...I see where you’re coming from. You will merely join the masses of pilots ahead of you that have trodden the same path of resentment and disappointment in BA. As previously mentioned, this could be the best job in aviation if only it was run properly. I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA reps and the pilot workforce share the blame. Many of the changes don’t really affect reps that only fly once or twice a month, and the majority of pilots seem to be grateful to BA that they have a job and are unwilling to stick their necks out for anything. Lots of complaining but no action.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:05
  #5516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA share the blame
BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BA’s expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACC’s responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:55
  #5517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BAís expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACCís responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.
Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 11:13
  #5518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds View Post
Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
it will never happen because for Many ba pilots ď itís all about meĒ
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 11:32
  #5519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 559
You canít just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I donít think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. Thatís unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, weíd be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 12:47
  #5520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
You canít just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I donít think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. Thatís unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, weíd be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
I had a conversation with a colleague at work while the pension stuff was ongoing. It was clear he really wasn't happy and I said we need to all stand together so would support his camp ie NAPS members and vote for industrial action if the time came and those affected felt it necessary. In almost the same sentence his reply was "well don't expect me to go on strike for BARP"....lovely!

Drastic action is required and it's not a case of being agressive towards BA. It's simply a matter of unifying the workforce. I agree it's hopeful to think such a thing could happen but in my humble opinion it's what's required. Until we're more unified the company will continue to pick us off one by one and the Me Me / I'm alright Jack's play right into their hands.

Just to add, this tactic isn't unique to BA. They just do it better than most.
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